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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 10:45 AM
Original message
Maybe Dean Is Too Conservative...
Conservative

Capital punishment.
State gun laws.
Fiscal conservatism. Balanced budgets. (kind of common sense though)



Liberal

Civil unions.
Drug patent reform.
UHC.
Head start.
Success by six.
Pro-choice.
Repeal Booooosh tax cuts.
Affordable housing.
Lead abatement.
Community development.
EPA-cabinet status.
Pro Kyoto.
Renewable energy.
Property tax exemptions for Veterans.
IRV.
Pro- Innocence Protection Act (Leahy)
Right-to-vote (felons)
Pro- Conservation Security Program (Harkin)
Card check.
Overtime pay.
Anti- Captive Audience.
Global warming.
Pro- CAFE standards.
etc..

Or maybe not.



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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not Bush. Just Bush-Lite.
<>
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Someone needs to Paintshop that photo
Change the "BEER" to "BUSH".

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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hahahaha...
Wait....you are thinking in more then one dimension....my brain is locking up.....can't think...must reduce to simple formula....jkgv;iwgfvb;wwivbn'im

gak!!!

:argh:
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. Great post man!
:toast: Go Dean!
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
5. He is neither conservative nor liberal
He is a moderate.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Not that I disagree,
but would you mind making the distinction for me. In your opinion.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It says it on Dean's website
"A common-sense moderate who firmly believes that social justice can only be accomplished through strong financial management, Governor Dean has cut the income tax twice, removed the sales tax on most clothing, and reduced the state's long-term debt. Not only did the governor pay off an inherited $70 million deficit, he worked with lawmakers to build "rainy day" reserves to help the state through any future economic downturn."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=about_biography
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Goldilocks
Some people say he is too liberal, others say he is too conservative, I say he is just right.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Peacenik Program Slasher?
That would be the "glass half empty" version.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. I reaaly love your tagline
it is very funny, I hope you like my signature
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. As a Huskies fan, I resent that tagline! Try this.


:-)
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I really can't wait till Pac-10 Football Season
it is the most enjoyable to watch imo. Alot of passing yards and recieving yards in this conference. Andrew Walter as a Sophmore threw over 3,500 yards in only 8 game, there was also Carson Palmer, and Kyle Boller.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
10. You have seperated these issues into two groups but
You have seperated these issues into two groups but you haven't said anything about Dean's actual positions on these issues. Can we have more info? And are these really the only issues? For instance you listed under 'Conservative' the death penalty issue. What about the right to due process?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. ?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. What didn't you understand?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Uh,
Those are his positions. He is for it unless it has anti- in front of it. I thought it was rather obvious. I'll try to be more considerate to the obvious-challenged in the future.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Binary Logic Works Wonders
I prefer A/Not A myself.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks for the tip.
I'll drop my use of fer/agin'.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I'm sure Dean has more detailed positions than just
I'm sure Dean has more detailed positions than just

"I'm liberal on Issue 'A'"
"I'm conservative on Issue 'B'"


'liberal' and 'conservative' are just labels.

You have listed many issues, and labelled your perception of Dean's positions on those issues, but you haven't discussed his actual positions.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Either PM indigo32 or
go to http://www.deanforamerica.com/ and click "ISSUES." If you're interested. Knowing that you're not, your other option is to post some inflammatory flamebait and further degrade the debate. Your choice.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It is flamebait to ask you to discuss the details of the issues?
It is flamebait to ask you to discuss the details of the issues? Your only answer is to go to Deans website?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. No, it's not.
But when "flamebait" is in the title it kind of gives it away. I only used "not flamebait" to try and differentiate between what was going on on the board at the time, but I can understand how it might appear that I was being disingenous.

If you believe that Dean is really anti-civil rights, go ahead and make your case. I'll listen.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You seem to be talking about some other thread
You seem to be talking about some other thread. I am engaged in THIS discussion in THIS thread.

You have stated that you think some of Dean's positions are conservative, and that you think some of Dean's positions are liberal.

All I am asking for is a discussion of the positions themselves so we all can decide for ourselves which label WE want to put on them.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Never mind.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I think it's
safe to say... Dean is not opposed to the right to due process... course that involves far more issues than the death penalty doesn't it. He has specifically stated regarding the Patriot Act...
"First of all, I would remove the parts of the Patriot Act that are clearly unconstitutional"

http://truthout.org/docs_03/052203A.shtml

regarding the rest of the issues... it's a long list... if you have specific questions...post them or PM me, I'll be happy to answer.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. I disagree with your assessment
Edited on Thu Aug-14-03 02:09 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
I disagree with your assessment. But I certainly do agree that it involves far more issues than the death penalty. For instance whether to adequately fund public defenders, what kind of judges to appoint, and whether the right to appeal is a 'technicality'.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1
http://www.thomhartmann.com/government.shtml
http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm
http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003681.html#003681
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1907-2003Jul2¬Found=true
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/930194.asp?0si=-&cp1=1#BODY
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1


And I understand your desire to debate the issues via private messenger rather than here in the public forum. However, I am more interested in a public discussion.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. I didn't mean to imply we couldn't discuss it out in the open
I believe my words where post a specific question or PM me a specific question. I'm OK either way.
As far as the links you posted...
1rst: I can understand how you feel about his death penalty stance, I am fully opposed to Death Penalty, and his response was poorly worded. But frankly... if you're going to have the Death Penalty (which VT didn't if you remember correctly)...the facts are the facts... you run the risk of innocent people being executed. I would love it if he were against the death penalty but being in the office he'll be in... I have less concern about it.

then you posted a quote that came out right after 9/11... I'm sorry but I'm going to give him a pass on stupid things said 3 days after that event. He seems to have cleared his head since then.

As for the article by Thomas Hartmann, I sure would like some sourcing.

Anyway...you raise some interesting issues... and I'll try and keep an open mind.



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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-03 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. How about the environment?
How about the environment? All I know about Dean on the environment are some vague second- and third-hand charges and countercharges. What was Dean's record on environmental issues as Governor?
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. Dean's a centrist, period
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Somewhat disagree.
<------------------------------------------------------------->
___ Left_________________ Center_____________________ Right___


I'd put him here:
<-----------------X------------------------------------>

You'd put him here:
<----------------------------X------------------------->

blm would put him here:
<-----------------------------------------------X------>

and a fundie would put him here:
<-X---------------------------------------------------->


It's all too subjective to properly label. Period.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I'd Put Him Here
Dean:
Kerry: x

John Kerry is the most electable candidate because of his electability. Ha! Circular logic trumps binary! Woo hoo! Scratch one up for me!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I surrender. Can't beat that logic.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
31. GE your facts straight. Anti-Kyoto, anti civil-unions nationally,
not willing to commit to pro-choice justices, anti-civil liberties, pro-NAFTA, anti-use of Rov V.Wade as a litmus test, anti-medical marijuana, pro-nuclear dumping at Yucca Mountain.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Genius, you've entered my list.
Please go away.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Bottom line is still...
What kind of record Dena had in Vermont. What his record of supporting progress/liberal legislations and party platforms was while Governor, what happened to the democratic base while he was Governor.

The one thing that Dean does NOT have as governor, is much of a record of supporting legislation put forth by the democratic party while Governor, has a record of supporting much of the Vermont Republican party's legislative ideas and agenda.

Until Deans signed the civil unions legislation Deans primary support in Vermont came from two groups, Progressive Republicans, and Reagan Democrats. And Dean was not an activist in the cause of Civil Unions or Gay Rights. He did not actively seek out legislation to support gay civil rights, or in fact, any other kind of civil rights.

Dean did to the Republican Party, during every campaign for Governor, what Ronald Reagan did to the Democratic Party.
Reagan siphoned off large numbers of Democrats, with a "Fiscally Conservative"/"Populist Message" and avoided social issues entirely.
While at the same time, democrats began to leave the Democratic Party for the Progressive Party, becasue of Deans conservatism. Since the democratic party had no progressive liberal, or even moderately liberal candidate running for Governor, not did the Party ever select an alternate candidate to Dean, the Democratic Party virtually ceased to exist in Vermont.

In Vermont Dean did the same thing, focused on a fiscally conservative economic policy, and pretty much ignored or avoided social policy, except for his haphazard attempts at Universal Health Care. In this area, the idea he favored, multi-payer, use the existing private insurance system for workers, medicare and medicaid for the elderly, poor and disabled, but did NOTHING to control the industries involved themselves. These were the Big Health Care Providers,Insurance Companies, and the Pharmaceutical Industry.

Dean did nothing to contain the rising cost of medical care and prescription drugs, and kept reducing the payments physicians received for accepting Medicaid assignment, pretty much making it impossible for doctors to accept medicaid, and be able to run their offices. NO matter how much doctors wanted to accept medicaid patients, they didnt eeven break even to provide service, and doctors could not continue to acccept medicaid assignment.

But large health care businessses were favored by the reimbursement structure, a costs went up, nothing was done to restrict it, and Vermonts Health care budget began to eat up larger and larger portions of the State budget, yet the percentage of people who were uninsured did not significantly drop. The level in which the number of insured increased was consistant with the same increases in coverage all over the nation as a result of changes to medicaid coverage instituted under Clinton.

Studies of Vermont by the HRSA, and by a commission mandated by Dean, comprised of his own appointees found that Vermont's health care delivery syystem was rated "AVERAGE", by the government, providing no more, or no less health care service, and no better or no worse health care services than were available in other states.

regardless of what Dean or in fact, what any candidate says while trying to get elected (no matter what, most politicians will try to blow their own horn when trying to get elected), the only real way to determine what they MIGHT do as president, is to look at what they actually have done in the past.

At least Kerry had the honesty to state, "Dont listen to what I tell you during this campaign, but go back and look at the ENTIRE legislative record of my political career"

You look at what a candidate has supported, what they did not, who they fought, who they did not. You look most particualrly at who their enemies were, and who was most critical of them during that career.

Kerry was criticized by the likes of Nixon, Reagan, Bush and all of their appointed officials like Colson.


Dean made was criticized by most of the Democratic Party in Vermont, which was moving farther to the left, while Dean was forming coalitions with Republicans to oppose them.


With such credentials, who really doe represent "The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party"

Dean with his history of opposing all fiscal policies and options put forth by Democrats and Progressives, while favoring fiscal policies favored by all but the most extremist elements of the Vermont Republican Party....

Or Kerry, who has repeatedly tried to block most Republican legislation put forth for his entire career in Congress.



Even Deans anti Iraq stance must be looked at with a jaded eye, as no one can actually know if his stance is real, or political posturing to gain support from the anti-war element that was highly visible during the 6 or 7 months prior to the invasion of Iraq.

Regardless of what he states to gain political capital, Deans total record as governor suggests that under most circumstances, he has always sided with Republicans and other conservatives.

One of the most certain psychological characteristics of people is that past behavior and performance is a very very accurate indicator of future behavior and performance.

This is how psychological profilers figure out all sorts of things, from what people are likely to buy, to what type of person an un-apprehended criminal might be.

Andrew Luster, and similar criminals are almost always captured by applying this principal. The principal that ALL people are creatures of habit, and tend to behave the same same way their entire life.

Dean is a conservative creature. His answer to everything is fiscal conservatism, and everytime he has campaigned on a promise of doing one thing or another, when it cane time to do it, he states that it is simply fiscally impossible. OF course, he knew this when he was promising it, but oddly enough, most people listen for what they want to hear, and tend to support people who tell them whatever they want to hear, regardless of how often the person then turns around and does the opposite. After 8 years in office, failing to provide the Universal Health Care that was his big ticket item during those years, and due to the problems with his large Republican base caused by signing the civil unions act. Dean really had no choice, as the Vermont Supreme Court, cognizant of what other states had done to avoid passing such legislation, like amending their constitutions, the Vermont Supreme Court very cleverly inserted wording into their decision letting the legislative branch know what solution the court
would accept, and used the wording that it gays had the constitutional right to the same treament under civil laws as non-gays, and then gave the legislature TWO possible solutions to resolve this. Either allow gays the same right to civil marriage, or create a parallel set of laws for them. This very cleverly worded legal language was a shot across those who would try to amend the constitution. Essentially they said if you try it, we will declare your amendment unconstitutional.

Clever,clever justices.

So essentially, Dean has shown no signs of anything but cinservative behavior, in all of the thing he states he would veto, in all of the things he said he would support.

In social areas, such as drug abuse, or drug legalization or the drug war, Dean is as conservative as any Republican.

The key to Dean does not lie in what he states in debates or on Dean for America, but in the decisions he made as governor regarding budgets, taxation, social nad other government programs.

From this vantage point, Dean is clearly a conservative.

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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Thank you Nicholas
Excellent response.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-03 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. You are most welcome...
Your recognition of it is indicative that you are most deserving of your user name
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
32. Dean is TOO-LIBERAL and TOO-CONSERVATIVE
Depending on who I talk to.

Maybe we're just tossing labels at him because he's the one surging up the polls right now (well, so is Kucinich) and everyone else is kinda treading water.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Maybe if he were more of a straight talker there wouldnt be this confusion
Edited on Thu Aug-14-03 02:48 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
Maybe if he were more of a straight talker there wouldnt be this confusion.

"TOO-LIBERAL and TOO-CONSERVATIVE Depending on who I talk to."

Kinda like 'all things to all people'?

Perhaps the problem is that Dean is too liberal or too conservative depending on who he is talking to.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
33. Now find references to the NON-CONSERVATIVE POSITIONS YOU
Are bestopwing upon Dean from OUTSIDE of his own current campaign, and back it up with articles showing that Dean has actively supported thise positions by ACTIONS, rather than in campaign speeches, and you will have a chance of PROVING that he is not conservative.

THats the problem with Dean supporters. THey used Denas own campaign positions to prove that he has one political slant of the other but NEVER come up with subtantive information from outsiede Deans own campaign to valalidate their OPINION that what the see on Dean for America, or heal coming out of Deans own mouth is true.

I am accused of Dean bashing, yet I am all too willing to LISTEN to valid, non-partisan informaiton about Dena, not stuff that comes from his cheeleaders.

So far, All I have found praisewortthy about Dean is his exhaustive understanding and comprehension of Health Related Problems in Africa.

But thats about it.

Problem with posts like this. is that there is nothing to back them up.
If you mention civil unions and mention that there are significant numbers of gays who found Deans solution unsatisfactory, thies is views as an attack.

All you are doing is sating whatv Dean is saying.

You swill not admit thatrepeal of the tax cuts IS rasing taxes, because of some BIZARRE idea that ONLY the rich got the tax cuts, regardless og the fact that 54 percent of the tax cut money went to the opt 2 percent of the population and the other 46 went somewhere else, that had to be the poor and middle class.

The fact that these cuts eneded up amounting to no economic improvement for these people may be becasue of increases in local taxes may be true, but by repealing theb Bush tax cuts, Dean does not immediately eliminate the increased taxes at the local level. So in effect, Deans eleimiation of the cuts puts a double whammy on the poor and middle class, They now lose the money that they had added to their paychecks each week, but still have to pay their higher local taxes as well. So Deans repeal of the tax cuts would amount to higher taxation on the poors and middle class than the Bush tax cuts alone caused.

O.K.

COnvince me from Deans past record, withe newspaper articles that Dean actually has done anything that even remotely resembles the items he is proposing for the nation.


With links and articles that actually can connect any of Deans decisions and legislative actions to the resultant bnefits to the population he governed.

If you claim Dean increased health care availability, show me Deans proposed or passed staed legislation that created some new program that was not related to or was a federal mandate.


Do not link me to the Vermont Health Care Authority WEbsite and say see...

Because you have not linked those programs or what they offer to Dean, his leadership, or any legislation for this.

You are all too willing to give Dean credit for programs he claims, yet provide not real substantive evidence that HE was responsible for creating, or improving those programs.

Every link I have seen to prove something about Dean and health care, or Dean and taxation in Vermont, contained absolutely nothing, that sources the legislative or execustive changes, or in fact anything, to connect Dean POSITIVELY to those conditions.

Yet if sourced, news article, even articlae non-editorial in nature, indicate the exact opposite. Dean supporters absolutely refuse to admit to Deans complicity in extrememly conservative actions, or choose to ignore it.

Using Deans campaign screed in order to prove if he is more conservative, or progressive, or centrist, is like going to the Bible to find proof of the existance of a supreme being.

It say what those who go to it for answers want to hear.

Do does Dean.

Dean beat BILL CLINTON, by two years in what is considered Clintons worse betrayal of the democratic progressive agenda in dismantling public assistance and housing for poor minorities. ENDING WELFARE, and turning it to WORKFARE. And Deans version was far more, well the only word for it is BRUTAL, than the federal version..

AS a matter of fact, black political scientists and politicians consider the ending of Welfare, and the set up of workfare as the MOST REGRESSIVE political action taken by the federal government and the states in the last 100 years.

What is needed, to change the Democratic Party is not Howard Dean.

What is needed is a white Al Sharpton. Someone who can actually translate the liberal/progressive message to the MIDDLE CLASS, and the Blue Collar worker. Dena will not make a dent in the black community. Fiscxal conservatism has zero weight with them.

The party has been drive furtther and further to the right by what were once called Reagan Democrats. People who once had ideals, which the had no money, and once they had money, gave up their ideals and decided they wanted to hold onto their money.

Dena is essentially a Reagan Democrat. Fiscally responsible, giving a nod to social liberalism, but NEVER active in figfhting for it or demanding as governor, legislation for it.

Many criticize the Washington insiders for NOT FIGHTING BUSH.

But look back and Dean's record as governor and ask a similar question. WHio did dean fight for, Who did he oppose. Why.

Did Deans substantively and actively support liberal and progressive ideas and legialtion. Did he oppose them. Did he veto them, did he threaten to, did he weaken them.

Can you find an example of Dean asking the legislature for ANY progressive legislation to be put forward as a part of his beleives as leader of the state.

Did he strengthen or weaken environmental controls.

Dean is credited for Vermont having laws that kept emissions and pollution low. But were the previous standardsc even better, or was Dean creating new lowered standards in orcer to bring big polluting businesses into the state.

Those are the REAL questions to ask.


This stuff is like the kind of laundry lists of good things that happen to those who beleive in Jesus that you see Pat Robertson spouting on the 700 Club.

IF you belive in Jesus, x will happen, becasue its in the bible, and the bible is from God.

The above argument is one of themost beautiful examples of a recursive political beleif that I have ever seen.

Howard Dean will do X becasue Howard Dean says he will do X, even though there is no real evidince of his ever having supported X ever in the past, and a pretty substantial body of evidence that he has done -X in the past.

To me, Deans supporters are much like those bible believers who base their reason for beleiving on the contents of the bible...

But I once peaked at the end of the bible...(the devil did it)

Dean inherited many of the progressive conditions that existent in Vermont prior to becoming governor. For the most part, Dean reversed many of the progressive conditions. His supporters believe in him simply because they LIKE what he has said, but make littl effort to go outside of sources recommended by Dean and his own Internet sites to determinbe if what he is claiming to do has any connect with anything he has actually put into existence in the real world, rather than being mere talk.

I have done final calculations on the Vermont Health care situation in Vermont, and the final analysus is that not one thing Dean did provided ONE person with more health benefits than they would have recieved under federal medicaid changes during the 90's under CLinton.

I pretty muh have decided that the best way to deal with Dean is not to argue on sites like DU, but to simply send all of the links and articles I find about Dean to ALL of the other candidates opposing him for the nominations.

Frighteningly effective.

I have recently been seeing cnadidates quote parts of my lists and emails and the articles I have sent, verbatim....



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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. I agree. I started investigating Dean on my own because I wanted

to know if he was deserving of the adulation heaped on him by his fans.

I've learned that, despite constantly referring to "the way we did it in Vermont" (I heard him say this at least twice live on C-SPAN today), he had his gubernatorial records sealed for ten years. He actually wanted them sealed for twenty years. If you're proud of your record, why seal it? Sealing records is a BFEE tactic.

Ive learned that Vermont is now #2 in the US in numbers of Medicaid recipients. Federal money from Medicaid is the source of the "free" health care Dean talks about bringing to thousands of Vermonters.

I've learned that Democrats in Vermont started a Progressive Party to get away from Dean because they considered him too conservative.

I've learned that environmentalists in Vermont are not Howard Dean fans, nor are firefighters, who say he screwed them on some basic labor issues.

I've learned that when he signed the bill authorizing civil unions for gays, he did it behind closed doors and no photos of the event were taken.

He talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. Although many of these are Federal positions in which he can't
have signed legislation, here's what I see on the list that he signed or actively supported:

Civil unions.
Drug patent reform.
UHC.
Head start.

Success by six.
Pro-choice.
Repeal Booooosh tax cuts.
Affordable housing.
Lead abatement.
Community development.

EPA-cabinet status.
Pro Kyoto.
Renewable energy.
Property tax exemptions for Veterans.
IRV.
Pro- Innocence Protection Act (Leahy)
Right-to-vote (felons)
Pro- Conservation Security Program (Harkin)
Card check.
Overtime pay.
Anti- Captive Audience.
Global warming.
Pro- CAFE standards.

Links:
http://www.sec.state.vt.us/otherprg/civilunions/civilunions.html
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Regional_News/Story/69038.html
http://www.smartgrowth.org/news/bystate.asp?state=VT&res=1024
http://www.leadlawsuits.com/modelprograms_state_local.htm

That's just a cursory look. For more info try: www.google.com
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Here's a "give him time to respond" kick.
:kick:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
71. "That's the problem" kick
THats the problem with Dean supporters. THey used Denas own campaign positions to prove that he has one political slant of the other but NEVER come up with subtantive information from outsiede Deans own campaign to valalidate their OPINION that what the see on Dean for America, or heal coming out of Deans own mouth is true.


24 hours later, still :kick:ing.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
35. Add
"supports big military" to top list

Also, consider nixing from the bottom list items which cost $$, since a fiscal conservative is unlikely to support those things with it. (You know, in the same vein as Bu$h's unfunded education mandate?) I don't think repealing the tax cuts will provide enough funds to support the programs we progressives worry over losing. We need to get $$ by closing corporate tax loopholes and shutting down ridiculous money-sucking Star Wars programs.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. for me on some issues yeah
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
37. too conservative?
No duh!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. No.
I think duh works just fine in this case.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
49. Dean Claims To Be The Most Progressive Candidate In The Race
"It's a pathetic thing that I'm the most progressive candidate" among those considered to have a serious shot at the nomination, Dean says.

"I find it hard to believe that I'm the only major candidate running, who's in reasonably good shape in the polls, who voted “No” on the Iraq Resolution."
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Good quotes
Got a link? I'd like to read that article in its entirety.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Good quote, except it is inaccurate
Dean says he voted "No" on the Iraq War Resolution? Is this in some alternate universe where he was a Senator or Congressman or what?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. It's the same alternate universe that
an "Aye" vote on the IWR was not giving the POTUS the power to declare war, I guess.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. In other words, Dean lied when he said he voted on the resolution
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 12:32 PM by Feanorcurufinwe

Did he or did he not vote on the resolution?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. He did not.
He's a liar. Happy?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. No, I'm not happy.
I wish he weren't.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. I think that John Kerry would be embarrassed........
if he read your posts.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. You're entitled to your opinion.
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 01:21 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
And I am entitled to mine. I respect someone who holds consistent, reasoned positions, and doesn't change his story depending on who he is talking to or how the political winds have changed. Even if I sometimes disagree with those positions. You respect... well, that's what I don't understand, I guess.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I just think that you've lost touch with reality if you think.....
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 01:23 PM by virtualobserver
that Dean is claiming to be a member of Congress who voted on that resolution.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Dean said he voted on the resolution. Is that a true or a false statement?
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 01:29 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
Either Dean voted on the resolution, and he was making a true statement, or he didn't vote on the resolution, and he was making a false statement.

Which is it?
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. or the third possibility, that Dean hasn't lost his mind......
and merely accidentally phrased it that way.

For Kerry's sake, I hope that you aren't a member of his staff.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. The statement is either true or false
You seem, for some reason that I don't understand, unwilling to admit that it was a false statement.

If it is a false statement, then there could be many explanations as to why Dean said it.

He could be trying to create a false impression. Or he could just be someone who is sloppy in their speech and not careful about what he says. You have concluded that the second explanation is the correct one.

I'll keep an open mind.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Link
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. It's kind of a tacit swipe at Kucinich.
The millions of people who marched in the streets "voted No," too.
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Aye...it's obvious he didn't mean 'vote'
as in he was in Congress. Here's the full paragraph, one I rather like a lot:

I want a foreign policy that is consistent with American values. I find it hard to believe that I'm the only major candidate running, who's in reasonably good shape in the polls, who voted "No" on the Iraq Resolution. I don't think this is a matter of being a pacifist, I think most of you know that I'm not one. I don't think you can run for President if you're not willing to use the military might of the United States in defense of our country. But Mr. President, where are the weapons that you told us about, where is the evidence? Where is the evidence that those weapons were going to Sadaam Hussein? All the Democrats "oh, oh! This is a clear and present danger to the United States!" It is? Well let's see the evidence now, and let's not give the President of the United States the authority to go to war any more, timed six months in advance of that presentation of that evidence, like before the election. We can do better than that! We'll defend our country and we'll use the military power of the United States to do so if necessary, but we're not going to lose nine American soldiers every week in Iraq because we can't figure out how to bring democracy to Iraq and make a long-term commitment to building middle class nations with Democratic ideals, where women fully participate in the governments of those countries. That's what our foreign policy should be about, because that's a long-range strength for our foreign policy.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. So whenever Dean says something that isn't true, he "didn't mean it"
Edited on Sun Aug-17-03 12:34 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I tend to look at the whole package
I've never professed that Dean is the almighty god that does no wrong. In this instance, I just don't see the big deal you are trying to make of it. You don't like what he said, while I can see the forest for the trees. I've listened to all his speeches that are available, looked at his record, and like what I see. So yeah, I can give him the benefit of the doubt here. You don't like what you see, so you don't. I have no problem with that.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. What About The Big Fat Lie In The Middle?
All the Democrats "oh, oh! This is a clear and present danger to the United States!" -Howard Dean, before an anti-war crowd.

"Every nation has the right to act preemptively if it faces an imminent and grave threat. But the threat we face, today, with Iraq fails the test." -John Kerry, before the Senate IWR vote.

The more I look into Dean's record, the more lies and deception begin to rear their head. This blatant distortion - if not outright lie - is right in line with Dean's attack on Kerry's "misled" quote. Dean said plain as daylight that he was "misled" on Meet The Press, then less than a month later charged that we cannot afford to vote for a Democrat that was misled. Of course, Kerry said he may have been misled, Dean definitively said he himself had been misled.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Thanks for making it simple.
"Every nation has the right to act preemptively if it faces an imminent and grave threat. But the threat we face, today, with Iraq fails the test." -John Kerry, before the Senate IWR vote.

Roll call:

Kerry, "Aye."

Am I missing something here? There's a word for what this is called. It starts with a B. Ends with T. And has ULLSHI in the middle.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Only Dean Made The Issue About Imminent Threat
Because he was afraid to mention disarmament. Even now he mentions the word - if at all - in a very, very, very brief aside. Very Presidential of him.

Kerry's vote was completely in keeping with the views he held since 1997. And that's the truth, Ruth. He has made no qualms about exactly where he stands.

Dean, on the other hand, is hard to get a grasp on. He keeps blathering about the "imminent threat," but repeatedly fails to mention what needed to be done about the situation. He sticks to criticizing where Kerry offers real alternatives.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. One by one.
Because he was afraid to mention disarmament. Even now he mentions the word - if at all - in a very, very, very brief aside. Very Presidential of him.

"I opposed President Bush’s war in Iraq from the beginning. While Saddam Hussein’s regime was clearly evil and needed to be disarmed..." -Howard Dean http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_foreign

Kerry's vote was completely in keeping with the views he held since 1997. And that's the truth, Ruth. He has made no qualms about exactly where he stands.

Correct. He's wanted to invade Iraq since 1997. Only he wanted to do it with the UN and/or NATO. ---By involving NATO, troops from other countries, and the United Nations, Senator Kerry believes that we can best achieve our goal of helping the Iraqi people to create a stable and democratic Iraq, while reducing the burden on our military and making America more secure by increasing our ability to combat terrorism.http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/security_peace_iraq.html Terrorism was coming from Iraq? I'll have to ask Ruth if that's the truth, I guess.

Dean, on the other hand, is hard to get a grasp on. He keeps blathering about the "imminent threat," but repeatedly fails to mention what needed to be done about the situation. He sticks to criticizing where Kerry offers real alternatives.

Two days ago, I formally launched my campaign for President with a call for a Great American Restoration.

I spoke of the need to restore the American people's faith in their political system and government. To restore our government's commitment to the values of community, equality, opportunity and justice for all. To restore our role as a world leader by setting a positive example and working together to meet the challenges facing the global community in this new century.

I believe that the United States has a special role to play in world affairs. We have long been an inspiration to all those around the world seeking democracy, freedom and opportunity.

We have shaped our own destiny and set an example for the world that through hard work every obstacle can be overcome.

Every candidate who seeks to lead America must keep this inspiration alive.

In recent months, I have traveled across the country and found a nation deeply troubled about the direction of U.S. national security policy today.

Americans do not understand how we could have squandered the precious opportunity we had after September 11 to unite the world in opposition to the likes of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

They are concerned that international support for the war against terror is waning and, along with it, admiration and support for the United States.

They are confused that elections in countries long allied to us such as Germany and South Korea are now being decided on the basis of which candidate is more willing to stand up to oppose American policies.

They are astounded that increasing numbers of people in Europe, Asia and in our own hemisphere cite America not as the strongest pillar of freedom and democracy but as a threat to peace.

They are disturbed that brave men and women in our armed forces are being targeted systematically nearly two months after a war we were told had ended, in a country where we were assured that our troops would be welcomed as liberators.

There is a dawning realization across the land that despite winning a military battle in Iraq, the United States may be losing a larger war. That we may well be less secure today than we were two and a half years ago when this administration took office. And we have yet to see the report that details the events that led up to September 11th, so that we can improve our ability to respond in the future.

Americans are ready, I believe, to restore the best traditions of American leadership. Leadership in which our power is multiplied by the appeal of democratic ideals and by the knowledge that our country is a force for law around the world, not a law unto itself.

America became America by rebelling against imperial power.

America emerged from isolation to greatness by beating fascist power.

America became synonymous with justice by supporting independence for colonies from an imperial world.

America's ideals triumphed when it confronted communism to the point of extinction.

America is not Rome. We do not dream of empire. We dream of liberty for all.

In November 2004, the American people will seek a President who is prepared to use our brave and remarkable armed forces, as I would, to defend against any actual or imminent threat to ourselves or our friends and allies and in concert with others to deal with grave humanitarian crises.

They will seek a President skilled at garnering the support of allies, but willing to act, as I would, when it is necessary to protect and defend our country.

They will seek a President focused, as I would be, on the dismantling of terrorist organizations, the disruption of terrorist operations, the apprehension of terrorist planners and the prevention of terrorist efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction.

But they will also seek a President who would strive, as I would, not to divide the world into us versus them, but rather to rally the world around fundamental principles of decency, responsibility, freedom and mutual respect. Our foreign and military policy must be about the notion of America leading the world, not America against the world.

Presidents such as Truman, Eisenhower and Kennedy built and strengthened international institutions, rather than dismissing and disparaging the concerns of allies. They inspired and mobilized other countries because they believed there was no more powerful force on earth than that of free people working together.

They helped build global platforms such as the UN, NATO, and the World Bank, on which free people everywhere could stand. Our greatest leaders built America's reputation as the world's leading democracy by never resting until they had given life to American ideals.

That is why I do not accept that a candidate's national security credentials should be considered suspect for opposing the war in Iraq at the time it was initiated, with the limited level of international support we had, the lack of postwar planning that had been undertaken, and the failure to make the case that the threat was imminent enough to justify preventive action.

Some in the Democratic party claim that a candidate who questioned the war cannot lead the party in the great national debate that lies ahead.

I would remind them that during the Cuban Missile Crisis, President John F. Kennedy took on the hawks among the Joint Chiefs of Staff as well as the "me-too'ers" in Congress. The President and his advisors used toughness, patience, and diplomacy. The missiles came out of Cuba and war was averted.

Last October, four of the major contenders for the Democratic nomination supported the President's preemptive strike resolution five months before we went to war without, as we now realize, knowing the facts.

I stood up against this administration and even when 70% of the American people supported the war, I believed that the evidence was not there and I refused to change my view. As it turned out, I was right. No Democrat can beat George Bush without the same willingness that John F. Kennedy showed in 1962. A President must be tough, patient, and willing to take a course of action based on evidence, and not ideology.

I question the judgment of those who led us into this conflict this unfinished conflict that has made us, on balance, not more secure, but less. Although we may have won the war, we are failing to win the peace.

I believed then and I believe now that removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq was a just cause. But not every just cause requires that we go to war, especially with inadequate planning and without maximum support.

The Bush administration led us into war without convincing evidence that an imminent threat existed, without a strategy for securing nuclear, chemical and biological materials, without a plan for financing reconstruction, and without a clue how to consolidate the peace or unite the Iraqi people in support of democracy.

Today we face three critical problems, all connected with the manner in which we prosecuted the war. The first is accounting for the weapons of mass destruction, vital because of the implications for our own security as well as for the integrity and credibility of the United States and its leaders in the eyes of the world.

There are three possibilities. As the search continues, substantial stocks of these weapons may be found. In that case, we will still need to know why our intelligence failed and did not lead us to them more rapidly.

The other possibilities are that they will never be found because they no longer exist; or that they will never be found because they have already been stolen or transferred to others.

In any case, we need to know the truth.

Serious doubts about our integrity have been raised; not only in the streets of nations that do not know us well, but also in the parliaments and press rooms of countries that know us best. The checks and balances in the national security process in our Executive Branch have clearly broken down.

That's why it is imperative to have an independent, bipartisan, comprehensive and transparent investigation of how our intelligence on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction was developed and selectively used to justify war in Iraq. In other words, what did the President know and when did he know it?

The second major challenge results from a failure to plan for peace as fully as we planned for war. General Shinseki's professional military advice that 200,000 troops would be needed was rejected. I would add at least 50,000 foreign troops to the force in Iraq.

It is imperative that we bring the international community in to help stabilize Iraq. If I were President, I would reach out to NATO, to Arab and Islamic countries, to other friends to share the burden and the risks.

We need to consider the impact on our guard and reserve troops operating in Iraq. And we should ask that the forces of foreign friends and allies increasingly assume police and security missions. Our active duty military forces are the best trained and best equipped of any military force in the world. We must continue to be able to train them and prepare for other potential war-fighting missions that arise in this dangerous world.

This leads me to the third problem resulting from the single-minded focus on getting rid of Saddam. For nearly a year, we have been too distracted to focus on a number of other serious problems that have emerged.

While we focused on Iraq, we neglected the very real nuclear threats emerging in North Korea and Iran. For months we refused to see North Korea's nuclear challenge as a crisis--and now it is a declared nuclear power.

The Bush administration has not had talks with the North in over two months. It is foolish to refuse to have bilateral discussions with the North Koreans: we are, after all, the most powerful nation on the face of the earth and losing face should not be an issue.

The goal of our policy with North Korea must be to prevent continued nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula and to prevent the transfer of weapons or materials to third parties or terrorists.

In Iran, we again must use the full range of economic and diplomatic tools at our disposal. We must work with the Europeans and the Russians to stop Iranian development of nuclear weapons and their support of terror. And we must do what we can to strengthen and encourage the voices among Iranian youth who are striving for true change and freedom.

Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden used our loss of focus to rebuild their terrorist networks, as recent deadly attacks on in Saudi Arabia and Morocco demonstrate.

While we focused on Iraq, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was neglected. The President, despite knowing how critical his personal involvement was, refused to engage for over two full years, squandering the momentum he inherited from the Clinton administration.

I am truly optimistic about the chances for peace in the Middle East. Our strongest asset is that majorities of both peoples in this conflict actually accept a two-state solution guaranteeing both sides security, sovereignty and dignity.

Most Israelis recognize that they will have to give back occupied land and give up settlements. Most Palestinians understand that there will never be a Palestinian state as long as terrorist attacks continue. Yet the Palestinians have assets that are often misunderstood. They have a high level of education. Palestinian women play a more significant role in government than in almost any other Arab society. And a large number of Palestinians have a significant experience with democracy, having lived in Europe, the United States and, of course, in Israel. Yassir Arafat is not the answer, but Abu Mazen and Salim Fayed, who I met with in Jerusalem, may well be the answer.

Finally, the United States must reduce its dependence on Middle Eastern oil and we must have a President who is willing to confront the Iranians, the Syrians, the Saudis, and others who send money to Hamas, and finance a worldwide network of fundamentalist schools which teach small children to hate Americans, Christians, and Jews.

Let us turn our attention to postwar Afghanistan. I supported the President's invasion of Afghanistan. Al Qaeda was and continues to be an imminent threat to the United States.

However, insufficient security assistance and economic investment are opening the door to civil strife and tribal warfare, again the very conditions that bred the Taliban in the first place. Our repeated assurances of aid and reconstruction have resulted in lost hope and empty promises for the people of Afghanistan once again.

The U.S. must redouble its effort to garner aid from the donor community and to increase to 30-40,000 the number of military troops our friends and allies commit to help us rebuild Afghanistan. For the United States to rely on warlords to keep peace in Afghanistan nearly two years after a successful military operation demonstrates an extraordinary lack of thoughtful vision.

Not only has the focus of this Administration's foreign policy been wrong. So is the manner in which it has been conducted.

Instead of the humility we were promised, this administration has acted with unparalleled arrogance and disregard for the concerns of others.

It has rejected a long list of multilaterally negotiated agreements: the comprehensive test ban, the Kyoto treaty, the Law of the Sea Treaty, the Biological Warfare Convention Protocol, the International Criminal Court, the Landmine convention; the list goes on and on. These treaties are not without flaws, but surely some could be ratified and others renegotiated. The answer is to work to rewrite them, and not to walk away from them.

The bedrock of our strength and security is provided by our economy, our military and our values. We cannot deny, however, that our strength derives in large measure as well from the extent to which others emulate and respect us abroad--and not by the extent to which they fear and loathe us.

America must not shy away from its role as the remaining superpower in the world. We are, as Madeleine Albright once put it, the "indispensable power" for so many challenges around the world. Inevitably, some will resent us for what we have, and some will hate us for what we believe.

But there is much in the world that we cannot achieve on our own. So we must lead toward clearly articulated and shared goals and with the cooperation and respect of friends and allies.

As President, I would set four goals for American leadership:

First, defeat the threat posed by terrorists, tyrants, and technologies of mass destruction.

Second, strengthen our alliances and ensure Russia and China are fully integrated into a stable international order.

Third, enlarge the circle of beneficiaries of the growing world economy.

And fourth, ensure that life on our fragile planet is sustainable.

Preemptive war against tyrannical dictators is not a comprehensive strategy for addressing the threat that terrorists, tyrants, and technologies of mass destruction pose in the 21st century.

In fact, misuse of the doctrine may have the opposite effect.

In the profession of medicine, the first rule is to do no harm. To deal with the long-term terrorist threat we must root out and destroy the terrorists, their networks and their support systems. But in doing so, we must not provide them with a rationale for new recruits.

In this fight, it is essential that America lead by example and exercise power responsibly. Only in that way can we hope to eliminate support for the next generation of extremists who regard our culture and our actions not simply with envy or jealousy but with a deep-seated hatred over the manner in which we conduct our affairs.

The Clinton administration was committed to military engagement with friends and allies around the world, helping to train and equip these countries so that they were better prepared to work with the U.S. in shouldering this burden. As President, my administration would redouble these efforts.

Here at home, we need a real commitment to homeland security. As President, I would immediately devote significant new resources to preventing, managing and responding to potential and actual terrorist threats here at home. If we can spend $400 billion to defend our nation from threats abroad, as we must, should we not spend more to defend our nation at home?

We need to devote more resources to fully fund, equip and train first responders across the nation: the policemen, firemen, emergency room personnel, and hundreds of thousands of other Americans that form the first line of defense against terrorism. We simply must provide significant new resources to state and local governments, specifically earmarked for these purposes.

With only 4 percent of 5.7 million containers arriving at our 361 seaports annually inspected, this is one of the greatest points of vulnerability that must be addressed, not tomorrow, but today.

We need to allocate the funds necessary to address the threat of weapons of mass destruction or weapons-grade material ending up in the hands of terrorists. The Cooperative Threat Reduction program with Russia and other former Soviet states is working, it just requires much more money to get the job done right.

Homeland security does not stop at our borders. Success in confronting these threats hinges on the willingness of our friends and allies to work with us. We need the benefit of their intelligence, the assistance of their security and transportation agencies, and the collaboration of their customs offices.

We must strengthen nonproliferation treaties, limit access to nuclear and other dangerous materials, apply coercive diplomacy and, as a last resort, take military action to remove weapons programs and facilities. All of these steps are best taken in concert with other countries, not alone.

Our second priority should be strengthening our bonds with other countries, especially our historical allies in a world growing ever more interdependent. Conducting foreign policy by posse may be expedient, but it is short-sighted and far less stable than a world order built on enduring relationships and viable international institutions.

I would lead this country back to a strong commitment to international alliances and institutions that are the backbone of a stable international order. In an increasingly complex and dangerous world, the more that our destinies are intertwined, the greater the shared sense of purpose, the more likely it is that we will work together successfully to address the difficult challenges ahead.

And we must do this not only with our traditional friends and allies in Latin America, Europe, Asia and Africa, but with such critical powers as Russia and China, both of whom must be fully integrated into the international community as our partners.

Third, we must recognize the importance of spreading the benefits of economic growth as widely as possible. The growth of multinational corporations and the globalization of the economy have helped create wealth and economic growth. But we must make certain that people in the developing world are full and equal beneficiaries in this growth and are not marginalized by it.

As long as half the world's population subsists on less than two dollars a day, the U.S. will not be secure. Poor states and failed states provide breeding grounds for disease as well as recruits and safe havens for terrorists. A world populated by "hostile have-nots" is not one in which U.S. leadership can be sustained without coercion.

We want a trade and development policy that does not enrich the minority but will empower the majority.

In addition to supporting the growth of fair global trade, we must use our foreign assistance monies strategically to support the rule of law, combat corruption, help the most needy and assist governments in creating democracies and developing infrastructure and human resources in their countries. We must bring still more energy to the cooperative battle against HIV/AIDS, which in too many countries is undermining security and tearing the heart out of economies, communities, and entire generations.

Finally, the United States must step to the forefront and promote sustainable development. We cannot ignore climate change, population growth, famine, or the many other global problems that we face. To address them, we must break free of the special interests that constrain our ability to tackle these serious problems.

How can we effectively address burgeoning population growth when this President has revived the "Mexico City policy" imposing a gag order on international family planning providers?

How can we combat AIDS when right-wing ideology is allowed to stand in the way of the promotion of practices most effective at prevention in different societies?

How can we fight global climate change when our energy and environmental policies are created at the behest of contributors from the oil and gas industry who prefer no meaningful action? When critical information on global warming is edited out of EPA reports by White House staff?

I believe that a failure to lead on an issue of this magnitude is immoral. As the world's biggest polluter, we have a special responsibility to take action and to lead the world in combating this gathering crisis.

Fifty-five years ago, President Harry Truman delivered what was known as the Four Point speech. In it, he challenged Democrats and Republicans alike to come together to build strong and effective international organizations; to support arrangements that would spur global economic recovery; to join with free people everywhere in the defense of human liberty; and to draw upon the genius of our people to help societies who needed help in the battle against hunger and illness, ignorance and despair.

This was at the very beginning of the cold war.

America was threatened by a powerful and hostile empire, that was backed by a massive military, bolstered by satellite states, and in the process of developing the hydrogen bomb.

At that moment of maximum peril, President Truman went before the world to spell out not only what America was against, but much more importantly, what America was for.

He did so because he had faith that if America were true to her own principles and values, we could in the long run defeat any foe, no matter how deadly.

He believed that if America reached out to others in friendship and with respect, our strength would be multiplied and that more and more countries would support our policies, not because we told them to, but because they wanted to.

Harry Truman believed that a world in which even the poorest and most desperate had grounds for hope would be a world in which our own children could grow up in security and peace, not because evil would then be absent from the globe, but because the forces of right would be united and strong.

Harry Truman had faith as I have faith, and as I believe the American people have faith, that if we are wise enough and determined enough in our opposition to hate and our promotion of tolerance, in our opposition to aggression and our fidelity to law, we will have allies not only among governments, but among people everywhere.

Such an alliance can never be beaten.

And the creation of such an alliance will be my goal if I am entrusted with the presidency of the United States. Because this is what will keep America strong. This is what reflects the best in the American people. And this is the core of the national security message that I will be carrying to all of America throughout this campaign, that I am committed to working constructively with friends and allies around the globe to help people in every corner of every continent to live in freedom, prosperity and peace. http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_speech_foreign_cfr


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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Two By Four
"I opposed President Bush’s war in Iraq from the beginning. While Saddam Hussein’s regime was clearly evil and needed to be disarmed..." -Howard Dean

June 25th. He opposed the war from the beginning, but supported disarming the evil regime in February.

----

He's wanted to invade Iraq since 1997. Only he wanted to do it with the UN and/or NATO. ---By involving NATO, troops from other countries, and the United Nations, Senator Kerry believes that we can best achieve our goal of helping the Iraqi people to create a stable and democratic Iraq, while reducing the burden on our military and making America more secure by increasing our ability to combat terrorism.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/security_peace_iraq.html

Terrorism was coming from Iraq? I'll have to ask Ruth if that's the truth, I guess.


Where does Kerry say terrorism is coming from Iraq? That would you be twisting words once again. If you bothered to do your homework, you would see that not only did Kerry say there was no evidence of terrorism in Iraq, he stated since 1997 that invasion should be after completely and thoroughly exhausting peaceful means.

Kerry was actually a vocal supporter of tearing down UN sanctions on everything except weapons and dual-use materials. For political gain? Or with the good of the Iraqi people in mind?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. I'll accept these terms:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=21271&mesg_id=22059&page=

Even though you unfairly chalk it up as Dean=disingenuous while Kerry=less than vociferous. I get the idea.

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