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OK, Let's Get The Kerry-Dean "Misled" Issue Resolved

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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-03 11:52 PM
Original message
OK, Let's Get The Kerry-Dean "Misled" Issue Resolved
I've noticed too many people saying that Kerry was "fooled" into supporting the war to let this go any further. It simply is not true. For one thing, Bush's SOTU address was months after the vote. Kerry DID NOT believe there was an imminent threat. He was saying that Bush may have misled the country ON THAT SPECIFIC EVIDENCE, and called for an investigation.

Kerry's position on Iraq has been consistent since 1997:

"Saddam Hussein cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction." - Kerry, 1997.

"While we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if...we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise." - Kerry, 1997.

----------------

LEBANON, N.H. (AP) Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said Wednesday that President Bush broke his promise to build an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein and then waged a war based on questionable intelligence.

Kerry said Bush made his case for war based on at least two pieces of U.S. intelligence that now appear to be wrong that Iraq sought nuclear material from Africa and that Saddam"s regime had aerial weapons capable of attacking the United States with biological material.

''I will not let him off the hook throughout this campaign with respect to America's credibility and credibility to me, because if he lied he lied to me personally,'' he said.

Addressing senior citizens in Hanover later in the evening, Kerry said he supported a congressional investigation because it was not clear whether Bush acted on poor, distorted or politicized intelligence.

"I don"t have the answer," he said. "I want the answer and the American people deserve the answer. I will get to the bottom of this."

http://truthout.org/docs_03/061903A.shtml

--------

"We were misled," Mr. Dean said. "The question is, did the president do that on purpose or was he misled by his own intelligence people?"

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030623-122726-4425r.htm

--------

''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/206/oped/Dean_won_t_let_Kerry_off_the_hook+.shtml

--------

That's outright deception. Kerry did not say he was fooled. Kerry was saying exactly what Dean was saying - Bush had distorted or lied about evidence - except Dean twisted it in the most underhanded of ways. And, not surprisingly, many of his supporters are parroting his line.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-03 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. it is worse if he was not fooled
Either way he gave Bush a blank check authorization
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Prove that statement
Nothing in the text of the act that gives blank check authorization at all.

Onr problem with Dean supporters is that they follow Deans attempt to lie about the other candidates by making such statements aqbout trhe October Resolution.


There is NOTHING in the act authorizing the president's actions, nor does congress even have the power to limit his actions regarding Iraq.
The act has already been used in court action to get an injuntion to stop the president from acting in Iraq, as the act required that the president could only go to wat in Iraq with U.N. support.

They further argue that none of the legislation passed by Congress in the wake of September 11, including last October's Iraq resolution, confers sufficient authority for the war the President is threatening. The October Resolution - House Joint Resolution 114 - purports to authorize the President to "use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines necessary and appropriate in order to (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq."" Plaintiffs' contention, based on the language and legislative history of the resolution, is that unless narrowly construed, this resolution would be tantamount to congressional abdication of its non-delegable trigger power and would impair separation of powers. And, they contend, such a narrower reading of the statute is plausible, as the statute appears to tie the start of hostilities to the progress of international diplomatic efforts, reflected in the resolutions of the United Nations, to bring Iraq into compliance. Thus, Congress's October Resolution can reasonably be read as expressing three ideas: (1) Congressional support for international diplomacy on the part of the executive; (2) Congressional authority for limited use of force to protect American troops; and (3) the inclination of Congress to provide the necessary assent if the Security Council authorizes the use of force.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew99.php



But in Doe v. Bush the district court declined to join the debate at all. Instead, it opted out of the debate altogether, adopting the Government's position claim that the matter is a non-justiciable political question. Under the political question doctrine, of course, the judiciary declines to wade into certain supposed "political thickets," theoretically leaving the underlying constitutional issue undecided. But, especially given the nature of the debate, invocation of the doctrine - ostensibly to avoid decision - still adds "precedent" to the pro-executive side of the scale. Judicial demurral leaves a vacuum that the executive will fill on its own terms - thereby creating new facts to support its exclusivity claim. The executive's evidence that it possesses the trigger power is that it has many times in the past exercised it absent congressional authority and without judicial interference. This is a win-win syllogism for unchecked executive authority: its use of the power is an unreviewable political prerogative and, ipso facto, proof of its legitimacy, and so the evidence in its favor is infinitely accumulative.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew99.php


http://pacer.mad.uscourts.gov/dc/cgi-bin/recentops.pl?filename=tauro/pdf/iraqappendix.pdf



The attempt of the Dean camp to utilize this act to blame other candides as giving the president a blank check for the war nas no legal basis whatsoever.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. I will try to give you
a more substantive response later but you did a pet peeve of mine. Don't put quotes around words when the person didn't use them. You put quotes around the word fooled when you said this:

I notice too may people saying that Kerry was "fooled"

Then you supply a bunch of quotes that don't use that word. The press did this an awful lot to Gore. You usually don't play that game.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I Looked Everywhere For It
I was quoting someone that posted in another thread (that prompted me to create this one). Sorry for the confusion.

Wondering what you think of Dean's own "misled" quote.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well Mr. Multilateral must have changed his tune, then
when he didn't support the Byrd amendment to war authorization which would have required a UN resolution.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Can you show me the amendment?
Because this sounds more like the Biden-Lugar proposal. The resolution put before Kerry was negotiated mainly by Gephardt (House) and Lieberman (Senate). They killed the two-stage proposals.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. 4868, 4869 from thomas
You can find the amendments via thomas.

Here's the page (S10228) with the text of the ammendments.

SA 4868. Mr. BYRD submitted an amendment intended to be proposed to amendment SA 4856 proposed by Mr. LIEBERMAN (for himself, Mr. WARNER, Mr. BAYH, Mr. MCCAIN, Ms. LANDRIEU, Mr. MCCONNELL, Mr. MILLER, Mr. DOMENICI, Mr. EDWARDS, Mr. HUTCHINSON, Mr. JOHNSON, Mr. ALLARD, Mr. BAUCUS, Mr. HELMS, Mr. BUNNING, Mr. LOTT, Mr. SHELBY, Mr. THOMPSON, and Mr. NICKLES) to the joint resolution S.J. Res. 45, to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq ; as follows:

At the appropriate place, insert the following:

SEC. 5. STATUTORY CONSTRUCTION.

Nothing in this joint resolution --

(1) is intended to alter the constitutional authorities of the Congress to declare war, grant letters of Marque and Reprisal, or other authorities invested in Congress by Section 8, Article 1 of the Constitution; or

(2) shall be construed as granting any authority to the President to use the United States Armed Forces for any purpose not directly related to a clear threat of imminent, sudden, and direct attack upon the United States, its possessions or territories, or the Armed Forces of the United States, unless the Congress of the United States otherwise authorizes.



SA 4869. Mr. BYRD submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by him to the joint resolution S.J. Res. 45, to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq ; which was ordered to lie on the table; as follows:

At the appropriate place, insert the following:

SEC. 5. TERMINATION OF THE AUTHORIZATION FOR THE USE OF THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL.--The authorization in section 3(a) shall terminate 12 months after the date of enactment of this joint resolution , except that the President may extend, for a period or periods of 12 months each, such authorization if--

(1) the President determines and certifies to Congress for each such period, not later that 60 days before the date of termination of the authorization, that the extension is necessary for ongoing or impending military operations against Iraq under section 3(a); and

(2) the Congress does not enact into law, before the extension of the authorization, a joint resolution disapproving the extension of the authorization for the additional 12-month period.

(b) CONGRESSIONAL REVIEW PROCEDURES.--

(1) IN GENERAL.--For purposes of subsection (a)(2), a joint resolution described in paragraph (2) shall be considered in the Senate and the House of Representatives in accordance with the procedures applicable to joint resolutions under paragraphs (3) through (8) of section 8066(c) of the Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 1985 (as contained in Public Law 98-473; 98 Stat. 1936-1937), except that--

(A) references in those provisions to the Committee on Appropriations of the House of Representatives shall be deemed to be references to the Committee on International Relations of the House of Representatives; and

(B) references in those provisions to the Committee on Appropriations of the Senate shall be deemed to be references to the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate.

(2) JOINT RESOLUTION DEFINED.--For purposes of paragraph (1), the term ``joint resolution'' means only a joint resolution introduced after the date on which the certification of the President under subsection (a)(1) is received by Congress, the matter after the resolving clause of which is as follows: ``That, pursuant to section 5 of the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq , the Congress disapproves the extension of the authorization under section 3(a) of that joint resolution for the additional 12-month period specified in the certification of the President to the Congress dated __.'', with the blank filled in with the appropriate date.



The debate in which Kerry et al. sat on 4868 starts on page S10167. You can read Kerry's views there. Byrd's come the following day(pp. S10235-36):

Mr. President, 38 years ago I, ROBERT C. BYRD, voted on the Tonkin Gulf Resolution--the resolution that authorized the President to use military force to ``repel armed attacks'' and ``to prevent further Communist aggression'' in Southeast Asia.

It was this resolution that provided the basis for American involvement in the war in Vietnam.

It was the resolution that lead to the longest war in American history.

It led to the deaths of 58,000 Americans, and 150,000 Americans being wounded in action.

It led to massive protests, a deeply divided country, and the deaths of more Americans at Kent State.

It was a war that destroyed the Presidency of Lyndon Johnson and wrecked the administration of Richard Nixon.

After all that carnage, we began to learn that, in voting for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, we were basing our votes on bad information. We learned that the claims the administration made on the need for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution were simply not true, and history is repeating itself.

We tragically and belatedly learned that we had not taken enough time to consider the resolution. We had not asked the right questions, nor enough questions. We learned that we should have been demanding more hard evidence from the administration rather than accepting the administration at its word.

But it was too late.

For all those spouting jingoes about going to war with Iraq, about the urgent need for regime change no matter what the cost, about the need to take out the evil dictator--and make no mistakes, I know and understand that Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator--I urge Senators to go down on The Capital Mall and look at the Vietnam memorial. Nearly every day you will find someone at that wall weeping for a loved one, a father, a son, a brother, a friend, whose name is on that wall.

If we are fortunate, a war with Iraq will be a short one with few American deaths, as in the Persian Gulf war, and we can go around again waving flags and singing patriotic songs.

Or, maybe we will find ourselves building another wall on the mall.

I will always remember the words of Senator Wayne Morse, one of the two Senators who opposed the Tonkin Gulf Resolution. During the debate on the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, he stated: ``The resolution will pass, and Senators who vote for it will live to regret it.''

Many Senators did live to regret it.

The Tonkin Gulf Resolution contained a sunset provision to end military action. S.J. Res. 46 will allow the President to continue war for as long as he wants, against anyone he wants as long he feels it will help eliminate the threat posed by Iraq.

With the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, Congress could ``terminate'' military action. With S.J. Res. 46 , only the President can terminate military action.

I should point out that the Tonkin Gulf Resolution and S.J. Res. 46 do have several things in common. Congress is again being asked to vote on the use of force without hard evidence that the country poses an immediate threat to the national security of the United States. We are being asked to vote on a resolution authorizing the use of force in a hyped up, politically charged atmosphere in an election year. Congress is again being rushed into a judgment.

This is why I stand here today, before this Chamber, and before this Nation, urging, pleading for some sanity, for more time to consider this resolution, for more hard evidence on the need for this resolution.

Before we put this great Nation on the track to war, I want to see more evidence, hard evidence, not more Presidential rhetoric. In support of this resolution, several people have pointed out that President Kennedy acted unilaterally in the Cuban missile crisis. That is true. I remember that. I was here. I also remember President Kennedy going on national television and showing proof of the threat we faced. I remember him sending our UN ambassador, Adlai Stevenson, to the United Nations, to provide proof to the world that there was a threat to the national security of the United States.

All we get from this administration is rhetoric. In fact, in an address to our NATO colleagues, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, according to the Chicago Tribune, urged our allies to resist the idea for the need of absolute proof about terrorists intent before they took action.

Before we unleash what Thomas Jefferson called the ``dogs of war,'' I want to know, have we exhausted every avenue of peace? My favorite book does not say, blessed are the war makers. It says: ``Blessed are the peacemakers.'' Have we truly pursued peace?

If the need for taking military action against Iraq is so obvious and so needed and so urgent, then why are nearly every one of our allies opposed to it? Why is the President on the phone nearly every day trying to convince our allies to join us?

So many people, so many nations in the Arab world already hate and fear us. Why do we want them to hate and fear us even more?

People are correct to point out that September 11 changed everything. We need to be more careful. We need to build up our intelligence efforts and our homeland security. But do we go around pounding everybody, anybody, who might pose a threat to our security? If we clobber Iraq today, do we clobber Iran tomorrow?

When do we attack China? When do we attack North Korea? When do we attack Syria?

Unless I can be shown proof that these distant nations do pose an immediate, serious threat to the national interests and security of the United States, I think we should finish our war on terrorism. I think we should destroy those who destroyed the Trade Towers and attacked the Pentagon. I think we should get thug No. 1 before we worry about thug No. 2.

Yes, September 11 changed many aspects of our lives, but people still bleed. America's mothers will still weep for their sons and their daughters who will not come home.

September 11 should have made us more aware of the pain that comes from being attacked. We, more than ever, are aware of the damage, the deaths, and the suffering that comes from violent attacks.

....

This is what we are about to do to other countries. We are about to inflict this horrible suffering upon other people.

Of course, we do not talk about this. We talk about taking out Saddam Hussein. We are talking about taking out Iraq, about ``regime change.''

I do not want history to remember my country as being on the side of evil.

During the Civil War, a minister expressed his hope to President Lincoln that the Lord was on the side of the North. The Great Emancipator reportedly rebuked the minister stating:

It is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation are on the Lord's side.

Before I vote for this resolution for war, a war in which thousands, perhaps tens of thousands or hundred of thousands of people may die, I want to make sure that I and this Nation are on God's side.

I want more time. I want more evidence. I want to know that I am right, that our Nation is right, and not just powerful.

And I want the language that is in this amendment so that Congress can oversee this power grab and act to terminate it at some point in time--giving the President the opportunity to extend the time but let's keep Congress in the act.

Senators, vote for this amendment. I plead with you.


* * ** *** ** * *

More from pp.10246-48

Mr. BYRD. Madam President, a point I want to make about this discussion that ensued after the statement was made by the distinguished Senator from Minnesota: There were references made to Public Law 105-235, August 14, 1998. Here is the resolving clause which has been quoted by the distinguished Republican whip:

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, . .....

That the government of Iraq is in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations, and therefore the President is urged to take appropriate action in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations. Approved August 14, 1998.

Well, so what? What does that prove? What does that prove? Somebody tell me. Let's read it again. The resolving clause says that the Government of Iraq is in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations. That is okay. But get this: And therefore the President is urged to take appropriate action.

What does that mean? There is nothing definitive about that. That is ambiguous. It is not contemporaneous with today's question. It is ambiguous. It is vague. What would that prove in a court if the Supreme Court of the United States were to take this up? What would those who read this piece of junk maintain that this says? It is plain. The President is urged--well, what does that mean, ``urged''?--to take appropriate action. What is that? That is not a declaration of war. What is that? What does that mean, ``to take appropriate action''? Well, you can guess, I can guess, he can guess, he can guess. Anybody can guess.

``Urges the President to take appropriate action in accordance with the Constitution . .....'' Now, that is fine. It is in accordance with the Constitution. Then that would say that Congress has the power to declare war.

``In accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations.'' What is he supposed to do? What is the President being urged to do to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations? Anybody's guess. Why, surely this great country of ours is not going to be able to launch a war on the basis of that ambiguous and vague language.

I wish those who are continuing to refer to this Public Law 105-235 and the so-called relevant U.N. resolutions would explain what they mean. I hear that over and over again. In connection with the resolution that is before this Senate today, it refers to all relevant U.N. Security Council resolutions. ``All relevant . .....'' What does that mean? And they keep referring to 660 and 678 and 687. I would like to discuss those resolutions with those who will do so. I hope they come on the floor. Where are they? Where are these men of great strength? Let them come to the floor. I want to debate with them these so-called resolutions.

In this resolution that is before the Senate, S.J. Res. 46, it refers to relevant resolutions. They keep talking about the relevant resolutions. What resolutions are they talking about enforcing? Are they talking about 660? Are they talking about 678? No. 678 was adopted on November 29, 1990. Is that what they are talking about? U.N. Resolution 687 was the enforcement resolution. That was the resolution that authorized the member states to act to uphold Resolution No. 660. But that conferring of authorization was wiped out. No. 678 was wiped out by 687 when Iraq contacted the Security Council and accepted 687. It was wiped out. So I am prepared to argue that. I do not want to do it on my flimsy 1 hour, but I am prepared.

I have heard the Senator from Connecticut--he is not in the Chamber right now, but he will be back. I have heard him and others refer to the so-called relevant resolutions. They have been wiped out. They are gone, and no single member state can revive them. They were extinguished on April 6, 1991, when Iraq signified to the Security Council that it accepted the terms of 687.

Now we can talk about that at a later time. I would love to get into it. I would like to get into a discussion on that, but for now, suffice it to say, what I am saying is this resolution we are talking about would accept as fact certain things that are not facts--this blank check we have been talking about that we are going to turn over to this President of the United States, the power to determine when, where, how, and for how long he will use the military forces of the United States.

It is flimsy. That resolution is full of holes. The whereas clauses are full of holes. Now they have been wiped out by unanimous consent so they are no longer ``whereas'' but ``since.'' It is flimsy. Full of holes. Ambiguities. Statements of facts that are not facts. I am ready to debate that at any time.

....
Mr. BYRD. I hope Senators will show an abundance of mercy before the day is over and perhaps give me some more time.

Mr. President, this week the Senate is considering a very important resolution. The language of this resolution has been touted as a bipartisan compromise that addresses the concerns of both the White House and the Democratic leadership in Congress. But the only thing that I see being compromised in this resolution is this Constitution of the United States, which I hold in my hand, and the power that Constitution gives to Congress to declare war. This resolution we are considering is a dangerous step toward a government in which one man at the other end of this avenue holds in his hand the power to use the world's most powerful military force in whatever manner he chooses, whenever he chooses, wherever he chooses, and wherever he perceives a threat against national security.

The Bush administration has announced a new security doctrine that advocates acting preemptively to head off threats to U.S. national security. Much has been said about the diplomatic problem with this doctrine. But we should also recognize that the administration's new approach to war may also pose serious problems for our own constitutional system.

In the proposed use-of-force resolution, the White House lawyers claim ``the President has authority under the Constitution to use force in order to defend the national security interests of the United States.''

It says no such thing. I dare them to go to the Constitution and point out where that Constitution says what they say it said. They cannot do it. I know the job of any good lawyer--I have never been a practicing lawyer, but I know the job of a good lawyer is to craft legal interpretations that are most beneficial to the client. But for the life of me, I cannot find any basis for such a broad, expansive interpretation in the interpretation of the Constitution of the United States. Find it. Show it to me. You can't do it.

Where in the Constitution is it written that the title of Commander in Chief carries with it the power to decide unilaterally whether to commit the resources of the United States to war? Show it to me, lawyers, lawyers of the White House, or lawyers in this body. Show it.

There is a dangerous agenda, believe me, underlying these broad claims by this White House. The President is hoping to secure power under the Constitution that no President has ever claimed before. Never. He wants the power--the Bush administration wants that President to have power to launch this Nation into war without provocation and without clear evidence of an imminent attack on the United States. And we are going to be foolish enough to give it to him. I never thought I would see the day in these 44 years I have been in this body, never did I think I would see the day when we would cede this kind of power to any President. The White House lawyers have redefined the President's power under the Constitution to repel sudden acts against the United States. And he has that power, to repel sudden, unforeseen attacks against the United States, against its possessions, its territories, and its Armed Forces.

But they suggest he could also justify military action whenever there is a high risk of a surprise attack. That Constitution, how they would love to stretch it to give this President that power which he does not have. Those White House lawyers would have us believe that the President has independent authority not only to repel attacks but to prevent them. How silly. You cannot find it in that Constitution.

The White House wants to redefine the President's implied power under the Constitution to repel sudden attacks, suggesting that the realities of the modern world justify preemptive military action whenever there is a high risk of a surprise attack. What in the world are they teaching in law school these days? What are they teaching? I never heard of such as that when I was in law school. Of course I had to go at night. I had to go 10 years to get my law degree. In the national security strategy released last week, a few days ago, the President argued--let me tell you what the President argued--we must adapt the concept of imminent threat to the capabilities of today's adversary. Get that.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld echoed this sentiment when he told the Senate Armed Services Committee: I suggest that any who insist on perfect evidence are back in the 20th century and still thinking in pre-9/11 years.

What a profound statement that was. How profound. Perhaps the Secretary of Defense ought to go back to law school, too. I don't believe he was taught that in law school.

The President does not want to shackle his new doctrine of 20th century ideas of war and security, much less any outdated notion from the 18th century about how this Republic should go to war. The Bush administration thinks the Constitution, with its inefficient separation of powers and its cumbersome checks and balances--they are cumbersome--has become an anachronism in a world of international terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.

They say it is too old. This Constitution, which I hold in my hand, is an anachronism. It is too old. It was all right back in the 19th century. It was all right in the 20th century. But we are living in a new time, a new age. There it is, right up there, inscribed, ``Novus ordo seclorum.'' A new order of the ages. New order of the ages.

This modern President does not have time for old-fashioned political ideas that complicate his job of going after the bad guys single-handedly.

And make no mistake, the resolution we are considering will allow the President to go it alone at every stage of the process. It will be President Bush, by himself, who defines the national security interests of the United States. It will be President Bush, by himself, who identifies threats to our national security. It will be President Bush, by himself, who decides when those threats justify a bloody and costly war. And it will be President Bush, by himself, who determines what the objectives of such a war should be, and when it should begin and when it should end.

The most dangerous part of this modernized approach to war is the wide latitude the President will have to identify which threats present a ``high risk'' to national security. The administration's National Security Strategy briefly outlines a few common attributes shared by dangerous ``rogue states,'' but the administration is careful not to confine its doctrine to any fixed set of objective criteria for determining when the threat posed by any one of these states is sufficient to warrant preemptive action.

The President's doctrine--and we are about to put our stamp on it, the stamp of this Senate. The President's doctrine, get this, gives him--Him? Who is he? He puts his britches on just the same way I do. He is a man. I respect his office. But look what we are turning over to this man, one man.

The President's doctrine gives him a free hand to justify almost any military action with unsubstantiated allegations and arbitrary risk assessments.

Even if Senators accept the argument that the United States does not have to wait until it has been attacked before acting to protect its citizens, the President does not have the power to decide when and where such action is justified, especially when his decision is supported only by fear and speculation. The power to make that decision belongs here in Congress. That is where it belongs. That is where this Constitution vests it. The power to make this decision belongs to Congress and Congress alone.

Ultimately, Congress must decide whether the threat posed by Iraq is compelling enough to mobilize this Nation to war. Deciding questions of war is a heavy burden for every Member of Congress. It is the most serious responsibility imposed on us by the Constitution. We should not shrink from our duty to provide authority to the President where action is needed. But just as importantly, we should not shrink from our constitutional duty to decide for ourselves whether launching this Nation into war is an appropriate response to the threats facing our people--those people looking, watching this debate through that electronic lens there. They are the ones who will have to suffer. It is their sons and daughters whose blood will be spilled. Our ultimate duty is not to the President. They say: Give the President the benefit of the doubt. Why, how sickening that idea is. Our ultimate duty is not to the President of the United States. I don't give a darn whether he is a Democrat or Republican or an Independent--whatever. It makes no difference. I don't believe that our ultimate duty is to him. Our ultimate duty is to the people out there who elected us.

Our duty is not to rubber-stamp the language of the President's resolution, but to honor the text of the Constitution. Our duty is not to give the President a blank check to enforce his foreign policy doctrine, but to exercise our legislative power to protect the national security interests of this Republic.

Our constitutional system was designed to prevent the executive from plunging the Nation into war in the name of contrived ideals and political ambitions. The nature of the threats posed by a sudden attack on the United States may have changed dramatically since the time when Constitution was drafted, but the reasons for limiting the war powers of the President have not changed at all. In fact, the concerns of the Framers are even more relevant. Talk about this being old fashioned. The concerns of the Framers are even more relevant to the dangerous global environment in which our military must now operate, because the consequences of unchecked military action may be more severe for our citizens than ever before.

Congress has the sole power under the Constitution to decide whether the threat posed by Iraq is compelling enough to mobilize this nation to war, and no Presidential doctrine can change that. If President Bush wants our foreign policy to include any military action, whether for preemption, containment, or any other objective, he must first convince Congress that such a policy is in the best interest of the American people.

The amendment I am offering reaffirms the obligation of the Congress to decide whether this country should go to war. It makes clear that Congress retains this power, even in the event that we pass this broad language, which I believe gives the President a blank check to initiate war whenever he wants, wherever he wants, and against any perceived enemy he can link to Iraq. My amendment makes clear that the President has the power to respond to the threat of an imminent, sudden, and direct attack by Iraq against the United States, and that any military action that does not serve this purpose must be specifically authorized by the Congress.

Other Senators have said on the floor that the language of this resolution does not give the President a blank check, and they have said that this resolution is narrowly tailored to Iraq. I do not read the resolution that way, but I hope that the President does. I hope the President reads this resolution as a narrowly crafted authorization to deal with Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and not as an open-ended endorsement of his doctrine of preemptive military action.

We should all hope that the President does not fully exercise his authority under this resolution, and that he does not abuse the imprecise language Congress may ultimately adopt. But I believe that Congress must do more than give the President a blank check and then stand aside and hope for the best. Congress must make clear that this resolution does not affect its constitutional power to declare war under Article I, section 8 of the Constitution; otherwise, this resolution may appear to delegate this important legislative function to the executive

My amendment also clarifies the intent of this resolution is limited to authorizing a military response to the threat of an Iraqi attack upon the United States. Congress must ensure that the broad language of this resolution does not allow the President to use this authority to act outside the boundaries of his constitutional powers. This amendment affirms the constitutional requirement that the President must have congressional authorization before initiating military action for any purpose other than defending the United States against an imminent, sudden, and direct attack. We must not provide the temptation to this President, or any president, to unleash the dogs of war for reasons beyond those anticipated by the Congress.

The power of Congress to declare war is a political check on the President's ability to arbitrarily commit the United States to changing military doctrines, and the evolving nature of war and security threats does not change the language of the Constitution. The President cannot use the uncertainty of terrorist threats to confuse the clearly defined political processes required by the Constitution, and Congress should not rush to endorse a doctrine that will commit untold American resources to unknown military objectives.

The President admits in his National Security Strategy that "America's constitution has served us well.'' But his actions suggest that he feels this service is no longer needed. Congress should ensure that the Constitution continues to serve our national security interests by preventing the United States from plunging headlong into an ever-growing war in the Middle East. I urge my colleagues to support this amendment in order to preserve the constitutional system of checks and balances that the founders of this republic valued so highly.


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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. roll call on 4868
14 yeas, 86 nays

Yeas

Boxer
Byrd
Dayton
Durbin
Feingold
Inouye
Jeffords
Kennedy
Leahy
Mikulski
Murray
Sarbanes
Specter
Wellstone

Nays, the rest.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Yep.
And Murray(WA) keeps voting the good votes. I used to think that she was turning towards the darkside but she has posted some tough votes.

Now, Cantwell(WA), on the other hand....
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Great stuff!
Thank you for that!

Byrd can be a wacky old man sometimes but a lot of the time he is spot on!

He was there for us on this one and most of the dems turned thier backs on him. Shamefull if you ask me!
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. Wow... you disprove your own theory in the same post!
because if he lied he lied to me personally

That is supposedly Kerry's own words.

Main Entry: mis·lead
Pronunciation: "mis-'lEd
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): mis·led /-'led/; -lead·ing
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit
intransitive senses : to lead astray


Means to believe something untrue. Bush said Iraq had chemical weapons and Kerry believed him, as is evidenced by the fact that Kerry said "if he lied".

Whether Kerry would have voted yes had he not been misled is irrelevant. The fact is he WAS misled.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Hopefully My Eyes Will One Day Roll Back Into My Head
Honestly, I have no frickin' idea what you're talking about.

Does anyone - anyone - follow this line of argument?

That's like me saying, "It's raining outside." You believe me until go to the window to check it out. In that span of time, I had you played for a sucker.

So to make a short post shorter, the "irrelevant" part is actually a central reason for the existence of this thread.

Now if you'd care to share your thoughts on Howard Dean's position when he was bamboozled, led astray, run amok...
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Dean on the Iraq invasion immediately before the Iraq resolution vote

Dean, whose advocacy of liberal domestic policies has struck a chord among grass-roots activists here, offered the sharpest dissent. He contended that Bush has yet to make a compelling case to justify going to war.

"The greatest fear I have about Iraq is not just that we will engage in unwise conduct and send our children to die without having an adequate explanation from the president of the United States," he said. "The greater fear I have is the president has never said what the truth is, which is if we go into Iraq we will be there for 10 years to build that democracy and the president must tell us that before we go."

http://www.dre-mfa.gov.ir/eng/iraq/iraqanalysis_27.html

On Sen. Kerry's position: IMHO, he voted for the more board resolution that Sen. Lieberman and Gephardt forced Democrats to accept, with their Rose Guarden photo-op with Bush*, because he didn't think that he would be able to explain a vote against the resolution to most voters. And he hoped that the politically well-informed branch of the Democratic base would forgive him for the vote in light of his years of work for Democratic policy.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. You really have a comprehension problem if you are unable to understand...
I mean, I posted the definition of misled!

The point is, your analogy is wrong because the act of going to look out the window shows that you did not believe the lie, otherwise you wouldn't have checked would you?

To modify your analogy to be correct, it is like me telling you it is raining outside, and you telling someone else it is raining outside because you believed me, only to be told that the other person had just come from outside and it wasn't raining.

The irrelevant part may be the reason the thread was posted, but it is still irrelevant to the argument made in the thread. As I showed by posting the definition, misled means to believe something that is untrue, either through deliberate or accidental deception. To act on the mistaken belief is irrelevant with regards to the meaning of the word misled, although carrying out a mistaken action can be part of it.

The fact is, Kerry said he believed what Bush had said, and thus Kerry has been misled by Bush. Kerry now says that IF Bush lied then Bush should not be let off the hook. If Kerry hadn't believed Bush, why would he now be questioning whether Bush lied or not? After all, if he never believed Bush, then he would by definition have to believe that Bush lied.

Now, I believe what you are trying to get at is that Dean claimed Kerry had been misled into voting for the war, but the quote you posted does not say that. All it says is that Kerry was misled, and that someone who can be misled may not be the best choice for President.

I showed Kerry WAS misled, and thus Dean's statement is correct, at least as far as being misled goes. Whether a person capable of being misled can still be a fit President is another matter, after all, who can claim to be immune to misleading statements?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Stop Skirting The Issue
Which Dean comment is correct? The one where he said he was misled, or where he said that someone misled isn't fit to serve?

Second, Kerry always said "according to CIA intelligence" when speaking about information after Operation Desert Fox, because it usually came from exiles (an unreliable source for many reasons). He didn't repeat them as truth without quotes. So there goes that BS theory.

So is Dean fit for the Presidency? He said himself - in black and frickin' white - that he was.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. No he doesnt
Are you just blindly friggin anti dean or what?

He said WE were misled. Not I was misslead!

We as in the people. the country, the world.

Stop spinning the issue.

Kerry voted for politics kucinich and graham voted thier beliefs.

The war vote wont stop me from voting dem against bush but it sure as hell will stop me from suporting a candidate in the primaries.

This is an issue i feel strongly about. I was in the streets protesting before the war vote. I was writing my congressmen and others congressmen. I knew the WMD was BS long before that vote and if you were here reading anything on DU so did you!

The sanctions on Iraq were cripling go look at them for the love of god! There is absolutely no way he had a weapons program going of any significance. The fact that kerry didnt know this and voted on one of the most important resolutions of our time in ignorance goes to the heart of the matter of why I wont suport him or any of the other war voters till after the primaries.

Had i been in congress i would have been standing right behind senator Byrd! Not hiding behind bush!

This war was based on lies and manipulation purwe and simple begining to end. Dean stood up against those lie's from the start and stood up loudly. Hell dean is still standing up to the chimp every day loudly!!! The one thing in Kucinich above all others that makes me respect him as a candidate is his seeming willingness to stand up loudly against what he sees as wrong even if everyone else thinks hes a kook! Go Denis stick to your guns!

Kerry is politics as usual as are all that voted for IRW. If I am stuck with a politics as usual vote come 2004 I will vote D till then I dope Dean Kucinich Graham and Sharpton keep sticking that IRW pencil in bushes eye!
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Three Things
1)See post #22.

2)Look at Kerry's 1997 quotes before you talk about expediency.

3)I was in the streets just like you. I almost got trampled by horses on 3rd Avenue. Kerry is not pro-war. He holds the same exact position as Dean, at least when Dean bothered to mention disarmament in February. How is Kerry pro-war, and Dean anti-war for holding the same exact position?
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. How is Kerry pro war?
He voted for it. Actions speak MUCH louder than words.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. But he stamped his foot and insisted that Boooosh go to the UN!
He screamed and he yelled that we must go through the UN.

And then he voted for war.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Simple he voted for it!
Despite you and i and millions of others writing him and other of his mates not to do so. He had the power to stand up and do something about it and he didnt. He meekly went along.

For the thousandth time dean said he didnt suport a war without evidence of an iminent threat. Kerry said please dont go to war without trying not to. Two completely different positions.

The difference is in thier aproach.

kerrys 1997 quotes just show more mealy mouthness if you ask me

"Saddam Hussein cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction." - Kerry, 1997."

WTF is that? Are you trying to tell me you agree with kerry that Saddam was going unobserved and unimpeded? Again i ask you have you looked at what the sanctions entailed? Saddam was hardly unimpeded, Bent over and raped by America is way closer to the truth. Kerry is posturing here and completely full of shit.

"While we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if...we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise." - Kerry, 1997."

I dont even know what hes trying to say here. Could he be any less convinced in his position? He sounds like he is trying to talk someone into the right of the nation to defend itself. Yay for stating the obvious!

From everything ive heard from kerry to date his position, until recently figuring out he might have been misled, seems to have been
The war is the right thing to do. We just need to convince the rest of the world we are right. Well "we" were wrong not only were we wrong we were lying boldfaced lying to the rest of the world. Dean recognized this kerry did not.



Dean says Bush has not prepared U.S. for Iraq attack
September 4, 2002

and this

By MIKE GLOVER The Associated Press
September 7, 2002

DES MOINES, Iowa — President Bush has not justified attacking Iraq, nor has he steeled the American people for the cost of that attack, Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said Wednesday.

And one 2004 Democratic presidential prospect, Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, declared that 'there's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims.' Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

In september! 5 months before you give him credit for it.
Notice the word ONE as in "one 2004 Democratic presidential prospect, Vermont Gov. Howard Dean"

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/52530.html

try again
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Northwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. Let's cut the crap.
First of all let me say that the war vote is not a deal-breaker for me with any candidate. I am not a one-issue voter.

What Kerry, did, as well as many of the other Dems (and probably a few Repubs) who voted yes on the war resolution, was to make a decision on that vote based on political hedging and survival.

If a candidate had voted against that resolution and then we HAD found tons of nerve gas, bio-weapons, and some ready-to-go nukes Iraq, they'd have been dead politically. If they were running for President, that would have killed their campaign, and they would almost certainly lost their Congressional seat in the next election cycle. However, if they vote for it and there turns out to be no weapons and no threat, they can say the President lied to them about the seriousness of the threat. Many who voted yes were just unsure. Saddam, might, in their minds, have had weapons, so they played it safe from a political standpoint. No great principle at stake, just the opportunity to protect their own political future while at the same time possible setting Bush up for "misleading" them.

Graham and Kucinich took a big political risk by voting no. If weapons had been found in the kind of numbers touted, they'd have been dead. Kucinich's campaign would already be over with, as would Graham's and probably Dean's as well. Their gamble paid off very well for them, however, because now they can speak with an undiluted message regarding the war and no one can question them because they criticized it all along. But frankly, I do not think that war vote will hurt Kerry all that much.

This kind of positioning and seemingly cynical decision making go on all the time in Washington. Deal with it.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You Cut The Wrong Turd
Kerry in 1997:

“Saddam Hussein cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this Nation.”

“While we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise.”

How has he changed since then? What political expediency are you talking about? The only one flip-flopping has been Dean, who was for containment until he got enough legitimacy, then came around to Kerry's way of thinking. Dean did not utter the word "disarmament" before February.

Personally, I take on up front guy who calls it straight from the beginning, not according to the audience.

PS - Graham hedged his "no" vote by saying it wasn't militant enough. Hardly an anti-war vote.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You're kidding, right?
SH was the most-observed and most-impeded man on planet Earth.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. What Are You Talking About?
There was ZERO hard intelligence about Iraq between Desert Fox and the time the small group of UN inspectors hit the ground. It was all satellite photos and the testimony of exiles like Chalabi.

How was he impeded? Sanctions? I honestly don't know what you are talking about.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Well, let's see, off the top of my head....
Sanctions.
2/3 of country under no-fly zones.
Satellites.
The armed forces of the most powerful country the world has ever seen perched on the bodies of water that surround his country.
Surrounded by more powerful militaries in the East(Iran), the North (Turkey), the West(Syria) and the South(SA). Post GW1.
Weapons inspectors. They were back in before we went to war.
>>>....
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yes...but...
Most of these cynical decisions effect people's livelihoods, not their lives.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. I Have Yet To Hear Anyone Address The Dean Quotes
"We were misled," Mr. Dean said. "The question is, did the president do that on purpose or was he misled by his own intelligence people?"

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030623-122726-4425r.htm

''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/206/oped/Dean_won_t_let_Kerry_off_the_hook+.shtml
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It's the holistic "we."
As in "WE went to war with Iraq because our Congress was misled."

Now, you and I did't go to war in Iraq, but we did. Comprende?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Rummy, I Respect You But You're Wrong
The quote comes from Meet The Press.

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president. It turns out that what the president was saying and what his administration's saying wasn't so. We don't know why that is. So...

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled. Now, the question is did the president do that on purpose?

Was he misled by his own intelligence people? Was he misled by the people around us? Or did he, in fact, know what the truth was and tell us something different.

I've called for an independent investigation headed by Republicans and Democrats who are well respected in the country to find out what the president did know and when he knew it.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9

---------------

That is EXACTLY Kerry's position. Exactly. And yet in less than a month (6/22/03 to 7/25/03) Dean changed his tune quite a bit:

''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

That is dishonest.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Before I answer...
Answer me this:

When the war rhetoric was ramping up, did you think that it was bullshit? I did. Millions of people across the world did and marched on their respective cities (I did it in Seattle). Dean did, not unlike millions of others.

Kerry didn't.

Question: Did you think it was bullshit? And if you did, why didn't Kerry?

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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Kerry Said "If" and Dean Didn't - Who Was The Fool?
''I will not let him off the hook throughout this campaign with respect to America's credibility and credibility to me, because if he lied he lied to me personally,'' he said.

Addressing senior citizens in Hanover later in the evening, Kerry said he supported a congressional investigation because it was not clear whether Bush acted on poor, distorted or politicized intelligence.

"I don"t have the answer," he said. "I want the answer and the American people deserve the answer. I will get to the bottom of this."

-----------

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president. It turns out that what the president was saying and what his administration's saying wasn't so. We don't know why that is. So...

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled.

----------

Rummy your post is a bald-faced evasion. Lots of people marched, including myself, but that is not the issue and you know it. Dean claimed he had, in fact, been misled, but less than a month later attacked the other candidates for that same reason. There are words for people that do that.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. if you marched....
why do support someone who gave blank check authorization to Bush?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Because Dean Is Kerry-Lite On Foreign Policy
Dean supported the same course of action as Kerry - disarmament backed by the threat of multilateral force. Kerry was upfront about it, while Dean failed to mention his full position until February.

Compare Dean's foreign policy speech at Drake to Kerry's at Georgetown. Dean is playing checkers and Kerry is playing chess. Not only does Kerry have more depth, knowledge, and vision, but he also opposes Palestinian unilateral concessions and the building of the massive fortress around Israel. Even Bush is against the wall.

In Dean's speeches, he fails to lay out a plan for draining the swamps of terrorists. He only focuses on Iraq and North Korea, laying out the same exact policies Kerry advocated before 9/11. The rest he speaks in vague generalities about building coalitions and such - lightweight versions of what Kerry has always advocated.

Perhaps that is why Rand Beers chose Kerry over Dean.

I like Dean because at least he is a lightweight version of Kerry's policies. But that is no substitute for the real thing. If you ever want to debate real policies, instead of whining about the IWR that Dean never voted for, let me know - and we'll see which candidate wins the Pepsi challenge.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I can understand why you chose Kerry over Dean.
I'm just surprised that you chose someone who gave Bush the authority, that's all.

I like Kerry. I think that he is intelligent and courageous.
I wanted Kerry to run in 2000, and when he didn't, I wanted Gore to choose him as his VP. I think Kerry would have kicked Cheney's ass in the VP debate.

But if I can, I'm going to vote for someone who opposed the Patriot Act and the war.

If Kerry is the nominee, he has my vote.

My only truly reluctant vote is for Lieberman. I'll still vote for him, but I'll be depressed.



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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Believe Me, I Wasn't Happy About It
But I respect Kerry's consistency. If I felt he had voted out of expediency, I wouldn't support him. I think he was put in a tough position and did what he thought was best. He was very upset that Biden-Lugar was undercut by Gephardt and Lieberman.

We would be having very different discussions today if they hadn't. For one thing, we probably would not have invaded. And another, Kerry wouldn't seem to be on both sides of the fence for supporting a)disarmament, and b)multilateral inspections to avoid invasion.

I understand why you support Dean. I'm not here to bash Dean, but I get very upset when he distorts Kerry's positions. Because Kerry really is an excellent candidate and I wish they could go toe to toe honestly on issues that matter to us.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Don't get me started about Gephardt..........
One thing I do want to make clear....The only reason I reacted so strongly yesterday to the Gore joke was that I have always liked Kerry, and I really hated the tone of the Repub campaign in 2000.

If Gephardt or Lieberman had done it, I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

I am glad to see that we are definitely on the same side
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Sometimes It Is Easy To Lose Perspective
Like arguing which angel is better prepared to take on the devil. Although, let's be honest, politicians should not be mistaken for angels.;-)
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Bush was misleading the public and Congress. No shit.
Dean says "I think we were misled."

Who is we? Us. Everyone. Millions knew it at the time. Millions marched. Millions still don't believe that we were misled. Yes, "we" were misled. "I" wasn't. You say that you were marching, so "you" weren't misled either. But "we" were misled.

Look, Dean is definately tiptoeing around this thing, make no doubt. However, he was quite vocal in opposition when it wasn't politically expedient to do so. I think that that proves the point. Kerry made a great speech and then surprisingly voted for it. Words and votes. I know which one speaks louder to me. And it "goes to 11" when you add in a couple of other votes. Has Dean been disengenuous on his stance? Yeah, probably. Did he have any effect on whether we went to war? No. Was Kerry disingenuous on his stance? Yeah, probably. Did he have any effect on whether we went to war? Yes. And that my friend is the crux of the matter. No one said it was fair.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Proves The Point?
First of all, are you saying "we" were misled or "we" weren't misled? I know which category Dean says he was in.

Dean is not "tiptoeing." He said he was misled then hypocritically attacked anyone who said they were misled - except himself. Sounds a little like his stand on public financing.

Second - if votes speak louder than votes, then Dean must be absolutely silent. Dean is the only one saying he voted "no." Other than that, he has been nothing but words.

And if Dean did have the vote he said he had - would he have any effect on whether we went to war?

Fianlly - which votes "go to 11?" The ones where Dean scrapped Vermont's public financing system (rather than reform it) or the one where he agreed to unilateral concessions from the Palestinians and building the Israeli wall?

The crux of the matter is that Dean and Kerry are relatively close in their positions, but Dean tries to distance himself through underhanded trafficking in distortions and lies.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Let's cut through the crap!
IWR Roll Call:

RiF= No

DrFunkenstein= No

Kerry= Yes

Do you see a disconnect here?


("Goes to 11" section)

Patriot Act Roll Call:

RiF= No

DrFunkenstein= No

Kerry= Yes

Homeland Security Roll Call:

RiF= No

DrFunkenstein= No

Kerry= Yes

$350b Tax Cut Roll Call:

Rif= No

DrFunkenstein= No

Kerry= Yes


"One of These Things Is Not Like The Other"

One of these sounds is not like the others,
One of these sounds doesn't belong.
Can you tell which sound is not like the others
By the time we finish our song.

Did you guess which sound was not like the others?
Did you guess which sound doesn't belong?
If you guessed this sound is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!



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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I've Made My Peace With These Votes
We could argue about the contextual details, but I don't think either of us is going to change our minds. Let's leave it at that. I'm glad you admitted that Dean has been disingenuous, and I'm big enough to say that Kerry has been less than vociferous at times criticizing Bush's decision to rush into war. Which won't stop me from getting on Dean's case for distortion, or stop you from kicking Kerry's ass for his IWR vote. C'est la guerre.

<>
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. You're mincing words
and grasping at straws.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-16-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. at least he's not mincing straws.....
and grasping at words.
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