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Will China’s 50 GW by 2020 goal create a solar bubble? No.

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 06:48 AM
Original message
Will China’s 50 GW by 2020 goal create a solar bubble? No.
http://climateprogress.org/2011/05/12/will-china-create-a-solar-bubble-not-going-to-happen/

Will China’s 50 GW goal create a solar bubble? No.
In fact, the dramatic scaling of solar manufacturing capacity is just what's needed to keeps costs dropping
May 12, 2011

<snip>

Seemingly every week there’s another story about how China is upping the U.S. in the race to develop clean energy. This week’s news is in the solar sector, where Chinese officials say they plan to deploy 50 GW of cumulative capacity in the country by 2020. China only has about 1 GW of solar PV installed today (and no concentrated solar thermal power). But assuming it can meet those targets and continue scaling manufacturing (the country currently holds 57% of global solar cell manufacturing in the world), China is poised to become a vertically-integrated solar leader – not just an exporter of technology.

<snip>

“It’s actually nothing crazy,” he says. “I have a hard time seeing this creating a global undersupply – we’ll have 50 GW of module manufacturing capacity by the end of this year. The goal is doable.”

<snip>

In fact, Kann sees prices continuing to fall due to a structural oversupply of modules – exactly the opposite of what the Forbes piece suggests. In 2011, we could see a 10% decline in module pricing and another 15% decline in 2012. While that’s ultimately a good thing for consumers and installers, it puts the squeeze on manufacturers – but that also forces producers to continue innovating and dropping costs, thus benefiting the industry overall.

And for anyone who doubts that the cost-curve for solar is not coming down, take a look at this chart from a recent IPCC report outlining the possibility of a 77% global clean energy target by 2050:


Experience curve in logarithmic scale for the price of silicon PV modules…. Reductions in the cost or price of a technology per unit of capacity understate reductions in the levelized cost of energy of that technology when performance improvements occur

<snip>

— Stephen Lacey


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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good article and a great graph - thanks.
Edited on Fri May-13-11 11:08 AM by kristopher
"So are we really going to see a solar energy bubble? That’s extremely unlikely, says Shayle Kann, a leading solar analyst with GTM Research.

“It’s actually nothing crazy,” he says. “I have a hard time seeing this creating a global undersupply – we’ll have 50 GW of module manufacturing capacity by the end of this year. The goal is doable.”

That’s a pretty amazing feat. When one of the fastest growing, energy-intensive countries in the world decides to build 50 GW of solar in a relatively short period of time, and the solar industry can keep pace with it – you know the industry has begun to reach true scale."


http://climateprogress.org/2011/05/12/will-china-create-a-solar-bubble-not-going-to-happen/


My guesstimate for global capacity was about 45GWp by year end. Another 5 GW of panels produced each year is the same electric generation as building another large nuclear plant every year; except that 5GWp factory will make another nuke plant worth of panels every year for the next 15-20 years.


The OP relates to things like this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x292850
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. and bookmarked
yup
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. No. if anything just the opposite.
They're taking advantage of the fact that they've ramped up production and pushed prices down. The supply glut would otherwise cause problems for their manufacturers, so why not soak up the excess supply for your own use?

Would it make sense for China to develop tens of GWs of annual manufacturing capacity and sit there with low single-digit GWs of actual installed solar?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You can't figure out what you think, can you?
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Lol! No... You can't figure out what I think
Edited on Sat May-14-11 05:17 AM by FBaggins
If you were at some point to cease trying to make up my positions to suit your debating points, it would be easier.

For instance... correcting your frequent errors and/or misstatements about solar power does not make me anti-solar-power any more than accepting that a particular NFL team's QB sucks means that I'm not a fan of that team.

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. A week ago you were sure that factories weren't going to be built because of low demand.
Edited on Sat May-14-11 10:23 AM by kristopher
You went on and on and on about it in fact.

And you are only fond of renewable energy as a means of accomplishing your PRO nuclear fission industry agenda by greenwashing yourself. When the two conflict you show your true colors by using falsehoods in an attempt to make nuclear look good.

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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. So? That doesn't change the fact that many have ALREADY been built
And/or are already under construction.

Just because your BS claim was ridiculously overblown doesn't mean that they haven't made huge strides... Just nowhere near as huge as you claimed.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. You've proven yourself to be irrelevant.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. To you?
Why on earth should I care?

You've proven yourself to be... yet again... dead wrong.

I'll take that trade any day of the week. :rofl:
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. .
“It’s actually nothing crazy,” he says. “I have a hard time seeing this creating a global undersupply – we’ll have 50 GW of module manufacturing capacity by the end of this year. The goal is doable.”



Energy Information for Beginners to Address Myths About Wind and Solar
Previous post by K

In this discussion what is important to know about a watt?

If you have a 100 watt light, it uses 100 watts of electricity, right? But what is the "kilowatthour" or "kwh" on your electric bill?

This is a discussion in its own right. One of the best sites I've found for a quick introduction to basic electric terms every consumer needs can be found here. If you aren't cler on the difference between a watt and a watthour, then go here first:
How much electricity costs, and how they charge you

What the heck is a kilowatt hour?

Before we see how much electricity costs, we have to understand how it's measured. When you buy gas they charge you by the gallon. When you buy electricity they charge you by the kilowatt-hour (kWh). When you use 1000 watts for 1 hour, that's a kilowatt-hour...

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cost.html


When we talk about electricity at the national level, the units are larger:

1 GigaWatt (GW) = 1,000 MegaWatts (MW) = 1,000,000 KiloWatts (KW) = 1,000,000,000 Watts.

If a generator or solar array produces 1000 watts, that means at that instant there are "1000 watts" of electricity coming out of the unit (remember this "instant" term). If that rate continues for 1 hour, it has produced "1000 watt hours" or "1 kwh" of electricity, which is how the power companies sell their product. The unit on your residential bill will be the "kilowatt hour" (kwh). (see Micheal Bluejay’s site above if this isn’t clear)

A solar factory (or solar manufacturing facility) or wind turbine manufacturing plant can produce a maximum number of solar panels or wind turbines each year. Let's say one factory can produce enough turbines or panels to produce a total of 1 GW of "instant" power when they are all online, then that factory has a capacity of 1GW/year. Each GW of turbines or panels it produces is added to all previously installed generators to boost the "installed capacity" that is feeding into the grid.

A factory can produce at its capacity for as long as it makes economic sense for it to continue to operate, and each of the wind turbines or solar panels they make will, once installed, produce electricity for 20+ years for wind turbines and 30+ years for solar panels.

If a factory produces 1 GW for 20 years it will produce 20GW of installed capacity, if the factory produces for 40 years it will produce 40GW of installed capacity.

This is different than a conventional coal, nuclear or natural gas plant where it takes between 2 years (natgas) 12+ years (nuclear) to construct each facility for generating electricity. The amount of time devoted to constructing a thermal generating plant is rewarded with the ability to produce electricity any time, day or night no matter the weather. This characteristic of “dispatchability” is the core of how our electric system has developed over time, and is often referred to inappropriately as “baseload” power when critics of renewables point to the variability inherent to the most prominent renewable energy sources



Renewable energy myths promoted daily by the coal/nuclear industry

Wind Power Myths Debunked
november/december 2009 EEE Power and Energy Magazine Master Serie

http://www.ieee-pes.org/images/pdf/open-access-milligan.pdf

Questions addressed:
Can Grid Operators Deal with the Continually Changing Output of Wind Generation?
Does Wind Have Capacity Credit?
How Often Does the Wind Stop Blowing Everywhere at the Same Time?
Isn’t It Very Difficult to Predict Wind Power?
Isn’t It Very Expensive to Integrate Wind?
Doesn’t Wind Power Need New Transmission, and Won’t That Make Wind Expensive?
Doesn’t Wind Power Need Backup Generation? Isn’t More Fossil Fuel Burned with Wind Than Without, Due to Backup Requirements?
Does Wind Need Storage?
Isn’t All the Existing Flexibility Already Used Up?
Is Wind Power as Good as Coal or Nuclear Even Though the Capacity Factor of Wind Power Is So Much Less?
Isn’t There a Limit to How Much Wind Can Be Accommodated by the Grid?


Wind Power Myths Debunked
Common Questions and Misconceptions


Introduction:
THE RAPID GROWTH OF WIND POWER IN THE UNITED STATES AND worldwide has resulted in increasing media attention to — and public awareness of — wind generation technology. Several misunderstandings and myths have arisen due to the characteristics of wind generation, particularly because wind-energy generation only occurs when the wind is blowing. Wind power is therefore not dispatchable like conventional energy sources and delivers a variable level of power depending on the wind speed. Wind is primarily an energy resource and not a capacity resource. Its primary value is to offset fuel consumption and the resulting emissions, including carbon. Only a relatively small fraction of wind energy is typically delivered during peak and high-risk time periods; therefore, wind generators have limited capacity value. This leads to concerns about the impacts of wind power on maintaining reliability and the balance between load and generation.

This article presents answers to commonly asked questions concerning wind power.
It begins by addressing the variability of wind and then discusses whether wind has capacity credit. The article addresses whether wind can stop blowing everywhere at once, the uncertainty of predicting wind generation, whether it is expensive to integrate wind power, the need for new transmission, and whether wind generation requires backup generation or dedicated energy storage. Finally, we discuss whether there is sufficient system flexibility to incorporate wind generation, whether coal is better than wind because coal has greater capacity factors, and whether there is a limit to how much wind power can be incorporated into the grid...


Summary
The natural variability of wind power makes it different from other generating technologies, which can give rise to questions about how wind power can be integrated into the grid successfully. This article aims to answer several important questions that can be raised with regard to wind power. Although wind is a variable resource, grid operators have experience with managing variability that comes from handling the variability of load. As a result, in many instances the power system is equipped to handle variability. Wind power is not expensive to integrate, nor does it require dedicated backup generation or storage. Developments in tools such as wind forecasting also aid in integrating wind power. Integrating wind can be aided by enlarging balancing areas and moving to subhourly sched- uling, which enable grid operators to access a deeper stack of generating resources and take advantage of the smooth- ing of wind output due to geographic diversity. Continued improvements in new conventional-generation technolo- gies and the emergence of demand response, smart grids, and new technologies such as plug-in hybrids will also help with wind integration.


Download this open access article free (normally this journal's articles are priced at $26 each) : http://www.ieee-pes.org/images/pdf/open-access-milligan.pdf

This source of information is as credible as can be found on these frequently misrepresented issues related to wind power.

List of authors:
Michael Milligan is a principal analyst with NREL, in Golden, Colorado.
Kevin Porter is a senior analyst with Exeter Associates Inc., in Columbia, Maryland.
Edgar DeMeo is president of Renewable Energy Consulting Services, in Palo Alto, California.
Paul Denholm is a senior energy analyst with NREL, in Golden, Colorado. Hannele Holttinen is a senior research scientist with VTT Technical Research Centre of Finland.
Brendan Kirby is a consultant for NREL, in Golden, Colorado.
Nicholas Miller is a director at General Electric, in Schenectady, New York.
Andrew Mills is a senior research associate with Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, in Berkeley, California.
Mark O’Malley is a professor, School of Electrical, Electronic and Mechanical Engineering of University College Dublin, in Ireland.
Matthew Schuerger is a principal consultant with Energy Systems Consulting Services LLC, in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Lennart Soder is a professor of electric power systems at the Royal Institute of Technology, in Stockholm, Sweden.

Again, you can download the entire open access report here: http://www.ieee-pes.org/images/pdf/open-access-milligan.pdf





What about solar?

**In 2003, when the DOE solar pamphlet below was written, the US was the leader in PV - now we are 5th. Myth #2 identifies a target of 3.2 GWp of US manufacturing capacity as being needed to meet a US goal of 10% of electricity from solar by 2030. The /p/ in GWp refers to manufacturing production capacity.

However since the Republicans have successfully obstructed every policy that would have helped the industry grow here, global solar manufacturing capacity is now the number to look at. Global mfg capacity will reach about 45GWp this year with China's manufacturing capacity alone expected to hit 35GWp, even though they didn't start building solar panel factories until 2007.

To put that in perspective, if China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year those panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants. So in 12 years, the amount of now existing factory capacity (in China alone) will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear power plants. And the buildup of manufacturing is just getting started. Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that global solar manufacturing capacity will hit 1000GWp/year

(see the slideshow at this solar company website for a graph showing how increased manufacturing directly impacts the price of the electricity produced http://www.1366tech.com/

And before you say it can't be done, consider that in 2007, China wasn't involved in solar manufacturing and now, 4 years later they have 35GWp. After Fukushima, what do you think they are going to do?

Dept of Energy presents "Myths about Solar Electricity" Jan 2003

Myths about Solar Electricity

The area required for PV systems to supply the United States with its electricity is available now from parking lots, rooftops, and vacant land.

Solar electric systems are an important part of the whole-building approach to constructing a better home or commercial building. Although these systems have delivered clean, reliable power for more than a decade, several myths have evolved that confuse the real issues of using solar electricity effectively.

Myth #1
Solar electricity cannot contribute a significant fraction of the nation’s electricity needs.

Solar electric panels can meet electricity demand on any scale, from a single home to a large city. There is plenty of energy in the sunlight shining on all parts of our nation to generate the electricity we need. For example, with today’s commercial systems, the solar energy resource in a 100-by-100-mile area of Nevada could supply the United States with all of its electricity. If these systems were distributed to the 50 states, the land required from each state would be an area of about 17 by 17 miles. This area is available now from parking lots, rooftops, and vacant land. In fact, 90% of America’s current electricity needs could be supplied with solar electric systems built on the estimated 5 million acres of abandoned industrial sites in our nation’s cities.

Myth #2 ** (see prequel note above added by K)
Solar electricity can do everything—right now!

Solar electricity will eventually contribute a significant part of our electricity supply, but the industry required to produce these systems must grow more than tenfold over the next 10 years. In 2001, about 400 megawatts of solar electric modules were produced worldwide. According to an industry-planning document, in order to supply just 10% of U.S. generation capacity by 2030, the U.S. solar electricity industry must supply more than 3,200 megawatts per year (3.2GWp). Most experts agree that with continued research, solar electric systems will become more efficient, even more reliable, and less expensive.

Myth #3
Producing solar electric systems creates pollution and uses more energy than the system can produce over its lifetime.
Producing solar electric systems uses energy and produces some unwanted byproducts. However, most solar electric systems pay back the energy used to produce them in about one year. Because the systems generally last 30 years, during the 30 years of a system's life, it is producing free and clean electricity for 29 of those years.

Production of solar electric systems is regulated by rigorous safety and pollution control standards. In addition, during the lifetime of a solar electric system, pollution that would have been emitted by conventional generation of electricity is avoided. For each kilowatt of solar electric generating capacity, the pollution avoided by not using fossil fuels to produce electricity amounts to 9 kilograms of sulfuric oxide, 16 kilograms of nitrous oxide, and between 600 and 2,300 kilograms of carbon dioxide per year. The annual amount of carbon dioxide offset by a 2.5-kW rooftop residential solar electric system is equal to that emitted by a typical family car during that same year.

Myth #4
Solar electric systems make sense in only a few applications.

Solar electric systems make sense nearly anywhere electricity is needed. Homes and businesses that are already using electricity from the utility, such as homes, businesses, and electric-vehicle charging stations, represent nearly 60% of the market for solar electric systems. The number of these grid-connected applications is growing because they make sense economically, environmentally, and aesthetically. Solar electric systems make economic sense because they use free fuel from the sun and require little upkeep because they have no moving parts. Every bit of electricity produced is used in the home or sold back to the electric utility for use by other customers. Solar electric systems also make sense for the environment and can blend seamlessly into the design of a building.


Myth #5
Solar electric systems are unreliable and produce substandard electricity.

Solar electric systems are some of the most reliable products available today. They are silent, have no moving parts, and have been tested to rigorous standards by public and private organizations. Many solar electric products have been tested and listed by Underwriters Laboratories, just as electrical appliances are. Warranties of 20-25 years are standard for most modules.

Solar electric systems connected to the utility grid generate the same kind of power as that from the power line. Today’s systems must meet the requirements of the National Electrical Code, the local utility, and local building codes. Once these systems are installed according to these requirements, the owner of a solar-electric-powered home has electricity of the same quality as any other utility customer.


Myth #6
It is difficult to make solar electric systems aesthetically pleasing and functional for homes and businesses.

The buildings shown here include solar electric systems serving dual functions: building structure and generation of electricity. These photos represent only a small sample of the beautiful, functional, and energy-efficient buildings being designed with solar electric components. (download for photos- link below)

In the future, people will reflect on our current solar electric technology much as we reflect on the technology of the Model T Ford: with admiration for the pioneering visionaries of the day and perhaps amusement at the technology that seems so primitive compared to what we now enjoy. Researchers believe that in the future, new physics and technologies will be developed that will greatly improve solar energy technology. As for the present day, clean, reliable solar electricity is increasingly popular with home and business owners, which helps to dispel the myths surrounding this technology.

Produced for the U.S. Department of Energy by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, a DOE national laboratory
DOE/GO-102003-1671 January 2003

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/pdfs/32529.pdf


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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. If any of that was something other than spam... just let me know.
Otherwise... just assume that the reply is the same as the last dozen times you've spamed the threads.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. .
However since the Republicans have successfully obstructed every policy that would have helped the industry grow here, global solar manufacturing capacity is now the number to look at. Global mfg capacity will reach about 45GWp this year with China's manufacturing capacity alone expected to hit 35GWp, even though they didn't start building solar panel factories until 2007.

To put that in perspective, if China's factories manufacture 35GWp of solar panels each year those panels will produce the equivalent electricity of about 7 or 8 large nuclear power plants. So in 12 years, the amount of now existing factory capacity (in China alone) will manufacture enough panels to equal the output of between 84 - 96 nuclear power plants. And the buildup of manufacturing is just getting started. Within ten years it is hoped/expected/thought that global solar manufacturing capacity will hit 1000GWp/year
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it any less false
nor any less "spam".

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. .
Nuclear Meltdown at Fukushima Plant
One of the reactors at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi power plant did suffer a nuclear meltdown, Japanese officials admitted for the first time today, describing a pool of molten fuel at the bottom of the reactor's containment vessel.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/05/12-5
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Strange that you would post with only a "point"...
...when you lack any actual point to the post.

Japanese officials admitted for the first time today

Stunning. They've been clear that there was a meltdown since almost immediately after it happened... even trying to estimate the degree to which each core was damaged... but some news organization has to pretend that it's "for the first time today"?

I suppose anything to sell papers.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. .
nuclear power will never supply the world's energy needs

(PhysOrg.com) -- The 440 commercial nuclear reactors in use worldwide are currently helping to minimize our consumption of fossil fuels, but how much bigger can nuclear power get? In an analysis to be published in a future issue of the Proceedings of the IEEE, Derek Abbott, Professor of Electrical and Electronic Engineering at the University of Adelaide in Australia, has concluded that nuclear power cannot be globally scaled to supply the world’s energy needs for numerous reasons. The results suggest that we’re likely better off investing in other energy solutions that are truly scalable....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55418743/Nuclear-Power-and-World-Energy-by-Derek-Abbott-Professor
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Nuclear can't provide ALL of the world's power need? What a shock!
Has anyone ever pretended that it could or should?

Three times the current level seems quite reasonable. I'm happy to settle for that if you are.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. .
"Of course, not many nuclear advocates are calling for a complete nuclear utopia, in which nuclear power supplies the entire world’s energy needs. But many nuclear advocates suggest that we should produce 1 TW of power from nuclear energy, which may be feasible, at least in the short term. However, if one divides Abbott’s figures by 15, one still finds that 1 TW is barely feasible. Therefore, Abbott argues that, if this technology cannot be fundamentally scaled further than 1 TW, perhaps the same investment would be better spent on a fully scalable technology."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55418743/Nuclear-Power-and-World-Energy-by-Derek-Abbott-Professor
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. Investing 1.5 trillion
http://www.truth-out.org/new-sputnik/1305295722

The real promise, however, is that if the Chinese government really does throwa trillion and a half dollarsat solar and other renewables over the next decade and a half, the cost of producing energy in that way is likely to plummet. The Middle Kingdom alreadyproduces halfof the world's solar panels. The bad news for the United States is that China could dominate the rapidly growing and crucial world market for green technology in coming decades, leaving literally in the dust a Rust Belt America wedded to dirty coal, oil and water-slurping shale extraction.

China's production of green technology has been growing 77 percent a year, and solar panels, wind turbines and other green manufacturesaccount for 1.4 percentof its gross domestic product. Only tiny Denmark outdoes China on this score, deriving 3.1 percent of its GDP from renewable energy technology. But of course in absolute terms China’s production in this sector, at $64 billion annually, leads the world. The US derives only 0.3 percent of its GDP from green tech and substantially trails China in absolute terms. Last year Beijing installed three times as much new wind turbine capacity as the United States.It added 18.9 gigawattsof new wind power-generating capacity in 2010, or about half of all the new wind installations in the world.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Good article, thanks.
Odd isn't it, that a Chinese economy with strong centralized control of a runaway market system is now the best hope for humans to respond to climate change in time...

The Chinese are at just the right place at just the right time with just the right set of needs. We are going through the same thing in energy with China as we did with automobiles and Japan where an obsolete, mature, existing infrastructure forms a power base that strangles the rest of the country.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Did you forget about all those reactors they're building?
Edited on Sat May-14-11 03:20 PM by FBaggins
Oops.

Yes. China's plan represents the model that is the best hope for humans to respond to climate change in time.

Massive investment in clean energy production - with nuclear right up in the lead. 70-80 GW by 2020.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. No, I didn't forget.
What they are doing with renewables is going to make nuclear and coal completely obsolete, and that is what is important.

It couldn't happen here, but it is already happening there, Germany has committed and Japan is probably going to commit.

!
V
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. They're certainly trying to make coal obsolete.
Edited on Sat May-14-11 03:41 PM by FBaggins
They obviously disagree with you re: nuclear power. It's clearly part of their long-term plan.

So what you really means was that you would LIKE to forget about those reactors.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. It doesn't matter what they are trying to do, it is the effect of what they are doing.
And you might write a good book if you interviewed the person who made the decisions about their nuclear program. You can find him in jail until he dies. Note the dates of the two events below.

China nuclear chief latest official hit in graft probe
10-AUG-2009 Intellasia

Authorities are probing the possibility that Kang took bribes from French nuclear power giant Areva to win a contract for a project in China's southern Guangdong province, said the report, which was posted on numerous government websites.

China's top nuclear power official is being investigated for allegedly squandering public funds and accepting bribes valued at up to 1.8 billion yuan (260 million dollars), state press said Friday. (AFP/File/Frederic J. Brown)

Kang also allegedly traded on the stock market large amounts of public funds earmarked for the construction of three nuclear power plants, suffering huge losses when the market crashed last year, the report said.

"Recently, the state has greatly expanded the scope of developing nuclear power, a lot of major projects are being started that involve huge investment," the paper said, citing unnamed sources close to the case.

"This is where corruption ...
http://www.intellasia.net/news/articles/regional/111271488.shtml



Green Giant: Beijing’s crash program for clean energy.
December 28, 2009
China introduces yet another new law to boost renewable energy.

...A new Chinese law requires power grid operators to buy all the electricity produced by renewable energy generators, in a move that will increase the proportion of energy that comes from renewable sources in coal-dependent China.
The amendment to the 2006 renewable energy law was adopted on Saturday by the standing committee of the National People’s Congress, China’s legislature, the Xinhua news agency said.
The amendment also gives authority to the State Council energy department, together with the State Council finance department and the state power authority, to “determine the proportion of renewable energy power generation to the overall generating capacity for a certain period.”...

http://climateprogress.org/2009/12/28/green-giant-beijing%E2%80%99s-crash-program-for-clean-energy/
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. So only one guy was calling all the shots?
And he's doing it from jail?

Months after this guy was "hit in graft probe", China doubled their plans for nuclear power.

Note that this was also after the last time you tried to pretend that China was going to finish out just the reactors that were already under construction but was thenceforth shifting entirely to wind/wave/solar.

The "effect of what they are doing" is rapidly expanding ALL forms of clean generation capacity - with nuclear clearly in the lead.

Just as I would do if I were in their shoes. So

YES

, I agree that their plan represents "the best hope for humans to respond to climate change in time"

The first time you were right in a long time... and now you want to back down from it? :rofl:
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. Increasing solar panel production is welcome no matter where it comes from
I wish the USA were putting that much focus on renewable energy but I can't complain about higher production because that will bring prices down worldwide. Everyone will eventually benefit, but it'd be nice if more of those jobs came to our shores...
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