Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Ramblings on nuclear power...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 03:23 PM
Original message
Ramblings on nuclear power...
Nuclear power isn't perfect. But per MWH, nuclear power produces less nuclear waste than coal. The reason is you have to burn 2.1 tons of coal to get the energy from 1 mere gram of uranium. In that 2.1 tons of coal is more naturally occuring uranium and thorium than 1 gram. In fact, to date in the US, approximately 100,000 tons of uranium and thorium have been released into the atmosphere through coal burning according to the Department of Energy.

I'm not saying nuclear power is the ultimate generation method. It isn't. All power generation is a compromise, and many do hurt the environment.

We'll never run out; uranium is abundant and we can use a breeder reactor to create fissionable plutonium.

I believe in time green energy will get better and better and finally take over nuclear/coal. However, until we make significant advances, I feel nuclear is better than most other "primary" power sources including coal.

Nuclear energy is an effecient, cost effective, almost limitless source of power. There are risks, there are compromises. There are with any others.

I do support nuclear energy when it's safely and well implemented. I think it's the best primary power source we currently have, with today's limited technology.

It's really, really shocking to me that coal power produces more nuclear waste than nuclear power. And rather than being safely stored, it's vented into the atmosphere, with no controls on it at ALL. If coal plants were regulated like nuclear plants they couldn't operate.

We need to work towards better power generation in the future, keep innovating, keep improving, and also work on energy effeciency. But from all the data I've seen to date, nuclear energy is the best compromise for a primary power source.

I guess I'm just really disgusted we still use coal.

Now tell me where I'm wrong :D

*puts on flame retardant suit*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Radioactive effluents and emissions and fallout are mass murder
any way you cut it - this shit will kill you

see radiation.org

(I speak as one who handled worker injury claims in a nuclear facility - workewrs are dying en masse as are civilians exposed all the time by regular releases from commercial and nuclear plants)

60 plus million dead according to some estimates globally from radiation pollution which you cannot see smell or taste

Radiation.org for the real facts
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I understand radioactivity is dangerous...
Edited on Fri Oct-24-03 03:58 PM by Frangible
But my main point was, we have two principal power sources with today's technology: coal and nuclear. If we abandon nuclear, we release even more radioactivity into the environment. 100,000 tons of radioisotopes from coal power so far-- that's a lot, and that's a danger, imo.

How many people have died from the 100Ktons of uranium/thorium released into the air from coal plants?

I'm also not saying nuclear plants should be built next to cities. I have a friend who works at one in Texas that's damn near in the middle of the desert.

(EDIT: read a few things on that site and reading some more. Thanks for the link.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Interesting site, but...
all of the problems with nuclear have been operational. Basically, operators have been too cheap to build and run the plants properly. Once everyone realized that the 50's dream of virtually free, unlimited power from fission was a mirage, they started to cut costs to compete with fossil fuels.

Fuel processing operations aren't any better. Note the problems with Kerr-Mcgee and at Hanford. And there's that radon thing with cinder blocks made from tailings.

I'm up in the air about the whole thing. A fair number of experts I know, including some ex-nuclear Navy engineers, believe that well designed and operated plants pose no danger at all. Even the waste problem can be dealt with. And many plants are built solidly enough to withstand earthquakes, so terrorists are simply strawmen thrown up.

It's cost. Properly designed reactors cost a lot more than a number of the cheaper designs out there that have been certified. Years ago, many Europeans and some Asians paid a premium for Westinghouse plants because of their safer and more reliable design, but US operators saved a bundle buying Babcock&Wilcox. The one at Three Mile Island was a cheap one.

Staffing and maintenance is another area where I just don't trust the bastids to spend the money. You want physicists and chemists with graduate degrees and specific training to be on staff, but they cost money. I've heard tell of operators hiring kids off the streets and OJT'ing them to test cooling water. <gasp>

Every time I think nice thoughts about nuclear power, I think of LILCO, a case study in how greed, outright thievery, and incompetance could have destroyed most of Long Island and left it a wasteland if Shoreham ever went on line.

Nuclear isn't the problem, it could be the solution. It's the damn people who run them who are the problem.







Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Waste problem to be solved
(this is identical to my post on another thread)



If anyone has the link... I read an article recently that, I forget, either Lawrence Livermore or JPL, scientists have begun reducing the half life of waste nuclear material to minutes using lasers. As I recall, it is expected that it will take up to ten years to discover the proper frequencies to deal with all of the various radioactive and irrated waste.

If the process works as reported, all nuclear waste can be made essentially harmless in under a day per batch.

I have no real problem with nuclear power as it stands. Having worked in the disposal end for a number of years in a previous life, I am aware of many of the risks and benefits of the program. The reduction technique described removes virtually all objections from my corner. And yes, I was involved in the clean up at St. Charles, Fernald, Rocky Flats, and others as well as the disposal of spent fuel for active reactors such as Davis-Bessie.

I have not mentioned the obvious concerning monitoring, secondary containment, and a multitude of other issues. Chernobyl taught us much about those issues that I'll not re-hash here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Throckmorton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Actually, the vast majority of US Nuclear plants are GE and
Westinghouse designs. Westinghouse built 48 of the currently operating units, and GE 33. Combustion Engineering built 14, and B&W built 7. General Atomic also built one large commercial unit, Ft St Vrain, but it has been de-commissioned.

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/list-power-reactor-units.html

"I've heard tell of operators hiring kids off the streets and OJT'ing them to test cooling water. <gasp>"

Really, where would this be?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I recall you from Smirking Chimp where you linked this scientifically
illiterate site and demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge of radioactivity, when yow weren't invested in conspiracy theories about John Kerry and Skull and Bones. As I recall, another of your peculiar obsessions you were counting Strontium 90 in Baby teeth.

Here is a direct copy of the radiation quiz I gave you on Sept 4, 2001, questions for which you could not provide one answer, and probably still can't provide a single answer:

Please explain to me, if you're so smart what the specific activity of Sr-90 is and how to calculate it. It's relatively easy for a 2nd year physics student (indeed many high school physics students to give the exact time that 1 mole of Sr-90 will decay to 1 Bq. Compare the radiological hazards of the two fission products Sr-90 and Eu-154. What is the fission yield of Sr-90 and what is the likely concentration of Sr-90 as opposed to other isotopes in a sample of Strontium isolated frrom U-235 with fast neutrons and with thermalized neutrons. Explain what a thermalized neutron is. How does the fission spectrum vary as the fissioned actinide increases in atomic number? Which isotopes would you expect to be fissionable and why? What is the difference between a pure beta emitter like Sr-90 and a pure gamma emitter such as Ba-137m? How is it that Ba-137m with a half life of of 2.25 minutes represents a more dangerous radiological hazard than Sr-90 with a half life of 28.1 years. Why is Cs-135 amenable to transmutation strategies whereas Sr-90 and Pd-107 are not. Why is it unimportant to transmute Sr-90 as compared to I-129. What is Xenon? How was Xenon a factor in the Chernobyl disaster. Why is that Ba-137m with such a short half found in the environment today as a consequence of 1950's nuclear tests? Also explain the effects of complexation on the ingestion of radionuclides. Why can someone swallow 500 grams of Barium sulfate for an x-ray when Barium is toxic at the milligram level? How does the answer to this question about Barium bear on the Sr ingestion? Please discuss intelligently modes of ingestion, solubility of Sr is geological systems, and the forms that Sr must take in order that it can be absorbed my the mammalian digestive tract. What tissues other than bones would you expect Sr to concentrate in and why? If the half-life of free Sr-90 is 28.1 years in the free state, what is its half life in various human tissues in which it concentrates? What are the geochemical hazards of Tc-99? Describe with your vast insight into the subject exactly how one would extract and distinguish the epidemological consequences of Sr-90 ingestion from dental x-rays, from ionizing radiation on transcontinetal plane flights, from Radon releases from coal ash, from benzopyrenes and benzofulvenes in particulate pollution from fossil fired plants. What is the impact of natural gas on global warming? What are the thermodyamic restrictions on the use of biomass as energy, and what are the world's potential resources in this area?

Propose strategies for disposing of the extant 1000 MT of plutonium without using nuclear power. How will Geological disposal impact the isotopic composition of reactor grade plutonium in 1000 years? In 25,000 years? Tell me how you're going to provide basic food and heat for the billions on this planet without nuclear power and without risk to a single living human being. What will be the carrying capacity of the planet tomorrow if we abandon all forms of energy that represent a risk to anyone. How many people will have to drop dead in the next month in order to adjust the population to that new capacity.

When you can answer, never mind generate, these questions as I can off the top of your head, without calling up a friend or hitting the books all night you can tell me you know a lot. (Short cut: You won't find the answers in books written by Ralph Nader.) However, if you could either answer these questions or think of them, it's highly likely you wouldn't be arguing out of such rote idiocy.



Several years later, you are still scientifically illiterate. You don't still don't even understand the basics of what you are talking about.

Nuclear energy saves lives, and there are millions of people living today who would have died from air pollution, toxic pollutants such as mercury and lead and yes, uranium (from coal ash) had nuclear power not been invented.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seasat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. Because of the Dangers inherent in Nuclear, what about...
State run nuclear power plants? Instead of following the trend towards privatizing, have the Federal government build, regulate and control the power plants. I'd be for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinkpops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-03 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nuclear or coal?
How about neither. How much basic research could be done for, say, $87 billion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Very safe until there's a problem
I'm old enough to remember the sales pitch, "Too cheap to meter", as well as wacky ideas of using nukes to build canals and the like.

I don't think nuclear energy has saved millions of lives. At best it's probably a toss up between the damage caused by coal burning vs. nuclear and incalculable anyway.

Is nuclear power safe enough? So far it has been unless you were unfortunate enough to be affected by Chernobyl. There weren't even "that many" people adversly affected, in the big scheme of things that is.

Have we been fortunate up to this point or is the overall injury rate from nuclear plants a testament to their safe design and operation?
I'd say a little of both.

My problem is that one major accident could have horrific consequences.

Take a containment breach at most any plant located in the U.S.. I agree that it probably won't happen, odds are against it, yet it does. Since many of our plants are near major metropolitan areas, the human and financial costs could be astronomical.

I will be for nuclear power when:

1. My homeowners insurance covers me for a nuclear accident and the industry is not relieved from liability.

2. There is a proven, viable, cost-effective method for dealing with all waste. The waste pools are far more dangerous than the reactors.

3. All reactors are moved out of population centers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We don't know what to do with coal wastes, and coal wastes kill for real.
Edited on Mon Oct-27-03 10:12 PM by NNadir
There has yet to be a single death in the United States from commercial nuclear waste storage, not one.

Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions worldwide die from coal waste in the form of carcinogenic compounds such as benzonpyrans, dioxins, heavy metals, etc, without a wimper from anyone.

If the number of people killed in coal mining accidents in the Ukraine received anywhere near the media attention of Chernobyl, there would be no coal plants anywhere.

The fact is that nobody knows what to do with the coal waste, or for that matter the oil waste, or the natural gas waste, but nobody ever mentions that fact. Do you have a solution for the containment ponds storing millions upon millions of metric tons of coal ash produced every year? Do you propose shutting down these plants until we know what to do with this waste?

In the United States we have generated about 77,000 MT of high level nuclear waste. Of this, over 95% is naturally occurring Uranium which has been on the earth since its formation from supernova ash over 4.5 billion years ago. All of this Uranium can be recycled to give more energy. (Contrast this with Coal Ash!) The remaining 5% consists of fission products, many of which have relatively short half lives and actinides which are also recoverable for energy.

Because radioactive waste decays at the same time it is created, there is an upper limit to how much can accumulate, a type of kinetic equilibrium. For instance, if every single watt of energy were obtained from nuclear power in the year 2050, when the world energy demand is estimated to be about 1000 exajoules (10^18 joules = 1 exajoule), it would only be possible to accummulate at maximum about 19,000 MT of Cs-137 (half-life 30.23 years), at which point the Cs-137 would be decaying as fast as it is formed. This amount of "waste" would not accumulate for many hundreds of years of sustained nuclear energy, but as it assymtotically approached this number, it would turn out that the "new" Cesium-137 would be produced at only a few kilos a year, eventually falling to a few grams per year. The total 19,000 tons, were it reached could be contained in a very, very small volume, since the density of Cs-137 is about 1930 kg/m^3, a box about 21 m on a side, the size of a very small 2-story office building. This amount of material is much easier to monitor and control that a few millions of metric tons of coal ash, or billions and billions of tons of carbon dioxide (yes, carbon dioxide is a waste "we don't know what to do with, i.e. the greenhouse effect) dumped into our atmosphere every day.

It actually turns out that Cs-137 in an intelligent society would be an industrial material of great use, since it is, among other things a source of energy. But in a paranoid society, it an element of fear.

Finally, there are many many schemes for treating nuclear waste and effectively neutralizing it, sometimes with the recovery of very valuable materials like the important and extremely expensive elements ruthenium and rhodium. The most important of the waste treatment schemes is partitioning and transmutation, the technology of which is well understood. An entire National Research Council report published in 1998 covered these technologies extensively. Japan, France, and India will be using this technology widely by the end of the twenty-first century, while we, unfortunately will be suffering the poverty resultant of our irrational fear of nuclear energy, fear, I might add that will degrade the environment much faster than if we didn't have them.

As for this rather tired "too cheap to meter" remark, it was issued by a minor government official (not a scientist by the way) in a moment of irrational exuberance. It is incredibly fucking stupid to keep bringing this up, especially since nuclear energy in the United States actually is cheaper in many locations than all of the alternatives, especially if one gives a fully loaded cost including environmental damage and degraded human health. This stupid remark has NO BEARING whatsoever on whether nuclear energy is to be preferred to its alternatives. It turns out that water is not too cheap to meter. Should we shut down all the faucets on earth? Gasoline is not to cheap to meter, and the blood of soldiers is being spilled for the purpose of stealing it (and giving it to Halliburton.) Have you demanded the shutting down of your local gas station? Raising this as an objection to nuclear power is a shibboleth that is completely devoid of critical thinking.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. No need to get snippy, I don't really disagree
"Too cheap to meter" along with "clean energy like the sun" were central themes to the early-60s marketing campaign to sell nuclear power plants to the public. These slogans were used extensively to promote the industry and highlight the hype vs. reality.

Maybe these pithy remarks came from the irrationally exhuberant AEC but are more likely from some creative ad agency. It doesn't really matter.

Obviously there wasn't much critical thinking going on back then as the nuclear energy bandwagon paraded around picking up sponsers to become one of the most heavily subsidized industries. The free-ride on liability has been worth millions if not billions. It is telling that the insurance industry won't cover damages from a nuclear incident. And that highlights the problem. Nuclear can have the best
safety record but if (or to be pessimistic, when) there is a catastrophic accident, then that record becomes a sorry footnote. You might argue that Chernobyl is as bad as it can get but by nature I hope for the best but imagine the worst. The potential human and financial costs of such an event cannot be ignored or discounted.

I have no quarrel with your points on the dangers of coal. Of course, the government and coal industry can share the blame for many of those hundreds of thousands (or millions) of deaths you attribute to coal. The lawsuit filed last week against the EPA by the Northeast states highlights that issue.

As far as the waste problem. It's not how much, it is where. The fact that waste is sitting around in relatively unsecure holding pools should not be tolerated by the government. Talk about a target. Sure NIMBY politics is to blame here. It is unbelievable that, even if Yucca Mt. opens, that it will be many years before the waste is moved offsite from the operating plants. And yes I've read about transmutation. Sounds good. I hope it can be put to work but that doesn't change the fact that today there is a danger.

I don't have irrational fears about nuclear energy. I don't think the plants will blow up in big mushroom clouds. Even the waste is not a problem as long as it stays where it is. After all I don't plan to go sunbathe next to a cooling pool. But these are attractive terrorist targets. Not easy to hit like the WTC but not impossible. This scenario could give a lot of people a very bad day.

There is no doubt that we need to get off fossil fuel. And yes, there are advantages to nuclear. But the nuclear waste problem needs to be dealt with today. Not ten years from now. Hopefully we're smart enough now to not build future plants in the midst of metropolitan areas. And decommissioning is a major headache and expense. I'm
doubtful that these costs are covered by the current funding.

So like it or not, nuclear is a critical supplier to our energy foundation until something better comes along. I'd prefer to see our energy problem addressed through combined conservation, efficiency, solar and wind initiatives but I realize that these are not enough, at least in the short-term.

However nuclear does pose non-trivial risks, no matter how small they might be. Since the current plants aren't going away these issues, particularly waste storage, security, and the human-error factor (which has been at the root of most if not all accidents) need to be addressed immediately no matter the cost.

Still I'll feel that much better when the insurance company removes that rider from my homeowners policy. That'll be my proof that corporate America truly believes in clean,safe nuclear energy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. My insurance doesn't cover me against Demonic possession
but I don't worry about it too much, since it's never happened anywhere. There is not a single property owner in the United States who has had their home damaged by a nuclear power plant, insurance rider or not.

On the other hand, I personally know people whose cars had their paint pitted and metal corrosion as the result of having acidic coal ash rain down from the sky (and God knows what happened to their lungs). Their insurance didn't cover that either.

Insurance companies BTW, are not comprised of nuclear engineers or scientists. Their task is to reduce their own liabilities as much as possible. They are always seeking to legalize exceptions and riders: Hurricanes, floods, earthquakes and I'll bet soon, runaway forest fires. All of these things occur with far more regularity than nuclear accidents. The rider in question is historical. It has nothing at all to do with whether or not nuclear power is safer than the status quo. Thousands of reactor-years of experience have shown that the risks are very low with Pressurized Water Reactors.

I am curious why you think that nuclear "waste" must be dealt with immediately. Has anyone anywhere in the US or Western Europe been injured by it? Is there any indication anywhere (other than Hanford, which is a weapons site) of immenient castastrophe?

Wouldn't it be better to develop a sense of urgency about energy wastes (and procurement schemes like the war in Iraq) that are killing people right now?

The casks containing nuclear "waste" sit rather harmlessly. We should inspect them occassionally, but I don't think they really require any more urgent action. We have decades to scale up the technologies to manage this problem. As Treepig points out either in this or the hydrogen thread, citing an article in the October 17, 2003 issue of Science , the Japanese, the Russians, and the French are all building or planning transmutation accelerator test systems right now. I'm sure they'll have the matter dealt with long before we have to worry about cask failure. Maybe we can give them a few bucks (if our currency is worth anything after Bush) and have them use it to generate clean and safe energy in their homelands. (We'll be suckers if we don't have the technologies ourselves.)

It seems to me that insisting on a immediate solution based on an almost non-existant risk while actual developments are underway to have a safe long term solution is a bit hysterical.

Here's the major problem: Opposition to nuclear power is completely based on "what if?" never on what actually "is." The fact "is" that the alternatives to nuclear power are killing us right now. It is these waste problems, the problems of waste that have not been minimized or wholly displaced by the use of nuclear power, that represents the major need with which we must deal.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Bish Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. quite a bit
but how long would this research take? And how many hundreds of thousands would die from coal wastes in the mean time? Or 87 billion could build at least 43,500,000 kW of nuclear power. This is of course using an extimate of $2,000 per kW which would be considered very high according to most estimates. This would also be more than enough to supply most of America's energy needs. I know your going to say it will take a couple of years to build that many plants. But it would still take less time than researching other sources and then putting them into place. Get rid of coal first. Then try to develop solar and wind. If we can develop solar and wind energy enough that it is viable and efficient, great! But it will never be able to support all of our energy needs. Nuclear can.

Jeff
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Why not solar and wind?
I've read somewhere that a coal fired plant is typically used to supply the electricity for the refining of uranium.

There is already wind ($0.04/KW) that is competitive with fossil fuels. How much could we generate for and $87 billion investment? That's the WRONG QUESTION. The correct question is: for $87 billion, how could we change our energy consumption (via energy efficiency technologies, replacement of old inefficient equipment, recycling, better building design, whatnot) so that we could afford to use just renewable energy sources to supply what we need?

Why do y'all insist on only seeing a future of more of the same massive overbearing consumption? When you're living past your means the bill eventually comes due...and there is no possible argument that the US is living way past its means environmentally speaking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Wind and solar are fine when the wind is blowing and the sun shining.
I am a strong supporter of wind and solar energy. I support the Capewind project for instance, which is opposed by the people of Cape Cod on NIMBY grounds.

But these are at best peak load sources (for which photovoltaics are better since they produce in day light, when typically demand is high.)

The fact is that we need constant load sources, and of these, nuclear energy is clearly the best. It is not perfect, but it is the least risky low cost option.

I think you raise an excellent point that we often forget however, that conservation needs emphasis. We should not use energy gratuitously.

You are wrong about the energy cost of refining Uranium. This is an urban myth. The energy value of uranium far exceeds the energy cost of refining and enriching Uranium. These costs could even be further reduced by using Thorium based fuels, which are extraordinarily cheap. (Almost all of the cost of nuclear energy derive from capital costs.)

We need to shut down fossil fuel operations as quickly as is possible however. They are too dangerous to be allowed to continue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gethmord Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. In the up coming Hydrogen age.
We need not only an effective way to produce power. But one to produce hydroger for fuel cells. This is one solution for both that is being studied.

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,477255,00.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
15. Of course, a little radiation is probably actually good for you . . .
from a recent (October 17) issue of "Science"

HORMESIS:
A Healthful Dab of Radiation?
Jocelyn Kaiser
The notion that certain toxic chemicals can be healthful in small doses is stirring new controversy (see main text), but a similar debate about low-dose ionizing radiation has been raging for decades. Now, research that could shed light on possible "radiation hormesis," much of it funded by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), is well under way. Although these studies may not soon alter regulators' assumption that any dose of radiation is harmful, the findings about low-dose effects may be provocative.

Radiation risks are now calculated based mainly on cancers among 86,600 survivors of the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan. These human data "are the gold standard," notes carcinogenesis expert Julian Preston of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The incidence of solid cancers in the survivors rises in a straight line with dose. This suggests that any increase in dose delivers an increase in risk, with no safe level of radiation. But at the lowest doses, there are too few cancers to calculate the actual risks. "The numbers are just not there," says radiobiologist Eric Hall of Columbia University in New York City. To be cautious, public health agencies extrapolate risk in a straight line from higher to lower doses. That leaves open the possibility that something unexpected is going on below the threshold of measured effects.

In this zone, there are hints that a little radiation could even be beneficial. The Japanese bomb survivors who received the lowest doses are living longer than controls, for example. Some studies have found a slightly lower incidence of cancer in people living in places such as western China and Colorado, where natural background radiation levels are three to four times higher than the global average of 2.4 millisieverts per year. And studies dating back to the 1950s report that rodents live about 10% to 20% longer if exposed to small amounts of radiation, notes cancer researcher Arthur Upton of the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey.

the full article is at

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/302/5644/378
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Goody
Now I'm glad that the above-ground nuke tests took place during my growing years
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. i suspect that you're aware
that applying the excesses of the cold war weapons program (i.e., atmospheric realise of radionuclides, hanford, etc) to commercial nuclear power generation is a completely dishonest and misleading comparison?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cannikin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Dont worry Mad-as-hell
I caught the joke. Your humor wasnt lost on everyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tyme Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. a little bit of everything good for ya?
From my knowledge of biochemistry, chemistry, and microbioly. We are all programmed with this wonderous ability to correct dna errors. Not only do we have built in checking but we also have cells which kill cells which did not correctly replicate. The problem with cancer is a cell which continues to multiply and correctly authenticates itself to killer cells. This change can be caused at many points aloong the dna chain and from not only radiation but also from other chemical conditions within the cell. So, its all a big crap shoot. As our bodies age we loose some of the ability to correct dna problems and are more prone to cancers. All this has been proven and well documeented and some study suggesting that a little more radiation is good inspires a little more than doubt in my mind. Physiologists need jobs so they do these studies without having any idea how something works. The scientific community views this with great criticism but its not so hard to convince the public. Additionally, scientists are no dummies at jockying numbers around to form a point. But the point is not proven until it stands up to criticism, until i see the full survey and notes, i'll keep myself away from as much radiation as possible.
tyme
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowFLAKE Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. you can mock biologists, but the fact remains
that radiation hormesis is real. for an explanation let’s consider the case of cancer in more detail. the reason that the incidence of cancer increases as people age is not because their cells lose the ability to repair dna, but rather because a whole set of mutations must accumulate over time for cancer to develop. for the purpose of this discussion, let’s say there are five necessary mutations: A, B, C, D and E, that must occur in the same cell to convert it from the healthy to malignant state;

over time, each of these mutations randomly accumulate in cells; again, for the purposes of this discussion, let’s assume that by age 65, mutation A has occurred in one out of every 1000 cells of your body. however, mutation A alone cannot cause cancer so you’re OK.

now let’s consider that mutation B is independently occurring at the same rate and slowly accumulating in your cells. so when you’re 65, one out of 1000 of your cells will also have this mutation, but (once again), that’s OK because mutation B, by itself, does not cause cancer. but, if 1/1000 cells has mutation A and 1/1000 cells has mutation B, that means that (1/1000) x (1/1000), or 1/1,000,000 (one in a million) cells will have both mutation A and mutation B. such as cell, while still not cancerous, is nevertheless a step further along the pathway to becoming so.

we can repeat a similar analysis for mutations C, D, and E. at the end, we need to calculate what the chance is that all mutations will occur in a single cell. continuing the numbers from our example, that would be (1/1000) x (1/1000) x (1/1000) x (1/1000) x (1/1000), or 1 out of 10e15 cells (that’s one out of a quadrillion cells). a cell with all five mutations would be a cancer cell, grow into a tumor, etc. etc.

so what do the above numbers mean (part 1)? if you have 10e13 cells in your body (not an exact, but a reasonable estimate), your chance of getting the type of cancer in this example at the age 65 would be (1/10e15) x (10e13), or 1/100 (one in a hundred). (incidently, when you hear of cancer-causing genes, basically what that means is that one of the five cancer-causing mutations occurs in the germ line, and is therefore in all your cells. in this case, only four mutations need to arise in the same cell to give you cancer, thereby increasing the odds 1000-fold, or from one in a hundred to 10 to 1, that you'll get this type of cancer).

so what do the above numbers mean (part 2)? another implication is that if you can slow down the rate at which mutations occur, the older you will be before you get a particular type of cancer. ideally, you’ll be so old that you’ll die from some other cause. anyhow, the vast majority of dna damage (which leads to mutations if unrepaired) is caused by normal metabolism. also, the bulk of damaged dna is rapidly repaired by several dozen different types of dna repair enzymes found in each cell. now is where the helpful effects of radiation come in. at certain doses, radiation will transiently raise the level of dna damage (by a few percent over background, which is really no problem for a cell because it’s used to repairing dna and the radiation-induced damage will be repaired in a few hours). but, at the same time, the radiation stimulates the production of dna repair enzymes. generally these higher levels of repair enzymes persist in cells for several days or weeks (i.e., long after the dna damage caused by the radiation is repaired). consequently, the naturally-occurring dna damage is repaired more effectively during this time period, and the onset of cancer is slowed.

of course proving that radiation hormesis is effective is almost impossible. from the above discussion, it can be envisioned that a controlled “clinical” study would involve following cohorts of persons regularly exposed to hormetic doses of radiation with those who weren’t (variability in environmental levels of radiation makes controlled exposure to fairly low, hormetic doses, almost impossible however). further, such a study would have to be conducted for, say, 65 years. and then repeated in triplicate. clearly, although the cellular basis of hormesis is well established, the study of the effects of radiation hormesis in people is at a very elementary stage and not enough is known about the exact doses needed for beneficial effects, or when the amount crosses over to being harmful. therefore, it’s likely not a good idea to go and deliberately expose yourself to radiation at this point (and, in any event, you really don’t have to since all those coal-burning power plants do it for you)

if you wish to find out more, i urge you to check out the peer-reviewed literature by doing a search at the national institute of health’s PUBMED site:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Search&DB=PubMed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Extremely interesting. I'd not thought of a hormesis mechanism.
Edited on Mon Jan-19-04 03:19 PM by NNadir
Following your link and searching hormesis I found this abstract showing that the effect seems to be real in the fruit fly model:

Tsitol Genet. 2003 May-Jun; 37(3): 41-8.





Vaiserman AM, Litoshenko AIa, Kvitnitskaia-Ryzhova TIu, Koshel' NM, Mozzhukhina TG, Mikhal'skii SA, Voitenko VP.

The long-term effects of the R-irradiation of D. melanogaster at the 1-hour egg stage with the dosages of 0.25, 0.50, 0.75, 1.0, 2.0 and 4.0 Gy were investigated. DNA samples were isolated from whole 5-6-days adult males. The aliquots of DNA were digested by S1-nuclease. Preimaginal stage lethality increased with irradiation dose increasing. At the same time, decrease in imaginal LS (life span) was observed after irradiation with the greatest dose (4 Gy) only. Moreover, hormesis by LS has revealed: in males irradiation with 0.25, 0.75 and 1 Gy increased the mean LS, and with 0.25 and 0.5 Gy caused the maximum LS; in females exposures with 0.25, 0.75 and 2 Gy increased the maximum LS. The densitometric assay of DNA electrophoregrams showed decrease by 39.2% of the part of high-molecular-weight DNA in control as a result of S1-nuclease action. Samples of DNA from the irradiated flies were more stable to enzyme action. The higher stability of DNA originated from the irradiated flies could be the result of reparation system activation. Ultrastructural changes induced at the egg stage by irradiation at the dose of 0.75 Gy testify the increased transcriptional activity of the brain cells.

PMID: 12945182

Thanks for an interesting post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arko Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-18-04 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. This point cannot be made often enough
We need nuclear power NOW. Being a typical nerd I used to Brose the technical floor at the U of A. I several years ago I stumbled across some safety reports from Nuke plant in Russellville, AR. The report compared the increase in background radiation near the old Nuke plant with the brand new SWEPCO coal fired plant in Gentry, AR. Within the first two years of operation the back ground radiation around the coal plant exceeded twenty years of operation of the Nuke plant.

The other side of the situation is that politics has made building a nuclear plant almost impossible. After the the "China Syndrome", the Silkwood case a Kerr-McGee, and Three Mile Island nuclear power has been shutdown. I don't know when the last plant was built. Regulatory requirements for coal plants have almost shut down the expansion and construction of those plants.

The bad news is instead of nuclear plants the power companies are building natural gas fired turbine generating plants. And they have become the number 1 consumers of natural gas and have increased the demand to a point where natural gas prices are skyrocketing. We need nuclear powered generation plants right now, not later.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Which regulations are you referring to?
"Regulatory requirements for coal plants have almost shut down the expansion and construction of those plants.
"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arko Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Not sure
As I understand it there are volumes of Federal registers full of them. Some of which make the cost of constructing new plants prohibitive.

I haven't heard of any new coal fired plants in this area. On top of that some regulations require the upgrade of the entire plant if extra capacity is added. Which has actually held up improvements to plants.

We are running short on power. And I don't see the new plants that will help being built. I believe Ca. waived a bunch of regulations to get more plants under contruction there. I don't know how they will be powered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Coal emissions can be cleaned up
The technology exists to sharply reduce harmful emissions from existing coal plants. Has for some time.

The industry claims it would be too expensive to retrofit the plants. The costs of not doing so have been substantial.

The government could take a fraction of the money that currently subsidizes Iraq (or nuclear energy for that matter) and implement the technology.

Obviously given the political situation that will not happen.

Coal is a nasty energy source. But the environmental damage could be mostly mitigated. All it takes is money.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tyme Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
22. A bad idea but your facts are right
Lawrence Livermore has been researching fusion for many years. To tell you the truth i think anything can be done if we put our minds to it. The idea of going to more nuclear would cost alot of money, i believe this money could be much better spent finishing research on fusion and we can shut down all these silly plants.
tyme
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Once again, you cannot have fusion power without fission power.
I say this in every nuclear thread. Fusion power, should it ever become practical, will depend on tritium. Tritium cannot be bred with a breeding ratio greater than from lithium because the D + T -> He-4 + n is a mononeutronic process. Therefore one needs to make some tritium in fission reactors, which have higher breeding ratios. (All tritium today is made this way.) It may be hundreds of years, if ever, that a D + D fusion reactor (that will not require tritium) will be possible.

There is absolutlely nothing silly about existing and proposed advanced nuclear fission plants. What is silly, grotesque in fact, is that people would block this technology which is the safest (by any measure) industrial energy producing technology currently available. If one held any other energy producing industry to the same criteria to which our ignorance (arbitrarily) holds the nuclear energy industry, energy production would mostly have to cease on earth. This, the shutdown of any form of energy having any risks, would be an enormous catastrophe leading to many billions of deaths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue May 14th 2024, 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC