Renewing the assault weapons ban ill-conceived - Chicago Tribune

An excellent logical explanation by columist Steve Chapman. Published May 27, 2004.

...The 1994 law was a monument to President Bill Clinton's distinctive political genius--which generally involved tiny symbolic changes that pleased particular constituencies without actually having much effect. It prohibited the manufacture, sale or import of 19 different firearms, along with magazines holding more than 10 rounds.

All the rhetoric behind the bill gave the impression we were outlawing military machine guns, an impression fed by references to the need to get AK-47s off the streets. But machine guns were effectively banned long ago, and the 1994 law didn't affect them.

The guns used by the Red Army and assorted guerrillas around the world are indeed automatic weapons, firing up to 100 rounds a minute with a single squeeze of the trigger. But the so-called AK-47s allowed before the ban were semiautomatics, which fire only once each time the trigger is pulled. They are to authentic military weapons what a beer-league softball player is to Barry Bonds.

Semiautomatic pistols, shotguns and rifles are commonplace firearms in this country, and almost all of them remain legal. They were not targeted even though they are functionally identical to the "assault weapons" that were forbidden. The latter firearms were banned not because they fire faster or do more damage than other guns, but because they look scary....

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don't ya know this?

Is a truthful article printed in the ChiTrib worth any less because of anything else they have ever published?

You're indulging in a Genetic Fallacy, impugning the source and claiming anything they say is necessarily wrong.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/genetic-fallacy.html

And my bet is that you're indulging a ... well, let's say "trickster". Inadvertently, I'm sure. I do say in all sincerity. Even though I might have expected a little less credulousness from your particular corner.

Is a truthful article printed in the ChiTrib worth any less because of anything else they have ever published?

A fine question. Of course, the case in point wasn't a "truthful article", it was an opinion piece. Act, straw!

> without actually having much effect.

It had a great effect. Talk to any cop on the street! They love the idea that the federal government was looking-out after their safety. According to one local cop that was quoted in the paper, they see those huge machine-gun magazines that hold dozens and dozens of bullet-proof piercing bullets much less often now than they did 10 years ago. Bill Clinton did a good job. We need to make sure his good work doesn't get undone. The repugs are working to undo everything Clinton did for us. Protecting us from machine guns is a legacy no one, other than the gun nuts, wants to undo.

> because they look scary....

Bayonets don't only look scary! They are deadly. Is that writer really making a ridiculous claim otherwise? I wonder if he would mind if I try-out one on him since "they look scary?" I wish people would use logic some logic before making those type of idiotic claims!

...when they're going through your chest - right?

:shrug:

I'm sure you know that, CO.

:shrug:

They're NOT being used in crimes.

You seem to be taking the tack of "Nobody needs them so we might as well ban them." That's downright un-American IMO. We're supposed to be able to do, say, and own whatever we want in this country as long as we don't hurt anyone else.

:shrug:

With any other long pointed instrument.

Would you ban swords, pikes, spears, javelins, etc. too?

For example, my employer (a major defense contractor, BTW) doesn't allow guns on the premises, or any knife with a blade longer than three inches.

In Berkeley, CA you can't possess any knife with a blade over 2 inches.

The pocket knife I carry around every day has a blade longer than three inches. I would suspect the same of many other people as well.

Since violators can be subject to termination, everyone makes sure they're in compliance.

For example. I keep a knife in my desk drawer for eating lunch - its blade is 2 3/4" long, so it's OK. The steak knife I use to use (with the 5-inch blade) went home when the new policy was announced.

I was thinking more of visitors being prosicuted for having a pocket knife. Since the employees are, or should be, familiar with this policy there should be terminations for violations.

Anything that might scare sissy boys is to be banned. Ok. You want to take away my rights to own objects that potentially could be used in a crime.. Ok

That's such a slippery slope and you know it. Heading down towards kitchen knives and axes and whatever.. Cars.. Who knows what.

anything other than basic food, water, shelter, and medical care?

Seriously.

... they see those huge machine-gun magazines that hold dozens and dozens of bullet-proof piercing bullets much less often now than they did 10 years ago...

Let me help you out with some data here - The high-capacity magazine ban is NOT part of the "assault weapons" ban. When the AWB expires in September, the magazine ban will remain in place.

Protecting us from machine guns is a legacy no one, other than the gun nuts, wants to undo.

Did you even bother reading the article, vpigrad? The "assault weapons" ban has nothing to do with machineguns.

> "How many crimes have been committed with bayonets?"

Are you claiming that bayonets don't hurt people? Are you volunteering to be the test subject? How about you doing a little research?

> The "assault weapons" ban has nothing to do with machineguns.

It has everything to do with it when those things are made so that even a teenager with minimal tools can convert them to full auto. Two did that in the small town where I live, and they were planning to rob a local restaurant before the cops found-out about them. The Bush-run BATF didn't even bother to file charges against them. They only faced local charges for buying the weapon with a fake ID rather than federal charges that should have put them away for 25 years. Instead, they got probation and are still on the streets. I recently helped the restaurant owner so he could start taking credit cards so he wouldn't have as much cash on hand as before. Fear of gun owners is costing him 3% of his gross plus time every week to check the cc deposits. For a small family business, the large overhead might cost him his livelyhood. Guns cost everyone.

Burden of proof is on YOU.

I have several old military bolt-action rifles that all accept bayonets. I even have bayonets for a few of them. Would you ban those based on your fear of being bayonetted?

It has everything to do with it when those things are made so that even a teenager with minimal tools can convert them to full auto.

Please provide some documentation that such conversions can be done by "a teenager with minimal tools". I do some gunsmithing and I know you are mistaken.

:sigh:

I have several old military bolt-action rifles that all accept bayonets. I even have bayonets for a few of them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=60755&mesg_id=60768&page=

:evilgrin:

In the AWB issue. Ownership and control over some of my valued assets are at stake.

all your weapons had gone in the drink.

It was a sad thing, but like an alcoholic pouring his demon down the drain, I thought you had broken your addiction.

/weak attempt at humor.

Went night SCUBA diving and recovered them all late yesterday.

:evilgrin:

If you went pro- gun control we might as well shut down the forum. I'd be out of a job and I do rely on this income!

Moderators get PAID???

I thought it was a labor of love.

:freak:

/sarcasm

I think we have a lot of the same interests. :)

I also have several old military bolt-action rifles with bayonets. I recently bought an original bayonet for my Swiss K31. As they say in my hometown, it is "purty."

n/t

"The high-capacity magazine ban is NOT part of the "assault weapons" ban. When the AWB expires in September, the magazine ban will remain in place."

The AWB also covers the standard capacity round clause. When the AWB is gone, then we'll have our regular magazines back.

I'll double-check it to be sure. Much later, must go take care of business.

The standard capacity magazine ban is subject to the sunset provision. It expires 9/14/04 along with the ban on scary-looking semi-automatic rifles.

I'm counting the minutes. Literally. 107 days. 11 hours. 4 minutes. Give or take.

hurts me the most. It's just stupid to have these nice pistols, Glock 17, S&W 5906, Sig P226, Beretta 92, and others and only having a few extremely expensive magazines for them.

The only thing the ban did was to make smaller, better conceal pistols in .45 and .40. If you can't have 15+ 9's, get 8-11 .45's or .357 Sigs.

$120 for a standard magazine for my Glock 10mm. That was the cheap one too. 10 round magazine versus a 15+2 magazine is a large difference. Still hard to choke down the price though.

15rd Glock 10mm magazines should eventually be $16-20 again. :) If you know a friend LEO, have him buy a few LEO magazines and hold them for you until 9-14-04.

Hopefully in 7 or 8 months I will be one as well. :)

You'll be a member of the elite privileged class. :)

Congratulations. I'm sure you'll make a fine LEO.

We can't even transfer gransfathered standard-capacity magazines.

But we can buy replacement parts for mags we already own. Bodies, floorplates, springs, and followers; just not all four at the same time.

Will still infringe on rights. Nationally though, it'll be much better if all goes well.

I'm not sure what California's going to do with new suddenly-unmarked standard-capacity magazines floating around the country. :)

A cop buddy has already bought a few extra LEO-restricted magazines for me. He is going to sell them to me on 9/14/04, when the LEO-only restrictions lapse. I don't know how soon after 9/14/04 standard-capacity magazines will be available in the retail channel.

CA's law will become totally unenforcable as there's no date stamps on them at all. Hopefully it'll be a way for CA people to reclaim some freedoms.

n/t

but I will correct inaccuracies no matter who wrote them.

The guns used by the Red Army and assorted guerrillas around the world are indeed automatic weapons, firing up to 100 rounds a minute with a single squeeze of the trigger.

Umm, AK-47's the real, full auto AK-47's will fire a hell of a lot more than 100 rounds per minute. The cyclic rate of fire for a REAL FULL AUTOMATIC AK-47 is 600 rounds per minute.

http://www.ak-47.us/

Other than that, the author makes some good points.

To calculate the latter you have to account for magazine changes.

But other than that, your point is valid.

Without trying to sound argumentative, I still maintain 100 rounds a minute is low.

600 rds/min = 10 rounds/sec.

1 30 round magazine = 3 seconds of sustained fire. A slow magazine change = 5 seconds. 30 rounds every 8 seconds works out to 225 rounds per minute. Not wistanding the higher rate of fire if a 40 round magazine or a 75 round drum are used.

Given a sufficient supply of drums, one could probably burn up the barrel in one minute if one was so inclined, or at least smoke the handguards.

and such firearms have started to appear on the streets.
A policeman was just killed with one in San Francisco last month.

You've heard propaganda with no facts to back it up.

I have a collection of firearms and do some gunsmithing for myself. Converting a closed-bolt semiautomatic firearm to fully automatic is far from trivial. There is always precision machine work required, and usually permanent modifications to the receiver. In most cases you have to modify hardened parts, which is no mean task for an amateur.

A policeman was just killed with one in San Francisco last month.

That weapon was smuggled in to the country. It was manufactured as fully automatic, NOT converted from semiautomatic. Same with the Kalashnikov rifles used in the infamous North Hollywood bank robbery. The "assault weapons" ban has nothing to do with those.

> Converting a closed-bolt semiautomatic firearm to fully automatic is far from trivial.

That is a lie. Two local teenagers converted an SKS to full-auto with about an hour of work. The owner of a local gun shop showed them what to do. A local cop was quoted in the paper that they ran about 100 rounds through it without problem. That is scary!

Typically with a semi-auto all you have to do is shave-off the disconnector to get the hammer to follow the bolt. That is trivial. Of course, it isn't completely safe, but if someone wanted to be safe, they wouldn't own a gun in the first place.

that while it has been the position of our "pro gun democrats" that making such a conversion is a feat of engineering akin to Hoover Dam, and certainly out of the reach of common criminals (snicker)...

Some have been simultaneously holding that no attempt should be made to keep assault weapons out of the hands of criminals BECASUSE bad guys will be able to whip their own guns up from scratch using a few household objects (oh yes they did)...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=58782&mesg_id=58782

Meanwhile, kits and detailed instructions for such a conversion are both readily available and common.

Two local teenagers converted an SKS to full-auto with about an hour of work. The owner of a local gun shop showed them what to do.

Cite, please. I own an SKS, am somewhat familiar with its action, and frankly I don't believe your claim. The SKS is a very reliable semiautomatic, but it's not a good platform for controllable, reliable full auto function.

Typically with a semi-auto all you have to do is shave-off the disconnector to get the hammer to follow the bolt.

You've been watching too many movies. Disabling a disconnector will usually result in a completely non-functional weapon. At "best" you'd get an unreliable, possibly uncontrollable slam-fire automatic. Definitely not "terrorist grade".

Not under federal law nor any state I'm aware of. I could go to any major gun store here in San Diego, CA today, buy an SKS rifle, and pick it up June 7 (we have a 10-day wait for all firearm purchases). I believe you can even buy them in New Jersey. Since the rifle lacks a pistol grip and has an internal (non-detachable) magazine that holds only 10 rounds, neither the present AWB nor either of the proposals in Congress to "strengthen" the AWB cover the SKS.

Unlike the Kalashnikov, the Simonov or SKS platform was never implemented as a selective-fire weapon. They've always been semiautomatic only.

See http://www.simonov.net/ for some interesting information and links.

Mine was made in China in the late 1980s. The owner's manual is hilariously badly translated into English, e.g. "You must be using only genuine replacement parts from Peoples' Armory Number 416."

We are on our fourth cache of machine guns captured during April and May here now. Two I am not entirely sure that they were not semi-auto but I imagine the reporter got it right; this is Texas after all. :) The articles did not state if they were actually submachine guns though.

is illegal. It's called manufacturing a machine gun without a license. Even those who have an BATFE license to build new machine guns legally, cannot sell them to the public legally.

Modifying an AK-47 to fire fully automatic requires one to find and purchase an automatic fire control group (illegal), machine the reciever of the weapon to accept the fire control group (irreversable and illegal) and install the fire control group (also illegal). Easily spotted as well since part of the work involves drilling an extra pair of holes in the receiver, a set of holes that do not appear on the sides of a semi auto rifle.

Auto sears and new machine gun manufacture has been regulated/banned since 1986.

Fully automatic weapons themselves have been seriously regulated since 1934.

EDITED for spelling.

"CHICAGO, May 27 /PRNewswire/ -- A Sauk Village Federal Firearms Licensee was arrested early today on federal firearms charges by the Firearms Trafficking Task Force of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which is comprised of ATF agents, the Illinois State Police, Cook County States Attorney's Investigators, Chicago Police Department, and the Illinois Attorney General office.
In addition to recovering the original ATF Form 4473 reporting the sale of a Hi Point, .380 caliber, semi-automatic pistol, the task force recovered two altered shotgun barrels less than the required 18-inch length as well as firearm parts designed or intended for use in converting a weapon to fire fully automatic; one Dremel tool kit used to alter the barrel length of the shotguns; approximately 200 additional firearms, including AK47 types, AR15 types, Uzi pistol types and TEC 9 type assault rifles; several boxes of firearms ammunition; and two books entitled "How to Make Disposable Silencers" and "Full Auto Modification Guide." "

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-27-2004/0002183326&EDATE=

May I offer some constructive criticism?

If you don't know anything about how a firearm operates, kindly STFU on the issue.

Thanks for your cooperation.

"kindly STFU on the issue"
Who needs to wank their willies over gun porn to know those weapons do NOT belong on the civilian market? You don't need to have an advanced degree in pharmacology to know poison is bad for you.