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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 07:07 PM
Original message
Public perceptions of problems at nuclear reactors are being cut down to size


"Getting an accurate bead on nuclear energy controversies is often more an issue of changing perceptions than the reshaping the physical dimensions of a problem. Also, the realities of having nuclear reactors that generate electricity in place can trump idealistic visions of replacing them with something new. These principles apply to three nuclear reactor projects which are the subject of much anti-nuclear ire.

Plans for a proposed third reactor for Dominion’s North Anna site were tested in a stockholder motion to cancel the project. However, growing demand for electricity in Virginia, which imports more of it than any other state except California, quickly made firewood of that idea.

Replacement of the 2 GWe of electricity generated by Entergy’s Indian Point site with high cost fossil fuel, and the limits of the existing transmission lines to bring it to the New York city region, have got some opponents having second thoughts. The possibility was raised that if reactors are shut down it could seriously impact the tri-state region’s extensive network of electrified commuter rail lines which keep tens of thousands of cars a day off the highways.

Finally, the NRC issued a statement saying that leaks of radioactive liquids at Entergy’s Vermont Yankee resulted in 'no violations of NRC requirements,’ and 'no findings of significance were identified.'"

http://djysrv.blogspot.com/2010/05/mountains-into-molehills.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FYiuo+%28Idaho+Samizdat%29

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sure, kid.
Which mutant ninja turtle size would that be?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm gonna say about the size of your contribution
XS? :D
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. Can you name one permanent nuclear waste storage facility any where on this planet?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yucca Mountain
which is, for political reasons, only temporarily inoperable.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Sure. Onkalo, Finland
Edited on Tue May-25-10 10:25 AM by Statistical


Also the US has been operating the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant for a decade now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_Plant


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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The Onkalo site doesn't exist yet and the other is a pilot plant for nuclear weapon
Edited on Tue May-25-10 11:46 AM by Fledermaus
waste. It is not open for nuclear power waste.



Since 1991, the United States Department of Energy has been working with a team of linguists, scientists, science fiction writers, anthropologists and futurists to come up with such a warning system. The markers, called "passive institutional controls", will include an outer perimeter of 32, 25-foot-tall granite pillars built in a four-mile (6 km) square. These pillars will surround an earthen wall, 33 feet (10 m) tall and 100 feet (30 m) wide. Enclosed within this wall will be another 16 granite pillars. At the center, directly above the waste site, will sit a roofless, 15-foot (4.6 m) granite room providing more information. The team intends to etch warnings and informational messages into the granite slabs and pillars. This information will be recorded in the six official languages of the United Nations (English, Spanish, Russian, French, Chinese, Arabic) as well as the Native American Navajo language native to the region, with additional space for translation into future languages . Pictograms are also being considered, such as stick figure images and the iconic "The Scream" from Edvard Munch's painting. Complete details about the plant will not be stored on site, instead, they would be distributed to archives and libraries around the world. The team plans to submit their final plan to the U.S. Government by around 2028.<9>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_Nuclear_Power_Plant
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. .
Edited on Tue May-25-10 11:48 AM by Statistical
"name one permanent nuclear waste storage facility any where on this planet"
I did. I named two. You didn't say anything about spent fuel.

WIPP shows that spent fuel repository is simply a political not technical issue. There is no political objections over safely storing weapons waste thus it was built. We built WIPP, we could build Yucca or any other site politics has prevented it. The anti-nukkers will never allow a spent fuel site to be built. It eliminates their greatest canard.

Anti "logic"
"We can't have nuclear energy without a place to store waste, and we will always prevent creation of a place to store waste thus we can never have nuclear power."


Unlike Yucca Mountain construction in ongoing at Onkalo and there is no political will to oppose it. The progressive Fins understand that even if nuclear power ends in the next couple decades the existing waste still needs to be safely stored. To say the site doesn't exist because it isn't open yet is kinda silly.

So in 2020 when it is open and accepting spent reactor fuel what will be your excuse then?
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. You named one.
Edited on Tue May-25-10 11:49 AM by Fledermaus
You get a gold star on you homework even though its half ass work.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. .
Edited on Tue May-25-10 12:05 PM by Statistical
"name one permanent nuclear waste storage facility any where on this planet"

Did you forget what you asked?

Here are a couple more:
VLJ - Olkiluoto, Finland
Loviisa, Finland
SFR - Forsmark, Sweden
Waste Isolation Pilot Plant - Nevada, USA
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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Olkiluto storage doesn't exist yet it the same site as Onkalo
Edited on Tue May-25-10 01:15 PM by Fledermaus
Its not built yet.

Loviisa, Finland is a nuclear power plant not per manet storage.

SFR - Forsmark, Sweden is proposed permanent waste site. Again it not built yet.

Waste Isolation Pilot Plant - Nevada, USA is the pilot plant you already noted.

BTW the original post title is Public perceptions of problems at nuclear reactors are being cut down to size

Well, apparently there is no long term solution for all of the nuclear waste yet. Fifty some years of nuclear power and no permanent solution.




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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. So much wrong in so few words.
Edited on Tue May-25-10 01:53 PM by Statistical
Olkiluto repository DOES EXIST and has been open for almost 30 years. The site has been used for intermediate level waste.
Onkalo spent waste facility is under construction at the same location but is a seperate facility.

Lovissa is a permanent deep geological repository for intermediate level waste. It is located next to a power plant but that doesn't make it any less permanent. Finland is simply smart to build their repositories where nuclear facilities already exists. Cuts down on the nimby factor. once Onkalo is accepting spent fuel Lovissa may no longer be used? That doesn't make it any less permanent though.

On SFR you are once again wrong. A repository for intermediate level waste has existed at SFR since 1988. The underground repository at Lovissa is actually a copy of SFR. The Fins and the Swedes worked together on developing solutions to nuclear waste. The site is being expanded to house high level waste.

Wow 0 for 3. Ouch. Don't try to join MLB with an average like that.

I doubt you really care for facts but on the off chance I am wrong here is some info on Olkiluto and Lovisaa repositories.
http://www.iaea.org/OurWork/ST/NE/NEFW/CEG/documents/ws062006_9E.pdf

Just in case your forgot you exact words are:
"name one permanent nuclear waste storage facility any where on this planet"

VLJ - Olkiluoto, Finland In operation since 1992.
Loviisa, Finland - In operation since 1998.
SFR - Forsmark, Sweden - In operation since 1988.
Waste Isolation Pilot Plant - Nevada, USA - In operation since 1999.

Of course that doesn't include the two repositories under construction:
Schacht Konrad - will begin accepting intermediate level waste in 2013.
Onkalo - will begin accepting spent fuel in 2020.

Still Onkalo is the "end game" and will be a huge blow to anti-nukkers when it begins accepting spent fuel in 2020. A single repository capable of safely housing over a century of spent fuel for an entire nation (even projecting a 50% rise in generation). It will finally and completely crush the "where to store it" canard.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. What a freaking joker you are...
The game you play trying to find a semantic loophole is stupid and does nothing to address the point made - there are no permamant storage facilities for HIGH LEVEL nuclear waste - which is the problem. The term "nuclear waste" and "storage" are inextricably linked to HIGH LEVEL wastes and you know it.

Also, you wrote, "Still Onkalo is the "end game" and will be a huge blow to anti-nukkers when it begins accepting spent fuel in 2020. A single repository capable of safely housing over a century of spent fuel for an entire nation (even projecting a 50% rise in generation). It will finally and completely crush the "where to store it" canard." (Bold yours)

Really? How much does Onkalo store and why the hell should we accept the standards?
The answer to the first part is 12,000 metric tons. That compares to the current global total of 270,000 metric tons of existing wastes. If we expand "nuclear enough to take a modest bite out of the climate problem" we are going to need a lot more than that. How many Onkalo sized sites would we need? Well, if we take Holdren's assessment (below) and convert the 77,000 MTons of Yucca to the 12,000 maximum Onkalo might eventually reach, we'd need a new ONKALO every 4 months.

The nuclear option: size of the challenges
• If world electricity demand grows 2%/year until 2050 and nuclear share of electricity supply is to rise from 1/6 to 1/3...

–nuclear capacity would have to grow from 350 GWe in 2000 to 1700 GWe in 2050;

– this means 1,700 reactors of 1,000 MWe each.

• If these were light-water reactors on the once-through fuel cycle...
---–enrichment of their fuel will require ~250 million Separative Work Units (SWU);
---–diversion of 0.1% of this enrichment to production of HEU from natural uranium would make ~20 gun-type or ~80 implosion-type bombs.

• If half the reactors were recycling their plutonium...
---–the associated flow of separated, directly weapon - usable plutonium would be 170,000 kg per year;
---–diversion of 0.1% of this quantity would make ~30 implosion-type bombs.

• Spent-fuel production in the once-through case would be...
---–34,000 tonnes/yr, a Yucca Mountain every two years.

Conclusion: Expanding nuclear enough to take a modest bite out of the climate problem is conceivable, but doing so will depend on greatly increased seriousness in addressing the waste-management & proliferation challenges.



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Fledermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Permanent as in 20,000 years, but I think you already knew that.
Edited on Tue May-25-10 05:23 PM by Fledermaus
Long Term Storage for Hign Level Radioactive Waste

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While there are methods of significantly reducing the amount of high level radioactive waste, some (or all) high level radioactive waste must end its journey in long term storage. Because "long term" refers to a period of thousands of years, security of the radioactive waste must be assured over geologic time periods. The waste must not be allowed to escape to the outside environment by any foreseeable accident, malevolent action, or geological activity. This includes (but is certainly not limited to) accidental uncovering, removal by groups intending to use the radioactive material in a harmful manner, leeching of the waste into the water supply, and exposure from earthquake activity or other geological activity. In addition this security must be maintained over a period of time during which, not only will the designers of the storage area die, but the country, and the "modern world", will likely fall and be replaced many times over. It has only been 3000 years since the Egyptian Empire, yet some high level radioactive waste will take over 20,000 years to decay.
Causing further difficulty is the fact that some of this waste is plutonium, and other actinide elements, produced as byproducts (often purposefully) of uranium fission. These elements are not only highly radioactive, but highly poisonous as well. The toxicity of plutonium is among the highest of any element known.

Areas currently being evaluated for storage of nuclear waste are space, under the sea bed, and large stable geologic formations on land. Long term storage on land seems to be the favorite of most countries, including the United States.

http://www.history.rochester.edu/class/EZRA/LongTerm.htm


Public perceptions of problems at nuclear reactors are being cut down to size

This is the image that will be engraved into stone at the one permanent storage facility you listed. I hope it will last 20,000 years.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. One? We'd need a lot more than that...
A new Yucca Mountain every 2 years

The renewable option: Is it real?
SUNLIGHT: 100,000 TW reaches Earth’s surface (100,000 TWy/year = 3.15 million EJ/yr), 30% on land. Thus 1% of the land area receives 300 TWy/yr, so converting this to usable forms at 10% efficiency would yield 30 TWy/yr, about twice civilization’s rate of energy use in 2004.

WIND: Solar energy flowing into the wind is ~2,000 TW. Wind power estimated to be harvestable from windy sites covering 2% of Earth’s land surface is about twice world electricity generation in 2004.

BIOMASS: Solar energy is stored by photosynthesis on land at a rate of about 60 TW. Energy crops at twice the average terrestrial photosynthetic yield would give 12 TW from 10% of land area (equal to what’s now used for agriculture). Converted to liquid biofuels at 50% efficiency, this would be 6 TWy/yr, more than world oil use in 2004.

Renewable energy potential is immense. Questions are what it will cost & how much society wants to pay for environmental & security advantages.

The nuclear option: size of the challenges
• If world electricity demand grows 2%/year until 2050 and nuclear share of electricity supply is to rise from 1/6 to 1/3...

–nuclear capacity would have to grow from 350 GWe in 2000 to 1700 GWe in 2050;

– this means 1,700 reactors of 1,000 MWe each.

• If these were light-water reactors on the once-through fuel cycle...
---–enrichment of their fuel will require ~250 million Separative Work Units (SWU);
---–diversion of 0.1% of this enrichment to production of HEU from natural uranium would make ~20 gun-type or ~80 implosion-type bombs.

• If half the reactors were recycling their plutonium...
---–the associated flow of separated, directly weapon - usable plutonium would be 170,000 kg per year;
---–diversion of 0.1% of this quantity would make ~30 implosion-type bombs.

• Spent-fuel production in the once-through case would be...
---–34,000 tonnes/yr, a Yucca Mountain every two years.

Conclusion: Expanding nuclear enough to take a modest bite out of the climate problem is conceivable, but doing so will depend on greatly increased seriousness in addressing the waste-management & proliferation challenges.


Conclusion: Expanding nuclear enough to take a modest bite out of the climate problem is conceivable, but doing so will depend on greatly increased seriousness in addressing the waste-management & proliferation challenges.

Mitigation of Human-Caused Climate Change
John P. Holdren
(Pres. Obama's Scoence and Technology Advisor and a coauthor of MIT report "The Future of Nuclear Power")
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 08:47 PM
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