GUNS IN THE NEWS--October 31, 2003

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following guidelines:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted to the 'Net within the past 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. (On Mondays, stories that were originally posted to the 'Net over the weekend - Friday night through Sunday - are considered current. This allows for the fact than amny people are off-line over the weekend, allowing the Monday thread to be a weekend summary.)
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials, as long as they're current. Please do not post links from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
4 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
5 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.

More from the trial of the RKBA poster boy...

"VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. -- When Linda Franklin struggled to load a shelf into the back of her car outside a Home Depot, she moved out of the way so her husband could give it a try.
Then, William Franklin heard what he thought was wood smacking concrete, and "I felt something hitting me on the side of the face," he testified Thursday in the trial of sniper suspect John Allen Muhammad.
"I didn't know it at the time," Franklin said. "Afterward, I found out it was her blood."
Jurors also heard testimony from the survivor of another attack, on Oct. 19, 2002. A bullet pierced Jeffrey Hopper's abdomen as he and his wife walked hand-in-hand out of a Ponderosa restaurant in Ashland, Va., about 15 miles north of Richmond. They had stopped there for dinner after visiting family in Pennsylvania and were driving home to Melbourne, Fla. "

http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/virginia/dp-va--snipershootingstr1030oct30,0,3230014.story?coll=dp-headlines-virginia

Remember, the corrupt gun industry and the GOP are tryinng to ram a bill through Congress that would keep the victims of the sniper attacks from suing the gun store that let this madman stroll out of the store with a weapon he should not have had. The same gun store also armed Buford Furrow, who shot up the Los Angeles Jewish Community Center day care center and killed a postman in Los Angeles in 1999.

What would the lawsuit tell America about the way weapons are peddled in America? THAT's what the gun industry doesn't want anyone to know.

Remember, the corrupt gun industry and the GOP and Tom Daschle (D)and Max Baucus (D)and which the house has already passed, by a vote of 285-to-140, it's version of the bill H. R. 1036 are tryinng to ram a bill through Congress that would keep the victims of the sniper attacks from suing the gun store that let this madman stroll out of the store with a weapon he should not have had. Never mind the fact that they STOLE the rifle.

The same gun store also armed Buford Furrow Nevermind that it's rifle which had not a god damn thing to do with his crime spree and which it was legal for him to have at the time he bought it.

"Michael A. Michalski walked into Markl Supply Co. on Perrysville Avenue on Wednesday, apparently calm and coherent.
He laid out several hundred dollars for a .357-caliber Glock semiautomatic handgun, passed an instant background check through the Pennsylvania State Police, and walked out with his gun.
According to Allegheny County police, Michalski, 21, went into the Ferderbars' home at 202 Chipper Drive in Shaler just before 3 p.m. He argued with Gretchen Ferderbar and moments later, pulled out the Glock handgun, firing several times. His ex-girlfriend was hit once in the head and once in the leg. Phillips died from shots to the head, neck and chest.
"She's a bitch. She caused me to lose my job," he told Byers."

http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_north/20031031shalernorth1p1.asp

"Selby was serving a narcotics warrant back in December when he was gunned down.
Selby's mother Deloris says the pain of losing her son will never go away.
Deloris Selby, George Selby's mother said, "It's with you every day, and I'm speaking as a mother of course, but it never goes away. And yet, even though you see the uniform and it bothers you, you still feel a certain pride there."
Selby was an 8-year veteran of the Shelby County Sheriff's department. "

http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=1504953&nav=4XzRIpkn

Thanks to the corrupt gun industry and the GOP, criminals can stroll into any gun show in Tennnessee and buy weapons without a background check.

"Dallas police say that a three-year-old girl was shot once in the forehead while being held in her father's arms as he and her grandfather exchanged gunfire during a family dispute. She was in critical condition at Children's Medical Center after the shooting Wednesday morning at a northeast Dallas home. Police say the girl's father was taken to Baylor University Medical Center with three gunshot wounds, and the grandfather was being treated at Parkland Memorial Hospital for a single gunshot wound."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=382&ncid=382&e=6&u=/keye/20031030/lo_keye/texasgirlshotinfathersarms

Another family made safer by guns...

Intruders shot, killed
By ROSE DeWOLF & SIMONE WEICHSELBAUM
dewolfr@phillynews.com

TWO BURGLARS picked the wrong victims and were shot to death early yesterday after forcing their way into two separate buildings in Overbrook and Southwest Philadelphia, police said.

Police said the unrelated shootings occurred in a home in Overbrook and a market in Southwest Philadelphia.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/7137685.htm

Arrest after man shot dead in pub Oct 30 2003


A man was arrested on suspicion of murder after another man was shot dead at point blank range in a pub, police said.

The victim, a man in his mid 40s, was shot dead on Wednesday night in the pub in Wellington, near Taunton, Somerset.

Police were alerted at 10.30pm by a 999 call reporting that a man had walked into a pub in South Street, produced a gun and shot another man at point blank range.

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200nationalnews/content_objectid=13572019_method=full_siteid=50002_headline=-Arrest-after-man-shot-dead-in-pub-name_page.html

"Winston-Salem police arrested 24-year-old Jeremy Dushane Murrell over the weekend and charged him with kidnapping and armed robbery in the case of Matt Harding. They have now charged him with murder.
Harding, 19, of Winston-Salem, had been missing for a week when his body was discovered in the trunk of his car in Richmond, Va., dead from a gunshot wound to the head late August. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=379&ncid=379&e=8&u=/ibsys/20031030/lo_wxii/1848103

HAMMOND, Ind. -- A federal judge refused Thursday to release white supremacist Matt Hale on bond and delayed until April his trial on charges of urging followers to kill another federal judge.
They also say they intercepted a telephone call between the jailed white supremacist and his father. On the tape, the elder Hale is heard to ask how many marshals escort his son to court and how many guns they had.
In July 1999, Benjamin Smith, a member of Hale's World Church of the Creator, targeted minorities in Illinois and Indiana, killing two and injuring nine.
Smith's victims included Indiana University student Won-Joon Yoon, 26. The South Korean native was gunned down in front of a Bloomington church on the morning of July 4, 1999."
http://www.indystar.com/articles/0/088356-9660-093.html

Hale's World Church of the Creator often hands out its hate literature at gun shows.

"A 19-year-old Northeastside man is being held on a preliminary charge of murder in the fatal shooting last month of a 20-year-old man.
Daniel McDowell, 4200 block of East 43rd Street, was arrested Wednesday in the death of Antonio Rhodes, 2000 block of North College Avenue.
Rhodes was found wounded Sept. 8 in the 600 block of East 17th Street. He had been shot in the head. He was taken to Wishard Memorial Hospital but died several hours later.
McDowell is scheduled to stand trial next month on forgery and receiving stolen property charges stemming from an earlier arrest this year."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/088102-9928-093.html

It's been reported all morning on local TV. Two schools in the area are closed for the day and US 85/87 (the main road through Fountain) is closed.

I'll post a link as soon as I find one.

"WASHINGTON - John Kerry accused presidential rival Howard Dean Friday of taking positions on gun safety that put the interests of the National Rifle Association ahead of the safety of children and families.
Dean assures voters on the campaign trail this year that he supports the federal assaults weapons ban enacted under President Bill Clinton in 1994. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031031/ap_on_el_pr/dean_kerry_guns_1

Gee, sounds like Dean is FOR gun control.

While many Democratic primary voters support federal restrictions on gun ownership, there is less support for those restrictions among swing voters and Democrats in conservative states. Democratic nominee Al Gore (news - web sites) lost several states in 2000 where gun control is not popular.

Maybe Gore did lose because of gun control.

Centrist Democrats have warned that the party's candidates need to adopt a stance that recognizes the rights of gun owners, while pushing for gun safety laws. They warn that candidates who are aggressive in challenging gun owners without also defending their right to own a gun will be at a substantial disadvantage in rural and conservative states.

Wow, what a novel idea!

It will sunset before the election, he won't be able to do anything about it.
This is from your article-
"While many Democratic primary voters support federal restrictions on gun ownership, there is less support for those restrictions among swing voters and Democrats in conservative states. Democratic nominee Al Gore (news - web sites) lost several states in 2000 where gun control is not popular."

You deny this fact- why did you link us?

And since he doesn't hold a federal office he has exactly zero input as to whether or not it gets renewed or replaced with a different ban.

Any politician who supports the AW ban is pandering to the massive ignorance about the subject among voters. Most people who support it do so in response to propaganda rather than a real understanding of the issues.

I also support it's sunset in 2004
Saying that someone supports the current AWB doesn't really say a whole lot about thier position on the rights of the people to own firearms.

"Police are searching for whoever shot two men driving through a neighborhood at 22nd Street and Holmes late Thursday night.
One man died. Investigators identified him as Larry C. Riley, 18, of Independence. The second man in the car with Riley was shot in the arm. He jumped from the car after the shooting and ran to a hospital for help. "


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031031/lo_kmbc/1856063

"Detroit police are investigating a shooting at a car wash Friday morning.
A man was approached by someone while washing his car at Grand River and Prevost, and an altercation ensued, according to police. The man got out of his car and tried to flee, but was shot in the back at least four times, Local 4 reported. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031031/lo_wdiv/1856171

On the story first posted on 27 October.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/search/sfl-ppdefense31oct31,0,161344.story

Now the killings, both of which occurred in suburban Boca Raton, are raising questions about when use of deadly force is appropriate -- and legal.

In the first case, a 16-year-old boy <Drewes> playing a prank was shot to death by his neighbor <Levin> early Saturday morning.

That's the case that was posted here, and that I posted further details about on 28 October. This is the other one:

Four days later, a 46-year-old man shot and killed a business associate at a deli, telling police he did so because he thought his life was threatened. Three other men also in the deli at the time of the shooting fled. Police have said evidence at the scene appears to support Ralph Liotta's statement of self-defense.

Investigations in both cases continue, and neither Levin nor Liotta has been charged.

You have to register (free: name, password, no email address) to read this one:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/search/sfl-pdrewes29oct29,1,6202139.story
"Family lawyers plan announcement Friday on fatal shooting of West Boca teen"

West Palm Beach attorney Robert Montgomery, who is representing the teen's parents, Gregory and Luciana Drewes, said he had confirmed accounts that Drewes was shot while fleeing. Montgomery did not provide other details about the information he has concerning Drewes. He said Fort Lauderdale attorney Bo Hitchcock was representing Levin <the shooter>.

And this tidbit:

... In 1987, Hitchcock successfully defended John Howard, a Lake Worth resident who chased and fatally shot David Allan Taylor after Taylor reportedly broke into Howard's apartment and emerged with a television set. The case gained notoriety because Howard watched Taylor from outside his home before chasing him down the street and shooting him in the head.

Yup, that there's about the clearest case of SELF-DEFENCE I've ever seen. And hmm ... that guy was outside his home, so he must've been carrying that firearm with him ... wonder whether he had one of those Florida CCW things? What I wonder is whether that murder would show up as a murder in the statistics?

Anyhow. Since we know this about the Boca Raton shooting:

Drewes' killing has stirred anxiety and anger among neighbors in the Woodbury subdivision of Boca Del Mar, where the teen and Levin lived several homes apart, because of the teenage antics family and friends say provoked the shooting.

... well, who knows; perhaps Levin mistook the 16-yr-old doorbell ringer for Saddam Hussein.

.

No one said that proper training was something to ignore. My wish list would be to have all CCW people complete the same training as is required for licensed armed security guards.

And there are two sides to every story:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/search/sfl-ppdefense31oct31,0,161344.story

Jay Levin, 40, told police he was awakened by knocking and saw Mark Drewes' 6-foot-2, 200-pound frame in his window. Levin said he thought he saw something in Drewes' hand, opened his door and fired. He then called 911 and told dispatchers he had just shot a burglar. The teen with Drewes that night said he and his friend began running away when they saw the gun. Drewes, the friend said, was shot in the back.

This event is still working its way through the system. The jury's still out.

Deciding whether the deadly force was justifiable often falls to a jury, Gershman said.

"You must judge him by the circumstance he was surrounded by at the time of the shooting," he said. Had threats been made before? What's the size and capacity of the person posing the threat? Are there other factors that would lead the person to feel threatened?

*snip*

In the deli shooting, John Gurino, the victim, is thought to have had ties to the Mafia and the late New York crime boss John Gotti.

Exactly what "training" would equip people not to shoot other people in the back? Sunday school??

"This event is still working its way through the system. The jury's still out."

I kinda figure that once there's confirmation that the kid was shot in the back, the jury should have a pretty easy time of it. Of course, maybe not in Florida.

"In the deli shooting, John Gurino, the victim, is thought to have had ties to the Mafia and the late New York crime boss John Gotti."

Hey, and I can think of someone who "is thought to have" ties to some pretty unsavoury characters himself. I guess that would make shooting you know who an act of self-defence?

Proving that the victim was not a nice person (or was a really big person ...) really doesn't amount to establishing self-defence justification, y'know.

.

the guy who shot the teen had a Florida permit.....which was supposed to require training. Of course, all that "training" really amounted to was paying a fee and hanging around a shooting gallery.

Not necessarily, depends on various other factors.

VAN NUYS, Calif. (Court TV) — Drama surrounded the hearing of actor Robert Blake both in and out of the courtroom Friday. Shortly after the judge dismissed conspiracy charges against the former 'Baretta' star, a lawyer was shot outside the courthouse in an apparently unrelated incident.

I'am surprised this doesnt happen more often, esp the time I got sued for shooting someone after they just shot and killed someone and shot at my partner.

http://courttv.com/trials/blake/103103_ap.html

http://canada.com/national/story.asp?id=54E35DB5-8DDA-4DD2-93CF-89E119926DDE

TORONTO -- A brutal early morning home invasion has left even seasoned police officers disgusted.

The terror began for two Humber College students -- a man and a woman -- just before 1 a.m. Friday morning when four masked men, armed with a handgun, a machete and a knife, entered their Lymont Road home through an open door, Toronto Police Supt. Ron Taverner said.

The two residents were beaten and tied up with duct tape. The woman was then dragged into a bathroom where she was raped. During the robbery, a second woman returned home. She too was beaten, tied up with duct tape and sexually assaulted, Taverner said.

The four men then ransacked the house -- which is four separate apartments. The men took an undisclosed amount of valuables from the house and fled after about an hour and half.

*snip/end*

God forbid someone up north even have the *option* of effectively defending themselves against the *chance* this could happen to them. Oops, that CAN mandatory DC-style unloaded-and-locked-up law gets in the way of that one. Maybe they should have locked the door, then.

So two women were raped and the house was ransacked? Big deal. At least they didn't kill the criminals, they are mere victims of society. It is far better to submit to the whims of the criminal element than to defend yourself. Do you expect mere citizens to be able to handle a firearm? Firearms are best left to the police force who always arrive at the scene of the crime- last.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

...is not to leave your door open at 1 am. Lock and dead-bolt it.

2 seconds, what is the best defense?

And I've lived in some rough neighborhoods. And never found the need for a gun.

(BTW, that HCI Parody site was one of the sorriest excuses for "humor" I've ever seen. What a waste of bandwidth.)

Perhaps a window would allow easy entry. If someone wants to gain entry, they will.

No one has gotten through my door uninvited yet without being shot!

(of course nobody has tried yet, thank god!)

"And never found the need for a gun."
Well thats swell! I feel I am safer having the firearms in my home. I promise not to mess with your right not to own guns.

At least I know that no one will ever be killed by a gun that I own. Can YOU make that statement with 100% certainty???

If anyone is killed by my firearm, I will have pulled the trigger. I have firearms in the home for self defense, you want me to say nobody will ever be killed by my firearms? It will be up to the criminal element to decide if anyone is ever killed.

I am comfortable with my decision, I am uncomfortable with people who want to remove my right to own firearms. I find it astounding that someone would have the nerve to think they know what I need.