New York Micro-Stamping Legislation Passes Assembly Committee

NOTE: IF YOU ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE SUBJECT PLEASE VISIT THE FOLLOWING LINK WHICH GIVES BOTH THE PRO AND CONS OF MICROSTAMPING.

Really? How fascinating. If anything, ONLY cops should be using this system. After all, police departments have the money and the bureaucracy needed to keep track of such things as well as make sure the microprinting system is working properly. Every month, say, each cop fired a service round. The casing is collected and run through forensics to make sure the microprinting is working and properly registered to each cop.

Some enterprising hoodlum would get a couple of five gallon buckets of brass from the police range to dump at the next crime scene.

The cops would spend the next eight months staking out donut shops and arresting each other.

"accidentally" remove it while cleaning your gun?

ten test fired rounds, the clarity of the imprinted coding was seriously degraded....and while "accidentally" removing it might be a bit improbable it is quite easy to do so intentionally. See my post #4

My worry is old brass from my gun lying around for anyone to pick up and who know where it ends up.

I bet many gun shops would run a "micro-stamp removal service" or gun stores would sell guns and part of the sale is to remove the mico-stamping.

but for many less familiar with firearms, it would be a natural and not unrealistic concern. I don't reload, so the extent to which I police my brass is generally confined to sweeping it into whichever area the range has a brass "mulch" pile going. ;)

If microstamping were to approach on the horizon, I'd be one of those ordering replacement firing pins for all of my firearms - as well as for those I was planning on purchasing in the foreseeable future - before such a law took effect.

Why not file/swap? The folks who would need to have already broken a few other laws.

should familiarize themselves with the analysis done by George Krivosta of the Suffolk County, NY Crime Laboratory.

Krivosta is a professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, a firearms expert, and a credentialied member of the Association of Firearms and Toolmarks Examiners. His findings presented in a peer reviewed paper of that group of forensics experts was published in the AFTE Journal Vol 138 2006. The abstract of which can be found here:
http://www.nssf.org/share/legal/docs/AFTEVol38No1KrivostaNanoTag.pdf

Any reasonable evaluation of the benefits of requiring such technology would be the reliability of said technology, and the potential ease with which it might be circumvented.....because, let's face it criminals whole raison d'être is to work around or outright violate laws.

Anything to identify where that bullet came from is worth trying. Even if it only works 1% of time, it's worth it. Can't see how a law abiding gun purchaser would whine about this. But, I'm sure those who can't live without a bunch of them at home and on their person will find all kinds of reasons to oppose such legislation.

1% efficacy against crime versus the cost? Non-starter.

I suspect 1% is a bit low, but if it helps solve crimes with guns I'm for it. Nor, do I have any great concern that the cost of another weapon for those adding to their weapons cache increases a bit. Those who drool over these weapons will come up with the money.

FUCK YOU!

A regular damn political genius You are!

:rofl:

If Democrats gave them guns and ammo, they'd still vote for a right winger.

What's your problem with micro-stamping?

to profit some enterprising capitalist by preying on the fears and prejudices of oblivious liberals at public expense.

Sucker.

These private sales/transfers are probably the main way criminals get guns -- but you "capitalists" don't care as long as you can sell guns at top dollar. Heck, throw in a set of files, a bag for ejected cartridges, a broom and dust pan, etc., and make a few more bucks when you sell guns to folks who can't buy them legitimately.

Exactly how much will it cost?

The increase in the value of my collection would be HUGE. Maybe I am all for it.

And I just know that you are looking out for the profits of the gun makers since they will be able to pass those added costs on to the consumer. Added cost to put the microstamping on might be $10 but they can raise the prices by $100. A genius you are, increasing the profits of those evil gun makers.

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When I buy a gun I generally don't sell them. The only exception is when I buy a couple of collectable guns, keep the best one for myself and sell the other one. I have three sons and will be handing them down to them in my will.

"I figured you were big into private sales to folks who could not obtain a gun otherwise."
Where exactly to you get this information from my post? This is exactly what I said:

"Actually it would benefit me immensely
The increase in the value of my collection would be HUGE. Maybe I am all for it."



Quite a liar you are.

Nice of you to openly accuse him of a crime.

Nice try though.

yup

But we are (with the exception of myself) Union workers, and vote dem/progressive.

I think there are only two issues where I diverge from textbook Progressives (Firearms and Nuclear Power).

Now what?

yup

and the technology is easily and cheaply nullified - 10 minutes time, and a small bit of emory cloth and voilà, one has a pristing firing pin.

So why should we support adoption of this again?

extraordinarily easy and can be done by almost anyone with little technical knowledge and with the simplest of tools.

How I'd do it would be to replace the firing pin with a pre-statute, non-stamped OEM replacement part.

Maybe someday a policeman will examine my gun - but they will only do so with a validly executed search warrant, naming specifically which firearms that he/she was permitted to seize and evaluate. Not that they would find anything other than a well-used, well-maintained firearm which had never been used to commit a crime.

I really don't think micro-stamping will compromise performance. You guys are always concerned about things that aren't likely to happen.

how authoritarian of you.

Although I can hear some of you guys trying that excuse.

with a legal, OEM part is not "circumventing the law". No matter how you attempt to tap-dance around it.

If you guys weren't always looking for a way to violate the spirit and intent of the law, it wouldn't be necessary to have tough laws. I'm convinced that if you allow carriers to tote grenades, they will. They are that irrational.

"Cache" vs collection

"Drool over these weapons"

Do you ever post anything without an intended insult?

And can't understand what a "armoury" is.

But he thinks it sounds "evil".

What a maroon!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

That would be "maroon" for the 97% who don't feel the need for a crutch tucked down their pants in public.

Used to work in an armory.

But you don't know,or care to know. They sound scary and that is all you believe you need to know.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

she has in just one thread.

So, far less than 1% for a similar technology.

Microstamping incurs significant cost as well, and as the weapon is used, the stamp degrades. (Also fairly useless for revolvers, since shells are only ejected upon reload, and the FBI shows most criminal use of a firearm involves less than 3 shots fired.

Micro-stamping and registering Ammo would combat that, BUT, the stamps rarely survive impact, and the costs/regulatory overhead DWARF ballistic fingerprinting.

Personally, I'm fine if it promotes revolvers. Toters who need semi-autos with hi-cap mags are just begging for a gun fight.

Getting the stamp on the firing pin component is just a small part of the cost.

I see no reason for gunners to oppose such legislation. . . . . . . Unless they are afraid they might shoot the wrong person and need to run/hide, or they might want to sell their gun for top dollar to someone who can't pass a background check or wants a gun quickly, makes a few bucks as a straw buyer, etc.


Here's more info that places cost as low as $0.50 per gun. I'll send two quarters to you if you need it for you next purchase.

http://www.nycrimecommission.org/initiative1-microstamping.php

Some other good info in this report. I know, you guys don't want anyone being able to track a gun used in a crime, so please don't throw up a bunch of NRA, right wing talking points.

And also the increase in ammo price, as reloads will no longer be viable, with pre-stamped brass leading to false investigations.

As to costs of the registry system, well, Canada has something like 1/10th the number of guns we have, or less.

The registry again became a political issue in the early 2000s when massive cost overruns were reported.

In December 2002, the Auditor-General of Canada, Sheila Fraser, reported that the project was running vastly above initial cost estimates. The report shows that the implementation of the firearms registry program by the Department of Justice has had significant strategic and management problems throughout. Taxpayers were originally expected to pay only $2 million of the budget while registration fees would cover the rest. In 1995, the Department of Justice reported to Parliament that the system would cost $119 million to implement, and that the income generated from licensing fees would be $117 million. This gives a net cost of $2 million. At the time of the 2002 audit, the revised estimates from the Department of Justice were that the cost of the program would be more than $1 billion by 2004/05 and that the income from licence fees in the same period would be $140 million.

They charge 80$ per gun user, and those fees cover less than 1/5th the total cost of their gun registry, and that registry covers less than 1/10th the number of guns in the US, and it only tracks make/model/serial number, not the additional data point of firing pin stamp number, which would have additional costs to verify.

It's simply a list of numbers put in a file right along side the serial number which is already kept.

The $80 in Canada is for a license. Hardly the same as adding one little number/identifier to computer records that are already maintained.

It doesn't. Not even close. We don't have a registry at all. Requiring this stamp would also necessitate a registry. Otherwise, they couldn't really track it, could they?

Registration of the weapon, with microstamp, is going to require additional manpower and equipment over the cost of the registry in Canada. It is not just 'one more column in a database'.

Say, do any other countries use this technology, so we can see the actual cost in practice?

The Canadian registry was supposed to be 'cheap' too.
You ignore the equipment cost to register these weapons for a stamp that cannot be read by the naked eye.
You ignore the ammo cost for the loss of recycled brass.

We are only talking about adding one more little bit of info -- not checking background, issuing licenses/permits and all the other stuff included in Canada.

As to cost of brass -- maybe you and others need to stop shooting so much.

Don't think I don't notice.

Are you for those? We'd know where everyone is at all times, can you imagine how many murders and other serious crimes could be solved? Surely you're for that, being so interested in cutting down on crime.

You appear to have a problem with that. Why?

I will have been the shooter, and I will have called the police after the shooting, to advise them of my lawful use of a firearm to defend either myself, a loved, one or my property. I will also have contacted an attorney to represent my legal interests as soon as I got off the phone with police.

You seem to have a problem with that. why?

which makes it easier to identify where it came from.

Maryland's experiment with "ballistic fingerprinting" ended with no crimes solved after several years. Apparently, your hope for a 1% success rate is unrealistically optimistic.

microstamping marks the primer when the firing pin strikes it.

In Maryland, the effectiveness of their ballistic fingerprinting project over 5 years was 0.00% Not that magic 1-2% that you're clicking your heels together and hoping for.

Why the fear of having a few cases tracked back to the guy who bought the gun and shot someone, had it stolen, or (more likely) sold it to some potential criminal in a private sale to make a buck (without giving a chit what the buyer would do with it)?

What is your problem with that?

Only in your fevered delusional imaginations.

Oh, and see this:



http://www.brasscatchers.com/store/brasscatcher.html#Anchor-59125

Duh.

wrong.

At least you are consistent.

Got that definition yet?

so you need to define the parameters of your term.

So far you have failed to do so.

That is very dishonest of you; you are not debating in good faith. Easy to fix, should you desire to do so.

yup

That way when you are in an accident and those pieces break off we can track them to you. Imagine all of the hit and run accidents that will be solved. It will work. Let's do it.

would benefit society just as much if not more - in an era of school cuts, why not spend the money there?

Maybe when the cost goes up a bit -- like cigarettes -- you guys will cut back in your endless search for the ultimate weapon. My bet is, you'll come up with the money to buy another one.

yup

1) I take my semi-auto to the range
2) I fire 150 rounds
3) I police the brass and put it into the appropriate container
4) Someone comes in behind me and takes a few handfuls of empty brass
5) They sell that empty brass to a bad guy
6) Bad guy goes out and shoots someone with a revolver
7) Bad guy drops the brass he bought which was lifted from the range
8) Cops come knocking on my door wanting to know what I was doing in a housing project at 1:30 a.m. the previous day
9) I get arrested because I wasn't there, but at home watching Americas Most Wanted but no one can attest to it
10) I go to jail because my spent brass which was illegally sold to a bad guy says I was where I wasn't
11) I spend all kinds of money on a lawyer to get off
12) Jury believes I actually was there when I wasn't because it was my brass the cops found
13) I go to jail for a crime I didn't commit

Bad idea, bad law, does nothing to stop crime.

Explain to me why I should support this?!

You guys are really paranoid and that should be part of background check.

it's NOT worth the cost, and it will happen if this stupid proposal becomes law.

Can't wait to hear your response -- Dance.

get assaulted annually if they weren't allowed to carry?

If that's too hard to understand have the "help" explain it to you.

You guys could learn something from them.

Did you give the servant's the day off? Or just the afternoon? When your personal ass wiper shows up in the morning you can ask him.

and you read about them every day in the newspaper.

You can bet that none of the people that were attacked ever felt that when they left their home they would be a victim. Few people (if any) have the ability to predict the future and I am not one of them.

I have no problem if you don't carry a weapon for self defense as that is your decision. If you happened to be in the same location that I was and we paused to have a conversation, you would have nothing to fear from me. Unless you are VERY familiar with what to look for, you would never suspect that I was carrying a firearm. No one has ever noticed that I carry in over fifteen years and that includes police.

You and I differ. You consider your decision to leave your house unarmed as an example of your intelligence and to a degree your bravery.

I view my decision to leave my home carrying a snub nosed revolver as an example of the fact that I'm not foolish enough to think of myself as invincible and I face life with a desire to be prepared as best I can for whatever it chooses to throw at me. I don't go looking for trouble and I do my best to avoid any encounters by using situational awareness (which in modern society means I don't go around with a cell phone glued to my ear).

However, I am good with statistics and I do realize that the chances of my ever having to use a firearm for legitimate self defense are slim especially since I am alert to my surroundings. But I invested the time, effort and the expense to get a concealed carry license because I intended to carry a firearm and I intend to get my moneys worth. Therefore I carry rather than leave my weapon behind in a lock box when I walk out the door. The S&W Model 642 I carry is extremely light and when I head out, I just grab it and its holster and drop them into my pants pocket.

with zero police presence to safeguard them with guns?

keep your guns in your pants. You aren't trained -- or accountable -- to handle such things. No amount of shooting paper targets, viewing videos, listening to some instructor and practicing in front of a mirror is going to prepare you to respond in a crowd in a situation that will likely be over in 5 seconds. The cowboy mentality displayed by too many carriers is one of the main reasons I'm against packing in public. It's also laughable.

"The cowboy mentality displayed by too many carriers..."

No more so than the "intolerant temperance mentality" is by those that oppose it.

I think we are as well trained as can be expected

yup

I reload so i try to police as much of my brass as possible but there is still no way I can get 100% of my brass picked up. As someone said up-thread, it would be real easy for someone to be framed by picking up their brass at a range and planting it at a crime scene.

I just don't think criminals are going to hang out at a firing range (unless they are a supposed "law abiding" member).

You guys have been watching too many crime shows.

ive seen people show up just to pick up brass. Ive seen people show up and shoot not to hit targets, but because they want the brass. No one would even see it as odd if someone came up to pick up some brass. It would throw any leo off the trail

Yup

For starters, anyone intent on framing someone else for a crime can then dump a few rounds of spent brass from the local range at the scene. Instant "evidence" that you did something you have nothing to do with.

Lets ban these...





(using anti-gun logic)

Their ONLY use is to deface firing pins...

*snort..

It doesn't exist in a commercially viable form.

yup

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within as few as 10 firings, the microstamp code on the firing pin is compromised and the resulting imprint may not be able to be discerned. I hate to break it to you but when I go to the range, I fire at least 100 rounds down-range and often more.

Further, as cited above, the technology is easily defeated in 10 minutes by the use of a sharpening stone or emory cloth. I'm neither a criminal, a terrorist, nor a moron, and I oppose this technology as it is as useful as tits on a tomcat.

Only a moran would support a technology being mandated which is so utterly useless.

a person who wants to use a firearm for criminal activity will use an older semi-auto without the technology or will change or file the firing pin. Or he may simply choose to use a revolver!

It would make far more sense to better enforce existing laws, but unfortunately this would cost the state money. A law is just a bunch of words on paper and is dirt cheap. Politicians love to appear to be doing something to address a problem and it will be years before the statistics will prove the law was a waste of time.

Of course, it is possible that manufacturers will simply refuse to produce firearms with the technology and will not sell firearms in New York State. They might also make a few to sell in New York state that would cost much more than the same firearm without the technology.

from buying another one, so let's don't worry about the manufacturers who have been pandering to the baser instincts of the gun obsessed for far too long.

Unfortunately, even if it only cost me a box of ammo it would be a waste of money.

Some fool might come up with a plan requiring every firearm made to have text stamped on the frame that said, "This firearm is not to be used for criminal purposes." I would also oppose this idea as it would be another "feel good" law that would accomplish nothing.

If it is such a great idea, why isn't the law implemented in California? It was supposed to start on January 1, 2010.

If it helps catch one criminal -- or makes one criminal spend extra time looking for spent casings -- it is worth it. It ain't gonna hurt anything if the owner is really "law abiding."

that doesn't work.

The flip side is, if one INNOCENT person goes to jail because someone planted their brass, is it still worth it?

The problem with wanna-be politicians, and politicians in general is, they can't see past the end of their nose to what's called "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

Or just your knee jerk reaction any time guns are involved?

The guns don't exist so it doesn't matter. The owner can't be law abiding because it makes the guns illegal.

yup

was used to help law enforcement on the street a bunch of criminals could be caught.

From the passage from AB1471 quoted in spin's post above:

Said technology does not, at present, meet those requirements. NanoTag™ is sold by a single vendor, who is unwilling to share the patent.

yup

What's the problem?

but then I only sell my used firearms to people I personally know and who have a valid Florida concealed weapons permit.

Why don't you join me in trying to do something really useful such as getting behind the idea of opening up the NICS background check for all private sales?

and the transfer does not involve the serial number of the firearm being used by the federal government for a de facto registration system.

I have been looking through the text of a Senate bill S.436 and it appears to set up such a system.

The text is at http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s112-436.



Sounds like a plan to me.

This is a de facto ban

the unquenchable demand created by those obsessed with guns.

and a few others here like you.

That have to be stuffed down the front of our pants in order to leave the house . I always figured the stuffing part would take a good 15 minutes or better .

First of all for this system to work there would need to be a gun registration process. No such database or process exists on a national level. The technology itself is easily defeated. In the end this technology would not be worth a damn. It's amusing that so many people think that all criminals are stupid.

It seems to me that the only reason this is supported by those supporting is that it would open the door to the next argument. That of course is that we must have a registration database for this to work right. The only other reason I can glean from the posts of the supporters of this retardation is that it would make firearms ownership that much more expensive and that much more difficult. So in the end like many other measures this one boils down to making ownership of firearms that much more oppressive.

If you are serious about putting a dent in violent crime. Stop going after gun owners. Go after those who create a system of crushing poverty in this nation. Go after those who seem to think we as Americans only need enough education to be able to operate a cash register at a burger joint. End this atrocity which is our drug policy. There is a good start.

...as they have the sole patent on this technology and are disinclined to share it.


Advocacy of corporate welfare and the expansion of the national security state- can someone explain to us again why

gun control is 'progressive'?

1. There are currently more than 100 million handguns without this feature.
2. This feature can be removed by anyone in less than ten minutes.
3. This feature "removes" itself with very little use.
4. It is not possible to prove that the feature was removed or "removed" itself.
5. Good Guys do not wipe down their cartridges or wear gloves when loading magazines - leaving a very clear partial thumbprint on every casing and even more fingerprints on magazines.
6. Smart Bad Guys wipe down their cartridges and wear gloves when loading magazines - leaving no fingerprints on the casings or discarded magazines. They are also smart enough to do #2.
7. Dumb Bad Guys act like Good Guys in #5 and are not smart enough to do #2 leaving excellent evidence to identify themselves.

Microstamping simply has no merit.

Semper Fi,

Millions of $$$ will be wasted like their other programs that do nothing. It will do zero to promote public safety and will have no effect on crime at all.