Kerry on Gays in the Military and on Dems who would abandon principles

A couple of last things and then I'll end. Let me make it clear that this is also a time to stand up for the civil rights of this nation. It's time to have an Attorney General who respects, not disrespects, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. When I fought in Vietnam, I know that there were people in the military--because I know them today--and I know the medals they won, who were gay, and they fought as clearly and with as much passion and sense of patriotism as anybody else.

You go up on Capitol Hill and there is a cemetery where there is a gravestone, and on that gravestone the person’s epitaph says, "The Army gave me a medal for killing a man but gave me a dishonorable discharge for loving one." I think we deserve a President of the United States who brings all Americans together and recognizes the value of the service of everyone in the United States of America.

I’m proud, and I have made it clear--I think I'm the only one who has—because I'm not going to get caught up in the words. Some people say it's a litmus test. Some people say whatever. I am not appointing anyone to the Supreme Court of the United States who doesn't understand and respect the right of privacy and who will guarantee we will not undo Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose in America. And you can call it -- you can call it--a litmus test if you want. But I will explain to America what it really is. It's defending constitutional liberties in the United States.

And I also think we cannot afford to be a party that reads the wrong lessons from the last election. Shame on us if we believe that we have to retreat from our principles and suddenly that something like gun safety is not important in America. I come here to tell you we can't go out and win elections by throwing out our principles. I won't do it. I'm a hunter, I'm a gun owner, but I have never, ever thought of shooting with an AK-47 when I go hunting. And I will tell you I don't want to be the candidate of the N.R.A., and I don't want our candidates to be the candidates of the N.R.A. I reject that notion. We can stand up for safety in America and keep guns out of the hands of children and felons and still respect the Second Amendment of our nation.

http://johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_1004.html

The sooner the public gets used to hearing it the better.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

One of his first speeches was on Gay & Lesbian rights and one of his first acts was to draft and introduced the Civil Rights Protection Act of 1985, which would have prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He has been an avid defender of LGBT issues his entire career.

We all know the Dean propaganda is that he's the only honest person in politics, but that doesn't make it true. In fact, the more he says it, the more obvious it becomes that Dean's the only liar in the bunch.

Kerry has been an advocate for gays and minorites for years. Do your homework rather than just parroting fanatical Dean lover lies.

Dean said in South Carolina on May 3 that Kerry's record on gay rights was very good. Dean supporters, let's not start throwing punches on this issue when our candidate isn't.

Mousepads, Shoe Leather, and Hope

The notion that Kerry is all talk is pure media drivel. The "cold calculated patrician" image they love to hand out every 4 years makes it seem like Kerry is a pompous windbad with no action to his resume, but one couldn't be further from the truth.

I understand the tempation but Kerry's record is fantastic on gay and lesbian issues. And unlike the Dean bashers I won't stoop to lying about Kerry's record to make points.

and that of the Dean bashers should speak volumes. I am not allowed to call the things they posted what they are but we all know what it is. Maybe someone can come up with a DU acceptable word for inaccurate statements posted when the refutation of said statement has been posted over and over again. Not one major Dean supporter trashed Kerry's record in this regard. Yet many Kerry ones trash Dean's. Explain again why we are supposedly the mean, lying, aggressors as I don't get it.

this is a very telling thread

HAHA...you are very ill-informed. Kerry was one of the first lawmakers to advocate publically for gays.

Besides his work for gay friendly legislation, he also testified in front of Congress to allow gays to serve openly in the military.

No other candidate has done more for as long as Kerry.

has a record that goes above and beyond just Civil Unions.

cuz I haven't heard it.

I have posted his record not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, not five times, not six times, not seven times but countless times. For the record this is what Dean did according to out in the mountains the LGBT paper of record in Vermont . In 1992, just months after becoming governor he signed a civil rights bill for gays and lesbians in Vermont he was the first Democratic governor to do so in the entire nation. He appointed the first openly gay Vermont House member. He permitted joint adoption by same sex couples. first governor to do so . He passed an anti hate crime measure which applied to anti gay hate crimes. Again this is according to Out in the Mountains not Dean. I can't beleive in the literal sense of that statement that you didn't read this which has been posted several times by me as well as Nick J among others. Link will be provided YET AGAIN for you on edit.

Here is the link:

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jun2000/news06_dean%20.htm

Here is the relevant text (it is the second paragraph of the article and clearly written by a writer for Out in the Mountains.

As Governor, Dean has historically sided with Vermont’s gay and lesbian community. He is credited with helping pass, and ultimately signing into law, legislation prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He also supported the extension of benefits to the domestic partners of Vermont State employees. In 1994, Dean appointed Bill Lippert, an openly gay man, to fill a vacant seat in the House of Representatives. As a result of the state’s new civil union law, national gay newsmagazine The Advocate recently dubbed him the “Dean of unions.”

I will grant that adoption and hate crimes aren't mentioned here so I will try to find that. The rest is. I also forgot the benefits so in that respect I undersold him.

nt

Every piece of Vermont legislation went through the courts or union arbitration before it became law. I haven't found one time where Howard Dean took the lead and actually proposed gay legislation. He was the Vermont Minority Leader back in 1985 and had been in the Vermont House since 1983. Was he writing and introducing gay rights legislation?

According to Out in the Mountains, unlike you they know what they are talking about, he did the following.

As Governor, Dean has historically sided with Vermont’s gay and lesbian community. He is credited with helping pass, and ultimately signing into law, legislation prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He also supported the extension of benefits to the domestic partners of Vermont State employees. In 1994, Dean appointed Bill Lippert, an openly gay man, to fill a vacant seat in the House of Representatives. As a result of the state’s new civil union law, national gay newsmagazine The Advocate recently dubbed him the “Dean of unions.” Link in post 11.

None of the above save civil unions came about due to court rulings of any kind. I am not allowed to call what you wrote what it is (given the upteen times this record has been posted) but we both know what that word is.

Here's the first second-parent adoption, through a court.

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/oitm/issues/1992/03mar1992/

In Vermont, Mary has been involved in a variety of family law matters, including the 1993 second parent adoption case, the case of Chris Titchenal and co-parent rights, and most recently, as co-counsel in Baker v. State of Vermont (Vermont's same-gender marriage case).

Second parent adoption became law in 1994, after Supreme Court rulings.

"Medical and dental. Negotiated after a female union member in a same-sex relationship filed a labor grievance; extended to same- and opposite sex domestic partners simultaneously." 1994

http://www.ngltf.org/pi/dpbstate.htm

Howard Dean never took the lead on any of this, certainly not back in the '80s when he was serving in the House and could have. I'm not saying he wouldn't support gay rights legislation if it came before him as President, I'm just saying he wouldn't do anything to push for it.

they go before arbitrators. In addition, he granted that benefit without a finding. Finally it would have been under either the civil rights law signed and passed by him or a labor agreement negotiated on his behalf. In either case he would have been responsible for the existence of the legal theory the person sued under.

"Every piece of Vermont legislation went through the courts or union arbitration..."

What civil rights law, I'm not sure what you're talking about. The Civil Union law wasn't around at the time of the adoption and same-sex benefit cases.

And if there were same-sex benefits in the labor agreement, the woman wouldn't have had to go to arbitration to get them.

Howard Dean had nothing to do with any of this, even though he could have if he'd introduced legislation back in 1985 when he was Minority Leader.

or some of the over half dozen other times I have posted it. There was a gay and lesbian civil rights law passed in 1992. That is the civil rights law I was talking about. As to the labor dispute. The only things which can be arbitrated in labor disuptes are those things which are in the labor agreement. Otherwise there is nothing to arbitrate.

This is what your first article says. No wonder you didn't quote it.

On December 20, 1991, in Addison County Probate Court, legal history was made in Vermont when Judge Chester S. Ketcham approved the first second parent gay/lesbian adoption in the state. The state did not contest the adoption, which became final one month later. There are only a handful of these adoptions in the country, putting Vermont in the forefront on gay/lesbian family law issues. All cases to date involve lesbians. What makes the Vermont case especially significant from a legal standpoint is that Judge Ketcham wrote an opinion which can be used as a legal precedent in future adoptions. This case demonstrated once again the essential fairness of the Vermont judiciary, which decided a case on its merits, rather than on the sexual orientation of the parties involved.

Note the bold sentence. The state didn't contest the adoption. News flash all adoptions are granted by courts. You have to file paper work with a court and then the court gives the adoption or doesn't give the adoption. Again, in the most literal sense imaginable you are utterly unbelieveable.

Some more quotes from the same link.

Then there was a second home study, this one looking specifically at Laura. It was ordered by the judge and carried out by Vermont Children's Aid, under its contract with the Vermont Department of Social and Rehabilitative Services (SRS). In her report, Ann Clark, the Director of Children's Aid, wrote that she wholeheartedly endorsed the adoption if the court found that Vermont law allowed it. Throughout the process SRS' s position was unclear. It sent letters to Vermont Children's Aid and to the Addison County Probate Court which took the position that G/L second parent adoptions were not permitted under Vennont's adoption law. However, SRS did not attend the hearing in November 1991 and did not fIle an appeal during the statutory waiting period after the adoption was approved.

snip

And finally the big question: even though the adoption was clearly in the best interests of the child and the corollary issues had been satisfactorily resolved, is the adoption of a child by both members of a gay or lesbian couple legal in Vermont? Vermont adoption law allows "a person or husband and wife together" to adopt a child. When Beth originally adopted Hannah, she did so as a person under Vermont law. Susan Murray argued that Laura was also a person under Vermont law and, as such, could adopt Hannah, adding that a primary purpose of the husband and wife provision was to ensure that neither spouse could adopt a child without the consent of the other. In effect, she argued that Vermont law permitted the adoption by not specifically prohibiting it, and the judge agreed with this interpretation of the law.

end of quote

Frankly, I don't think it was legal under Vermont law for same sex second parent adoption to take place. While I am glad the judge decided as he did the interpretation he used is almost bizarre. It is pretty clear what the state did here. They chose to not oppose this adoption and acted accordingly.

And a Supreme Court decision and then in 1994, the adoption law was passed. Howard Dean had nothing to do with any of it.

not opposing the cases? Is that what you are saying? Again, literally unbelievable.

No he doesn't have anything to do with the position a court took in 1991, he'd only been governor a couple of months.

And he didn't have anything to do with the arbitration case either, they were "Negotiated after a female union member in a same-sex relationship filed a labor grievance." That's what the link I already provided says. Gays and lesbians got State benefits because of this case. Howard Dean could have done it on his own, but he didn't.

Almost everything that has happened for gays and lesbians in Vermont has been from the direct action of gay and lesbian people. Howard Dean doesn't obstruct the passage of the laws, but he hasn't been out there advocating either.

I would presume that would have had quite a bit to do with the fact the court ruled in favor of the adoption. And yes I do think Dean had more than a little bit to do with his state not opposing it.

presumedly you were not here when it was posted before.

Definetly no reason to be rude about it.

And pushing for inclusion of sexual preference in all civil rights legislation from the FIRST YEAR he served in congress. Not in a closed room.

eom

went down:

The latest act of courage and leadership in pursuit of tolerance started last December, when the Vermont Supreme Court ordered equal marriage rights and benefits for gay Vermonters. Both houses of the Vermont Legislature responded quickly and by mid-April the governor signed the civil unions bill -- in private, of course. Reporters and cameras were not allowed in. But the secrecy of the signing didn't keep the controversy down.

For incumbent Governor Howard Brush Dean III, it was a fight he never asked for. The four-term governor (two-year terms in Vermont), had refused for years to publicly state his position on gay marriage. Dean is a Yale graduate (1971) and a medical doctor. Fiscal conservatism and universal health care are his issues. Dr. Dean describes his seat on the mandala of politics as that of a "passionate centrist." Again and again he told the public he would not comment on the same-sex marriage issue because it was a matter before the court.

Then, within one hour of the Vermont Supreme Court decision that declared gay marriage constitutional, Dean clumsily told reporters that when it comes to homosexual marriage, he was "uncomfortable about it, just like anybody else."

At least he was honest. Gay marriage simply was not his issue. It dropped into his lap like piping hot tomato soup. He was clearly relieved the Supreme Court had offered an out -- creation of a parallel system that would grant the rights and benefits without the "marriage" title. "Civil union" was born.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/3867

According to Out in the Mountains (see post 11 for link) Dean in the same press conference that he expressed his discomfort came out for civil unions. While Paine doesn't directly say the opposite he certainly implies it. Further every opponent of Dean's agree that he twisted arms to get that bill passed. He convieniently or sloppily left those details out of his piece.

I want to SEE links to arm twisting to get that bill passed, as there is no reference to it outrside of Deans campaign.

Out in the mountains also refers to Dean using fear mongering tactics to get gays to abandon their preferred candidate, Anthony Pollina, because he stated that the Progressives Party would hurt him more than the Republicans(very true, Dean got more of his support from the Republicans of Vermont than the Democrats)


A Vermont political party whose goals include full civil rights for gays and lesbians has nominated its first candidate ever for the office of governor.
Anthony Pollina, a senior policy advisor for Vermont Public Interest Research Group, is the Vermont Progressive Party’s gubernatorial candidate for 2000. He has been active in grassroots organizing, activism, and non-profit work for nearly 20 years.


http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/mar2000/news_pollina.htm


Dean: You can forget about that (national office). It certainly isn’t going to help it any unless someone is looking for someone who says what they think and sticks to their word. That’s not as valued in Washington as it is elsewhere.

There are a number of Democrats and a number of Catholics who I have lost the support of, and I need to get that support back. The biggest problem for me (in November) is (Progressive) Anthony (Pollina). Anthony is going to take votes away from me and he’s not going to take any votes away from (Republican) Ruth (Dwyer). So actually the better he does, the more likely it is that Ruth Dwyer is going to be Governor.

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jun2000/news06_dean%20.htm

If the people running Vermonters for Civil Unions want to pander to Governor Dean so they can retain access to the “man in charge,” so be it. But I will not support this travesty – I will work to smash the patriarchy and the privilege that goes with it. Then, and only then, will all people live in honor and dignity.

Governor Dean has proven that he’ll only support us when he’s trapped or it’s convenient. For example, his recent interview with OITM where he virtually begged the queer community to support him over Anthony Pollina is simple, pathetic fear-mongering. He feels trapped and he comes to us for help. It’s truly depressing to see the privileged elites of the GLBT community and the privileged elites of the Democratic Party falling all over themselves in an effort to suck up to one another. The Governor should be ashamed of himself for attempting to scare queer folk and progressives into voting for him.

The LGBT community, and the sub-set known as “Vermonters for Civil Unions,” should take a hard look at our goals – do we really want to become simply another cog in an oppressive social and economic system or do we want to work for a world where those who have been ignored, patronized, beaten, killed, shut out and starved out will finally have a voice? I know my answer: I am voting for hope, not fear. I will be supporting Anthony Pollina

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jul2000/letters.htm


Pollina and the Progressives have taken the | Democrats' scare strategy straight on. They say, Vote | Your Hopes, Not Your Fears. The campaign is rich I with proposals on healthcare, environmental protection, a living wage, stability for small farmers and small businesses. Pollina has plenty of ammunition against Dean, who has been running Vermont longer than Clinton/Gore have been in the White House. It's the pathetic national story. In Vermont, 95 percent of men under 22 in prison do not have high school equivalency. In the past ten years prison spending has increased by 135 percent, while spending on state colleges has increased by 7 percent. One of every seven Vermont men between 18 and 21 is under the supervision of the Corrections Department.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Political_Reform/VoteHopes_NotFears.html


Progressive Steve Hingtgen of Burlington reprimanded the committee in his remarks. Calling anything other than marriage was inadequate, he said domestic partnership would validate hate.

“It institutionalizes the bigotry and affirmatively creates an apartheid system of family recognition in Vermont,” said Hingtgen.

Bill Mackinnon of Sharon joined Hingtgen and Lippert in voting to amend marriage statutes, making the final vote was eight to three against marriage.

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/mar2000/news_cdu.htm

Sorry, Charlie.

Deans methods and politicking in this case were and are despicable.

What Dean and his supporters fail to note when talking about the resistance to the CIVIL UNION ACT, and the low support in the polls, was that as much of the reaction to Deans separate but equal decision came from progressives and liberal democrats as it did from far right republicans.


THis article shows that even democrats and gays were toubled by Deans approach to the act, as well as the deep divide, not with republicans, but with gays and democrats that Denas behavior on this isue engendered:

Others, however, said Dean's move reflected a certain discomfort with the legislation and robbed gay and lesbian couples of a symbolic moment of celebration. The governor quickly shot back when a reporter asked if the decision to quietly sign the bill into law sent a message that gays and lesbians were still considered second-class citizens.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/leg2000/deansigns.html

went down:

The latest act of courage and leadership in pursuit of tolerance started last December, when the Vermont Supreme Court ordered equal marriage rights and benefits for gay Vermonters. Both houses of the Vermont Legislature responded quickly and by mid-April the governor signed the civil unions bill -- in private, of course. Reporters and cameras were not allowed in. But the secrecy of the signing didn't keep the controversy down.

For incumbent Governor Howard Brush Dean III, it was a fight he never asked for. The four-term governor (two-year terms in Vermont), had refused for years to publicly state his position on gay marriage. Dean is a Yale graduate (1971) and a medical doctor. Fiscal conservatism and universal health care are his issues. Dr. Dean describes his seat on the mandala of politics as that of a "passionate centrist." Again and again he told the public he would not comment on the same-sex marriage issue because it was a matter before the court.

Then, within one hour of the Vermont Supreme Court decision that declared gay marriage constitutional, Dean clumsily told reporters that when it comes to homosexual marriage, he was "uncomfortable about it, just like anybody else."

At least he was honest. Gay marriage simply was not his issue. It dropped into his lap like piping hot tomato soup. He was clearly relieved the Supreme Court had offered an out -- creation of a parallel system that would grant the rights and benefits without the "marriage" title. "Civil union" was born.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/3867

Kerry has SPONSORED legislation that protectedv gay civil rights, and got up on the floor of the Senate at the armed services comittee and condemned those who would try to kick gays out of the military.

Dean hid in his office and signed legislation he was embarassed to sign and adn worried about for months.

And regardless of the so low support for the legislation on signing it, this was not courage on Deans part, The Vermont Supreme Court gave him only two alternatives, Civil Union. or Marriage for gays, and let the legislature know in no uncertain terms that if they attempted to amend the Vermont Constitution, the Court would overturn the amendment.

Dean did nothing for gays as he had no choice whatsover but to sign or be found in conntept of the Supreme Court, and face possible impeachment for doing so.

THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME POSITION.

Kerry supports allowing gays to openly serve in the military. So does Dean.

Dean supports civil unions. So does Kerry.

The only way to have an argument over this is just to throw baseless accusations that Kerry/Dean is lying with absolutely nothing to back it up. The fact that this issue is turning into an argument is just riduculous.

but patently dishonest. Kerry supporters, in the face of evidence provided time and again, have posted patently dishonest posts about Dean's record.

is arguing who has the better stance, when both of their positions are identical. They may have different records, but because of their different jobs this is comparing apples to oranges. I can't see Sen. Dean acting any different from Kerry or Gov. Kerry acting any different from Dean.

though it is a small one, due to his risking his seat on that issue. He didn't have to do that but he did. I do agree that they are unlikely to act any differently. But again, I rarely mention giving Dean that edge and have NEVER , in stark contrast to certain Kerry supporters, posted inaccuracies about Kerry's record in this regard.

He was given ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE:

Bets lets look at how Business Week defended Deans record in Vermont, as well as statements it was not not Dean who pushed this bill through:


Gov. Dean did not mind polarizing with poor people, but he got along better with the corporate sector. “Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean’s record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required,” Business Week reported in its August 11 (2003) edition. “Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean’s tenure -- the ‘civil unions’ law and a radical revamping ofpublic school financing -- were instigated by Vermont’s ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean.” The magazine added: “Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state’s stringent environmental regulations.”

http://www.juicycerebellum.com/solomon039.htm

Bottom line is no matter how Deans supporters try to spin it Dean had little or nothing to do with Civil Unions except to have been left only two choices. Either Civil Union, or Gay Marriage. The wording of the decision is so specific that it literllay warns the state to not try to amend the State Constitution in order to get around its decision. (The Vermont Supreme Court it ULTRALIBERAL)

two :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Very good speech, reminds me of the RFK speeches I read. BTW I really like Kerry and he is my second choice.

"That kind of hate is the real enemy of our civilization -- and we come here to call on all people of good conscience to pass the laws that help us protect every citizen and we ask every American to make the personal commitment to live our lives each day in a way that brings us together."
Thats beautiful imo.

script. Sorkin is a big fan of Kerry's longtime efforts and endorsed Kerry.

Thanks for that reminder, w_a_l.

I have never heard Sorkin give anyone credit for that speech. Kerry was hardly the only person who spoke about Matt Shephard.

.

You made a very specific claim (that Sorkin was inspired by Kerry). I would like that link. That isn't too much to ask. And by the way I was asked for a citation I have posted over a half dozen times and I provided it. You are asked for a citation on something out of left field and you won't.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

And my point is if you're going to board nanny me on everything I say, you better be doing it to others, too, or I'll hold that mirror up for you.

show me where in that post you used the word heard. If you can you will have an apology. Otherwise I stand behing my post.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I don't believe they happen and I'd like to see some proof.

PS - How do you "suck a fucking problem?" Not to be a spelling nanny for your expletives, but it does bring up some interesting questions.

I'm pretty used to it by now. I guess it means they fear the truth in my posts and links, so they need to discredit me outright.

They have stepped up the attacks since I noted that Dean was pushpolling in Iowa and that he advocated for deregulating electricity as gov. of Vermont.