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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 02:22 PM
Original message
Electric Prices in Europe come DOWN thanks to burgeoning Wind Power supply
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-23/windmill-boom-curbs-electric-power-prices-for-rwe-update1-.html


"..operators in Europe may have become their own worst enemy, reducing the total price paid for electricity in Germany, Europe’s biggest power market, by as much as 5 billion euros some years, according to a study this week by Poeyry, a Helsinki-based industry consultant."


"Spanish power prices fell an annual 26 percent in the first quarter because of the surge in supplies from wind and hydroelectric production, the Spanish wind-industry trade group said in a statement yesterday on its Web site."

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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. With the NIMBYism here,you won't see much. Cape Wind has been trying
for years in MA.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Cape Wind signed an agreement to buy 130 Wind Turbines from Siemens Energy.
http://www.capewind.org/


Cape Wind signs deal to buy offshore turbines

Thursday, April 01, 2010

Cape Wind, the Boston company awaiting final approval of a federal permit to build a controversial offshore wind farm in Nantucket Sound, said yesterday it has signed an agreement to buy 130 wind turbines for the project from Siemens Energy Inc.

At the same time, Siemens said it will open an office in Boston for US offshore wind projects.

...Ian A. Bowles, Massachusetts Secretary of Energy and Environmental Affairs, said a Siemens office in Boston will help the state’s efforts to grow an alternative energy industry. “Europe is 20 years ahead of us in wind energy, and there’s a lot we can learn from them,’’ Bowles said.

Specifically, Bowles said that Siemens has experience with a scale of wind development that will allow Massachusetts to become a national leader in offshore wind energy.

Governor Deval Patrick praised the development. “The opening of a local Siemens offshore wind energy office is another significant step forward for the clean energy industry we have growing in Massachusetts,’’ Patrick said in a statement.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. They expect a final determination from Salazar at the end of this month. nt
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Now it will be sustainable and profitable. What will the Coal defenders do?
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. That may be why prices are dropping.
Cheaper electricity is, the less viable wind/solar is. Coal/NG energy normally produce substantial profits. But wind/solar threatens the business. So coal/NG will take a hit for a while (by reducing prices) in order to blunt solar/winds momentum.

I fully expect that, when Nissans Leaf and Toyotas plug in Prius come onto the market, that we will then see the cheapest gasoline prices in years. Same effect.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. All I can say is "Bring it on".
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Ernesto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R!!! nt
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kick and rec
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kick
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Don't you think you should read the report before you decide to pump it?
There's more than one thing in there that you won't be pleased with.

Especially onsidering the source (and how you would respond if it were a similar nuclear source).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I did read it, but I didn't need to.
This is an expected part of the process as the near term market becomes saturated with sources that have no fuel cost.

As for the sources of information in the article, industry data is industry data. *I* always keep that in mind and lean towards independent and academic sources; YOU AND YOUR COHORTS are the ones that are worshippers at the temple of the nuclear industry.

You are the one that claimed the conclusions of a large complex study are "debunked" because one of 5 sources for ONE data point was ACCUSED of being inaccurate by the Nuclear Energy Institute.

Think about that - you probably posted 50 times that Jacobson's study had been "debunked" yet you wouldn't provide a source of the "debunking" and when you FINALLY were shamed into backing up your assertions, you came up with that accusation mentioned above.

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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. lol
As for the sources of information in the article, industry data is industry data. *I* always keep that in mind and lean towards independent and academic sources; YOU AND YOUR COHORTS are the ones that are worshippers at the temple of the nuclear industry.

Yeah... except that your definition of "independent and academic sources" is "anyone who agrees with kristopher". Anyone else is by definition "part of the nuclear industry" -

Think about that - you probably posted 50 times that Jacobson's study had been "debunked" yet you wouldn't provide a source of the "debunking" and when you FINALLY were shamed into backing up your assertions, you came up with that accusation mentioned above.

You obviously have me confused with someone else. Though I suspect it's an imaginary "someone else"

You are the one that claimed the conclusions of a large complex study are "debunked" because one of 5 sources for ONE data point was ACCUSED of being inaccurate by the Nuclear Energy Institute.


Where was this?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Of course having free subsidies per unit of power also helps.
Which is why many wind farms sell power at a loss. Thats right THEY PAY CONSUMERS to take the power. Why? I mean even with fuel costs why not just idle the farm rather than sell power at a loss.

Well because they aren't losing money. With subsidies per kwh they can sell it at a loss and taxpayers absorb the loss.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. and which energy sector doesn't receive "free subsidies" - especially nuclear power
yup
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Not $20 per MWh. Nothing thas subsidies that high except wind/solar.
With subsidies that high a wind farm can literally pay people to take unwanted power and still remain cash flow positive.

Pay consumer $10-$15 per MWh to waste energy they don't need and collect $20 per MWh from taxpayers. Of course that is sustainable. :rofl:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I guess the taxpayer cost of building & operating the nuclear fuel cycle doesn't count
and all those uranium enrichment plants didn't get no "free subsidies" from Uncle Sam!

:rofl:



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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Of course they did just not on the scale of $20 per MWh (which is what wind/solar get).
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 02:40 PM by Statistical
Not even close.

Nothing receives subsidies on a scale large enough to pay people to take power they neither need nor want and still remain cash flow positive because the taxpayer will bail you out.

As long as wind remains a small amount of power the losses are not relevant however as it grows the subsidies will need to be at least changed (like subsidies only paid on power sold with positive price).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Bullshit again.
The nuclear lobbyists made sure that new nuclear power is eligible for the same production tax credit as wind and solar.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Only ever claimed but you but never proven. n/t
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I told you it is in the 2005 energy bill.
Look it up.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. $1328392132 trillion dollars for solar in 2005 energy bill. Look it up. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. LOLLOLOLOL!!11 - taxpayers paid ALL the R&D costs to develop nuclear power
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 02:58 PM by jpak
and taxpayers built ALL the uranum enrichment plants and in the good old days the taxpayers enriched nuclear fuel for commercial reactors at cost, and paid reactor operators for the plutonium they produced in spent fuel, and taxpayers have to clean up ALL the shit from the failed spent fuel processing plant in West Valley NY ($10 billion) and clean up all 750,000 tonnes of uranium hexafluoride at US uranium enrichment plants and pay ALL the compensation to all the uranium workers that mined, converted and enriched uranium for nuclear fuel and taxpayers limited reactor operators accident liability (Price-Anderson Act - taxpayers pick up the tab) and ratepayers paid for the billion dollar Three Mile Island accident and rate&tax payers paid ALL the $112 billion in stranded costs for the 100+ reactors that were scrapped in the 70's and '80's and Ronald Reagan took spent fuel off the hands of reactor operators and gave it ALL to taxpayers and taxpayers have to babysit ALL that shit and pay for the vast majority long term spent fuel disposal costs...

need I go on?

:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Still not as much as renewable energy has received over last 50 years.
Also current subsidies for wind/solar are 15x higher than that of nuclear.

So renewable energy has received more subsidies historically

AND
currently renewable energy receives a massive and unsustainable subsidy of $23 per MWh (just for reference the average wholesale power in US is $50 - $65 per MWh).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You actually think sane people believe that garbage, don't you?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. That is ridiculous and WRONG - show me the money!!!
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 03:17 PM by jpak
Show me any energy spending bill in any year ANY year where renewables received MORE funding than nuclear.

show me the money!!!
show me the money!!!
show me the money!!!
show me the money!!!



:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. You are aware hydro is a renewable form of energy right?
Kris went through this just a couple days ago. Don't you shills compare notes.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Answer the question - show me the money!!!!11111
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 03:25 PM by jpak
:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Here
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/subsidy/appendix_a.html

Management Information Services, Inc. (MISI), conducting a study of the cumulative effects of energy subsidies, found that by 1997 Federal subsidies for energy had amounted to $564 billion (1997 dollars) over the last five decades, roughly half of which went to the oil industry in the form of tax expenditures. (84) MISI considered eight categories of Federal activity (85) and quantified subsidies in six. In contrast to other findings, MISI found that subsidies to renewable sources ($90 billion) outpaced those to natural gas ($73 billion), coal ($68 billion), or nuclear energy ($61 billion)


Virtually every major hydro-electric plant in the United States was fully subsidized by taxpayers.
The reality is more subsidies have been spent on renewable energy than nuclear despite nuclear providing the majority of low-carbon power.

That trend has accelerated since 2000 with the PTC and a massive $20 per MWh. If nuclear power received a subsidy that large it would be $16 billion per year.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. ummm...you should add at least $100+ billion to the nuclear subsidy - for disposing spent fuel
yup!
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Utilities pay for disposing of fuel and 2/3 of Yucca will be for weapons waste.
The idea that only a tiny amount of money was spent on renewable energy is a joke. A large (and growing) amount of subsidies has been spent on renewable energy.

This is a good thing however $23/MWh is simply not sustainable. If wind/solar were ever to have a significant marketshare (5%-10%) the costs would become massive.
Wind operators are already gaming the system by paying people to dispose of power (just wating power not needed or wanted) in order to collect the subsidy rather than idle the farm or store the energy.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Wrong, taxpayers will pay most it and nuclear received FAR more "free subsidies" than wind or solar
yup!

:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Wrong again. Renewables have received 60% of low-carbon subsidies to date
2/3rd of the cost of Yucca (or its replacement) will be paid for my taxpayers. Why?
Because 2/3rd of the waste going there was part of US nuclear weapons program over the last 50 years.

Utilities (and thus ratepayers) have paid their fair share especially when you consider the money has been collected by the govt for decades. That money has interest/time value. Just because the govt due to politics did a piss poor job of managing the expenditures isn't the fault of utilities.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Wrong again - if you subtract federal subsidies for hydro going back to the New Deal and further
and before the Atomic Energy Act - nuclear got WAY more "free subsidies" than wind or solar combined.

And GOP Governors, Legislatures, Congresses and Presidents have done everything they could to kill the solar and wind industry in this country.

Sorry - no revisionist history for you.

:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Nope. Wrong yet again. Read the quote it is in last 50 years.
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 05:17 PM by Statistical
While nuclear may have gotten more subsidies than wind so did hydro.
Did "big hydro" kill wind power?

Renewable energy received 60% of non-carbon subsidies in last 50 years*.

Even if you split out hydro it breaks down to about 40% nuclear, 40% hydro, 20% other renewable energy. Hardly the landslide of subsidies for nuclear energy you make it out to be.

Nuclear got 40% of funding and produces 20% of power.
Hydro got 40% of funding and produces 8% of power.
Wind/Solar got 20% of funding and produces <2% of power.

Seems like the ROI on nuclear was pretty good!

* (The study was in 1997 since then subsidies for wind/solar have exploded so likely the number is even higher today.)
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Last 50 years, huh - back to say...1960...but not including ALL the taxpayer investments
into nuclear R&D before then - like the entire Manhattan Project and all the infrastructure of the nuclear fuel cycle - especially the uranium enrichment plants

or the naval reactor program that the spent most R&D $$$ that lead to the commercialization of nuclear power - that one goes back to 1949.

disingenuous much?

yup!

:rofl:

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Nice post, needs to be copy+pasted when the dishonest stuff comes out.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Yeah like all the Manhattan Project R&D that "doesn't count" and future spent fuel disposal costs
funded by taxpayers - in the future - which "doesn't count" either, cuz the nuclear power industry won't pay for that either....

Enron AIG sub-prime mortgage derivative Silverado S&L nuclear R&D accounting at its ridiculous worst.

yup

:rofl:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. If we ever moved to Gen IV I'm sure it'd be profitable to sell.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Is there any govt' funding of this future profitable Gen IV R&D?
or is this just another taxpayer funded rathole nucular subsidy?

:D
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Profit, profit, profit.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. nope nope nope
:D
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Profit isn't your leading driver? Good! We're on the same page!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. profit is the driver, that's why the nuclear industry dumped their spent fuel on the taxpayers
yup
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. The billions of tonnes of CO2 free energy...
...more than paid for the externalized costs of spent fuel storage.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I'm sorry but nuclear power is not CO2-free - not by a long shot
and CO2 emissions from the nuclear fuel cycle will grow as uranium ore quality declines

yup

:rofl:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Billions of kilowatts of CO2 free energy.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. nope - not even close
sorry no NEI talking points for you

:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. Kinda like you dump your waste on the city?
Oh wait you pay for that service. Trash collection & sewage.

Sorta like the utilities were forced to do. Except the utilities pay the bill each month and the govt never comes to pickup the spent fuel.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Society should pay for its externalized costs of energy!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. yes it should
yup
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Then good, we're definitely getting somewhere.
I hope that you appreciate that the billions of tonnes of CO2 not released by the operation of nuclear power in the United States has a tangible external benefit.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. $150 / tonne carbon tax now!
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 06:22 PM by joshcryer
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Retroactively subtract $150 / tonne CO2 saved from the nuclear "bill."
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Nuclear is in the green if you do that! :)
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. Manhattan project had nothing to do with nuclear energy.
That cost was sunk. If there never had been a single nuclear reactor the Manhattan project would have been spent. The goal of Manhattan project was to develop weapons. Including it makes about as much sense as including cost of B-2 bomber in costs of nuclear energy because the B-2 can carry atomic bombs.

First nuclear reactor program began in 1951. Inside the 50 years of the study.

Renewable energy has received 60% of subsidies in last 50 years and continues to receive more subsidies than nuclear energy today.

Of course I am for subsidies for renewable energy just as I am for subsidies on all low carbon energy.

In a perfect world we would simply tax all carbon at $150 and there would be no need for any subsidies (except pure R&D).
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. You have got to be kidding - did nuclear industry R&D build US uranium enrichment plants?
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 06:32 PM by jpak
did they do the R&D on atomic piles and plutonium production reactors?

sorry no revisonist history for you

nope
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. I guess you don't understand the concept of sunk cost.
Imagine to worlds

World A) Manhattan Project existed and no nuclear power.

World B) Manhattan Project existed and nuclear power developed.

In both instances the costs of Manhattan project existed. At the time to make a decision on developing nuclear power you couldn't "undo" that. As of 1951 the costs were already sunk. If we never developed a single commercial power reactor those costs would have been paid. To date nuclear weapons program has cost about $7 trillion. That $7 trillion would be spent with or without nuclear power.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. I guess you don't understand the technological and historical connections between nuclear weapons
& nuclear power

no historical revision for you

ever

period

the end
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. So that's the magical "if I say it enough it will be true" strategy of the right?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. bingo - these folks think history will just go *poof* if they say so
yup
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Even if that were true...
WHY would you subtract federal subsidies for hydro?

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Well that is exactly what Kris did in another thread.
Hydro is always added to wind/solar when accounting for renewable marketshare / capacity / generation.

However hydro is always removed when accounting for actual funding.

There is no logical reason to remove hydro from total subsidies except to be dishonest.

Hydro is a form of renewable energy. Renewable energy has received 60% (likely more today) of subsidies between 1947 & 1997 (date of study).
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Hydro is a success as far as subsidies, nuclear is a failure.
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 06:02 PM by kristopher
Going forward conventional hydro isn't a part of the subsidy picture, it is a fully developed industry that doesn't require subsidies. What DOES require ONGOING MASSIVE SUBSIDIES is the NUCLEAR INDUSTRY. Among the technologies that we are debating subsidies for, nuclear has had 96% of the subsidies over the past 50 years.

Ethanol has had most of the rest of the 4%.

Hydrogen has gotten a big chunk of the itty bit that remains.

And of THAT, wind, solar, storage, conservation, and energy efficiency have had to split the rest.

But look at the result. ALL plans for a noncarbon economy are built around renewables - ALL of them. SOME plans have a mix where nuclear is a bit player. That's it. After 50 years of massive subsidies nuclear MIGHT be a bit player IF they can do a whole laundry list of things they've never accomplished before and....

to do that....

wait for it...

wait for it...

THEY NEED ANOTHER MASSIVE INFUSION OF PUBLIC FUNDS!!!

Let's take a look at what is actually in that MIT study you nuclear lovers love to point to as the definitive word on nuclear power:
Over the next 50 years, unless patterns change dramatically, energy production and use will contribute to global warming through large-scale greenhouse gas emissions — hundreds of billions of tonnes of carbon in the form of carbon dioxide. Nuclear power could be one option for reducing carbon emissions. At present, however, this is unlikely: nuclear power faces stagnation and decline.

This study analyzes what would be required to retain nuclear power as a significant option for reducing greenhouse gas emissions and meeting growing needs for electricity supply. Our analysis is guided by a global growth scenario that would expand current worldwide nuclear generating capacity almost threefold, to 1000 billion watts,by the year 2050.Such a deployment would avoid 1.8 billion tonnes of carbon emissions annually from coal plants, about 25% of the increment in carbon emissions otherwise expected in a business-as-usual scenario. This study also recommends changes in government policy and industrial practice needed in the relatively near term to retain an option for such an outcome. (Want to guess what these are? - K)

We did not analyze other options for reducing carbon emissions — renewable energy sources, carbon sequestration,and increased energy efficiency — and therefore reach no conclusions about priorities among these efforts and nuclear power. In our judgment, it would be a mistake to exclude any of these four options at this time.

STUDY FINDINGS
For a large expansion of nuclear power to succeed,four critical problems must be overcome:

Cost. In deregulated markets, nuclear power is not now cost competitive with coal and natural gas.However,plausible reductions by industry in capital cost,operation and maintenance costs, and construction time could reduce the gap. Carbon emission credits, if enacted by government, can give nuclear power a cost advantage.

Safety.
Modern reactor designs can achieve a very low risk of serious accidents, but “best practices”in construction and operation are essential.We know little about the safety of the overall fuel cycle,beyond reactor operation.

Waste.
Geological disposal is technically feasible but execution is yet to be demonstrated or certain. A convincing case has not been made that the long-term waste management benefits of advanced, closed fuel cycles involving reprocessing of spent fuel are outweighed by the short-term risks and costs. Improvement in the open,once through fuel cycle may offer waste management benefits as large as those claimed for the more expensive closed fuel cycles.

Proliferation.
The current international safeguards regime is inadequate to meet the security challenges of the expanded nuclear deployment contemplated in the global growth scenario. The reprocessing system now used in Europe, Japan, and Russia that involves separation and recycling of plutonium presents unwarranted proliferation risks.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. There is about nothing correct in that post
1) Hydro still has subsidies today

2) Even if you separate out hydro it would look like this:
Hydro: $62.5 billion (41%)
Other renewable: $27.5 (19%)
Nuclear: $61 billion (40%)

Thus nuclear received about 40% of total subsidies and "non-hydro renewables" received 20%. Still not your bogus 96% stat.

Still if you wanted to be silly we could look at ONLY non-hydro low carbon subsidies.
Other renewable: $27.5 (38%)
Nuclear: $61 billion (62%)

In the totally useless stat of "non-carbon, non-hydro" subsidies nuclear is still only 62% (and produced 99% of energy). So you 96% number is still bogus.
Then again "non-carbon, non-hydro" subsidies? I mean that is kinda gerrymandering the stats wouldn't you say?

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. You haven't realized that the data you're responding to is dishonest manipulation?
It's not grounded in reality and is made by someone who doesn't think CO2 is a significant problem.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. you realize there are CO2 emissions from the nuclear fuel cycle - it is NOT CO2 free
and anything to the contrary is a dishonest manipulation

yup
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. All "carbon free" sources have carbon costs.
Generally speaking since they are a 95%+ reduction compared to coal they are considered "carbon free".

Still "carbon free" or "low carbon" the metric is the same because nuclear, wind, solar, hydro, geothermal all have carbon costs.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. The only thing bogus is everything you write.
"Wind, solar and nuclear power received approximately $150 billion in cumulative Federal subsidies over roughly fifty years, some 95% of which supported nuclear power. Perhaps more significant, nuclear power received far higher levels of support per kilowatt-hour generated early in its history than did wind or solar."

FEDERAL ENERGY SUBSIDIES: NOT ALL TECHNOLOGIES ARE CREATED EQUAL
by Marshall Goldberg
Renewable Energy Policy Project July 2000 • No. 11

Marshall Goldberg is the principal of MRG & Associates, an environmental and
economics consulting firm in Madison, WI. Mr. Goldberg is a resource planner
specializing in energy and environmental policy analysis. He can be contacted at
MRGRes@aol.com.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Well the DOE disagrees. Not surprising a anti-nukker would inflate cost of nuclear by 150%.
It is funny how all anti-nukkers read from same playbook.

Step 1) Always ignore hydro - it never happened.
Step 2) Always ignore current subsidies - they aren't important.

:rofl:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Yup, we'll ignore the $54 billion in taxpayer loan guarantees to build the new 1st nukes since 1973
yup

:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Well couple problems with that.
1) There is no $54 billion. To date it is $8.3. I am glad you support the $54 billion expansion though. The only reason to consider the $54 billion now is if you think it will happen.

2) The loan guarantee program is $60 billion of which only $14.5 billion is allocated for nuclear projects. If you include all nuclear loan guarantees you certainly will include all the solar and wind loan guarantees too right?

3) A loan guarantee doesn't cost 100% of the guarantee amount. Net cost = default rate *(loan amount - recovery amount) - any subsidy fees.
So if 20% of nuclear loan guarantees fail and the govt loses 30% on each one (after reselling partially completed reactor to third party) and charged 2% in subsidy fees the net loss would be something like 4% not 100%. Much in the same way that a bank loans only 80% of value of a home and has to forceclose the loss rate is not 100% of what is loaned.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. more than a couple - 54 billion to be exact
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 09:08 PM by jpak
yup

Just like the Price-Anderson Act limiting the accident liability of nuclear plant operators

yup yup

spin like a top

yup yup yup

:rofl:

Oh yeah the nuclear industry has a piss poor track record on stranded costs - all $112 billion

care to explain that thingy away too?

didn't think so

:rofl:

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
75. Yippie kai ya y'all! Kudos to the collective peoples of the Eiropean Union.
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