Warwickshire (UK) air gun registration

http://www.warwickshire.police.uk/newsandappeals/currentappeals/040420selfcontainedcartridgeairweapons

By Saturday May 1, owners of self-contained air cartridge air weapons in Warwickshire must have either registered an application with the Force or have handed it in at a Police Station.

"It's very disappointing that so few people have responded to this new legislation and it's also very puzzling. When you take into account that if found guilty of possessing this type of air weapon, the owner will face a minimum of five years in prison, their lack of action is absurd.

Any friends from across the pond want to comment on this registration of AIR GUNS?

I think 5 years in prison is a bit steep for a BB gun, but what do I know, I'm just a gun owner from Texas.

if i act now, i can corner the "black market" of airsoft guns

Airsoft guns are still legal and there's no penalty for possession of them, unless you tote them in public...in which case you'll most likely end up with police pointing a real gun at you.

At least for a first offense for simple possession IIRC.

What's that old legal principle about making the punishment fit the crime?

:shrug:

Oh well, it's their country. I'll remember not to pack an air gun next time I visit.

That must be putting a dent in gun ownership. I'll bet you a dollar most people destroyed their old air guns rather than register them.

http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=166&dir=f

I think it's reasonable as the guns they are concerned with are a) look-alikes for real firearms, b) easily converted into real firearms and c) increasingly found on criminals (who are finding it harder to get real firearms).

The image you left out of your post:

/small?cell=350&qlt=65&zoomicon=2

Like here in the U.S.? Here, toy guns must have a bright color on them to clearly differentiate them from the real thing.

Also, I'm very curious as to how a BB gun that uses compressed air for propulsion and has a tiny barrel is converted to a "real firearm". You'd be better off just building the firearm from scratch.

""Why not pass a law requiring color markings?""

Coloured barrel marking will not make it harder for criminals to obtain and use. They'll simply rub off the markings and continue as before. Hopefully forcing people to register them will mean that they are a) harder to purchase (at present you can walk into a gun shop and buy one over the counter, provided you are 17 years or older) b) people will be more careful with how they store and transport them c) people will report thefts. All of these things will reduce the numbers getting into the hands of petty criminals.

"Also, I'm very curious as to how a BB gun that uses compressed air for propulsion and has a tiny barrel is converted to a "real firearm"."

From my understanding you merely bore out the barrel. A pair of 'underworld gunsmiths' recieved huige sentences recently for doing exactly this in addition to reactivating deactivated firearms. A quick google on "Brocock ME38 and Conversion" has loads of links to follow... including this one: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/05/ngun105.xml in which the manufacturer themselves admit that conversion is possible and the conversion is said to take "10 minutes" and require nothing more than a household hand drill. I'm willing to bet that that's quicker than building a handgun from scratch.

Because the day BB guns become "controversial" in the U.S. (which may not be too far off if the VPC/Brady get their way) will be a sad day indeed.

Maybe the solution is to teach the general public how to visually distinguish BB guns from firearms. Or to pass laws requiring BB guns to look obviously fake.

You conveniently overlook the real reason behind the toughening of the law, and you continue to misreport the reasons for this law.

The law is there to make it harder for criminals to get hold of this one type of air-weapon because it can be easily converted into a firearm proper.

It doesn't apply to air-weapons that use a spring system (such as pump air-rifles and pistols and airsoft guns).

The weapons are not being made illegal, they are being re-classified as firearms and they will therefore require a FAC to purchase or possess.

Hopefully forcing people to register them will mean that they are a) harder to purchase (at present you can walk into a gun shop and buy one over the counter, provided you are 17 years or older) b) people will be more careful with how they store and transport them c) people will report thefts. All of these things will reduce the numbers getting into the hands of petty criminals.

Reasons for requiring registration of firearms, in a nutshell. (The ability to remove them from the hands of "law-abiding gun owners" who demonstrate a proclivity or intention of ceasing to be "law-abiding" is the other.)

As you say, possession of these items -- like possession of a myriad of firearms in Canada -- is not and will not be illegal in itself.

Failing to register ownership of such an item and being in possession of an unregistered one (and failing to comply with any other rule that applies to firearms, e.g. safe storage and registration of transfers) will be an offence.

Some things are really just too easy to understand ... so easy to understand that one wonders at what a sweat must be worked up in attempting to misrepresent them, eh?

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Some things are really just too easy to understand ... so easy to understand that one wonders at what a sweat must be worked up in attempting to misrepresent them, eh?

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure the point behind this thread... except for it being another "look at what those loony Brits are up to now! They're all such stupid subjects! Watch out, if we give up our guns we'll have to worship the Queen too!".

Which seems a strange, convoluted and rather dishonest way in which to attack gun-control and its proponents.

I think it was just a "look at those loony Brits" thread and a round-about attack on gun-control proponents.

I always prefer to attack them directly. ;)

Pretty much sums up the bullets for brains bunch and their paranoid gibberish...

Plainly, I find it rediculous that there was a need to register BB guns.

Honestly, worrying about someone converting a bb gun to a working firearms is a bit beyond me. It would be more cost effective, and probably safer, for these lunatics to make zip guns out of metal pipe.

As for one of these air guns looking too much like the real thing...I can't help you there. I do know that it I try really, really hard, I can tell the difference between plastic and gun metal.

I do know that it I try really, really hard, I can tell the difference between plastic and gun metal.

/small?cell=350&qlt=65&zoomicon=2">Looks pretty metallic to me

Ofcourse, you're trying to make out that we're talking about toys and airsoft guns, when you know full well that we're not. The Brocock, for example, is made fully of metal and wood.

Honestly, worrying about someone converting a bb gun to a working firearms is a bit beyond me. It would be more cost effective, and probably safer, for these lunatics to make zip guns out of metal pipe.

The fact is that the criminals performing the conversions want realistic looking, feeling and performing firearms. Many of them want the gun as a fashion accessory as anything else. A zip gun wouldn't cut it.

Some things are really just too easy to understand ... so easy to understand that one wonders at what a sweat must be worked up in attempting to misrepresent them, eh?

How could anyone possibly oppose gun registration after you explain it so well?

Despite your protestations, though, I'm sure you understand exactly why those of us who believe in the RKBA refuse to accept registration of firearms. You can see the history of registration leading inexorably to confiscation as well as we can. But since you don't care, you refuse to acknowledge that as the ultimate destination. Perhaps you refuse to acknowledge it even to yourself.

Fortunately, no one else in the world has a record of all the firearms that I own. That's not to say that I actually own any firearms at all. I exploited the "gun show loophole" and sold them all. :tinfoilhat:

You can see the history of registration leading inexorably to confiscation as well as we can.

Just a sheep in blinkers, that's me; that would have to be the explanation for why I see no such thing. (Now won't *you* introduce yourself?)

Maybe this summer I'll take a road trip to the small Canadian town of my former brief residence (the one where the 13-year-old son of the man I was seeing had killed himself with daddy's hunting rifle before I moved there) and listen to all my lawyer buddies there moan about how all their hunting weapons have been taken away from them, now that they've been stupid enough to register them, and there's just nothing to do these days on their drunken expeditions into the woods ...

Being versed in the subject as I am, I have the notion that the Canadian constitution, and the stroppy judges who interpret and apply it, probably just wouldn't allow that to happen. Not unless there were some really huge compelling reason for it, which I can't imagine just at the moment.

Will someone let me know when it does happen, please?

And don't forget to remind me how drinking mother's milk leads inexorably to alcoholism.

Oh, by the way -- checked your garage today?? You'll want to make sure that no one has confiscated that registered motor vehicle of yours while you were asleep, I imagine.

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I hope the "stroppy" Canadian judges won't let Canada go the way of the UK or Australia or California or New York City or New Jersey or Chicago or Washington DC or....

Sorry if I have no faith in any judiciary restraining an aggressive legislature. None of them have shown much restraint so far.

Past a certain point, it's only a matter of time. To quote a famous "philosopher": "Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of your life."

Ah, the motor vehicle red herring. When motor vehicles become as controversial as firearms, I'll start to be worried. When children are indoctrinated in public schools from day one that cars are evil, then I'll start to be worried. When countries and cities around the world ban cars, I'll start to be worried.

Until then, I'm quite sure my registered motor vehicles are safe from the government.

Anti-establishment rebels like John AssKKKroft and Brwana Dick Cheney would doubtless agree with every word you say...

n/t

Conside yourself privileged to be rescued from the sewer of right wing gun nut propaganda, if only for a moment.

It's almost as intellectually honest as VPC propaganda.

Nobody asked you to snivel about what I said in the first place.

But thanks for the generosity.

It's called "Justice and Public Safety"...if you want to piss and moan about some phony right you have to your popgun, feel free.

I usually associate "pissing and moaning" with people who use irrelevant ad hominems and juvenile name calling.

I associate it with the sort of specimen who thinks the stentorian is a real source of fact.

Or are you saying is this image is a hoax?

Sorry if I have no faith in any judiciary restraining an aggressive legislature. None of them have shown much restraint so far.

(Actually, of course, a judiciary restraining an aggressive legislature is doing the exact opposite of "showing restraint". Judicial "restraint", or "deference", is what is sometimes shown when the judiciary does *not* invalidate what a legislature has done.)

The Canadian Supreme Court, and lower courts, have shown the most extreme willingness to smack down uppity legislatures. Buy a book, ask google. Learn something.


Past a certain point, it's only a matter of time.

Oh, well, there you have it. The universe is finite, and will end. Can I offer you a handbasket?

http://www.geocities.com/msrosie37/handbaskets/

Handbasket Models 2001

Have you been deemed to be going to "Hell in a Handbasket"? This is the place for you! Go in comfort in your very own Handbasket, we have a variety of sizes, styles and colours to choose from at very reasonable prices!

Now, if you'd prefer to talk sense, I'll be around. Let me know if you'd like a selection of slippery slopes.




I hope the "stroppy" Canadian judges won't let Canada go the way of the UK or Australia or California or New York City or New Jersey or Chicago or Washington DC or....

You obviously know little to nothing about things Canadian. Stick around. Canada has gone way beyond NYC or NJ or any of those ones, I assure you, when it comes to firearms control, at least on balance.

If Parliament could demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Supreme Court that any measure it took met the tests of constitutional validity (you could try asking google for lexum Oakes if you feel like familiarizing yourself with them) -- according to the Constitution that the people of Canada have adopted for governing ourselves and the interpretation of that Constitution by the courts, which the Canadian people overwhelmingly support -- then its legislation would be upheld. Mature liberal democracy and all that.


When motor vehicles become as controversial as firearms, I'll start to be worried. When children are indoctrinated in public schools from day one that cars are evil, then I'll start to be worried. When countries and cities around the world ban cars, I'll start to be worried.

Until then, I'm quite sure my registered motor vehicles are safe from the government.

Well, we can only hope that countries and cities will take steps in that direction in the near future, given how the survival of humanity may depend on it. And if the steps they take withstand constitutional scrutiny, there we'll be. And there you and your registered motor vehicle will be.

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this law is only aimed at airguns which can be easily converted to fire live ammo.

When I used to shoot a company brought out an airpistol revolver, where you used cartridges loaded with an airgun pellet and charged with compressed gas. These cartridges were similar in size and shape to bullets, and the guns themselves closely resembled S&W .357s and .38s (IIRC, it's been 15 years since I shot).

In addition, somebody had the bright idea of taking genuine Lee Enfield .303 rifles and converting them to fire these charged airgun cartridges.

It seems that it is relatively simple to convert some of these weapons to fire live ammo, and in fact many criminals have been caught with these converted weapons (including one of the So Solid Crew IIRC). It seems sensible, therefore, to require them to be registered, as they are a target for criminal misuse.

Oddly, criminals have to resort to this because there isn't a ready mass market of untraceable firearms in the UK....

Compressed air weapons that I am familiar with use either the "pump" method or the cylinder method for gas to expel the projectile.

Honestly I had never seen or heard of the type of pneumatic weapon you are describing. That is to say it makes a little more sense now.

Keep in mind that here in the US, the BATFE defines a firearm as a device using a chemical explosion to derive energy, not compressed air. Here, converting one of these could land one in club fed for illegal manufacture, at least that's the way I understand it.

when I used to shoot air rifles, you needed a firearms certificate if your weapon was above a certain power.

IIRC, it was 8ft/lbs for pistols and 12ft/lbs for air rifles.

Although clear not a "fire"arm in the literal sense, the government had decided (many years ago, pre-ban) that it was the power of the weapon that established whether it required a permit or not.

I think that this is fairly sensible to be honest.

Here's more info on one of the air cartridge manufacturers:

"All our current production air pistols and air rifles use the dedicated Brocock Air Cartridge. This unique system based on the .38 BAC means that our airguns function just like real breech loading firearms. The pellet and compressed air are contained in the body of the Air Cartridge together with a sophisticated valve system, dispensing with the weighty mechanics of conventional spring and piston based guns."

I'm not an exPert, but the pistols show look very convincing to me.

but I've not seen the type of air guns you are describing here in the US. Of course I don't have a ton of experience with air guns, the ones I am familiar with are fairly crappy CO2 pistols and some "adult" pump action air rifles that could be used for rodents. In fact, until this came up I had never laid eyes on a breech loading air gun of the type mentioned here. Most of the ones around here are plastic. The metallic air guns look like air guns.