Is Dean a chickenhawk

As a vet, I would like to know, if Dean is a chickenhawk.

.

Dean is not a hawk -- nor a dove -- and thus not a chickenhawk.

Moreover, lots of vets (most) just voted for one in 2000, so I'm not sure it matters, unfortunately.

It's like they slit their own throats. The damage bush adminstration has done to veterns benefits is terrible. "Support your troops and screw 'em when they get home"

And screw them while they are still in harms way as it seems they are willing to do by reducing hazerdous duty/family serperation pay. Can't seem to afford it but they were ablt to afford tax cuts. I guess it's a matter of priorities. Hopefuly the military/pro-Republican sentiment is shifting.

1992: Bill Clinton (non-vet) defeated George W. Bush (vet)
1996: Bill Clinton (non-vet) defeated Bob Dole (vet)
2000: George H.W. Bush (occasional Texas Air Nat'l Guard) "defeated" Al Gore (U.S. Army in Vietnam, press officer)

On edit: Don't forget Max Cleland, who gave some body parts in sacrifice during the Vietnam War. Max lost to chickenhawk Saxby Chambliss in Georgia, where this stuff is supposed to matter.

Not exactly a winning streak for veterans. I'm wondering when conventional wisdom catches up with reality.

Poppy is George HW, Junior is W.

Both are still bastards though.

and report back to us? HUH???????????????

he didn't participate in the genocide of the Vietnamese?

Better a draft dodger than war criminals like Senator Waffe/Clark.

Dean was not a "dodger"--he was excused for medical reasons.

I wouldn't have any problems what so ever.

And I am glad that Bill didn't go fight it.

But here goes with a bare bones replay

Dean went in for his Military physical and refused due to fused vertebrae (he's unable to run due to this)

His brother was in SE Asia, later captured and killed as a spy
Dean has spoken of this in biographical notices
There is some question as to whether his brother worked for the Agency etc.

Hope this helps

Link:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030811/nhoward2.html

(snip)
Though he says he "didn't do much protesting," Dean opposed the Vietnam War. So it was fortunate that officials at the U.S. Army garrison at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn gave him a deferment because of a minor back problem. Dean has an unfused vertebra that keeps him from running long distances and occasionally leads to discomfort.
(snip)

:kick:

Sign up and ask the other vets -

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=community_veterans

since chicken hawks are usally those who somehow avoided military service (it could be legitimately avoided) yet once they get in office they usually advocate military action.

Dean was excused for medical service in a legitimate way and on the central issue of the invasion of Iraq--he was opposed. Can't see how this would make him a chicken hawk?

and I see them accussing Cheney, O'reilly, etc. for being chickenhawks for getting deferments.

.... now believe that wars of agression against nations that are not in any way a realistic threat to the United States of America, are a good thing, because as rich politicians and/or FAUX propagandists in their 50's and 60's, they won't have to fight such wars. Cheney's comments on his deferments ("I had better things to do") are the epitome of chickenhawkism.

Based on some of his statements to the press and his deep relationship with AIPAC, Dean appears to be very hawkish when it comes to the Mideast. Aside from these views, he is the most 'palatable' candidate among the frontrunners.

Many of us need to see a change in his Mideast stance before we can ever support him. There is a petition to Howard Dean to clarify statements he has made regarding the Mideast and his relationship to AIPAC. Please sign if you agree!

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/deanpetition/

I heard he never served and was curious when I saw him run up a flight of stairs in Oklahoma last week. He seemed fit and well enough to run up a flight of stairs to meet the press. He talked about being in Yale from 1967 to 1971.

I just wanted to know. Thanks for your answers.

Crank it up Clark, please jump into this race.

the real reason for this post. I was wondering when it would come out.

Crank it up Clark, please jump into this race.

ONE more time. He reported for his physical and the GOVERNMENT established he was not physically capable of serving. Now, if you want to post that link of Dean "running up a flight of stairs," I'd be interested in seeing it. I'm not sure what the hell the Yale reference was for. Pointy-headed "librul" slant perhaps? :crazy:

...and "asking" the same thing again after a little while, and again, and then with a different "new, curious" username again, and again, just like all the "questions" about Dean are being "asked" here again and again. :-)

"and "asking" the same thing again after a little while, and again, and then with a different "new, curious" username again, and again, just like all the "questions" about Dean are being "asked" here again and again."

I post under one name. Only one name. I don't post vrey often, but have been here for a couple of years.

...all the recent posts about just this issue, where people have replied with the facts to obsessed, freepy Dean haters who keep posting this same lie again and again? Yeah, right. :eyes: :eyes:

...all the recent posts about just this issue, where people have replied with the facts to obsessed, freepy Dean haters who keep posting this same lie again and again? Yeah, right. :eyes: :eyes:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I rarely come into this forum. In fact I think it's the first time I posted here. I usually post in the Genral discusion or military matters.

So yes, I missed any past or old postings on Dean's background.

If you want to call me a liar, do so....don't be a chickenhawk that beats around the bush or waits for someone else to take up the fight for you.

...so that he can run and whine to the moderators. No thanks, I have already at least a warning coming from replying to "Drfunkensteins" obvious and outright lie below...

So many have slipped past you, I can't keep track. Is it the one where you represent the snarky, humorless, and hypocritical wing of the Democratic Party?

"the real reason for this post. I was wondering when it would come out."

I had a real question. I didn't know. Go get some new tinfoil for your hat. There was only one reason for the post, I didn't know the answer.
=============================================
"Now, if you want to post that link of Dean "running up a flight of stairs," I'd be interested in seeing it."

There is no link. I saw him run up the stairs myself. I was an eye witness.
=============================================

"I'm not sure what the hell the Yale reference was for. Pointy-headed "librul" slant perhaps? "

I have always been proud to be a liberal.

someone who never served in the military yet is among the loudest voices promoting wars that others have to fight and die in.

This is one reason I at least respect Kerry's Iraq vote: he's been in combat. I don't think he made his vote lightly.

Check out Dean's attacks on Bush and the invasion of Iraq (both before the invasion and now. I know a lot of post-invasion stuff is on his site). He's no chickenhawk.

And, while I have nothing against Clark, just because he's a general in the army doesn't make him automatically "one of us". Powell certainly proves that.

Finally, if there's a problem with Dean not serving during Vietnam, take it up with the Army doctor who said he couldn't be called up unless there was a national emergency.

hmmmm....."one of us".

Clark wears the same CIB and Silver Star that I wear. He's one of us.

but point taken.

And I'll say it again: I have nothing against Clark. I'd like to hear more about what he wants to do in the context of officially being a candidate, but that sounds like that will be a reality soon enough.

I think, however, it isn't fair to lable Dean a chickenhawk. Unless I'm mistaken, he reported for his physical during Vietnam when called and the Army doc said he couldn't serve. If that's not true, I would like for someone to show me, because I would have trouble supporting someone who lies about that. But until I see that proof, I take Dean at his word.

It's a serious question--

I was speaking w/ my father about him last night (my Dad's a Repub who won't vote for Bush)

He didn't know about the Clark possibility-- he was 100% aghast and against it. BTW-- my dad's retired army, 30 yrs, 2 tours in Vietnam, full bird etc.

He basically stated--the guy isn't political material, and he's barely military material.

It made me sit back and think

Before people start slinging (especially Clark supporters) let me ask you:

What do you know, really know, about his military career? What do those in his generation w/i the military think? His colleagues? Peers?

I ask because there's been a lot said on these boards about the military, much of it complete horseshit based upon vague generalities and knee jerk reactions. BTW--this comes from both sides of the fence
Examples:
"Military figures = good for defense"
"Democrats need to have military credentials to be taken seriously"
"Powell would be good for the ticket, if he'd only change"

All of these views are complete hogwash--they are based on stereotypes and are hence inaccurate--and being inaccurate they are dangerous strategically.

I say this as someone who grew up in a military family with three older brothers who went in, served and have since left (one who retired after 20+ years) Say what you will, but I have the inside scoop. I actually went down the ROTC path, but was so disgusted with the Rambo mentality where I was at, that I opted out. The Lt. who I spoke w/ when I gave my decision asked me about it-- I said simply--these guys and gals don't have a clear picture of what the military is about--they're in it for all the wrong reasons, etc. etc. He agreed and said that it's an ongoing problem.

My point is-- Clark should not be deemed viable or not based upon his military credentials.

Now--I know this message will get lost in the melee--but hell, I had to pipe up.

Best,

MS

he went skiing for a couple years after college. His back wasn't that bad.

He was given a deferment at age 18. He would of served.Whats a kid supposte to say; "Oh no let me in please!"

His brother died in Laos...It's not like they looked for a way around things.

He elected to serve humanity and society is another way; he became a physician.

Who gives military duty as the only as a pre-requisite?

I hate pigeon-hole brains.

:nuke:

"He elected to serve humanity and society is another way; he became a physician. "

Oh cry me a river. I wish I had stayed, become a doctor, and make a million. I went to Nam, got shot up, and protest every war since then.

Big difference.

Dean said he was a vociferous supporter of every war in the last thousand years except Iraq. And he choose not to serve. I suppose that techically makes him a chickenhawk, but I wouldn't really go there. I see Kerry's service as a plus for him, not a minus for Dean. I certainly wouldn't have volunteered. In fact, I probably would have resisted the draft.

But I think Bush is a different case. It's like Kerry said defending Gore's pot smoking. Kerry said that Gore was upfront about his past, while Bush was evasive and put people behind bars and maybe even death row for what he himself had done.

Bush is in a similar position now. Not only did he unnecessarily commit troops to the battlefield, he continues to refuse any relief through the UN. The entire invasion was coordinated by Pentagon chickenhawks, while shutting out combat veterans like Colin Powell in the State Department.

<>

http://www.awolbush.com/

Dean said he was a vociferous supporter of every war in the last thousand years except Iraq.

Direct quote and source, please?

"I, Howard Dean, do solemnly swear my support for every war in the last thousand years, and do so vociferously."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/

What more evidence do you need?

<>

"Let me make this perfectly clear. I am only against one war in the last thousand years."

- Howard Dean, on Meet The Press.

and not the link to his homepage, for starters. Even IF he did say it, I'd dare to say you took that quote completely out of context.

I guess this post will be deleted in a few minutes. The DU freepers like "DrFunkenstein" have found the ultimate weapon: post such a blatant lie (e.g. a fabricated quote and a claim that it's on a webpage where it isn't) that there is no other possible reply than to call it a lie which it is. The reply gets deleted and the lie is left lying. :-(

Moderators, please: try to think about it, at least a little, pretty please... does it make any kind of sense?

There are no dumb people, just dumb posts.

C'mon guys. It was OBVIOUSLY, PAINFULLY OBVIOUSLY a joke. I was EXAGERRATING. Dean did not support the 4th Crusade.

Say, did I mention snarky, humorless, and hypocritical?

"Dean said he was a vociferous supporter of every war in the last thousand years except Iraq. And he choose not to serve." ?

If it slips past unchallenged, it's serious. If you get called on it, it's a "joke"... :eyes:

1)Thousand years is an exagerration for humorous effect.
2)Dean got a 1-Y, which is not an outright rejection.

Drats! You caught it just when I thought I had got one past your awesome powers of perception.

:freak:

show it to me.

That's not a challenge. I want to know. The story, as I know it, is Dean reported for his Army physical and was rejected by the military doc. Is this a false understanding on my part?

It's the standard freepy technique: spew so many lies that some may slip by unchallenged. Then claim that because they "weren't refuted", they must be true.

Russert: Let me turn to a Boston Globe article about the military service during the Vietnam War as it applies to you and I’ll put it on the screen.

“Dean did not serve in the military during the Vietnam War because he received a medical deferment for an unfused vertebra in his back. Several articles in the last year have noted that after his deferment, Dean spent 80 days skiing in Aspen, Colorado.”

And then The Aspen Times wrote this profile. “In Howard Dean, we could have a president who spent the winter of 1971-72...pounding bumps on Aspen Mountain. ‘I paid $250 for a ski pass and skied 80 days on Ajax. It was the greatest mountain. ... I went to work pouring concrete for a small company.’” Why were you able to ski on Ajax Mountain, pounding your back, and pouring concrete, and not serve in the military?

Dean: I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth.

But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track.

In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency.

------

"By background, Dean, a WASP native of Park Avenue, now 54 years old, is no more a man of the people than Bush. Both went to prep school and Yale in the 1960s (Bush was three years ahead), both figured out how to avoid serving in Vietnam, both gave up drinking after party-hearty years (Dean much earlier) and both tried business first, with Dean deciding after a brief stint on Wall Street that he didn’t much like his father’s occupation and wanted to go to medical school instead."

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/947647.asp?0sl=-20

------

There are many types of work in the military. A good deal of them don't require running back and forth. If Dean wanted to, he could have easily chosen to enter military service - national emergency or not.

Like I said, I don't blame him. But let's not pretend that they would have refused him. A 1-Y is not a rejection, its an option out.

By seriously, I mean he never did anything really to protest Viet-nam. Why would he have gone into the military if he was even moderaterally<-spelling sorry, against the Viet-nam war?

No matter what your job is in the military you are expected to be able to do certain physical things (such as run mid to long distances). I would have been 1y to my ears though I could have done several things in the military.

Namely that while he was in high school he participated heavily in sport -- weightlifting, wrestling, and football, all of which greatly stress one's back. Yet he was given a 1Y deferment at his induction physical because of a vertebra problem. He says that the problem mainly bothers him when he runs, but it apparently didn't bother him when he ran as a footballer.

While Dean's supporters here make much of the fact that it was a medical deferment, no one has come up with a good answer as to how the problem could have come to light, since a spinal xray is not part of the normal induction physical.

Rush Limbaugh got a deferment for an anal cyst, and I don't think they probed him on that one.

Or telling the examiner 'I have a vertebra problem'.

Either way, I think that counts as dodging. And, since he's pro-war, that would make him a bona-fide chickenhawk.

At least not without more information proving it. It smells that way, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. My point is that he had a choice to serve under the 1-Y, and chose not to. As I've said, I don't blame him, and would have done the same.

I apply Thoreau's test. If someone comes up with more information, I'll happily incorporate it, but, right now, Thoreau's test says 'dodger' to me.

He's a "chickenhawk" because YOU "imagine" that Dean said "something like that" to the examiner?

I really don't mind this being debated if there's ONE shred of evidence of wrongdoing on Dean's part, but you've been able to provide nothing but conjecture. I could just as easily say that Kucinich's recent 180 on the pro-choice issue was due to him knocking up a handicapped 14-year-old girl. (Well, it WAS a pretty fast reversal and the people that I know who change their minds on such major issues tend to do so based on personal experiences...)

**DISCLAIMER** Of course the Kucinich/14-year-old tale is meant to prove a point and has NO basis in fact.

...the point being that you state your unsupported conjecture as fact. Your attacks on Dean in reference to his deferrment bear no more merit than the whimsical Kucinich illustration I drew.

about how this vertebra problem came to light. What we seem to know is that (a) the problem has had no apparent effect on his life whatever, including his ability to participate in grueling sport; and (b) it would not have come to light during a standard induction physical.

So how did it come to light? Dr F says 'note', I say 'note or mention'. Got a third possibility?

1) Either "note" or "mention" do not detract from the legitimacy of a medical condition. If it WAS one of these, it was enough to convince the examiner.

2) The EXAMINER (note: "examiner" is your word) might have actually.......wait for it..........examined........Dean and through either physical means or questioning determined that Dean had an impairment.

I'm not an orthopedist. I don't recall you posting your credentials as one, either. If you DO have some facts to provide, by all means, do so. I think it's ridiculous to post your unsupported opinions as fact, however.

The FACT is that there's absolutely NO evidence of wrongdoing on Dean's part. The military granted him a medical deferrment. They did so of their own volition. Stating that Dean dodged service is a misrepresentation of the facts.

"(Dean didn't serve in the military. Due to an unfused vertebra in his back, he was classified 1-Y, meaning he would only be called up in the event of a full-scale war or an emergency.)"

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030331&c=2&s=corn

couldn't he have done better than a 1-Y?

It wasn't a contest...they didn't give prizes for the most complete dodge. :)

by palpation, though, and why anyone woould even think to do that with such a robust guy. And I'm afraid I disagree strongly that 'note' or 'mention' do not detract, when the issue is a privileged guy escaping the draft. Such tactics--bringing something to light that is minor enough to not otherwise be found, with the goal of getting a pass--is more or less the very definition of 'draft dodging'.

As to posting my 'unsupported allegations as fact', I'm not and I think you should acknowledge that. What I'm doing is posting my opinion of the available evidence. I take good care to qualify my statements about it.

If you can come up with something that suggests how such a condition can be both obvious enough to be caught on an induction physical AND minor enough to cause no problems during the most strenuous physical activity, I'd like to hear it.

I'd also like to have an explanation of what 'unfused vertebra' even means, since according to the sources I've been able to find, the natural state of vertebrae is to be unfused. Fusion of the cervical spine is related to subsequent hypermobility and potentially serious problems. So what's an 'unfused vertebra' in Dean's case?

is nothing short of bizarre. Would I have been dodging the draft if I had told my draft board (truthfully) that I was gay? (assuming I had had to face one) The military says they don't want people with the problem Dean has. They presumedly have good reason not to. I, for one, find it patently obvious why the military wouldn't want an inductee who couldn't run medium to long distances. It is not dodging the draft when one brings to the attention of the military facts which the military considers relevant.

As to your question about telling them you're gay -- no, it's a different domain entirely. Their homophobia is prejudice plain and simple, and exploiting that prejudice is fine. But if they were willing to take Kinsey 1-3 and you claimed to be a 4, 5 or 6, then yeah, that would be dodging.

As Dr F has pointed out, there are plenty roles in the military where running long distances is not required. In fact, the Air Force doesn't even impose running as part of basic training (or didn't, at least, during the Vietnam era, according to a friend who went through it at that time).

to avoid military service. Things like pulling strings to get a guard slot, saying you have a medical condition that you do not have that kind of thing. Dean didn't do that. He did what your candidate did. Heart murmurs are as hard to detect in a basic physical as a bad back is. If it was good enough for Dennis it is good enough for Dean. They rise or fall together on this.

I think you'll find that most people consider 'draft dodging' to mean taking advantage of some escape hatch not generally available, for the purpose of escaping military service. Staying in school unnecessarily, drawing on family privilege, invoking some medical condition that is either factitious or has no actual effect on everyday life, etc.

Dennis's heart murmur was enough (afaik--if you have evidence to the contrary, I'll be happy to hear about it) to end his participation in HS sport. Big difference.

so his condition affected his sports career too. You may not like the military's decision on this but you also benefitted from what more than a few people would consider an arbitrary decision on their part (not to draft women). Everything you said relative to Dean can indeed be said relative to you yet you aren't a vet. Why not?

but no cigar

you may have heard of them.

which are part of routine physicals.

Chest X-Rays.

If you have a mdeical condition that would qualify you for a deferrment, you must bring medical evidence of that condition from ones personal physician. alomg with accompanying documentation.

THe only conditions that would result in a deferment at the draft board itself would have to be blatantly obvious conditions, such as missing limbs, blindness, not meeting height or weight requiements and so on.

An unfused disk is NOT among th medical consitions that they check for. The exam is limited to checking weight, height, vision, hearing, check for hernias, for blatant substance abuse,, a chest x ray and tuberculosis skin test.

It all took less time than going through the drive through at McDonalds. It was waiting in line with hundres of others that took all of the time.

For ANY other deferments, you had to apply for them.

That you think people just sauntered in and said "I have fused vertbra" and they didn't get drafted? BTW just how did the army find out about your candidates heart murmur? HMMMM

If you don't see how dumb your argument is then I honestly don't know what to say.

BTW they had xrays back then.

to him how doctors' notes can save lives.

wrestling, football, etc.

though as I pointed out in another response, 'unfused' appears to be the natural state of vertebrae, with fusion implying disorder.

Is that the induction physical is NOT that thorough, And in no way could detect the conditionfor which Dean was deferred.


Deans first deferrment was educational, not physical, as soon as the government eliminated eduicational deferrments, Dean came up with another.

The actual procedure was that Dean had to apply for a medical deferment. Barring obvious phycical disabilities, such as blindness, deafness, being bound to a wheelchair or missing limbs, a deferment such as Deans medical deferment requred that Dean come to the induction center prepared with medical records from his own physicians in order be granted such a deferment.

And the granting of such deferment came far more easily if you had a connected family, than if you came from an average middle class one. The boards were generally comprised of the frieds of politicians or people who sat on the boards of directors of corporations and so on.
Being well connected certainly didnt hurt Dean when the decisions were made. And again, to anyone who ever went through the induction procedure, the statement that they examined him and "FOUND" he had a condition that made him elegible for a deferrment will just not wash.

I frequently ponder about how amusing it would be if the draft were reinstated and all of Deans young supporters experienced the procedure themselves in order to get an idea about the slippery nature of Deans statements about his deferrment.

Why then, If Deans condition was congential, and severe enough to be deferred, was this not his initial deferment?

are you incapable of understanding? hint the next Olympics when you watch the 100m dash that is slightly more than a football field. And in case you don't know it dash means a short race.

In basic training you are required to run miles a day, every day, for weeks. They do that because often troops have to travel great distances on foot. Even if Dean had begged them to let him serve they wouldn't have taken him due to the fact his back would have endangered other people. That is why those deferments exist. Every soldier has a job and if one is laid up due to a congenital back problem then someone else has to take up the slack. Which would endanger others.

Unless and until you supply a link saying Dean wasn't classified 1Y after taking an induction physical you are willfully spreading untruths to the detriment of your candidate. I provide links when asked where are yours?

Dean: First of all, let me say that there’s only one person who’s contending for the Democratic nominee for president who did serve in the military, nomination for president, and then let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

Russert: A military physical.

Dean: Yeah. I had a military physical. I had a draft induction physical in Ft. Hamilton. I think it was, perhaps, during my senior year. I don’t remember the exact date.

Russert: If called, you would have served?

Dean: Of course.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Note: Dean opposed the invasion of Vietnam and the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Dean supported Desert Storm and the invasion of Afghanistan (he feels that Bush has done a horrible job in Afghanistan, though.)

It's really getting discouraging around here at DU lately (on all sides, mind you). I think I'm checking out of Politics and Campaigns for a while...maybe I'll do something more pleasurable, like have a root canal done or something.

:evilfrown:

He only goes with what's popular at the moment. When the war looked popular, he changed his rhetoric.

... because of an unfused vertebrae. Evidently, he experienced a cure. No, I don't refer to the extended ski vacation that year. I refer to the following, taken years later, after he finished walking the entire length of Vermont.



Here's the story:

‘Green’ governor finishes hiking ‘green tunnel’

The Herald of Randolph
June 7, 2001

RANDOLPH, Vt. — Five very tired, very wet, very determined seventh-grade girls from Randolph, Vt., helped Gov. Howard Dean achieve a personal goal Monday — his own end-to-end trek of Vermont’s 250-mile-Long Trail.

In return, the girls got a note excusing them from the next day’s phys ed class at RUHS. The note was signed by a doctor — Dr. Howard Dean.

Nine students and leaders from the White River Craft Center set off with Gov. Dean at 8:30 a.m. from Route 242 near Jay Peak, headed north toward Canada.

The group had stayed overnight on the trail the previous evening, bedding down at the Laura Woodward Shelter. They wanted to be on hand bright and early when the governor arrived, intent on finishing the northernmost 13.3 miles of trail. It was the only section that Gov. Dean hadn’t hiked so far.

CONTINUED...

http://www.aldha.org/howdean.htm

walking and running. If you don't know that then you have never had a bad back. I have and can walk (for my weight) pretty decent distances but can run virtually none. Given the massively better shape he is in I am not at all surprised that he can walk 13 miles in a day.

A painful back, or any other malady, is not something I would wish on anyone except someone who would hurt another human being. You've always been polite and kind toward me and I appreciate what you add to the discussion here and on the other boards.

My main reason for posting the hiking article is to shed light on candidate Dean and his health relative to his service. National security, IMO, represents the major issue for Campaign 2004. If the DEMs nominate a candidate without experience in the field, our jobs will be much, much tougher, perhaps impossible.

The other thing: John F. Kennedy was troubled by many health issues, including a bad back, as Will Pitt reminded us today in his article in GD. JFK did all he could, and his family pulled as many strings as possible, in order to serve the nation in WW2. The sinking of PT-109 exacerbated his condition, but he still swam for miles, pulling a wounded comrade through the waters until they landed on an uninhabited island.

Finally: My horse volunteered for Vietnam. When he came home, he stood up and said the war was wrong. People from the White House and Senate to the college campuses and construction sites paid attention. I think in 2004, they'll pay most attention to him, again.

First the Kennedy's had vastly more pull than the Dean's. Joe Kennedy was ambassador to England which takes a significant amount of pull to become.

Second JFK lied about his medical condition to everyone including many of his doctors. In retrospect that may not have been the best idea.

Third It is good for him that the PT 103 incident turned out as well as it did. It is also good for that sailor he pulled to shore. It easily could have turn out very differently and arguably Kennedy would have helped contribute to a comrades death. These medical exemptions are not for the people getting them but for the people who are likely to be depending upon those that get them. What if Kennedy's back had been acting up that day?

Finally I appreciate your kind remarks. My back is not that bad (I am not even sure it would have gotten me out of any draft) but my point was that many times ailments that do keep you out of service are not that severe. There is no evidence at all that Dean lied to get this exemption. There is his story, uncontraverted, that he showed up to be inducted and was rejected. Vietnam wasn't WW2. People took their exemptions and stayed home. That appears to be what Dean did.

HE had to be prepared in order to be rejected. Medical application for deferment and supporting documentation.

Even if what you are saying is true is in fact true then so what. Would gays who tell their draft boards that they are gay be draft dodgers? The military presumedly has good reason to not accept people with bad backs. Having one myself I can think of several good reasons. When my back goes I would be worthless to both myself and others in combat or anything else. Knock on wood I haven't had to deal with it much at all for several years but when I was a senior in high school I spent several weeks on serious drugs for that very reason. I would presumedly have been rejected or deferred for that, for being gay, or for my ears none of which makes me an invalid. So why should I have to live like one?

As Dr F has illuminated, there is no 'not accept' about a 1Y. 'Not take' and 'not accept' are two different things. 1Y is 'not take'-- they let you walk away if you want to, or join if you want to. Being openly gay is a 'not accept' -- they won't allow you in even if you want to join.

Take it up with the fucking Army doc who said Dean couldn't serve unless there was a national emergency.

Unless there's evidence that Dean paid the doc off, used family influence, or whatever, this is a dead issue.

I'm from the working class. I remember lots of guys when I was growing up who were praying for deferments like this. If Dean got one fair and square, what is the big deal? I will change my tune if I find out he pulled a Bush on us and used family influence. That would piss me off. But the guy gets a legitimate deferral, and that means he weasled out of service? Who cares if he went and climbed Mt. Himalaya afterward? As I said, lots of guys were looking for things to do to get out of going to Vietnam (intentionally raise their blood pressure, etc.), and apparently Dean got out of it legitmately

Oh, what's the fucking use?

Jeesh. I knew I shouldn't have checked back here in Politics and Campaigns. Same old shit. Different day.

on DU for a long long time after Bush* was inaugurated.

Now, Al Gore seems to be one of the most popular politicians in the Democratic Party. :)

It's important to take the initiative. Here's why I've taken sides re Dean:

Every time. EVERY TIME. EVERY FUCKING TIME I post something positive about my horse, it gets shot to shit by his supporters — not all of them, not most of them, but some of them. And that's why I post stinkers on the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker. If I don't, they have free run of DU and the political debate. And to be honest, the Democrats don't stand a chance with Dean.

Please check out GD for the latest:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=188065&mesg_id=188065

Be thankful I don't sink to the level of some of the others who crap on my posts. I'd have to crap on every pro-Dean thread posted. Chthulhu knows there's enough material to go with.

For eight years of the Clinton White House, I kept my mouth shut and took plenty of grief from repugs. Nam Vets have been the scourge of America for 30+ years. It’s time we shine, rose up, and let America know we are not dope smoking, village burning, dead burned baby flesh eaters.

It's time to put a Nam Vet in the White House.

At this point, all others are chickenhawks. The talk in VFW's, DAV's, and American Legions Posts are, "When is the General going to commit?"

Then you crybaby's who love freedom, but never fought for it, will see some serious lockstepping as we march in support of General Clark. All others will have to wait eight years.

Just what are the vets you are talking to smoking? I don't agree with that characterization of Dean but frankly find that characterization of Kerry (covered by all others when Clark is the person named) to be delusional. BTW Moseley Braun also gets a pass under any non delusional thinking.

Kerry doesn't BEGIN to be a chickenhawk.

Kucinich isn't one either -- he is not for war under any circumstances except actual defence.

which was chosen by you to presumedly illustrate the evil cabal of Dean supporters trashing Kerry. There are precisely two people on that thread who post negatively about Kerry. One hated Kerry for a long time before he ever stated that he was for Dean and now says he is for Kucinich. The other one had no avitar, has not to my knowledge spoken in favor of Dean, and even you dont say in the thread that the person did. Just out of curiousity do you consider that good evidence of Dean people trashing Kerry threads? I gurantee you that I could easily find Dean threads trashed by the same four to five Kerry supporters and one or two Kucinich supporters on the front page of this forum. Yet you will look long and hard to find me trashing threads.

The reference was to my most recent post. If you want, though, I'll pull up as many threads as I've posted regarding Kerry that have been crapped on by a regular butt-load of Dean folk, almost all of whom weren't anywhere near that link. BTW: Nowhere did I say you were one of them. Do you have a guilty conscience?

In point of fact I DEFENDED Kerry when he was trashed for saying get over it in reference to election 2k. I DEFENDED Kerry when his anti Bush ad was trashed in the GD section. I DEFENDED Kerry when a Dean supporter called him another Dukakis. My point was, and is, that there are a veritable handful of Dean supporters who have trashed Kerry. Many of those had no use for Kerry long before they declared for Dean. Others are people who are by no means long term members here. For you to tar all Dean supporters over that is unfair.

He said he didn't have to under a 1-Y. Again, I would have followed a similar route, but let's at least get the facts straight.

unless there was a national emergency. Is that better? BTW be prepared to adhere to that standard of exactitude in your posts if you are going to demand that of us.

As a gay man, you couldn't join, if you told, because of their prejudices. Dr F is saying that Dean could have joined--they would have taken him with the 1Y if he had chosen to join. However, he chose to go skiing instead.

Often openly gay men were taken in anyway (read Conduct Unbecoming for several examples including Sgt Watkins who is probably the most famous) and 1 Y means you don't serve unless there is an emergency. You also mentioned the Air Force they didn't draft at all.

Perry Watkins was an anomaly. Everyone acknowledged that. That's how he was able to hoist them at their own petard.

1Y means you don't get DRAFTED AGAINST YOUR WILL unless it's an emergency.

The friend I mentioned chose the AF rather than be drafted into the Army or Marines.

he was no such thing. The stats are given in the book. I will if I absolutely have to look it up in the index and post a page number but there is a whole section on it. The anomaly is only how long he served (most were prevented from reinlisting after the war).

The possibility of killing innocent civilians haunted Kerry. With many of the South Vietnamese waterways in ''free fire zones'' - meaning that the US Navy was authorized to shoot anyone who was violating a curfew - the likelihood that innocent villagers could be killed was high.

Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr.

Within days of the Saigon meeting, he joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 on a series of missions in which he won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts. Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.

The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

because he is not a hawk. What bugs me is the chickenhawks gunning for an optional war in Iraq when they have no idea what it is like to serve. But Dean opposed the war so he does not fit that category.

That sounds like chickenhawk to me.

You guys can spin it til it's dry and twisted...but the facts don't change: he took a pass from Vietnam, and he was willing to send kids to murder other kids for no good reason.

I don't buy the whole thing, but on purely logical terms, you could say he is a chickenhawk since he makes clear that he is NOT an anti-war candidate. He is an anti-this-war candidate. Which qualifies him for chickenhawk status.

I think even Kucinich supports war in some circumstances.

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http://www.awolbush.com

They are the Shite Standard of chickenhawkery.

By comparison, Dean barely makes the B team.

What was the basis of Limbaugh's 1-Y classification? The Selective Service System records still available indicate that the classification was not assigned on psychological or moral grounds, but because of a physical problem.

And since there are no records indicating that Limbaugh was ever examined by a physician at an Armed Forces Entrance Examining Station (i.e., he never underwent a pre-induction physical), the 1-Y classification was almost certainly assigned based on a report Limbaugh had his own doctor prepare and submit to his draft board.

(No implication that the report was fabricated is intended; the point is merely to note that Limbaugh's deferment was based upon an examination conducted by a private doctor, not one administered by an Armed Services physician.)

http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm

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i have never gotten that impression.