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FBI reports 5.5% decline in violent crime in 2010!!!!! With RECORD gun sales......

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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:21 AM
Original message
FBI reports 5.5% decline in violent crime in 2010!!!!! With RECORD gun sales......
Seems like more guns does not equal more violent crime. Great news and also great news for Conceal Carry holders. Seems like with even more and more CCW holders, crime is declining!!!

Violent crimes in the U.S. dropped 5.5% last year, and property crimes also fell, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said Monday.

There were declines in all four categories of violent crime: murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault.

The FBI said violent crime fell 7.5% in the South, 5.9% in the Midwest, 5.8% in the West and 0.4% in the Northeast.

<snip>

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304520804576341210813295854.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. The National Academy of Sciences begs to differ
No correlation between guns and crime

fail

yup
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Please list your source. If you have one! :-)
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Here ya go
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Way to misrepresent the study's findings!
Tell me, jpak, is it a reading-comprehension issue; or are you one of those who would rather climb up a tree and tell a lie, rather than stand on the ground and tell the truth?
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Hit and run posting. Common here. n-t
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. You are citing one of your threads as a source?
:rofl:
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
63. So then you admit all your threads about guns making things worth have no rational basis?
Thanks!


Bookmarking!
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. How difficult is it for you to provide a link ...
You say "No correlation between guns and crime" while Logical posts "Seems like more guns does not equal more violent crime".

To me it sounds like you both are agreeing with each other. Note that Logical DID NOT say more guns equals less crime.

A link would enable me to decide for myself just what The National Academy of Sciences said.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. You Fall Upon The Double Edged Sword
The study actually disproves your opinon too!

In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences conducted a study on firearms and violent crime and concluded:

1. There is no credible evidence that "right-to-carry" laws, which allow qualified adults to carry concealed handguns, neither decrease or increase violent crime.

Committee member James Q. Wilson, accepted the committee's findings on violent crime in general, however, he noted that the committee's own findings in several tests showed "that shall-issue laws drive down the murder rate".

2. There is almost no evidence that violence-prevention programs intended to steer children away from guns have had any effects on their behavior, knowledge, or attitudes regarding firearms.

3. Research has found associations between gun availability and suicide with guns, but it does not show whether such associations reveal genuine patterns of cause and effect.



yup yup!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. Um, this trend has been ongoing for decades
and has about as much to do with CCW as the price of corn. But you knew that. :eyes:
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. But YOU know that, yet continue to make drive-by posts that claim otherwise.
Since we BOTH know that CCW and legal gun ownership is NOT the problem, why can we not work TOGETHER and tackle what the real problem is?
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. BUT more guns DOES NOT equal more violent crime. And many here act like it does!!! n-t
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. ummm
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Not even close. Nice try. n-t
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Peer reviewed academic studies - on target
bullseye

yup
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. Peer reviewed academic studies...
....that prove the point that there is no solid evidence to support that firearm ownership rates impact the crime rate, which is exactly what the OP and just about all of us pro RKBA folks have been saying for a long time now.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Nope - post after post have proclaimed that more guns = less crime
yup
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. Maybe in fantasy land...
....but not here. I know there are a handful of people hear that have said that, but just about all the posts from the pro RKBA folks here have said that there is no evidence that more/less guns = more/less crime.

Your statement is such a gross exaggeration that it may cross the line into out and out dishonesty. Why though? What do you think you have to gain from it?
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #39
56. More like bullshit....
yup

yup

yup
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. ummmmmm
What were you trying to say here?

Obviously the mods didn't think you were being quite honest with your post.

The moderators on duty have determined by consensus that this message does not meet Democratic Underground's community standards. This message will remain hidden from public view until it is edited by the member who posted it. The member may also choose to self-delete the message.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. While it is impossible to prove, CCW may have caused a drop in the violent crime rate ...
Criminals fear armed citizens far more than they do police.


Professors James D. Wright and Peter Rossi of the Social and Demographic Research Institute at the University of Massachusetts conducted a study in 1982 and 1983 paid for by the U.S. Department of Justice. (Professor Rossi was a former President of the American Sociological Association.) The researchers interviewed 1,874 imprisoned felons in ten states.

***snip***

A 1986 review of the professors’ work, Armed and Considered Dangerous, by Raymond G. Kessler of the Department of Criminal Justice of Memphis State University, concluded, “Although Armed and Considered Dangerous is not free of methodological problems, it is the best policy-oriented study of criminals and their guns available. Gun control proposals that seemed relatively straight-forward a few years ago must now be reconsidered.”

Wright and Rossi reported that:
81% of interviewees agreed that a “smart criminal” will try to determine if a potential victim is armed.
74% indicated that burglars avoided occupied dwellings, because of fear of being shot.
57% said that most criminals feared armed citizens more than the police.
40% of the felons said that they had been deterred from committing a particular crime, because they believed that the potential victim was armed.
57% of the felons who had used guns themselves said that they had encountered potential victims who were armed.
34% of the criminal respondents said that they had been scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed citizen.
emphasis added

Based on this government-funded research by Wright and Rossi, it would appear that armed citizens do have a deterrent effect on crime.
http://defmech.blogivists.com/2009/01/29/gun-control-research-wright-and-rossi-armed-citizens-deter-criminals/
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Gas prices also went up. More guns equals higher gas prices!
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. When we see local gun shot deaths rising weekly and more
police officers apparently under seige. Then we
see other cities in other states with similar situations
I question where they are getting their data.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. So you think the FBI us wrong because you here about shootings? n-t
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. You hear it from the corporate media. You know, it bleeds it leads;
the "shocking new trend" of the week;
Top new news of the day on the latest Wall Street disaster. But first, is your cat telepathic?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. "Summer of the Shark", anyone?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. Maybe you live in a shitty area
Consider relocating.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. seems does`t mean factual
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. Why would you want more people walking around with guns? Seems like a strange thing to want.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Given a choice, I would rather see more honest people with carry licenses ,,,
walking around with guns and fewer criminals walking around with illegal guns.

It is quite possible but unprovable that there will be less street crime committed by criminal predators on innocent people if they aren't sure who is armed and who is not. One armed citizen can ruin your entire day if you are a bad guy.

Note that I am not recommending that everybody run out and a buy a gun and get a concealed carry license. Such a decision should be reached on an individual basis and should involve considerable thought. Carrying a concealed weapon is not for everybody and involves tremendous responsibility.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. You can't have that, because access by the publc to guns and ammo makes them available to anyone.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Tell that to the state of Florida or to the Supreme Court. (n/t)

CONSTITUTION

OF THE

STATE OF FLORIDA


SECTION 8. Right to bear arms.—
(a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?Mode=Constitution&Submenu=3&Tab=statutes&CFID=159851843&CFTOKEN=62440497#A1S08



Supreme Court affirms fundamental right to bear arms
By Robert Barnes and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 29, 2010


The Second Amendment provides Americans a fundamental right to bear arms that cannot be violated by state and local governments, the Supreme Court ruled Monday in a long-sought victory for gun rights advocates.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/28/AR2010062802134.html


All you have to do is to become King and Absolute Ruler of the United States and you can change the law to whatever you want.
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. That is correct. Firearms are available to anyone.
You are again absolutely correct. Firearms are available to anyone - good and bad alike.

Any attempt to pass a law restricting access to firearms will only affect your average, law-abiding citizen. It is not going to affect criminals, and it won't affect the rich and powerful, who will either buy their way around the law or hire private security forces.

So even if you could succeed in outlawing all firearms, all it would do is make sure that good people don't have access to them, making every single victim of violent crime be at the mercy of anyone stronger than they are.

In your attempt to keep firearms out of the hands of bad people, you would make all weak people be the victims of the strong.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
62. No, what you do is squeeze off access to the society as a whole.
Make 'em scarce.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Why would you care?
:crazy:
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Deadly force at the command of a trigger finger, that's why.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. Being afraid of people all the time must be a terrible burden on you
Edited on Mon May-23-11 02:58 PM by slackmaster
Your fear is clearly irrational because it flies in the face of statistics. Too bad there's nothing you can do about it.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
61. Afraid is as afraid does, gun man.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #61
66. What exactly do you mean by "gun man?"
Edited on Tue May-24-11 09:04 AM by slackmaster
Please be very specific. If you're going to make up some term, you are obligated to explain precisely what you mean.

Is that some kind of personal insult? I collect guns, just as other people collect baseball cards or Packard automobiles. Would you address such a person as card woman or car man?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. You refuse to explain your "gun man" remark, so I am done reading your crap
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Wow, you do realize that criminals have guns? Please explain why you....
think honest citizens should not be as armed as criminals.

Or explain how you would remove all handguns from criminals.

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fredamae Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. Has the definition of "violent crime" changed?
Remember how they changed the definition of military/war deaths so it ultimately changed the death count due to combat while under the bush regime?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Nope, it hasn't.
Same definition for about 40 years now.

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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
23. Looks like the north isn't catching on....they need to loosen their laws also.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Criminologist attributes this to good law enforcement/crime prevention - not more guns
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43138270/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts

<snip>

"In a word, remarkable," said James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University. In Fox's view, the declines signify success for aggressive law enforcement and corrections programs and comprehensive crime prevention efforts. He said the crime levels could easily rise if the current environment of state and local budget cutting extends to the law enforcement measures that are working.

<more>

no more fairy tales please

yup
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Yes and teachers will claim it's education and doctors claim it's less lead poisoning
But you agree that carrying guns legally and legal gun ownership is not the cause of crime. Good for you to have joined the 21st century.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Nice try Jpak, that is like saying "Economists say trickle down economics works" Or that....
"Climatologists say global warning is not real". Sure you can find a nut or two that backs up how you feel.

You pick and choose your studies I notice.

Gary Kleck is a leftty and a Criminologist and says more guns do NOT cause more crime. Do more reading.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. There is nothing in the original post that says anything about more guns causing less crime
nice try indeed

:rofl:
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. And you have no proof that more guns cause more crimes. And if you don't then I assume....
you will stop your anti-gun posts. Thanks!

And the laughing icon is cute, but does not help your cause at all. But keep trying.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. More guns = more gun murders - those are the facts
yup
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Great, prove it. Especially since there are more guns now than ever....
and murders are dropping every year. Wow, something seems wrong with your logic. LOL.

Yup!!

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. These are the facts - yup
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Where's Mexico no that list? Iraq? Sudan?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Try looking at a map
:D
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Record high gun sales yet continuing drop in all violent crime - THOSE are the facts.
yup
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Gun ownership is declining - gun hoarders do not influence the crime rate
yup
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. So why do you hate gun hoarders so much? n-t
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. They are hoarding because Obama is our president - the GOP/NRA Apocalypse
:D
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. No, some people just collect guns like others collect stamps. n-t
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. Then why the big push for gun control?
gun hoarders do not influence the crime rate

I'm glad we agree that the current batch of law-abiding gun owners don't influence the crime rate. But then why bother about gun control?
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
53. Sorry, but that's a useless stat to begin with.
The idea isn't to reduce just "gun murders" but murder in general. It's not about getting rid of just "gun crime" but crime in general. And the simple fact is that more guns do not result in more crime, nor do fewer guns result in less crime.

Causing a shift in implements is a pointless goal.
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. Not according the the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports....
Edited on Mon May-23-11 06:47 PM by S_B_Jackson
In fact, they seem to indicate just the opposite. More Guns =/= More gun murders.....in fact, over the last 12 years, gun deaths for causes other than suicide have decreased.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. I jsut read over at LBN it's thanks to abortion.


I don't care what the reason, abortions, Law enforcement, Firearm ownership...doesn't matter just that it keeps going down.


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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
51. Meanwhile, law enforcement gun death rates continue to climb.
Edited on Mon May-23-11 05:47 PM by onehandle
Which I suppose is a 'bonus' for the 'Remember Ruby Ridge' types.

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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Wrong.. again..
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. I addressed this in the other thread.
In this small, invisible room. There's always another thread.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. And you were soundly rebuked in another thread.
But hey, nice try again, onehandle.
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DanTex Donating Member (734 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
67. Are you really claiming a causal relationship between higher gun sales and reduced crime?
If so, you really need take a course in statistics and data analysis. I don't even think that the folks at AEI or Heritage would draw such a plainly flawed conclusion. I mean, the WSJ didn't even attempt to claim this as pro-gun.

I guess when there are no valid statistical studies supporting your case, you just jump on any numbers you can find.

Heat 96 - Bulls 85. It PROVES MY POINT: guns save lives!!!!!!!!!!
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Actually, I think he's criticizing the common "more lawful gun sales = more crime" hypothesis.
Edited on Tue May-24-11 05:59 PM by benEzra
Certainly, one cannot argue post hoc ergo prompter hoc that the ongoing decline in violent crime in the U.S. is the result of record handgun and "assault weapon" sales.

But one can argue that a long trend of declining violent crime that happens to coincide with record handgun and "assault weapon" sales, and with record carry licensure, certainly tends to invalidate the hypothesis that lawful handgun/rifle commerce drives homicide rates. That is clearly not the case.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. No, but there is NO PROOF more guns = more crime! :-)
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