Texas approves concealed handguns in public universities

Source: Guardian

Texas approves concealed handguns in public universities
Republicans in state senate pass 'self-defence' measure despite resistance from higher education officials

Associated Press
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 10 May 2011 08.21 BST

The holders of concealed handgun licences are set to be allowed to carry weapons into public college buildings and classrooms in Texas, after Republicans in the state senate approved the measure as part of a universities spending bill.

Republican senator Jeff Wentworth had been unable to gain the votes he needed to pass the issue as its own bill after it met stiff resistance from higher education officials, particularly from within the University of Texas UT-System.

The senate's 12 Democrats had mostly worked together to block the measure but were powerless to stop it on Monday when a majority in the 31-member chamber got it added to the spending bill as an amendment.

Supporters hope the vote will help push the measure past a roadblock in the house, where a similar bill has been stuck without a vote in that chamber with just a few weeks left in the legislative term.



Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/10/texas-concealed-handguns-public-universities

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http://dianedimond.net.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/JeffWentworthTexas.jpg

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And how is a 21-year-old employee or faculty member at a college or university different from a 21-year-old who works somewhere else?

All things considered, this could be good....If no one wants to go to Texas public colleges, they can be shut down, saving lots of money and putting thousands of people out of work....

There are plenty of qualified Texas kids who want to go to our universities

Look up which states allow concealed carry on their college campuses and let us know how enrollment is.

But i see no problem with this guys. n/t

I never get the old, "I'm sorry, but..." argument.

If you are for it, say it.

Personally speaking, this is enough for me not to go back to school here.

That's fine. The person who replaces you will be equally qualified.

LOL

I recall the first major campus shooting was at UT (a guy named Charles White, as I recall). I was going to be snarky and call it the Charles White memorial act. But I must ask, is there is any proof that either the WV shootings, Columbine shootings or even the White shooting could have been either stopped or mitigated with a strapped engineering student. This is nothing more than a political masturbatory action by the NRA and far right.

Because we are just now allowing this to happen. Only time will tell, but CHL holders always respect the law, they have shown it in the past. Why should we expect any difference? You must be 21 years of age to legally obtain a CHL License, and pass the class of course. It's not like a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds will be able to carry them. Lol, there will not be guns in every students bag. Only time will tell.

And Thanks for your input, but with all due respect this is the exact fucking reason Texas and the republicans are the laughing stock of this country.

Anything that would suggest that a CHL holder would do any harm to anyone else without being violently prevoked. Don't worry I'll wait.

http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/concerns-about-concealed-carry/crimes-by-virginia-concealed-handgun-permit-holders

http://www.ichv.org/facts-about-gun-violence/research/

DC–Two Florida concealed handgun permit holders who got into a confrontation and shot and killed each other on a neighborhood street are among the additions and updates to Concealed Carry Killers, a Violence Policy Center (VPC) on-line resource that tallies news reports of killings by concealed handgun permit holders.

Since May 2007, concealed handgun permit holders have killed at least 189 individuals–including nine law enforcement officers–in 26 states. Of the 114 incidents that resulted in the deaths, in more than half (63 incidents) the concealed handgun permit holder has already been convicted, committed suicide after the shooting, or was killed in the incident. Of the 51 cases still pending, the vast majority (44) of concealed handgun permit holders have been charged with criminal homicide, two were deemed incompetent to stand trial, two incidents were unintentional shootings, and three incidents are still under investigation. Of the 114 incidents, 16 were mass shootings where concealed handgun permit holders claimed the lives of 65 victims.

A summary of each of the 114 incidents is available at http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm, clicking on each category leads to a state-by-state breakout for the incidents with current known status. To review all killings by concealed handgun permit holders, click on “Total People Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders.” While the incident summaries of the few concealed handgun permit holders eventually found not guilty of their crimes are listed on the site, those numbers are not included in the VPC’s totals

<much more>

NRA bullshit fail

yup

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which we all know is bullshit

:hi:

Cite to evidence?

duty reserve cop.

But here a link with the kind of documentation you seem to want:

http://www.ichv.org/facts-about-gun-violence/research/

OK?

And another poster provided this link:

http://www.lcav.org/content/carrying_concealed_weapons.pdf

However the telling point is that this was a police officer, no carry permit required.

crimes, including murders, with their guns.

My local even happened years ago, and there are no online records for our little daily. So forget that example.

Now, deal with the others, please.

And PLEASE do not pretend that carry holders are held to a higher standard than police officers. That's just plain dishonest.

And my point actually was that police are (supposedly) held to a higher standard of checks, training and conduct than the general public, yet still seem to have a percentage of failure. My apologies for not being clear.

Out of that many there will be a few, but very few, who will do bad things. But when you compare our rate per capita you will find that CCWers are far better behaved than the general public. Texas publishes their statistics every year. Permit holders in that state are so well-behaved that in 2009 out of over 400,000 permit holders only 109 were convicted of ANY kind of crime including non-violent ones. That is 1/40th of 1%.

Here is a chart comparing our conviction rate to that of the general public. Red are CHL holders, Blue is the general public. We aren't perfect, but we are right next to it.

been convicted. Another poster is on here trying to convince that NO, NOT ONE, EVER, has so much been questioned by spitting on the sidewalk.

Thank you. Some clarity would help.

Where?

Pretty sure you missed some sarcasm or something.

See the rest of him on this thread and see what you think.

He'll probably last a week before his first pizza.

"And PLEASE do not pretend that carry holders are held to a higher standard than police officers. That's just plain dishonest."

No, they're not. But they are held to a higher standard than unlicensed individuals because they have demonstrated at least a minimum competence level and an understanding of the law as relates to the use of deadly force. I'll tell you something else they don't get - A union that will fight on their behalf or the paid legal representation that goes along with that.

YUP

YUP

YUP

You can be sure they've misconstrued it to the maximum possible FUD every time, so it's very easy to dispell their bullshit with their own data.

Federal, State, and Selected Local Gun Laws

http://www.lcav.org/content/carrying_concealed_weapons.pdf

On edit: pdf file

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x413754

bubble

burst

yup

...thus your link fails to even meet the requirements laid out by MrDiaz. What's funny is you could have found a link to an actual violent crime, as they DO happen from time to time by CCW permit holders (though at a much smaller rate than the general population) but you couldn't even manage that.

Seriously, failure just seems to be in your nature....

yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup y

There is no brandishing law in Pa

and tell us how much of a problem it has been in those places. I think you'll have a really hard time finding any problems.

I wonder why.

Every week there is a story about some dumbass CHL permit holder using their guns illegally - brandishing, maiming, murdering etc.

NRA fail

yup

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

An armed citizen accompanied police into the tower.

http://rangerray.net/

On edit: I've got an autographed book.

but there is absolute proof that banning guns on campus didn't prevent those things.

Case in point: all those incidents you reference occurred on campuses that were by law gun-free.

The carriers here have been shooting paper silhouette targets, watching videos, Rambo movies, practicing in front of their mirrors, and daydreaming about it for years. They are more than prepared to assess the situation, respond within a few seconds, place one bullet (or 31 with their hi-cap mags) in the perp without pass through, while "dodging and shooting" (as one cowboy called his rigorous "training").

with the imagination you have and the BS you spew, either that or give miss cleo a run for her money.

weapons. Look it up.

Everybody can pass now!

yup

Ah well.

yup

yup

yup

a lawful concealed carrier on the collage campuses that already allow it? I've asked you many times and been waiting a loooong time now for that incident.

on colleges that already allow for legal concealed carry.


yup

clue - republicons voted for this POS - Dems opposed it.

yup

yup...

It is NOT the right thing to do

NRA fail

yup

Did you have a point?

From back in the '60s

YUP

YUP

YUP

Not to mention that any parent who sends their kid there needs to have their head examined. WTF!

I wonder if a couple of the teachers that died protecting students wished they had a common tool for making bad people go away, or lie down and be still?

That'd have shown that monster what's-what!

and turns 21 in June. He will be getting his concealed carry permit as soon as he takes his class and will be able to and will carry a conceal handgun.

shooting of a member of the Texas University community?

The first student/teacher/police or other person to lose their life?

The first Texas shoot-out between two people, two groups, three, four, or six factions?

Why is something like this which the students and faculty and others who actually ATTEND these colleges vigorously oppose, why is it being shoved onto them, turning their university communities into the O-K Corral? WHY?

yup

is infringing my, or anyone else's , rights, based on arbitrary geographic location. when CHL carriers cross the line to college campuses do you think that they will just immediately go berserk and begin shooting anything that moves?

Why would Texas be any different?

...Why is something like this which the students and faculty and others who actually ATTEND these colleges vigorously oppose...

Nobody is going to be forced to carry a concealed weapon. Everyone has the choice not to do so.

Are they willing to have the kinds of security measures used at airports and courthouses implemented at colleges and universities? I mean X-ray machines, metal detectors, and guards, with all entry points controlled.

Without real security measures, the current prohibition against concealed weapons affects only the people you really don't need to worry about, while the people you SHOULD worry about bring in weapons with impunity because there is nothing to stop them.

I believe that the illusion of security makes you no safer than no security. There is no evidence here that allowing people who are licensed to carry do so on campus would in any way endanger people. There are people quietly carrying weapons legally at shopping malls and parks and on city sidewalks all the time, and they're not causing any real problems.

I oppose boy band music. It still exists, and people are free to listen to it.

Just like I don't 'miss' god.


The other half of your analogy has NOT HAPPENED in schools around the country where this is already policy.

a legislature to accept a policy it fought against?

Oh, wait, that's the part of the analogy your "always right and screw anyone else" brain chose to ignore.

Umm.. ever hear of George Wallace and the University of Alabama?

hint: google "Vivian Malone and James Hood"

Were barred by state law from prohibiting firearms in vehicles on their campuses two years ago.

Colorado and Colorado State universities fought it tooth and nail to no avail.

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Or of students other than the christian faith?

sense and leave out both parts of the debate, substituting something as senseless as doors on a motorcycle in it's place.

You want to lend some credence to what the students and faculty want when they agree with you. I doubt you'd agree with them on other issues.

You posited a situation which has not occurred in any of the dozens of colleges where concealed carry is legal, then tried to buttress it with an argumentum ad populum.

Don't blame me if your argument is used against you. Pick a better one, next time.

You just went into outer space, with your personal insults and ignored the facts and both parts of the premise.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x413810#413836



You posit a situation that has not occurred at any of the campuses where concealed carry by licensed students is currently legal.

Then..



You try to apply an argumentum ad populum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Feel free to construct a valid argument, but 'what-if's and logical fallacies don't actually count.

how does making a campus a gun free zone stop criminals or nut cases from bringing guns on campus?

duh

yup

TSA at Universities? Because that's what it would take. And even that has proven to be... not a perfect barrier.

:rofl:

or, based on your understanding of statistics, probably did not go to college but campus police are not the crack elite police forces you imagine them to be.

Nor do students pass through regular checkpoints and face constant scrutiny by a vast omnipotent police state.

I can't recall the name of the campus officer that valiantly halted the attack early on...

Check out your heroic "Kampus Kops," wandering around yelling at students, waiting for the REAL police to show up while Cho has a half hour to go about killing people in Norris Hall. All the campus police did was set up a perimeter to make sure no one got into the building to stop the killer.

Watch the cell phone video of the last three minutes. Note carefully the urgency and sense of mission displayed by the UNIFORMED CAMPUS POLICE. The stalwart campus cops are milling about with no apparent sense of direction or urgency waiting for the "real" police and occasionally yelling at students to "Get away." Remember, this is hours after Cho shot the students in the dorm room. He left campus to mail his manifesto to NBC news. Then he came back, dressed in "de rigueur" black trenchcoat and backpack, like he came from central casting, and walked past the campus constabulary unnoticed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkrDYR-pd7I

The "blast" you hear is the SWAT team breaching the door. Faced with an armed response Cho killed himself before the REAL police even got to him. Had the campus police entered the building instead of waiting for the city to send REAL cops from town how many might have been saved?

It is not much of an exaggeration to say that you had as much impact on what happened there as those campus cops did.

still will not be able to react in time to help you.

Same thing.

Congratulations Texas on trusting your honest citizens and recognizing our right to self defense.

Semper Fi,

since 1876. we're still waiting for our first. Any day now I'm sure

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7677509

Killer turned belligerent when turned away
By Tom McGhee and Manny Gonzales
The Denver Post
POSTED: 12/09/2007 10:39:26 AM MST
UPDATED: 12/10/2007 03:40:02 PM MST









Gunman legally amassed weaponry in year's time




ARVADA — A man who killed two missionary workers early Sunday had become belligerent after he was denied a chance to stay in a dormitory, then pulled a handgun and opened fire.

Tiffany Johnson, 26, and Philip Crouse, 24, died after being taken to area hospitals. Two others were wounded.

The shootings on the Faith Bible Chapel campus near West 64th Avenue and Ward Road were followed hours later by an attack on members of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where one man was killed and four others injured by a man with a rifle. A security staffer killed that gunman, whose identity had not been released Sunday evening.

The killings in Arvada followed a night of celebration by the young people training to be missionaries,




Read more: Killer turned belligerent when turned away - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7677509#ixzz1LxkT4wbE
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

As a matter of fact it's not even a college it's a missonary training center. Oh and BTW the shooter mentioned in your story was the same guy the was put down later that day at New Life Church by a citizen w/ a CHP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Life_Church_(Colorado_Springs,_Colorado)

On December 9, 2007, a gunman opened fire in the New Life Church, striking four people and killing two. Jeanne Assam, a church security volunteer, shot and wounded the gunman who then killed himself.<10>

The gunman, identified as Matthew Murray age 24, was formerly a missionary-in-training with Youth With A Mission and was from a deeply Christian family.<11>

About the shooting, Jeanne Assam said, "I just prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me. I said, 'Holy Spirit, please be with me...' My hands weren’t even shaking." <12> Assam's shots were non-fatal. The Coroner’s report identified that the fatal shot was self inflicted.<13> Police found a letter from the shooter addressed "To God".<14>

At a congregational recovery meeting three days after the shooting, Boyd told parishioners they "will not be governed by fear."<15> Boyd appeared with Jeanne Assam on a host of media appearances following the tragedy.<16> On April 17, 2008, the Colorado State Senate honored Jeanne Assam passing a resolution calling her a "true hero".<17>

lol

Keep trying.

staff member, or faculty member. He was finally stopped by an armed staff member, not law enforcement or security officers.

Lives were saved by the armed staffer. That were no armed staffers, faculty, or students at Virginia Tech.

Semper Fi,

No matter how many times yall make that prediction it is still funny.

that I am aware of. If there are some, you are free to post them.

Every time there is any kind of advance in RKBA rights you antis scream that we are turning that part of the country into the Wild West. The measure passes and nothing happens. But that doesn't stop your side from going into the same histrionics the next time.

concealed carry on their campuses. Report back all of the problems that have occured on those campuses. I think it's going to take you a while to find any.

Until my toddler is able to carry to his pre-school, we will not truly be free.

Or are you just advocating that s/he just carry a gun instead. And here I thought gun owners were all in favor for keeping firearms from toddlers. I guess you are not.

literally shaking with rage as they argue with me for giving them grades lower than what they believe themselves to be "entitled" to.

Some will slam the office door, some will sweep papers off my desk as they storm out of the room. Obviously, I take steps to persuade them to drop my course if they cannot accept being graded according to honest standards.

But I am quite certain that at least a couple of them would have impulsively drawn a gun on me if they had been carrying one at the time. You have no idea how pissed a young man can get if he thinks he deserves an "A"--or at least a "B"--and you have not given him the grade he thinks he deserves!

One young man actually said to me back in the 1980s, "I know where you and your children live."

I really, really would hate to see this sort of law in Kansas, where I teach!

Serious question.

For your information, very few 21-yr-olds get CHLs. The peak demographic for first-time issue is in the 50s.

...your imagination is running away with you. Don't know what you teach but it certainly isn't statistics or a scientific discipline. If you did you'd at least be able to comprehend the vanishingly small percentage of students who have a CCW that would be inclined to carry to class with any sort of regularity.

It is a rider to a must-pass education finance bill. And the Republican have a super-majority and don't need any Democratic help. They can shove what they want through over complete opposition. The recently voted to suspend normal rules of parlimentary procedure to get bills voted on quickly.

University campuses are not guarded. Which is good and necessary. But it also means that it's pretty easy for someone committed to mayhem to carry a gun onto them.

That is illegal, of course. And for the most part, will remain illegal. Open carry is not allowed in Texas.

And it also is one of the tougher states for acquiring a CCP, requiring a proficiency exam as well as written exam.

:hippie:

I put a thread up months ago about this subject, and its yet to get a relevant example of problems elsewhere.