Law Allows Guns on School Grounds

http://www.ktul.com/story/14637617/laws-allow-guns-on-school-grounds

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So even though the sign says in front of the school it's a drug free and gun free zone, you can still bring your loaded gun onto a K-12 campus.

"You have to keep it in your car you can not leave your car it has to be completely contemporaneous with dropping your child off or picking your child up," says Sergeant Brian Hill with the Tulsa Police Department.

So, let's get this straight. You can bring a gun into a school zone, if and only if you are licensed and you stay in the car with the weapon. If you get out of the car you can be arrested. If you carry it out of the car you can be arrested.

Burns says the whole thing is new to her and she has her concealed carry license. She agrees, if you have to bring your gun to school don't leave it unattended.

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This should have been the case all along.

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Many states are addressing it. Virginia did a few years ago with a very similar law.

I notice these threads are allows getting flamed with the NRA lobby.

the situation is way out of control.

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....why debate issues on a forum about political issues when you can just stop in, be insulting and ignorant, and head on out again. Yeah, that makes sense!

And your name calling is noted.

Are you not smart enough to click a link?

I don't think you understand the terminology you're using.

Like - unable to take their child to school without "packing".

I think this is just a transition. The goal, of course, is unlimited and unrestricted gun access.

As it should be

well - let me restate that.

It is NOT in the best interest of the community at large.

on the way to/from school?

Are you going to volunteer to play security guard?

If you can't guarantee the personal safety of people in public (because it is an impossible task) then how can you justify removing the best ability for people to defend themselves? It's a perspective shift that people that are against CCW need to try and make sometime.

No 2A-restrictor has ever answered it directly and honestly, and none has ever volunteered. Pretty telling, IMNSHO.

then how can you justify the needless carrying of a gun onto school grounds.

The assumption is that by my carrying a gun legally I am automatically a serious hazard to the safety of all those around me. This is simply not the case, and the statistics have born this out. There is no moral obligation to make people feel better in regards to their irrational fears, however there is one to allow people a means of defending themselves effectively.

carrying a gun - even while dropping their child off at school.

Most unimpressive.

...but it is not one that I have.

at Columbine?

Gun free zones only ensure a shooting gallery.

as you enter school grounds, as well as support the right of others to enter school grounds, with a gun.

..that show your fears are unreasonable and unwarranted?

There is a HUGE difference between being afraid of something and being PREPARED for something. I keep a shovel in my car during the winter in case I get stuck in the snow, but does that mean I live in fear of being stuck in the snow? No. Would I BE afraid if I was attacked by a criminal and needed to defend myself? Hell yes, but do I live in fear of that event? No. I've simply taken steps that will allow me to more effectively deal with that situation should it arise.

You're just going to ignore it. Yep, makes for a great discussion.

fuel guage malfunctions?

Do you carry a chain saw in case a tree has fallen and the road is blocked?

Do you carry a gallon of water in case your car breaks down and you have to walk an extended distance?

Do you carry some electical tape in case of a broken wire?

Is so, I am duly impressed.

If not, aren't these more likely to occur than encountering someone with ill intent in mind, on your way to drop your child off at school?

As for more likely than encountering somebody with ill intent, while statistically that may be the case, my personal experience has shown differently. I have never run out of gas, needed the water I keep in the car in an emergency, or the electrical tape I keep, but I have had a criminal shoot at my car. In that case I was able to speed away with only minimal damage to my vehicle and, much more importantly, nobody hurt. But had I been unable to drive away, the situation may have been much different. Thus, I choose to be prepared for THAT circumstance as well.

a tool box, a welder, half a bag of mineral supplement, fencing pliers, a post driver, and a rifle in the "up in back rifle rack" of pickup. So I shouldn't pick up my grandkids after school and take them home because I have a gun in a farm truck?

for the safety of the students (in case that needed to be spelled out)

..and usually when they are in one of the gun free zones, it's in the hand of somebody looking to do a great deal of harm, and because of the restrictions you support, nobody is there on site with a solid chance at stopping them.

Both of those occurred in so-called "gun free" zones, leaving the victims completely helpless and defenseless.

but . . . was of no help in preventing any deaths or injuries.

He was inside the store.

in the lot during hunting season that didn't have a gun in it. Opening day of deer season, school was closed, only half the girls would have been there anyway. All my teacher's were World War 2 vets. Guns in school were not a problem. The school had a rifle range. Guns were a non issue. The biggest danger to the students was being sent to the principal's office and grabbing your ankles while the assistant principal wielded the "Board of Education." (That or eating the "concrete chip cookies" my sister made in Home Ec.)

Taking swats from the teacher was in all aspects preferable to having the principal call your father.

things change, people change

Back then, this probably never happened. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x405440

But - it does now.

Bath Unified School massacre, May 18th, 1927. 55-year-old school board member Andrew Kehoe, distraught over his farm’s impending failure which he blamed on school taxes, bludgeoned his wife to death, killed his livestock and girdled his trees, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, Kehoe drove his truck to the school.

He used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. The explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many elementary schoolchildren. The blast from the first bombs in the elementary wing blew apart the wiring on the bombs he’d set in the secondary school wing, sparing many of the older children — he’d intended his death toll to be in the hundreds, wiping out a whole generation of the town’s children.

As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, feigning to be a spectator, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his shrapnel-filled vehicle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During rescue efforts searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing.

This remains the worst intentional school massacre in U.S. history; not a single person was killed by gunfire! Thirty-eight of the victims were elementary school children in the second to sixth grades (7–12 years of age). Two teachers, four other adults, the bomber himself, and at least 58 people were injured.



"...things change, people change..."

The change is you likely never heard of Bath Township. Kehoe doesn't have a Facebook page like the bastards from Columbine or Virginia Tech do. Every wacko loser wanting to be "film at eleven" is assured he will be. Hell, Cho even took the time after the first murders to leave the campus at Virginia Tech and go to town to mail his manifesto to NBC news before he came back to Norris Hall.

Being raised with the quaint notions of right and wrong, being constantly reminded that character is doing the right thing EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS WATCHING seems to have kept us from shooting each other when our schools were full of guns. What keeps you from torturing little animals? What keeps you from shortchanging a blind man? Do you cheat at at solitaire?

Most criminality is a choice. It is a conscious decision to engage in predatory and antisocial behavior. Poverty makes people poor, it does not make them criminals. One wag suggested that you don't see Harvard grads holding up liquor stores.

Theodore Roosevelt observed a century ago, "A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education he may steal the whole railroad."

In either case, it is an overblown sense of entitlement that compels a teenage thug to stab another kid to death for an iPod or a Bernie Madoff to scam investors for millions. They both have one thing in common, an absolute unshakable belief that the norms of society to not apply to them. As far as they are concerned, "Everybody is above the law until they get caught."

Fuel guage malfunction - Fill car at half a tank. Always have an idea of about how far car has driven since last fill-up. I would quickly spot a fuel guage problem.

Chain saw for fallen tree? Better solution is a GPS to route me around such problems. It can also route me around construction zones and traffic tie-ups.

Water? Yes, two liters. The car is an old one, 1995 Saturn, and sometimes needs additional coolant.

Electrical tape? Yes, in a small emergency tool box.

Also carry:

Cell phone - on my person. Of course most people do that now.

Fire extinguisher. Over my life I have used it twice to help others. Once I kept a car's flames suppressed while the mother got her baby out of the baby seat. No personal heroics involved as I was never in danger, but I am rather pleased with myself for being able to help save the baby's life.

You make a false assumption. You assume that a person goes from home to school and back. Often people make other stops, combining errands to save on gas and time. Since trouble never makes appointments many of us carry all the time, everywhere. We who have CHLs present no danger to the general public. Your fear of us is irrational.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x405440

I think the irrational fear lies with those who think they cannot function in life without a gun.

Do you carry a gallon of gas in your trunk in case you run out or your fuel guage malfunctions?

No but I do carry an empty gas can

Do you carry a chain saw in case a tree has fallen and the road is blocked?

No, there aren't many trees along the roadway in El Paso, TX

Do you carry a gallon of water in case your car breaks down and you have to walk an extended distance?

Yes because it is 80+ starting in May in El Paso all the way thru OCT and up to 110

Do you carry some electical tape in case of a broken wire? Yes

And I have a CCL and carry daily because I live within 1 mile of the Mexican border and the most dangerous city in the world, Juarez Mexico

It's not my job to provide you security. My ONLY obligation is not to negligently or recklessly endanger you. If a group of criminals decided to roast you alive in the middle of Wrigley Field I have absolutely no legal obligation or duty to intervene.

If I filmed it all to post on You Tube, and should the authorities ask me for it, I have done my civic duty by responding to their subpoena.

I do not carry a gun to protect you, and even when I carried a gun under oath, you weren't included.

I am asking you to guarantee NO ACCIDENTS with your weapon.

Can you guarantee that?

No matter how many people may be helped, you demand a 100% error free environment, which isn't possible.

You know what's really interesting is that I've never seen a story posted here about a CCW permit holder having a firearm related accident on a school campus. I have, however, seen several stories of police officers having such accidents.

and we don't need those accidents on school property

...than your chances of being illegally or accidentally shot by a CCW holder.

about a month ago.

2 resulted in deaths, and one was the drunk brandishing his weapon on school property.

Those were only the ones that threads were started for. No idea how many more there were.

Nope - CCW-holders are not as responsible or safe as claimed here.

With that many of us find one or two a week won't be hard. But the rate is still very low. How well are the guns-free zones working out?

In fact, every school shooting has been in a gun free zone. I would say they aren't working well. But some school shootings have been stopped by armed citizens.

"summer of the shark", anyone?

If you want to see how many times CHL holders in Texas are convicted of a crime, I have the graph and the link..



http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

For example, in 2009 there were 101 convictions for any crime by a CHL holder (of 402,914)- that's 0.025% or 1/40th of one percent.

That would be 1 every 5 days or so. DEATHS - not injuries.

http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/09/30-1

Annualized that is about 65 per year. The average number of people with CCWs during those years was about 8 million. There are about 10 million now, but there has been a large increase in CCWs in the past two years. 65/8,000,000 = .0000081 Death rates are given as deaths per 100,00 so we multiply by that. .0000081 X 100,000 = .81 for the death rate.
Now lets look at the FBI data for the US: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/index.html

Violent crime rate: There were an estimated 429.4 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009.

Murder rate for the general population was 5.1 per 100,000 in 2009. So at .81 we are far safer that the average person you will meet on the street.

And crimes committed without guns (Tony Villegas)? And crimes committed by people without concealed carry permits? (Richard Vithya Tauch) And children who kill themselves with their parent's gun? (Zacharia Nesbitt)..

I'd think you'd want to find actual statistics, rather than rely on shit from the VPC.

During those same years armed citizens killed 636 felons, ruled justified homicide. The felons were in the actual process of committing a felony at the time they were killed.

Further, many of those 202 we suicides or the weapon used was not a gun. Having a CCW or the lack thereof would have no bearing on a murder committed with a knife or club or bare hands or poison or...etc.

So armed citizens are saving more lives that are being taken. If you take those guns away then those 636 violent felons will be alive and free and will certainly kill more than 202 innocent citizens. But you don't care about that do you?

Homicide statistics are from the FBI.

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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x405440

an example of ccw-holder behavior.

and drunk to boot

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...either in the car or on you. You can even get out of the car while still armed, just don't go inside the building. If there is an outdoor activity, such as brand practice on the football field, then you can't go armed to that. Basically you can be in the parking lot or walkway to the building. It isn't any big deal.

I can swing by and pick up the kids without going home, storing the LCP in a safe first. It's a huge time saver...not to mention it's much easier to comply with the law and remain armed.

As for attending events I always store my pistol at home because most of us don't like leaving our arms unsecured in a vehicle while we're away.

without clothes.

But - off to school to pick up your kids requires you get dressed - even though it takes a little bit of time to do so.

Convenience is no alternative to the safety of the students.

and to a person who wished to harm the students, a "No-Guns" sign would merely be an invitation.

Do you seriously believe that a law forbidding firearms in an designated area has ever stopped a shooter?

without worry of breaking the law.

and the rest of the students are safer.

Texans have been doing that for years and nothing has happened. Your fears are overblown.

you mean folks like this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x405440

He changed EVERYTHING !

Guess I can't blame you. Way too many examples to the contrary.

There is little one could do to further the right of self defense after that happened . I am afraid I will just have to give it up .

I now carry my balls , in my purse , instead .

You want to use the rare bad ones to condemn all 10 million of us. In Texas there are about 460,000 CHL holders. In 2009 there were only 109 convictions for crimes of any sort, including nonviolent crimes.

In a world in which there are no guarantees, that is about as close as you can get. Remember that the guns-free policy worked so well at VT didn't it - NOT.

I even carried my .357 on a field trip to Crater Lake as a chaperon on my 5th grade brother's field trip. The sky has not fallen.

Did the school know about the gun? Or did you just do it?

Guy should have secured the gun before getting out. He was stupid.