Since my robbery, everyone's telling me to buy a gun, should I?

As many of you already know, I was robbed at gunpoint in the parking lot of my workplace Thursday night (it was 7:30, still broad daylight) after working overtime. I was the only one in the parking lot at the time. I've already gone into the gory details, including my problems with my indifferent and incompetent bank, in previous threads, so I won't do that here.

I'm a Million Mom March member, and most of you already know my stance on the gun issue, I was never for banning or taking away guns but for sensible safety measures and responsiblity and accountability from the gun manufacturers, and some limits on gun ownership.

But there's nothing like feeling the cold press of a gun barrel being jammed in your ribs, and then your neck, to change your perspective on things. I had not been the victim of a crime like that before, and never before in my life have I experienced such an overwhelming feeling of helplessness, powerlessness, and total, utter, pure terror. The creep had the gun, which meant he had total power over my life at that point, and I had nothing.

Now a lot of my family and friends are urging me to buy a gun and undergo training on how to use it and safely own it. They say that the criminal had a gun, as most do, so why shouldn't I have one to protect myself with also? I never thought I'd agree with that point of view, but I'm a lot more sympathetic to it now than I've ever been before, and I understand it a lot better.

But others are saying that that's a foolish idea, that, even if I'd had the gun when I was being mugged, it probably wouldn't have made any difference and I likely would have made things a lot worse, which very well could be true. And that's the way I normally would feel. The problem is, the people saying it have never been through what I went through, and I'm a lot less sure of that now.

So my question is, which argument has more merit? What does everyone think I should do?

to learn how to use a firearm, then by all means get a permit and buy a handgun.

Pehaps you could buy a air taser or stun gun and some mace they would keep you very safe and you would not have to take a human life.

is extremely dubious.

if you couldn't use a gun on someone, DONT GET ONE!

Furthermore, for your friends that said if you had a gun on you at the time you would have made things worse, I wonder how. The criminal already was armed, so is it that much worse if he had 2? Any criminal that would shoot you has such a sinister mind that they would do it regardless if you defended yourself or not.

First off, you may not be able to do much in OH (you are in OH, right?), because OH is NOT right to carry...yet. So if you were to purchase a gun, you couldn't carry it.

My advice is to take the training courses. You will be able to handle a gun, learn how to operate them, and learn how to shoot them. Then with that knowledge, you should consider owning a gun.

Let us know how it turns out.

carry bill after many years of trying. I don't know if it will go through this year or not, but there seems to be more support now than in the past.

IF I do make the decision to go ahead, and that's by no means decided yet, I will definitely get training first. And, to be honest, I'm not really sure if I could ever shoot anyone.

and your MMM organization works against people like you getting a concealed carry permit.

I think you could gauge your ability to use a gun, and how comfortable you are using one after taking a training course. So I would do that first, then reconsider the issue.

But again, if you couldn't use a gun to defend yourself or a loved one, then I don't think you should get one.

a MMM member or not!

In other words, they are pretty much useless.
The crime rate stays the same.

. . . is illegal I believe. If it is not, it should be to prevent road rage from getting out of hand. I think there are a lot of statistics to show that you are more likely to shoot a family member by accident than a burglar.

I wouldn't do it.

n/t

it's normally OK to carry a loaded gun in a car. Nobody's sure about Ohio, because we don't know yet if it will pass, and what the final form will be if it does.

you're much more likely to stop a crime without even shooting the attacker, but that is "omitted" from the studies.

So is the fact that most acquaitance shootings are with a criminal background.

only if you are willing to get trained, get everyone in your house trained, and stay in training.

Remember this too. If you own a gun, and you are forced to pull it on someone, 100 things can happen and 99 of those are bad. So if you pull it you shoot the person and at least ahve the option of choosing teh bad thign that will happen. The only good thing that can happen is you put it away unfired. My handgun trainer, and off duty cop, taught me that.

although membership doesn't have rewards.
It's taught us that the only person you can count on for protection is yourself.
Education is the key to your decision.
If you have never been around firearms I suggest a local shooting range and certified instructor as your first step.
Hell, even if you have been around firearms I suggest a local shooting range and certified instructor as your first step.

If you decide to obtain a firearm, before, or at the same time purchase a quick access theft/child proof safe to store it in.

get training from a certified instructor if I do, in fact, make the decision to go ahead with getting one which, again, is by no means at all decided.

Then don't buy a damn expensive thing that's only good for killing. If you don't want to kill someone, then what good would buying a gun do? It likely end-up on the street like so many other guns.

He could very easily have done so without blinking an eye; in those moments, which seemed like a century to me, he had total power over my life and whether I would live or die or be badly injured. It is impossible to describe that feeling if you haven't experienced it yourself. Why shouldn't I have also had protection for myself? I'm not saying you're wrong, but unless you've been there, I doubt that you could truly understand. And believe me, less than a week ago, I was fully in your camp.

"in those moments, which seemed like a century to me, he had total power over my life and whether I would live or die or be badly injured."

It wasn't just that he had total power, it was that you completely lacked any ability to change what was happening. Having a gun doesn't make you Superman, but does provide you with better options than simply waiting for him to pull the trigger.

At the very least, you should take a course, learn about guns, and what they can and cannot do. Then you need to ask yourself if you could realistically shoot somebody to save your own life. If you don't think you could do it in a situation like you went through, don't buy a gun.


BTW, the fact that you got robbed sucks...Sorry to hear that.

used for one thing, and ONLY one thing

To kill

Do you think you could do that to another living, breathing human being?

Better judged by 12 then carried by 6. In my line of work I have been carrying a pistol in the open and concealed since 1974 and thank god though I have had to point my pistols at people a few time I never had to pull the trigger. But I know in my mind if I had to pull the trigger, I won't hesitate. The best advice I have for her is get trained and don't hesitate, if she can't do either then dont carry. When it comes to saving your life I believe in shooting to live, not to kill.

or another family member, I don't think I'd have much of a problem with using the gun. That psychopath could very easily have killed me without blinking an eye. And I was totally in his power.

discussing people's personal experiences in the context of debate of a controversial issue. (This occurs, for instance, in discussion of abortion policy.) Comments about the issue can seem disrespectful of the person whose experience is under examination.

Nonetheless, when it is that person who puts the experience in issue, I sometimes blunder on, attempting not to be exploitive in the process. (Maybe just read my posts lower down before reading this one. Never mind the replies to the comments from the cheap seats.)

"That psychopath could very easily have killed me
without blinking an eye."

He didn't. In fact, the chances of being killed by a stranger, then or in future, are really very low.

That's exactly what I thought about as I lay in the front seat of a car with no inner door-handles, with someone's hands around my throat, as I began to lose consciousness. Of course, I was a law student employed doing criminological research at the time ...

It went like this.

I am apparently going to be sexually assaulted. Now, we all know how many sexual assaults occur every year -- from police statistics, which we also know to be grossly under-representative of how many sexual assaults actually occur. So, doing the math, that makes ... lots and lots and lots.

On the other hand, every time there is a murder, there is a body, so we can be pretty sure that the number of bodies is an accurate reflection of the number of murders. Not very many in absolute numbers, and very few relative to the number of sexual assaults.

So the odds are very good that I'm not going to be murdered. And I know that the fear of death is the mechanism used by sexual predators, and by society in general, to restrict women's lives. I've heard it expressed at women's-safety meetings, very explicitly -- if I walk down the street, I'm afraid that someone will follow me; if someone follows me, I'm afraid he'll talk to me; if he talks to me, I'm afraid he'll touch me; if he touches me, I'm afraid he'll rape me; if he rapes me, I'm afraid he'll kill me. I'm afraid to walk down the street.

I know that this fear is largely conditioned and irrational. But I'm looking at *this* situation, and *this* person, and *my* fear of *him*, and guess what? I think I've hit the jackpot. I think he really is going to kill me.

So I immediately stopped resisting -- stopped trying to kick out the car window, stopped leaning on the horn, stopped wrenching his flesh with my fingers. And then tried, but gave up, protesting that there were ... health and hygiene ... reasons he might not want to proceed with his plan. And adopted the role that I thought would best keep me in control of the situation to the point that I continued living: a party girl who had just got a bit confused and was actually quite happy to do anything he wanted. And bided my time, and ultimately caught him off guard by pretending to stop to put my shoes on, when he opened the car door so that we could "go for a walk" in the woods at the bottom of the abandoned quarry where we were ... and ran.

Now. Did I feel that "I was totally in his power"? You want to believe I did. Did it terrify and anger me? Uh huh.

But remember that "best revenge" ... living well? Well, the best revenge is living, in this case.

I, and you, did not get killed. At least partly to our own credit. At least partly because we maintained what control we could of our own actions and feelings and of the situation, and did what we thought wisest in order to achieve *our* goal -- to go on living. We weren't really completely under someone else's control. We did have some control over the outcome. Given that we had no control over whether the situation we were in happened, once it happened -- and we really just do not have that kind of complete control in life, ever -- we did get the outcome we wanted. He may have had the power, but we won.

When you say "I was totally in his power", you are reliving one aspect of that experience, but not looking at the experience as a whole and exploring what other feelings it might prompt. An experience like that can actually enhance one's confidence in, and knowledge of, one's self. Me, I was damned good. I saved my life. I like knowing that.

We really just do not and will never have complete control over the situations that arise in our lives. My own view, from experience, is that following the urge to try to acquire ever more control, rather than using the control that we actually do have and recognizing how we actually have exercised it, is mainly futile and is not really very likely to make one feel any better in fact.

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I wonder whether, in view of the fact that I am speaking personally about personal experience and feelings, anyone who might be tempted to impose his/her own paradigm on those experiences and feelings, to use them as a launching pad for pontificating about something I have not been talking about, might just count to ten and move on. I'm not disparaging anyone else's experiences or reactions to them, and maybe I could expect the same.

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They're used FAR more often to intimidate people, and even more often to punch holes in pieces of paper.

to defend your daughter under the circumstances in the cited article.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=3956

I don't believe you have the courage to read the cited article and reply back to this post and say you would not have defended your 10 year old daughter with a gun from being gang-raped and brutally murded.

that can fit on your key ring or is easily accessible.
Nothing like chemicals in the eye.

Pulling out a gun can be cumbersome and take too much time.
Also, a gun does not guarantee success.
Just think if you miss. You will probably be dead.

spraying a caustic chemical into the face of a person with a gun in your ribs is a sure-fire way to convince him to pull the trigger. Given that it's barrel is stuck in your ribs, I wonder where the bullet would go?

Your suggestion is the STUPIDEST and MOST dangerous idea I've heard in a LONG time. Better to be totally unarmed and comply with the robber's demands while praying that he doesn't shoot you, than spray something into his face guaranteeing that he WILL shoot you.

During your ordeal, was there a time when it would have made a difference if YOU had had a gun then? Or were you taken by surprise?

Are you prepared to carry a gun every day and keep it safely stored when it is not on your person?

A gun does no good if you aren't aware of what is going on around you. The best advice is just that.

VERY aware of my surroundings everywhere I am now. Of course, right now, I'm suspicious and distrustful of everyone since it's only been six days since it happened and I know it'll take some time to deal with. But I never paid much attention to my surroundings before, thinking that these things always happen to other people, and that's going to change from now on.

car after work and there were a couple of times when I would have been able to grab a gun if I'd had it, but I'm really not sure. I just don't know, all I know is I never want to experience that feeling of total, complete helplessness, powerlessness and fear, with someone I don't know having total power over my life, ever again!

I've known a handful of people who carried guns (legally and otherwise) and none of them ever prevented any crime whatsoever (I thought they were all idiots,with or without their little friends). One committed a crime, one shot himself while playing with it, a couple got mugged anyway (and the robbers got the guns) and one of THEM got shot with his own gun in the ass as he was running away. Most just stood around acting tough in bars and other places where it was a poor idea to have anyone with a gun.

Be careful if you do decide to buy one.

Those were the right questions to ask. There certainly are times that carrying a side arm won't help your situation. For example it would be foolish to try to draw your own gun with a bad guy's gun in your ribs. But if someone forces you into a car there may very well be the opportunity to get out of a deadly situation by using your gun.

In response to: "Are you prepared to carry a gun every day and keep it safely stored when it is not on your person?"

Carrying a gun everyday is like buckling up every time you drive your car. It's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. And safely storing a gun at home is really a simple matter.

Two years from now, when the immediate fear has subsided and the gun is forgotten in a drawer, and somebody's toddler comes over and starts exploring, it can be a tragedy waiting to happen.

but not on the first part.

That event will never repeat itself exactly. What if the opportunity to use a gun will arise in a future event of the type?

Or better yet, adopt a dog from the Humane Society. Get one that barks good and loud.

A burglar will not know if you have a gun or not until they are already in your house, but a dog will usually make it's presence known as soon as they get close to a window or door.

I remember reading somewhere, sometime, that a house with a dog is between 15 and 20 times less likely to be burgularized. Burglar will usually try to find the easiest target, and a dog always adds an unknown factor.

before commenting.

Sorry for the off topic rant.

it's a great idea for the home.
Better security than an alarm.
Thiefs dislike two things, bullets and teeth!

Get a dog.
A gun can never be your friend.

The best defense is your brain.
Avoid situations and places where you are more likely to be attacked.

And travelling with a dog or keeping on in your car while you shop(when its not too hot or the windows are down of course) can help.

going to take the dog to work? Leave it in the car?

What a useless idea...

wouldn't have made any difference in that case. We already have two dogs at home who would have a very nasty welcome for anyone who tried to get in for less than neighborly purposes. But a dog's not going to do you any good in your car

a dog in the car could bark, and slobber on the windows. That's about it. I don't think that would deter a robber, though.

and your employer loves the mess they leave in the office.
Most stores allow them to roam freely throughout their establishments as well.

Great for the house true, but not very efective once you leave.

Judo or karate may not help if you are up against a gun, but some martial arts training might help with your own sense of empowerment and help you get over the shock of being assaulted. WAY back when I was in college I took a couple of karate classes and they're good exercise and give you a different perspective on how to handle potentially dangerous situations.

How safe are your surroundings? Have there been other assaults around your work place or was this an isolated incident? That is something that would affect my decision, although to be honest, I'd probably consider switching jobs rather than getting a gun.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

My tax accountant used to do the books for a retail store in National City, CA, which can be a very dangerous place at times. He got robbed at gunpoint by a young man, and lost about $30,000 of his employer's money, a cash deposit that my friend was on his way to a bank to deposit. He'd been on the job just a few weeks. Fortunately the employer carried insurance that covered the loss.

His occupation enabled him to get something that very few people do: A California concealed weapons permit. He had to complete a course that included instruction on the law, hands-on training with guns, and general self defense information - situational awareness, how to carry yourself, etc.

The instructor stressed that most punks who rob you have had very little practice with their guns, and that if you know what to do and have gotten some range time in you are actually very likely to win should an actual gunfight erupt. If they shoot they are quite likely to miss, and most of them run like hell when they see that their prospective victim is armed and confident.

Fast-forwarding to the end of the story to save time here, over the next two years my friend was never robbed again. Nobody even tried. He attributes that to the way he carried himself in public. The gun and the knowledge that he could actually use it if necessary gave him an air of confidence that crooks can sense.

Just one anecdote. My attitude is don't buy a gun unless you really want one and are willing to use it. And "use it" only rarely means "shoot someone", but you need to be prepared to do that should you decide to carry a gun.

Or maybe he was never in that situation again.
Crime is often being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

n/t

Criminals pick people who they preceive are weak. He thought that since you were a woman he had (and did) have the upper hand. I have never read the book myself and suggesting it will cause me trouble here, but read "Armed and Female" by Paxton Quigley, I have heard from others that it gives you alot to think about if you decide to carry or not.

Or not. In any case his having the gun and the permit and the training hasn't hurt anyone.

He hasn't worked at that place for many years but keeps renewing his permit. Once you get one here it's not hard to keep it unless you get convicted of a felony. I don't know how often he actually carries a gun.

And no correlations. Only cause and effect.

"... over the next two years my friend was never robbed again.
Nobody even tried. He attributes that to the way he carried himself
in public. The gun and the knowledge that he could actually use it if
necessary gave him an air of confidence that crooks can sense."

I wonder what all those crooks who hadn't robbed him before he got the gun were sensing. Hell, he'd been doing it a few weeks -- more than enough time for what, 30 or 40 robberies? And had no one ever done the job before him, and not been robbed?

To what might your friend attribute all those non-robberies?

"... you are actually very likely to win should an actual gunfight
erupt. If they shoot they are quite likely to miss, and most of them
run like hell when they see that their prospective victim is armed
and confident."

And as usual, I wonder what the hell that might have to do with a situation in which someone approaches you from behind and sticks a gun in your ribs (or hell, whacks you over the head with a 2x4).

Do many would-be robbers stand 10 feet from their victims and say "gimme your loot!" -- giving the victim the notice and time required to whip out a handgun? And if the robber *does* do that, is s/he not likely to be aiming a firearm at the victim at the time? And if faced with a robber standing 10 feet away aiming a firearm at one's chest, how stupid would someone have to be to try to draw and outshoot said robber?

Of course, you could always wait until the robber had your loot and was leaving, and shoot him/her in the back. I gather there are places where you wouldn't be prosecuted for killing him/her if that happened.

Are shootouts on main street really something I should expect to see a lot of if I visit your part of the world?

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I'll try to address the questions that don't seem completely trite.

I wonder what all those crooks who hadn't robbed him before he got the gun were sensing.

Maybe none of them ever saw an opportunity to rob him before the time one did. Do robbers instantly rob any new person on the block? I really don't know.

And had no one ever done the job before him, and not been robbed?

I don't know how long the business had been in existence or what happened before my friend worked there. What difference does it make?

Are shootouts on main street really something I should expect to see a lot of if I visit your part of the world?

Shootouts are very rare in the San Diego area. When they happen they're usually in a few high-crime areas where gang members congregate. The city of National City has many such places. I wouldn't recommend walking around with a large sum of cash there unless you really need to. There no beach there anyway. Your chance of being robbed in La Jolla or Del Mar is near zero.

The man who robbed you obviously thought you disarmed. Most thugs are chickenshits who get guns to terrify their victims who do not. Especially in big cities with gun laws.

Now most shootin' ranges have rental guns. Go to the range and talk with the folks there. Describe your situation. They'll listen.

They want to sell you a gun but they also don't want to give ammo to Brady et al. Most guns stores/ranges are VERY careful who they sell to. A few- VERY FEW- are not.

I would suggest renting a .22 handgun and getting help shooting it. Go from there.


If you get the right training and practice in using your handgun, then you should have no trouble using it. If your life is in danger, you will use your gun without hesitation. Just like a cop.

"But others are saying that that's a foolish idea, that,
even if I'd had the gun when I was being mugged, it probably
wouldn't have made any difference and I likely would have made
things a lot worse, which very well could be true. And that's
the way I normally would feel. The problem is, the people saying
it have never been through what I went through, and I'm a lot less
sure of that now."

... what I can't figure out is:

- what relevance the fact that someone has never been robbed at gunpoint would have to the reasonableness of the idea that having one's own gun is not going to protect one from being robbed in the way you were;

- what relevance having been robbed in the way you were would have in your own assessment of the reasonableness of that idea.

"They say that the criminal had a gun, as most do, so why
shouldn't I have one to protect myself with also? I never thought
I'd agree with that point of view, but I'm a lot more sympathetic
to it now than I've ever been before, and I understand it a lot
better."

... and what I can't figure out is:

- what relevance criminals having guns has to do with you having a gun, other than as some sort of tit for tat justification for escalation (read Tom Lehrer for an amusing but pithy commentary on that: http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/whosnext.htm)

- why you would find yourself more sympathetic to a point of view that is demonstrably irrational, as you yourself have said.

.

You know perfectly well that "having a gun" would have done nothing to protect you from that robbery. Perhaps if you'd had a gun and kept it in hand at all times, and walked down streets, and around parking lots, swivelling from side to side and around and around to make sure no one got close enough to you to stick a gun in your ribs ...

Can you actually think of some circumstance in which "having a gun" *would* protect you from having a crime committed against you? What circumstance might that be -- other than having the gun in your hand at all times? If you ever set it down, or put it in your purse, or unloaded it, it wouldn't do you any damned good at all if someone came up and stuck a gun in your ribs, I'd think.

On the other hand, can you think of any circumstances in which "having a gun" might actually be a rather bad idea? Got kids? Any kids visit your house? Just for starters.

Are you really "a lot less sure of" the merits of the point of view that "having a gun" isn't likely to do you any good, and is more likely to do someone harm? Or are you just somewhat overwhelmed by feelings of insecurity, not all of which are rational? Are those feelings a sound basis for this kind of decision?

Me, I've been a victim of violent crime. A life-threatening violent crime. Many years ago, and I still have twinges of post-traumatic stress in certain situations. I could be dead this minute, could have been dead 30 years by now. I think I would have been if I hadn't got away.

Nobody had a gun. If he'd had one, I'm really pretty sure I'd be dead. If I'd had one, who knows? -- The circumstances were such that I might well have ended up being the dead one anyway. I'm pretty happy the way things turned out: me alive, him in prison for a while. Given that the situation itself happened, which situations like that tend to do when there are people in the world wanting to do unpleasant things to other people, no matter how much one tries to avoid them (and I actually hadn't tried quite hard enough), I can't think of a better outcome.

And I have never for an instant thought that buying a gun would do me any damned good at all.

My recommendation? First, put decisions like this on hold. Gain some more insight into your feelings -- specifically, since there is little doubt that post-traumatic stress is a factor in them, consider whether you can deal with that on your own or might benefit from some help. If you don't get formal help, be sure to have an outlet -- someone non-interfering to talk to, not about what you should do, just about what happened and how you feel.

The aim is to feel comfortable without outside props. A gun isn't going to make you feel comfortable if you don't; it's going to mask your discomfort and that can lead to all sorts of problems ... including inappropriate use of the trigger in response to triggering stimuli.

An uncomfortable, stressed victim with a gun in my vicinity is not my idea of what makes *me* safe.
;)

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Carry a 1911 45 automatic openly on your hip and see how many times you get robbed.

That was a most enlightening and intelligent and respectful response to my comments.

If I'd been speaking to you, I'd care what you thought.

Allow me just to suggest that a person who was looking to acquire one of those 1911 45 automatics, whatever they might be, might just think that you'd be the perfect person into whose ribs to stick his/her own gun with one hand, while placing his/her other hand firmly on the thing on your hip.

Nice chatting with you.

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"Allow me just to suggest that a person who was looking to acquire one of those 1911 45 automatics, whatever they might be, might just think that you'd be the perfect person into whose ribs to stick his/her own gun with one hand, while placing his/her other hand firmly on the thing on your hip."

that's why cops are so often the victims of armed robbery when working in uniform...

Talk about a ludicrous statement...

"that's why cops are so often the victims of armed robbery
when working in uniform..."

I wasn't aware that the person I was speaking to was a uniformed cop.

I must now assume that she is. That would be the only way that I can imagine your comment being of any relevance.

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Why aren't cops robbed more often? Is it because criminals are scared of the uniform? ("Can't rob him, he's wearing BLUE!!!") Not likely. Is it because criminals respect the police so much for their role as society's protectors that they'd never dream of robbing them? Even LESS bloodly likely.

Cops aren't generally robbed because they have big guns strapped to their waists, where people can see them.

Relevance:
If wearing a gun on your belt, unconcealed, makes you a target of armed robbery by people looking to steal the gun (as you explicitly stated), then why the hell aren't more cops robbed?

You made a really stupid, preposterous comment. Admit it.

"Cops aren't generally robbed because they have big guns
strapped to their waists, where people can see them."

That is apparently your story, and you are apparently sticking to it. Congratulations.

Your reiteration and blustering really is not "argument". Let alone proof. Perhaps one day you will grow up and ... understand ... this.

"Relevance:
If wearing a gun on your belt, unconcealed, makes you a target
of armed robbery by people looking to steal the gun (as you
explicitly stated), then why the hell aren't more cops robbed?"
(emphasis added)

Just for starters, I "explicitly stated" no such thing.

I really hate it when people lie about me and things I say. Hey -- that's just a general observation. Nobody needs to get his/her knickers in knots.

What I DID say was:

"Allow me just to suggest that a person who was looking to acquire
one of those 1911 45 automatics, whatever they might be, might just
think that you'd be the perfect person into whose ribs to stick his/her
own gun with one hand, while placing his/her other hand firmly on the
thing on your hip."

Find me an explicit statement in there that matches the one you falsely attributed to me, and I'll dine on it.

Your next challenge will be to think really hard about what differences there might be between Jo Law-Abiding-Citizen walking down the street with a big walloping firearm on his/her hip and Lou Law-Enforcing-Cop walking down the street with the same. You might want to aim for more than one. You might even want to let your mind freely associate, and consider things like "what is often stolen from homes in break-ins" (hint: firearms), and "what can I infer from this as to what criminals might often be looking to steal" (hint: firearms) ... and then maybe even "I wonder why there aren't many break-ins at police stations even though there are lots of firearms there". And perhaps even something like "I wonder how much the perceived ease of the endeavour influences a criminal's choice between available alternatives", or "I wonder how much the severity of the possible punishment in the event of failure, or the likelihood of being unpleasantly hurt in the course of the endeavour, influences a criminal's choice between available alternatives". You could likely come up with some questions of your own in this regard. I'm not "explicitly stating" that these considerations will be relevant. I'm just suggesting that you might want to think about whether they are.

You might even look into whether private individuals very often have their firearms stolen from (or heck, used against) them, and compare that to the rate at which the same things happen to cops. Just for a little reality check on your own ... "really stupid, preposterous statement"?

I am really very, very sure that you can meet this challenge. I am also reasonably sure that you will decline to provide evidence of that ability.

But if you did, you could then, sincerely, honestly and in good faith, address the question of whether any of those differences might be RELEVANT when it came to estimating the chances of someone attempting to steal the thing in question.

Or you can just keep on as you are. No skin off mine.

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and then demanding I prove my statements pointing out the stupidity of your statement, when you've offered zero proof for your original assertation.

What kind of proof do you have that wearing a pistol on your hip makes you a target of a robber trying to get your gun?

You throw up the ridiculous "guns are stolen" argument, when you know full well (or, if you don't know, you prove your idiocy) that there are several UNCONTROVERSIAL studies out there stating that criminals in the US go to great lengths to avoid running into armed howeowners.

Why do homes get burgled while police departments don't? Could it be that homes are often unoccupied, while police offices are manned 24/7 by people with guns? Why don't "cop hangouts" get robbed often? Why do restaurants often offer free benefits to cops in uniform? Could it be that people are less likely to try and rob a place when there are a bunch of armed people inside?

How often are guns stolen from the hands of a person? Can you offer even a SINGLE anecdotal case of this happening? Guns are often stolen during burglaries...because the owner is NOT PRESENT.

I can tell that you have NO experience with law enforcement, or even risk management. Ever hear of the term "hardened target"? Well, hate to point this out, but a person carrying a gun is a "hardened target"...and your obfuscating does nothing to change that fact.

"What kind of proof do you have that wearing a pistol on your hip
makes you a target of a robber trying to get your gun?"

What proof do you have THAT I SAID THAT IT DID?

Here's your chance. Copy and paste what I said.

The drill: either do that -- provide proof of the allegation you have made against me -- or retract it and apologize.

Your turn to roll.

I'm no more interested in the rest of your unsubstantiated hypothesizing about anything you're on about here than I am in any further reiteration of your false allegation.

.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I notice someone suggested that it is inadvisable to have loaded guns in cars because of the possibility of road rage, for instance.

That's what I was getting at with that "trigger" reference.

Someone with post-traumatic stress after experiencing an "invasive" attack (and that could include having one's home "invaded", which can lead to feelings of insecurity in the place where one is supposed to feel most secure) really is more vulnerable to "road rage" type over-reactions to stressful situations. Voice of experience.

In cases like yours and mine, it is because of the heightened feelings of insecurity. But it is also because of reduced tolerance for perceived "invasions". There is a transferrence, from the person who committed the invasion that has caused the discomfort and stress and loss of dignity to anyone else who is perceived as invasive -- and not even necessarily physically.

It leads to a kind of "I don't have to take this shit from you!" response, which isn't entirely bad, since it is a reaffirmation of one's own dignity and value, which one may have felt was taken away, denied, by the person who committed the "invasion" that caused the trauma.

But again, it isn't a good thing to mix with firearms.

.

(nt)

Having been a gun owner for 65+ years, I see good advice above.

A couple of points, even if you save your life by shooting and killing some thug be prepared for trial, legal fees up the gazoo, worry and anxiety without end.

And as pointed out several times above, it takes constant training with the emphasis on constant to grab a gun and if some kind of automatic (semi-auto for the term specific) you have to be sure of where the safety is, is a round in the chamber, etc. Takes a lot of constant practice. Much less uncertainty with a revolver, altho I'm sure I would get some arguments with that statement.

My point being mace and a good mace not the dimestore stuff, would probably be more practical for a girl alone.

The important point I think is not getting into these situations. Sitting alone in a car with the windows down and the doors unlocked in those areas where there is some possiblity of a crime being committed, that is dark or isolated and not a lot of people around is an invitation in those situations to an opportunistic criminal.

The old advice is to always walk like your going somewhere and know your surroundings, be aware, get in the car hit the starter, windows up and by the way if it is dark hopefully the dome light will come on before you get in and you can see if anyone is in the car but with the car running then you can do the lipstick, etc. and if someone approaches whip the wheel, gun the engine lay on the horn and get the hell out of there, better to hit another car or run over the bastard, insurance will pay in that case.

Run it through your mind over and over what you will do and if "pray not" ever happens again, you will know what to do.

In other words, I am saying probably no gun,

It is not up to other people, it is your decision. But it is not which argument has more merit, it is the fact that after all of the actions of the MMM organization, you still have the ability to get a gun if you want one. That is not what that organization wants.

The whole difference between the RKBA groups and the gun nuts that want to do away with them is just what you described as your predicament. The ability for law abiding citizens to purchase firearms. You have the constitutional right to possess a gun if you wish; you have the right of free speech to pontificate on either side of that issue. But YOU HAVE THE RIGHT. That person with that gun that robbed you infringed on your rights. You did not like it. It is much the same way that supporters of the 2nd feel to the gun nuts (anti 2nd) that stand on soap boxes and peddle their views.

My advise if you do purchase a weapon. Get a big one. A 45 does a good job at putting someone down.

Well concealed PROBABLY wouldn't.

Can you carry open where you live?

You are alive but traumatised now. Would you be if you'd tried to pull a gun?

What have you lost? Posessions, sense of control and sense of safety. How exactly is a gun going to get any of them back? If it just a "sense" I'd suggest some contemplation of the risks involved before bringing a weapon into your house.

However, I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with handling a gun (preferably take some course) before making a decision either way.

I typically lurk here just to see what is being said and get a feeling for your opinions and what not, know your enemy and all that as I am a republican/conservative at heart. That being said I don't post here to push my agenda, disagree, fight, troll or do anything that would take away from your discussions. No flame wars from me.

Anyway I just felt I needed to post regarding this poor person's encounter.

I just wanted to say that I am sooooo sorry that you had to experience what you did and I hope that it doesn't haunt you forever. Bad things happen sometimes and there is nothing we can do about them.

I am a gun owner and extremely pro gun pro self defense but before you even think about carrying a firearm you need to mentally prepare yourself for the responsibility involved. You need training, practice and the will to use it as a self defense item. You need to know the laws and most of all you need to know yourself. Don't make a rash decision to run out and buy a gun or change your belief's based on the anger, fear and other emotions you are feeling. In the long run you may do more harm than good.

All that being said if you want some advice on how to go about it feel free to email me or drop by www.thehighroad.org The people over there are generally friendly and won't bite. They will also give you so much information and advice you will have reading to put you to sleep for a long time.

My suggestion is you try doing some shooting for fun first and see if it is something you want to work up to in terms of a defensive weapon. Remember most of us shoot and own weapons for fun and pleasure primarily. We do carry for defense or will defend our homes but more likely than not we shoot and own guns for the pleasure of it.

I believe gun rights should be absolute. You have been or are a MMM member. Two sides of the coin. Just take the time to make an informed decision before letting everything you believe in fall to the wayside. Just because we don't agree on firearms and self defense etc. doesn't mean that I don't respect your beliefs and I don't think anybody should make drastic belief changes due to fear, anger or any other emotion. We would love to have you come over to "our side" and any one of us would gladly offer support, just take things slowly.

As for whether a gun would have helped. I don't know, I wasn't there. If you had a gun pressed into your ribs there isn't much you could of done, armed or not. The most important thing we as gun owners learn is situational awareness and that may have been just as valuable.

Once again please don't take this as a crazy gun nut insensitive republican using this situation to spout political/social agenda as that is not my intent. My heart just went out to you and only wanted to offer some support and insight.

You will not find me trolling your boards and trying to corrupt any of your discussions as I don't think that would be beneficial to anybody involved.

Please take care and as I said don't be afraid to come visit www.thehighroad.org, I promise we won't bite. We might have a few crazy members but doesn't every family.

Thanks for the chance to post. I hope I have not ruffled too many feathers here.

Chris

One doesn't have to be conservative to agree with that. Merely common-sense.

I have lurked (and even posted) at thehighroad.org as well. They are a great group of guys (and gals). They are not as "extreme" as some of the other "gun nut" forums and are usually very helpful (even to new members that aren't exactly pro-gun, but open to friendly discussion).
OP

Cslinger Great Post!!

So, if I'm repeating anything already mentioned here, my apologies.

I read the original post about your experience. I responded with some advice about "situational
awareness".

First off, you should probably seek some counseling to help you deal with your traumatic experience.
It doesn't necessarily have to be professional help. I'm sure there are online forums where other victims of
crime can share their stories and how they've managed to cope. There might also be local victims rights
groups in your area.

Once you've come to honest terms with your experience, then decide if a firearm is right for you.

By your own admissions, the incident has turned your whole life upside down to the point where
you're in constant fear and distrust of others. That's not good. That coupled with any anger you might
feel is not a good situation for carrying a concealed firearm.

Once the fear and anger subsides, then decided if a firearm is right for you. If you do decide to carry a
handgun, by all means learn everything you can and practice, practice, practice. Join a local club or range.
It's rare that another more experienced member wouldn't help you out or answer questions.
I spend on average about 6 - 8 hours per week at my range. (that might seem excessive to some, but I have the time off and it's something I enjoy). At least a 1/4 of that time is spent talking with other shooters... either learning stuff for myself or teaching others.

Learn the laws in your state governing the rules of self defense.

Check out the Second Amendment Sisters http://www.sas-aim.org if you're more comfortable learning from
other females.

All this nonsense about dogs, pepper spray, martial arts is just that... nonsense. It looks fine in the movies
but in reality against an armed attacker it won't help you out in a real SHTF (Shit Hits The Fan) situation.
It might give you a sense of confidence, but I wouldn't place my life on it.

Once all is said and done, what you really have to decide is if you really have the nerve to pull the trigger
on someone. It can be a bluff of sorts, (in the majority of situations brandishing a firearm is enough to pacify
things), but you still have to convey the message that if necessary you will defend yourself or your
loved ones .

Right now you're a victim of fear. How you choose to correct it is your decision.

Those who meekly submit to an attacker
are trusting a criminal to be a decent person, and let them go unharmed.
The only person who testified against Ted Bundy, fought back, escaped, and survived.
All those who submitted died!


"Get Mace or a taser"
Yeah sure!
Use Mace or pepper spray or a taser, but understand it only works on most people.
Some people just get pissed off.

I got Maced once by a Deputy Sheriff.

Memory of that s* dripping off my glasses and the burning in my throat.
Made me so mad, I kicked his a**.

Suddenly thinking "What am I doing? This as*ho* is a cop."
I fled the scene.
For decades afterwards, my biker buddies would tell me,
when I got upset: "Don't get macey!"



Never got robbed yet.

One attempt (1973):
Working as a cashier at an all-night gas station.

"Robber" showed me his .38 or .357 revolver and demanded I open the cash drawer.

I threw him the key, so he had to grab to catch it,
and turned my back.
Reached into my waistband clip holster
& drew my little Smith & Wesson auto,
turned and fired.

Cops took my gun.
Grand Jury (twice) refused to indict me.

Story from the Mau-Mau uprising:
The British officer had retired to his farm.
He kept a Webley revolver in a drawer in a table by the window.
When the Mau-Mau warrior crashed through the window into his living room.
He was on the far side of the room, and the warrior stood beside that table holding a spear.


1. Get a CCW permit and training (especially learn when NOT to use a gun)
2. Become familiar with and skilled with your gun.
3. Practice survival skills.

eg: When I taught martial arts, (Tang-Soo-Do)
exercises included:
-being up against a wall with a gun at student's back,
-facing an armed assailant/ dive and roll under the gunfire and come up from below in a sudden counterattack.
(actually worked once for me in real life; he shot over me, as I came up from underneath and grabbed the gun.)

An unarmed martial artist close enough to kick or use hand moves to take the gun should go for it!
An unarmed martial artist too far away to reach the gun should use:
"Run-Fu"
'Run Fu Yu Life!', cause your hands and feet cannot stop a bullet.

I'd advise a woman with a concealed carry permit,
I would carry a 5 shot .22 derringer (revolver) in a bra.
Use shot loads so you are less likely to either miss or to kill the assailant.

Referring to: "I'd advise a woman with a concealed carry permit,
I would carry a 5 shot .22 derringer (revolver) in a bra.
Use shot loads so you are less likely to either miss or to kill the assailant."

(first let me ask: if it's a 5 shot it's not a derringer is it?)

I think shooting a guy with a tiny charge of fine birdshot isn't much different than using mace and only slightly better than using a taser.
It would seem you're only going to piss him off more. Heavy clothing and hand blocking his face will stop any real damage. If you are going to use a gun you must be prepared to kill your assailant.

Tasers work for cops because they can cuff them before they regain consiousness. Usually in about 15 seconds. You and I are only going to have a really pissed off bad guy in 15 seconds.

Weapons wise,
RoeBear has a valid point!

IMHO/RoeBear could probably wield a .357 4 shot derringer, 9mm, or a .45.


Comments below for everyone less familiar with firearms:


http://www.naaminis.com/lrifle.html

First view at the above link.



I personally,
choose to testify against a live assailant instead of being on trial for having killed my attacker.

Hard earned experience has taught me thus.

anyone who thinks otherwise...please consider:

After you go before a grand jury to defend your actions.
Argue with me on the legalities of self defense.

After you're prosecuted for defending yourself and get "found not quilty & exonerated",
then argue with me from a knowledegable basis.

I've been there.
Fought for my life.

Dealt with a corrupt legal system.

Invested every penny available
to fund defense against ridiculous charges.


Free, and legally, carrying a concealed weapon.

Law abiding, and innocent of any crime, does not mean immune to arrest and imprisonment.

Innocent people get convicted every day.

I would think the "rat shot" would just tick him off.

One point on the taser (at least the new ones): They don't lose consiousness, you just keep tasing them until they give up (once is usually enough). The pain and effects generally only last as long as it's working (ours last for 5 seconds). Once they feel it, they usually don't want it again and let you handcuff them.
OP

...to see if he'll stop resisting, doesn't that give him a chance to rip the wires out?

The probes have little barbs on them (like a small fish hook) and as long as they're stuck in the person's clothing/skin, they'll feel it. The wires are really thin and could break, too. As a backup, you can use the end of the taser to deliver a shock should the wires miss, break, pull out, etc. Also, it sometimes seems to daze them for a second - so maybe they don't think fast enough to try to pull out the wires before you can hit the juice again. Even then, if they get one out while the other is still in, they can still get a decent shock with one wire. The main thing is, it drops the bad guy to the ground, which gives the cop an advantage. And sometimes they fall on top of the wires/probes and can't get to them without getting up/rolling over (and getting shocked again). Most people want to comply after getting the first shock - I know I would.
I don't carry one, but I've been through a brief class on them (and have seen some cops get tased in training) - so I might not have all my details exactly right (and won't be upset if I'm corrected by someone that knows more).
I've also heard that you can touch the person being tased anywhere except between the probes without being shocked yourself - not that I want to volunteer to see if that's true.
OP

When somebody is hit with a taser, they get a shock. While being shocked, they can still move around. If they are hit with a taser in a vital area (near the spine or neck) for a certain amount of time, THEN they can become stunned.

The barbs are very small, much smaller than "fish-hook" barbs. They can easily be pulled out without much discomfort.

"Startling lack of familiarity"?
I'm talking specifically about the Advanced Taser M26.

For someone to be so sure of themselves, I'm guessing you've used this model or had it used on you? Please elaborate on your extensive experience.

I've seen large men drop to the ground with just one probe in their pocket (in training). There is no need to hit a "vital area". Yeah they move somewhat, but not really in control of their movements. And yes, we agree they have barbs and these barbs are smaller than fish hooks. BTW, they make some very small fish hooks. My point was they help to hold them in - mainly in your clothing. Even if they do come out, most officers carry a second cartridge (plus they can use the "barrel" end of the taser also).

Read more about it at: http://www.airtaser.com/pages/products/ledata.html

OP

but have extensive experience with stun guns, like the original Nova XR-5000, on both the giving (in practical situations) and receiving (in training) end. I've had people drop and comply after the first hit with a stun gun...and others who fought it (and me) for the full four seconds.

Are you suggesting that the base technology differs from stun guns to tasers? My understanding is that only the delivery system is different.

BTW, do they still use those silly little plastic taggants on air tasers? ;-)

(that it works differently). Honestly, I don't know - this is the only taser (or stun gun type device) that our dept has EVER used. I've never used an older type (or even seen one used in person). They claim these are more effective and our instructors say they have a different effect. I'm told (feel free to correct me if this is wrong) that with the traditional stun gun, your muscles would react in a way that cause your hands to make a fist - but with this taser it's the opposite and your hands straighten out. They talk alot about electro-muscular disruption - is that the same principle with the older types? Again, I've seen what THIS taser does in training and heard stories of what it has done on the street. I agree, I'm no taser/stun gun expert.
I think there's some sort of ID tag that comes out with the regular cartridge. I know there's a memory chip that records the date and time it was fired also.
OP

Get training.
Get a permit.
Get a gun.

Never be a victim again.

Twhat amendment 2 is all about.

the right of americans to protect themselves agains criminals,
even if those criminals have badges.
Oops- I almost gave away why gun grabbers want to disarm honest people:
Criminals with badges.