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To understand Gungeon antis better, I would like these questions

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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns

gejohnston

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Tue May-24-11 09:41 PM
Original message

To understand Gungeon antis better, I would like these questions

How familiar are you with current federal gun control laws?
Select European countries are used to compare to the US in terms of "gun violence" how familiar are you with the gun laws of those countries? Rate of gun ownership in those countries?
Given your opposition to guns in bars, how do you feel about off duty cops drinking while armed in cop bars?
Why the emphisis on "gun deaths" rather than homocides or violent crime in general?
What makes churches special? Why should it be up to gov and not the church's management if they allow guns or not?
If you support duty to flee, how would forcing someone to flee their home (if they have a back door) make a more civilized society instead of a feudal society?
How much research on have you done on your own about castle doctorine?
The ability of the individual to armed self defense is one of the pillars of the enlightenment according to John Locke and Thomas Paine, please explain how your opposition is liberal or progressive.
Since all of the carry laws being repealed were passed by conservatives trying to suppress the labor and civil rights movements in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (which is why Vermont never passed any gun laws), why should liberals support them today?
Gun control groups predict "old west shoot outs" and "blood running in the streets", if these laws are repealed. When these predictitions turn out to be wrong, do you question the group's credibility?
Have you ever asked yourself why it never happened?
Why do places like New Jersey and New York and DC have stricter gun laws than Western Europe but have higher murder rates higher than the national average?
If your dream gun control law were enacted on the federal level and the results were no change or things get worse, how would you react and why?
Is the issue really about crime or safe streets or is it about people with guns you dislike? Why?

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TheWraith

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Tue May-24-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message

1. You might want to number these for ease of use. nt

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flamin lib

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Tue May-24-11 09:47 PM
Response to Original message

2. Got one question for you.

How the fuck is anyone going to discuss this with you (or any of the other gungeoneers)?

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Name removed

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Tue May-24-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #2

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

cleanhippie

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Wed May-25-11 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #4

22. You owe me a screen cleaning!

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eqfan592

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Wed May-25-11 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #22

26. lol, too bad the mods didn't find it as funny. :P (nt)

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oneshooter

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Wed May-25-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #26

36. It is as close as I could get to the truth, and not get deleated. n/t

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oneshooter

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Thu May-26-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #36

55. Aparently I got to close. n/t

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Name removed

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Tue May-24-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #2

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #15

20. When I lived in Japan, Korea, and Saudi Arabia

I lived well without my guns. The only guns I handled while there were partly owned by you (If you are US) and when told to. Care to answer any questions?

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cleanhippie

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Wed May-25-11 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #15

23. Oh, Hoyt, ALWAYS with the personal attacks. How expected.

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #2

21. easy, you know my PM address.

or just answer a question

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Name removed

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Tue May-24-11 09:48 PM
Response to Original message

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

ileus

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Tue May-24-11 09:52 PM
Response to Original message

5. all I know is guns kill people and I'm scared of em on peoples hips.

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pscot

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Tue May-24-11 09:56 PM
Response to Original message

6. Push poll.

You don't wanna talk. You're just trying to score off us.

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eqfan592

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Tue May-24-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #6

7. Your unwillingness to examine your own beliefs in detail is revealing. (nt)

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gejohnston

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Tue May-24-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #6

9. not intended to be a push poll or any kind of poll

I tend to digress a lot. But you will think what you will think. Why not write an essay in your own words?

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PavePusher

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Tue May-24-11 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #6

16. Most of these seem like pretty neutral, reasonable questions to me.

Maybe I'm just biased.

:shrug:

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Logical

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Tue May-24-11 10:15 PM
Response to Original message

8. You are giving the antis way too much credit. They have no real answers for anything. n-t

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msongs

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Tue May-24-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #8

10. no real answers for "anything"..."anything"?? wow they sure are totally stupid lol nt

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X_Digger

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Tue May-24-11 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #10

11. Then dazzle us with your brilliance..

"all gun owners must be required to join the militia, like the constitution says nt"
"all gun owners should be required to join the militia, as the constitution says nt"
"gun owners should be required to join the militia - "A well regulated militia being necessary..." nt"
"all gun owners must be required to join the militia, like the constitution says nt"
"are you in the militia as required by the second amendment? nt"
"you only have a right to a gun if you're in the militia per 2nd amendment nt"
"if you're in the militia you have the right to bear arms nt"

"fear of a black president nt"
"gun sales soar as first BLACK president is sworn in - gee wonder who's rushing the gun stores? nt"
" having a black president has way jackkked up gun sales. hmm wonder why? nt"
"fear of a black president + right wing media hysteria egging things on nt"
"racist gun wingnuts and fear of a black president - great for business eh gun shops? nt"
"gun whackos run amok using fear of a black president nt"
" fear of a black president run amok nt"
"fear of a black president by a group which is full of racists lol nt"
"lol sales are way up amongst the fear of a black president crowd...WAY up amongst racists nt"
"fear of a black president is doing wonders for the gun industry nt"
"did they tell you a BLACK man is now president n u should run out n buy guns? nt"
"fear of black president - go out and buy lots more guns nt"
"fear of a black president is swelling your ranks for the most part imo nt"
"driven by fear of a black president, gun sales have soared in the USA :-) nt"

"the toddler was just excercising his 2nd amendment rights IF he was in the militia nt"
"nuclear weapons are "arms". every 6 year old should have some nt"
"should be legal for 5 yr olds to carry at day care centers, after all, the constitution"
"constitutution does not prohibit 5 yr olds from owning guns. free guns for all apt. kids nt"
"guns for everyone, serial killers, 5 years olds, nut cases - constitutional rights ya know nt"
"children have a right to own and shoot guns anytime they wish. no bidg deal really nt"
"students have a constitutional right to carry guns at school...there is no age listed in the"
"all kids should be allowed to carry to school - 2nd amendment does NOT probhibit this nt"
"kids at elementary school should be allowed to carry guns, 2nd amnd. doesnt say adults only nt"
"yes the 2nd amendment allows 6 year olds to take guns to school so lets allow that too :-) nt"
"2nd amendment does not prohibit gun ownership by 8 year olds anywhere they go nt"
"2nd amendment has NO RKBA age limits...6 ur olds have a right to open carry nt"
"4 year olds have an RKBA right as well according to the 2nd amendment nt"

"crazies n nuts have a constitutional right to own and use guns too nt"
" legalize al weapons - convicted felons have a constitutional right to guns ya know nt"
"parolees, probationers, nuts, serial killers - everyone has the right to own guns . "
" the constitution does NOT bar serial killers from owning guns...or 4 year olds either nt"
"2nd amendment does NOT prohibit guns on airplanes or in the hands of criminals nt"
"2nd amendment does NOT prohibit felons or 5 year olds from owning guns nt"
"criminals have a constitutional right to carry guns on airplanes - not prevented by 2nd amendment nt"
"terrorists have a right to carry guns on planes, not prohibited by 2nd amendment. nt"
"terrorists have a 2nd amnd. right to carry guns on planes - not prohibited ya know nt"
"terroristsRKBA rights are denied when they cannot open carry on airliners nt"
"terrorists & serial killers have 2nd amendment rights too ya know. nt"
"prohibiting guns on airplanes and in schools = anti-RKBA bigotry right? nt"
"unlimited protection = terrorist RKBA rights to take guns on airplanes nt"
"the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed for any reason at all ever lol nt"
"2nd amendment - there are NO restrictions of any kind - kids, criminals, all have RKBA nt"

"no righteous killing to get off on in this one? nt"
"let all those gangbangers shoot a bunch of kids - its their righteous killing rights nt"
"so will the resident gun lovers call this another "righteous killing"? stay tuned ..... nt"
"is this another "righteous killing" for the gun crowd to celebrate? nt"
" "another righteous shoot" ..... jesus loves u anyway nt"
"another "righteous killing" for sure - after all that's what guns are FOR nt"
"oh this one is not righteous enough for u lololol. nt"
"the righteous killings are wonderful if a gun is used crowd disagree with you nt"
"another righteous killing in gun land...oh wait, the kid didnt die....yet nt"

I think I've seen only a handful of posts where you actually type something into the body. Why is that?

If we were to take your aggregate contribution to topics about gun control into account, I think I'd have to guess that the 'nt' stands for 'no thought'.

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Hoyt

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Wed May-25-11 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #11

25. Maintaining a list like that is almost "stalking." Poster makes valid points, you just don't like it

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RSillsbee

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Wed May-25-11 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #25

27. Poster makes valid points

Show one

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #25

28. since when are red herrings valid arguments?

would you like to answer a question?

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Hoyt

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Wed May-25-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #28

29. A "red herring" perhaps for the 3% that can't leave their guns a home. Not so much for rest of us.

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RSillsbee

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Wed May-25-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #29

31. Again, If that poster has such valid points

Share one w/ us

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #29

32. No, they are absurd regardless.

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X_Digger

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Wed May-25-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #25

30. When I see a valid point from that poster, I'll kiss it.

Yes, Hoyt, I keep track of the stupid shit people say.

You've contributed a few choice nuggets to my 'LOL' file as well.

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Katya Mullethov

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Wed May-25-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #30

38. Do I have a dossier too ?

I'm not in this for my health you know .

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Hoyt

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Wed May-25-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #30

40. Well here is one to kiss. After you kiss it, I'll give more.

"fear of a black president is doing wonders for the gun industry nt"

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X_Digger

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Wed May-25-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #40

41. Valid, dear heart, valid.

Gun sales started accelerating in the wake of Katrina (2005-6), then jumped up again in 2007, before President Obama was even the nominee.

The last time we had a democratic president and senate, we got the moronic 'assault weapons ban'. When it because clear that we'd have the wife of the last president to push gun control, or a chicago pol with a demonstrated anti-RKBA bent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-4jqZSEo0Q), folks hedged their bets on new gun control.

When Obama announced Biden as veep, it accelerated again (Biden was one of the co-authors of the AWB.)

It has nothing to do with the color of his skin- rather his previous record, his veep, and his cabinet coupled with a then-dem controlled congress.

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Hoyt

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Wed May-25-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #41

42. Where I live, gun stores were full right after election with same ole TBaggers voting against Obama.

But, even if you want to think Katrina was the point, it was still racism/bigotry that spurred the growth in sales. Gunners are TYPICALLY right wingers, bigoted, and maybe worse.

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X_Digger

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Wed May-25-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #42

43. Telepsychometry again?

Looking into people's heads from a distance based on an object again?

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discntnt_irny_srcsm

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Wed May-25-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #11

33. Seriously now.

Have you missed the usual "yup" in there? :sarcasm:

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cleanhippie

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Wed May-25-11 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #10

24. You said it, and no one else!

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RSillsbee

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Tue May-24-11 10:53 PM
Response to Original message

12. I think this thread is going to get locked

Maybe if you saved the questions and asked them individually you'd get a better response

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sharesunited

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Tue May-24-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #12

14. Agreed. As it exists, the OP looks like a rant with a chip on its shoulder.

Steeped with inexplicable pro gun bias.

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #14

18. well yes I do have a pro gun bias

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sharesunited

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Wed May-25-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #18

35. "Inexplicable" is the pertinent adjective.

Edited on Wed May-25-11 10:17 AM by sharesunited

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #12

19. I might later on thanks

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Name removed

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Tue May-24-11 11:02 PM
Response to Original message

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

petronius

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Tue May-24-11 11:36 PM
Response to Original message

17. The church question I think is interesting. It's one thing to say that churches have the right

to bar guns on their own accord, which I'd extend to any private business, but why do people call for legal bans on guns in churches (usually couched like "schools, churches, playgrounds, etc.")? How does that square with a separation of church and state. Is it just loose language, a reflexive grouping of 'nice' places?

The right of private businesses to ban guns also raises some interesting questions, when you consider the privatization of 'public' space that occurs with malls, outdoor arcades, and the like. Is there a line where the owners of such space are limited in what they can ban (guns, speech, photography, etc)?

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Bold Lib

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Wed May-25-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #17

39. Very interesting way to look at that.

The feds telling a church what legal activity can go on inside its walls is a VERY interesting way to look at this.

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discntnt_irny_srcsm

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Wed May-25-11 10:09 AM
Response to Original message

34. "Why should it be?"

"What makes churches special? Why should it be up to gov and not the church's management if they allow guns or not?"

-- Allowing any establishment to bar carry will raise the number of firearms left in vehicles and therefore make these more subject to theft than when carried. I'm not saying that establishments should not have the right to bar firearms. I'm just looking for opinions.

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #34

45. to me, it is more of a church/state thing that a 2A issue

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DanTex

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Wed May-25-11 11:41 AM
Response to Original message

37. OK I'll give it a shot...

Some of the questions would have one- or two-word answers, so I've selected a few main points.

--The ability of the individual to armed self defense is one of the pillars of the enlightenment according to John Locke and Thomas Paine, please explain how your opposition is liberal or progressive. Since all of the carry laws being repealed were passed by conservatives trying to suppress the labor and civil rights movements in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (which is why Vermont never passed any gun laws), why should liberals support them today?
Philosophical texts centuries old are not directly relevant to guns in modern society. John Locke was also a proponent of the gold standard, a fact which is equally irrelevant in todays economic debates. Things have changed, and it's not about armed resistance to a tyranny anymore, it's about public safety and crime. That's why today, as is plainly obvious to everyone except for pro-gun Democrats, the Republicans and teabaggers are on the pro-gun side and liberals are mainly anti-gun. Pro-gun Dems should be aware that you are taking the side of Glenn Beck over Rachel Maddow on this issue. Particularly if you buy into the armed citizen resistance against federal tyranny bit.

--Gun control groups predict "old west shoot outs" and "blood running in the streets", if these laws are repealed. When these predictitions turn out to be wrong, do you question the group's credibility? Have you ever asked yourself why it never happened?
I believe there is far too much gun violence in our society. I'm sure you think it's great that our homicide rate is 3-5 times Western Europe where they have much tighter gun control laws. Not me.

--Why do places like New Jersey and New York and DC have stricter gun laws than Western Europe but have higher murder rates higher than the national average?
Not sure you're right about NJ or NY State gun laws vs Western Europe. As far as NYC and DC, obviously the higher murder rates are due to other demographic factors: these are densely populated cities. Strangely enough, the pro-gun people never seem to understand that population density increases crime (as do many other things). NJ is in fact the single most densely populated US state. Here's a tip: when cherry-picking data, try not to make it so blatantly obvious. Try to disguise your intentions: go with something like Delaware or California.

More generally, the fact that these comparisons need to be controlled for other factors seems to be missed by 100% of pro-gun advocates. You can't compare the US vs Nigeria, nor can you compare Compton vs Montana. A natural comparison is US vs Western Europe as a whole. It's an imperfect comparison for sure (cultural differences, demographics, etc), but if you are going to make a large-scale comparison between relatively similar societies, this is the natural starting point. You have to really dig in order to come up with pro-gun favorites like USA v Nigeria, which nobody except for hardcore pro-gun believers will ever take seriously.

Unfortunately, US vs WEurope doesn't give you the results you want. So you start picking cherries, picking, picking... Let's see, there's 50 states and tens of Western European countries, so that gives you literally hundreds of possible two-way comparisons to choose from; if you include cities, even more. It's no surprise that you are able to find some that work out your way (New Jersey vs Switzerland!!!! Found one that goes pro-gun!!!!!!!)

--Is the issue really about crime or safe streets or is it about people with guns you dislike? Why?
It's really about crime and safe streets. But I will I admit I don't really like pro-gun teabaggers like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin and Scott Walker and Rand Paul and Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh and Michelle Bachmann. Come to think of it, are there any prominent teabaggers who are not also pro-gun advocates?

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #37

44. thanks for playing , I respond with

Things have changed, and it's not about armed resistance to a tyranny anymore, it's about public safety and crime. That's why today, as is plainly obvious to everyone except for pro-gun Democrats, the Republicans and teabaggers are on the pro-gun side and liberals are mainly anti-gun. Pro-gun Dems should be aware that you are taking the side of Glenn Beck over Rachel Maddow on this issue. Particularly if you buy into the armed citizen resistance against federal tyranny bit. It also had to do with individual self defense. I don't care if Beck agrees with me or not. How much of his bullshit is the real him and how much is part of his act is hard to tell. He told Forbes mag. that he does not give a rats ass about politics and that is in it for the money. He described himself as a rodeo clown. Is Bernie Sanders wrong for auditing the Fed just because Ron Paul happens to agree on that? It kind of seems like Appeal to Popularity. I just go where the fact are.

A natural comparison is US vs Western Europe as a whole. It's an imperfect comparison for sure (cultural differences, demographics, etc), but if you are going to make a large-scale comparison between relatively similar societies, this is the natural starting point. You have to really dig in order to come up with pro-gun favorites like USA v Nigeria, which nobody except for hardcore pro-gun believers will ever take seriously
The problem with Europe as a whole is that their laws are very different from one another. Actually it is not that hard to dig up places like Nigeria. Just pick one of the countries that have higher murder rates than we do. Only the hard core anti buys US v Japan or UK. If you want to go by similar societies, then compare West Europe with West Europe. Compare murder rates of Switzerland, Norway, Finland, with UK, Liechtenstein, Ireland.
Gun laws and ownership rates do not mean jack.

Unfortunately, US vs WEurope doesn't give you the results you want. So you start picking cherries, picking, picking... Let's see, there's 50 states and tens of Western European countries, so that gives you literally hundreds of possible two-way comparisons to choose from; if you include cities, even more. It's no surprise that you are able to find some that work out your way (New Jersey vs Switzerland!!!! Found one that goes pro-gun!!!!!!!)
How about New Jersey and Germany? It is a lot easier to get a CCW in Germany than New Jersey. How about The state of New York and Norway. Given that the murder rates were the same before Europe passed their laws, thus gun laws don't have jack to do with murder rates. It does not matter who cherry picks what.

But I will I admit I don't really like pro-gun teabaggers like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin and Scott Walker and Rand Paul and Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh and Michelle Bachmann. Come to think of it, are there any prominent teabaggers who are not also pro-gun advocates?
It is called the you must buy into this or else. "America's mayor" was anti gun until he decided to go on the national stage. His views changed over night. I have no idea what any of these people really think or what their handlers tell them to say or to make money. I frankly don't give shit what they think because I detest them as much as you do. I don't care if people I usually agree with and like disagrees either. I like Rachel and agree with her on most things, but she is wrong on this issue. Her opinion is her opinion, fine. If you are saying that we must be in lock step for with our talking heads, then sorry. I think for myself, I make my observations, I come to my own conclusions. I frankly don't give a shit what any pundit or talking head (left or right) agrees with me or not.

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gravity556

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Wed May-25-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #37

46. How about rather than comparing CA to DE,

we compare a couple of major cities close in size-Phoenix and Philadelphia. Not the biggest cities, but they are the 5th and 6th largest in the US.

http://phoenix.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=Philadelphia&s1=PA&c2=Phoenix&s2=AZ

Kind of a cool little crime comparison chart. It's only recent to 2006, though. The city populations and population densities came from wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #46

49. I did not compare CA to DE, but since you are here

comparisons and assuming that one difference (in this case gun laws) matter is pointless. If you really want to go that route how about El Paso and Cuidad Juariz? Right next door (was once the same city), similar population size. El Paso very gun awash, had only two murders. Mexico has very strict gun laws. It had 126 that same year. If you think gun smuggling, explain El Paso. It would be more constructive to compare before and after in the same place. Then you adjust for other factors if there is a change. You can pick Canada before and after their 1977 law, UK before and after their total ban, Jamaica, or any Western Europe just after the first world war. The answer is no change. In the case of Jamaica, it got worse. In each place, there are hundreds of possible factors. Economics, wealth inequality, culture, history, and many other factors.
bottom line is:
More guns does not mean more murder
less guns does not mean more murder

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rl6214

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Wed May-25-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #49

50. Juarez had over 3000 homocides in 2010

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Marengo

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Wed May-25-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #37

47. You're quite the connoisseur of association fallacies, aren't you?

Problem is, such devices only illuminate the weakness of your argument.

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gejohnston

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Wed May-25-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #47

48. not a connoissuer anything just paid attention class

How does pointing out logical fallacies weaken my argument? What are those weaknesses? Do you know what my argument is?

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eqfan592

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Wed May-25-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #48

51. Not sure he was talkin to you, actually.

The post was a reply to DanTex....

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gejohnston

(1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed May-25-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #51

52. my bad

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eqfan592

(1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed May-25-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #52

53. Don't worry man.

I'm so tired right now I can hardly see straight, so I can see how it's an easy enough error to make. :)

:toast:

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Marengo

(296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu May-26-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #48

54. Hold your fire, I'm on your side! ;) NT

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