Muslim grinches steal Bethlehem Christmas.World leaders,media blame Israel

Muslim grinches steal
Bethlehem Christmas
World leaders, media blame Israel for fleeing Christians

BETHLEHEM – With Christmas services here drawing far fewer tourists than in the 1990s and the town's Christian population now at an all-time low, many world leaders and hundreds of major media outlets this week blamed Israel for Bethlehem's decline – often citing false information – while a simple talk with the town's residents reveals a drastically different picture. They say Muslim persecution has been keeping Christians away.

"All this talk about Israel driving Christians out and causing pain is nonsense," a Bethlehem Christian community leader told WND. "You want to know what is at play here, just come throughout the year and see the intimidation from the Muslims. They have burned down our stores, built mosques in front of our churches, stole our real estate and took away our rights. Women have been raped and abducted. So don't tell me about Israel. It's the Muslims."

The Bethlehem leader, like many Christians on the streets here, would not provide his name for publication for fear of retaliation.

Bethlehem's Christian population has declined drastically after the Palestinian Authority took control in December, 1995. Once 90 percent of the city, Christians now compose less than 25 percent, according to Israeli survey information. Christmas celebrations this year attracted about 30,000 tourists – 10,000 more than last year but down from an average of 150,000 in 1994.

Many Christians told WND they face constant Muslim hostility.

One religious novelty-store owner cited examples of Muslim gangs defacing Christian property, the PA replacing Christian leaders on public councils with Muslims, and armed Palestinian factions stirring tensions. One such incident was last week's storming of Bethlehem's City Hall, across the street from the Church of the Nativity, believed to be the birthplace of Jesus, by gunmen from the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terror group.

The store owner said "We are harassed but you wouldn't know the truth. No one says anything publicly about the Muslims."

More:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48064

From the right-wing nutjobs at WorldNutDaily.

Christmas In Bethlehem

Media exaggerate Bethlehem's demise and under-report anti-Christian violence by Palestinians

<snip>

* There is no barrier (completely encircling) Bethlehem. There is only a fence where the Bethlehem area interfaces with Jerusalem and close to the 1949 armistice line. Only a very small segment of the fence is a concrete wall preventing terrorists from shooting at motorists.
* The economy has actually improved significantly. While 110,000 tourists visited the city during 2004, more than 218,000 have already visited Bethlehem during 2005 - an increase of around 100%. There have been corresponding increases in Bethlehem's main industries: Textiles 50%, Stone and marble export 40%, commercial transportation 20%. These increases have brought millions of dollars into the local economy.
* The IDF has decided to take a "calculated risk" to make access easier for tourists. According to IDF Lt. Col. Aviv Feigel in the Jerusalem Post, "The military will try to speed the process by not checking every tourist bus, but conducting spot checks of random buses instead."

Israel is taking these steps despite the fact that "Half of the Israeli terror fatalities in 2004 came from attackers who entered Jerusalem from Bethlehem."

<snip>

And just this week, Palestinian gunmen disrupted Christmas preparations in Bethlehem taking over the municipality building across from the Church of Nativity (See Associated Press). For a detailed report on Muslim violence against Christians that is largely ignored by the media, click here. Despite the Palestinian efforts to push out Christian residents, this holiday season will see thousands of pilgrims celebrating Christmas in Bethlehem. The New Statesmen and Baltimore Sun should cover the facts and not rely on Palestinian propaganda.

More:
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Christmas_In_Bethlehem.asp

It would seem to me that if there really were such a serious problem between the Palestinians and the Christians in Jerusalem, that this person would know about it, don't you think? Yet Rev. Sabbah condemns not the Muslim residents of Bethlehem, but the Israelis and the Wall.

From an earlier thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x108883


Catholic patriarch calls for dismantling of Israel's security wall
Israel's top Roman Catholic has said Bethlehem has become an "immense prison" since the West Bank barrier was built, calling for its dismantling as he joined thousands of pilgrims for midnight mass on Christmas Eve.

Rev. Michel Sabbah, the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem, made the comments on Saturday after leading a procession from the city to Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ.

It marked the first Christmas that the town has been cut off from Jerusalem by a newly completed eight-metre-high concrete wall, part of the barrier that Israel has built between itself and the West Bank.

The pilgrims had to pass through a military checkpoint to enter Bethlehem.

"This wall must not exist. One day it will not exist," Sabbah told Israeli Radio after he passed through a military checkpoint into Bethlehem.


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/12/24/bethlehem-051224.html

Gee, who should I believe about this, a biased news outlet, or the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem?

MR. SHARON, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL.

"Yet off the record, many Christians in Bethlehem who were interviewed during the past week expressed deep concern over increased attacks by Muslims on members of their community. Moreover, most of them said that they were seriously considering moving to the US, Canada and Latin America, where many of their relatives already live."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=3&cid=1129540575411&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

...and the reason they are saying that they are leaving is because of the Israeli measures such as the Wall and the curfews, which limit their economic options:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4548312.stm



So this is primarily an economic matter, not just a question of violence, but the biased article you cite fails to mention that.

The article said this, as the article barb quoted did:
A few Christians speak privately of harassment, Muslims seizing Christian land and the fear of speaking out against radical groups.

But you failed to include the next sentence, here:
But many others say they live like brothers with their Muslim neighbours, sharing the struggle against Israeli occupation.

I rest my case.

can selectively quote to make it appear there is no problem, I can do the same to show there is one, no?

And contrary to the idyll you seem to claim, at least some of Bethlehem's Christians seem to disagree with you.

as to whether at least some of the Christians were (or felt) threatened by Muslims; you said they weren't quoting an article which at least partly contradicted your point - something you didn't bother to quote.

barb's article gave the impression that there was a significant problem of Christians being threatened violence and leaving Bethlehem as a result. The article made no mention of any other reason whatsoever why Christians might want to leave Bethlehem. I found an article which, you will have to admit, refuted that. I quoted from portions of that article, and in fact, but for the four paragraph limit, I could have quoted even more points from the article refuting the points in barb's.

Yet here you are, saying that I should have instead quoted those few paragraphs from my article which supported the case of barb's article (and the majority of what was in my article substantially refuted barb's) and because I didn't I was "selectively quoting"????

The logic of that escapes me.

and this story proves it...it appears factual

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

has to do with this thread

There is a difference between facts and opinions. Opinions don't magically become facts because someone likes what they read and decides it must appear factual...

Violet...

Several posts all dedicated to spreading right-wing propaganda?
You may hit a record for the most posts locked in a single day.
I don't think it serves any social, redeeming purpose whatsoever. close to the definition of pornography.

Being anti-Israel or anti-semitic is not a Liberal or left-wing value.

One does not measure their libralism against a yardstick of hatred for Israelis or Jews.

If I have to cite an occasional right-wing source to balance it out, then more's the pity. It dirties my hands a little, but so be it.

What I've posted is no more biased against Palestinians than what others have posted biased against Israelis.

There is ugliness on both sides of the security fence.

In any case, go hunt around Google and check the facts for accuracy if you wish.

That's something to consider, isn't it, that any attempt to provide
*BALANCE*, to be anti-anti-Israel, means posting repugnant propaganda
from the sources you've posted here. If the only places one can find
any Zionistic pov are WND, &tc, I would hope that at some point, there'd
be a Eureka! momment.

I just found a right-wing source that says the same things about the Palestinians that many here are saying about the Israelis.

..in some sort of attempt to even up the playing field when it comes to some posts somewhere else that may or may not be bigoted against Israelis or Jews...

So, why did you finish up yr post by claiming that bigoted garbage you posted is factual? There's a difference between posting something to make a point, and posting something and believing it's true...

Violet...

No doubt. But there's only the daily, systematic oppression of life under occupation on one side of the fence.

What's more, this fine upstanding effort from WorldNetDaily gives irrefutable proof that the War On Christmas is a global war of persecution against poor persecuted Christians and their nativity scenes everywhere! ;)

Violet....

The latest archaeological findings, which were broadcast by CNN, is that Jesus was probably born in Bet Lehem in Galilee, not in the Bethlehem outside Jerusalem.

People are fighting over a myth that has no historical basis.

Tale of two Bethlehems (3:37)
Some scholars are suggesting Jesus was born in another town called Bethlehem. CNN's John Vause reports (December 24)

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/video/world/2005/12/24/tale.two.bethlehem.cnn/content.exclude.html

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/24/bethlehem.ap/

http://www.banksy.co.uk/news/

:)

:thumbsup:

:eyes:

Father wearing Santa Clause outfit, who came to pick up his daughter from a night club in south Tel Aviv, set upon by gang of youths

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3194238,00.html

<snip>

"He's Jewish in every way, but on New Year's Eve, Alexei Shtukin (42) decided to dress up as Santa Clause "just for fun," and paid for his decision dearly.

He was set upon by a gang of youths at the Dome nightclub in Tel Aviv, and beaten in front of his family. Youths were heard shouting, "dead Christian."

<snip>

"At the Ichilov hospital, tests found that the rioters broke Alexei's nose, and that he is suffered injuries throughout his body.

"My daughter is still in shock, and it seems we'll have to take her to a psychologist. I don't understand how people who celebrate the New Year get angry over a Santa Clause outfit. When we came to Israel, we thought, here there are no thugs in the street like in Russia. It seems we were wrong," said Alexei."

the rw wackos really eat this shit up, eh?

:crazy:

peace

Too bad some people can't see facts when the facts are hitting them in the face

See link to article in separate post I am doing, oh, and thanks for posting this

See, the article was very heavily loaded with opinion rather than facts, and also appears to have been written by someone who doesn't like Muslims in order to appeal to the audience out there that also doesn't like Muslims...

If the article you've posted is more of the same, then at least IanDB had a reasonably reason for pposting the article he did and seems to dislike right-wing media sources as much as most folk here do, even if I think his attempt at balance failed...

Violet...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I asked you for FACTS. What you just came up with weren't FACTS at all, but that you've formed an opinion based on supposed unverified interviews with a few people, which has then been presented as a thing where any problems are widespread.

Please read the post from someone in this thread who's wife's family lives near Bethlehem and who pointed out that this article is full of crap and written to appeal to the many anti-Muslim bigots amongst its readership. Even IanDB one said he was posting it as a sort of 'balance'to articles he claims are bigoted against Jews. So even though he's admitted that the article is bigoted and from a stinky source, yr here saying it's not bigoted??? Excuse me, but it's very bigoted when attempts are made to falsely portray something that doesn't happen much as a widespread thing. I doubt that this authors intended readership would acknowledge the author's dislike of Muslims, though, as most of them would be every bit as bigoted as the author...

btw, barb. There have been a few instances of religiously motivated attacks by Orthodox Jews on Christians in Jerusalem. Do you also consider that an important issue? And would you consider it not to be bigoted if someone claimed it was a widespread and serious problem? If you would consider it bigoted in that case, then what's the difference?

Violet...

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/09/wmid09.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/09/09/ixworld.html

'Islamic mafia' accused of persecuting Holy Land Christians
By Harry de Quetteville in Bethlehem
(Filed: 09/09/2005)

Christians in the Holy Land have handed a dossier detailing incidents of violence and intimidation by Muslim extremists to Church leaders in Jerusalem, one of whom said it was time for Christians to "raise our voices" against the sectarian violence.

The dossier includes 93 alleged incidents of abuse by an "Islamic fundamentalist mafia" against Palestinian Christians, who accused the Palestinian Authority of doing nothing to stop the attacks.


snip

But he said that the Christian community was faced with "very brutal" adversaries. "A criminal mafia and Islamic fundamentalists work together," he said. "Their interests met to take our land away." He said that one man had lost his finger in one land dispute which turned violent and that a group had attacked and injured a Greek orthodox monk at a 5th century monastery outside Bethlehem.

The dossier currently in Church hands details far worse allegations of violence, notably the torture and murder of two Christian girls in 2003 after they were deemed prostitutes. A post mortem examination reportedly proved they were virgins.

snip

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1129540575411&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Oct. 21, 2005 10:46 | Updated Oct. 25, 2005 23:16
Away from the manger - a Christian-Muslim divide
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

snip

About three years ago, unidentified gunmen opened fire at Azizeh's car on one of the main streets of the city, hitting him in the head. Shortly after the attack, and with the help of Israeli friends, he was transferred to Hadassah University Hospital in Jerusalem, where doctors managed to save his life. However, several surgeries failed to save his eyesight.

Since then, the coffee shop has closed and Azizeh, who was known as a socialite, rarely leaves his home.

Azizeh's attackers remain at large, although their identity is known to many. Only days before the shooting, Azizeh had refused to withdraw a complaint he had filed against a Muslim driver who killed two of his relatives in a car accident. The driver's family is said to have sought the help of local Fatah militiamen in "persuading" Azizeh to back off.

Regardless of the motive, the case of Azizeh, 72, is seen by many Christians in the context of a campaign allegedly waged by Muslims against the Christian minority in the city. Azizeh, they argue, would not have been targeted had he belonged to one of the large and influential Muslim clans in Bethlehem.
snip

See below for why I think this is relevant:



It does appear from the article, that this boy was treated better, and only a light sentence considered, because he is the son of a rabbi. So doesn't that show a bias in Israel in favor of Israelis, just as you were trying to show a bias of Muslims? Further, his mother didn't tell the police, and she wasn't charged at all. What would have happened if this was the son of a Muslim cleric, barb? Why would Israeli authorities favor this boy this way?

Anyone can selectively find crime stories to boost their cause, which I think is what the author of your article may have done here. The article curiously contradicts the statements of the head of the Catholics in Bethlehem (see my post #4). So, it appears to me that the sorts of divisions that your article presupposes may not be the real impetus for this sad event. How cynical that this article may be trying to turn crime stats into a Christian-Muslim thing.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/665873.html

On what in the article you're basing the claim he's being shown leniency because he's the son of a Rabbi? Unfortunately, lenient sentences for violent crimes - especially as the sentence was determined by a plea bargain (which has yet to be approved, BTW) - aren't especially uncommon in the Israeli justice system. And if he was shown such leniency, it's more than likely because he's the Chief Rabbi's son.

In any event, the article states that this is seen by Christians as a religiously-motivated attack by Muslims (an element totally missing in analog in the Israeli case you compared it to). Though that doessn't necessarily mean it was religiously motivated, it implies they have some basis for believing that, unless you have something to show it isn't?

...and rather than implying that the attack by the Rabbi's son was religiously motivated, I was implying that the other case was not, as the rather biased comments earlier quoted did imply. Crime happens everywhere.

believe it was - and you haven't given any reason or argument why they're wrong. The article in #4 contains no statements to contradict it, besides the fact that it contains the statements of Sabbah alone.

I remember articles posted here a few months ago that were about religiously-motivated attacks by Orthodox Jews against Christians in Jerusalem. Would you consider those attacks to be the same sort of thing as attacks against Christians by Muslims? And would you think it was a bit on the stinky side if a media source with a crappy reputation then used those attacks to claim this was a widespread thing and to produce a rather bigoted looking article, which got one or two DUers so excited that they went into multiple-post mode in their haste to agree with it?

Violet...

This sentence from the article you quoted casts doubt on those reports:

Muslim and Christian political leaders in the city strongly deny the existence of an organized anti-Christian campaign, insisting that the violence is mostly the result of "personally motivated" disputes that are unrelated to religion. The victims of crime include both Muslims and Christians, they add, accusing Israel and Jewish organizations of spreading lies about "Muslim persecution" of Christians.

Those are the Muslim and Christian leaders, not some Christians selectively quoted in order to stir up religious hatreds.

Edit: I'm saying that the article selectively quotes.

I dont have much more too add cause most of it has been said here already. My wife's family is from Beit Safafa, which is just 5 minutes away from Bethlehem,(1-5hours depending on checkpoint) and I can tell you without doubt that the World Nut article is complete and utter BS. Muslims and Christians in Bethlehem have always coexisted and actually have strong bonds of unity. The only division are those created by the Isrealis hoping to break the spirit of Palestinians in Bethlehem.

Your comments are appreciated. It's always good to hear stories of people of different faiths living together peacefully.

...I have lurked around for a while but find it hard to find time to post.