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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 06:33 AM
Original message
We are fed up
By Akiva Eldar

There's no need to wait for the Kadima government to be presented to the Knesset in order to declare the victory of Ariel Sharon's "path." The anticipated presentation of the Hamas government to the Palestinian parliament is the purest expression of the path for which the revered founder of Kadima strived: the path of unilateralism. The raid in Jericho - like the tractors in the occupied area between Jerusalem and Ma'aleh Adumim, known as E-1, and like the declaration that the settlement of Ariel is part and parcel of the State of Israel - guarantees that the student Ehud Olmert will yet outshine his mentor. He is showing the Jewish people and the entire world that there are only two ways: the violent status quo that the rightists would like, or a disengagement/convergence a la Kadima. Madrid, Oslo and Geneva are over and done with. From now on, Jerusalem will determine its path all by itself. And let no one pester us with road maps.

According to the polls, the Israeli public, which for years eagerly bought into the idea of an "enlightened occupation," is now going gaga over the new merchandise. Serious and clever people believe in the new Israeli start-up: an arrangement in which Side A sets the conditions without Side B.

Hamas' victory demonstrates that Palestinian public opinion has gotten the message. The great majority of Palestinians, who still favor a two-state solution, realized that Israel was not interested in Fatah, the party that represents a two-sided solution, as a party to negotiations. The chairman, Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), is still grasping onto the horns of the altar, but he has hinted that he is starting to get fed up with playing the role of the irrelevant Side B.

And if there is no need for a Side B, who needs a Side C? When Israel does as it wishes in Gaza, and unashamedly ignores its agreements with the American secretary of state, is it any wonder that the Quartet's disengagement envoy, James Wolfensohn, is packing his bags? He understood that Israel cares about the well-being, not to mention the freedom, of the Palestinians about as much as it cares about last year's snow. Four months ago, he told Haaretz that it sometimes seems as if the two sides assume that their conflict is the most important thing on earth - at a time when the world is troubled by severe poverty, epidemics and immigration problems.

>snip

Two professors, one from Harvard, the other from the University of Chicago, recently released a study that reflects growing repugnance with Israel. The study argues that Israel is a burden on the United States and that the pro-Israel policy which the Jewish lobby and Israel's friends among the Christian right have forced upon the administration blatantly contradicts the strategic interests of the superpower, as well as those of Israel.

More at;
Haaretz


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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Congressman Eliot Engel
This study of the U.S.-Israel relationship and the efforts of the pro-Israel community in the United States could not be more wrong. Israel, our lone Democratic ally in the Middle East, enjoys a strong relationship with America because it embodies our shared values of freedom and democracy.

The pro-Israel lobby in Washington exists to refute studies as these and other misinformed propaganda which erroneously contends that Israel's success, either in diplomacy, economics or politics, is due to anything other than the drive and determination of its own people. Israel has managed to stay on the map because its citizens constantly work for its betterment. It is wrong to simplify their decades of achievements, going far before its founding in 1948, to the influence of a lobby. This is a discredit not only to the Israeli people, but to the democratic principles which underlie our two societies.

As a Jewish American, I have always been a strong supporter of Israel. But as a Member of Congress, particularly one who sits on the House International Relations Committee, I have heard nearly 18 years of testimony, arguments and evidence to solidify my belief in the U.S.-Israel relationship. And, I am proud to stand with AIPAC and all Americans who support Israel to say to the world that it is only through peace with the Jewish state that the problems of the region will be solved.


source
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's nice.
Not accurate, or fact-based, or propaganda-free, or informed comment, but nice all the
same.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. So you are calling a US Represenative...
..."Not accurate, or fact-based, or propaganda-free, or informed comment, but nice all the
same.
?"
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. lol1!1! n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. the "non-response"...very apropos, but not at all unsurprising,
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. He didn't call a US Representative anything...
He was commenting on what he wrote. We are allowed to do that, aren't we??

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I didn't realise Englander was the only person supposed to reply...
I'd think very carefully of accusing people who understand that there's a world of difference between commenting on someone's statements and commenting on that person of being 'unable of reading comprehension' (btw, just having a pedantic moment, but it's *incapable*, not *unable*). See, it's within the rules at DU to comment on someone's statements (eg 'yr comment was bigoted) but it's not to comment on the person (eg 'yr a bigot'). So keeping that in mind, it's abundantly clear that Englander was talking about the Representatives comments and not about the Representative himself...

btw, I live on a continent. Englander, on the other hand, lives on a piddly little island that sees very little sunshine :)

Violet...

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. You don't live on an Island?
Did you move?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Dude, I live on a continent...
Not really sure why this is such a burning issue, but we're actually the smallest continent and the largest island...

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Uh, 'sheila' is a term for women used by sexist meatheads here...
So, please don't call me that again...

Violet...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. then don't call me "dude!"
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I didn't realise *dude* was a word which has a sexist meaning...
Exactly why is the word 'dude' offensive??
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Let it go, Vi.
It's clear, to any objective reader, what the comments were referring to, since
there isn't any mention of 'him/he' &tc, & there is mention of 'comment', it would
take a gross mis-use of language to come to the conclusion that any of my comments
could be read as an attack on Engel, they were clearly aimed at the expressed opinion.

The accusation made me laugh, really, it was rather blatant.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Question;
Are any of these sentences accurate, in a grammatical sense?

~He is/isn't accurate~

~He is/isn't fact-based~

~He is/isn't propaganda-free~

~He is/isn't informed comment~

:)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yeah, yr right...
It's kind of pointless. I think 'unable of reading comprehension' might be an example of gross misuse of language which pretty much explains everything else...

Violet...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. LMAO!!!!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. "the "non-response"...very apropos, but not at all unsurprising,"
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. How very sad for you....can't even get mockery correct.
Edited on Mon Mar-20-06 07:46 AM by Behind the Aegis
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. But I can construct a sentence correctly...
Or should that be 'can even sentence correct'? ;)

My point was only a minor one trying to get the message across that when one jumps on others for going LOL, one shouldn't then expect that their own LOL posts are any different in the big scheme of things...

Violet...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. no sense. no logic and no relevence.....
a member of congress says:

as a Member of Congress, particularly one who sits on the House International Relations Committee, I have heard nearly 18 years of testimony, arguments and evidence to solidify my belief in the U.S.-Israel relationship.

________________

and the response is:

Not accurate, or fact-based, or propaganda-free, or informed comment, but nice all the
same
_____________________


the response disqualifys a US member of congress as if the man knows nothing after 18 years of studying the matter....
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Outrageous, ain't it? n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. in terms of ones
lack of ability to make a point based on knowledge....its not outragous....i tend to words like pathetic, sad...more negative tones, for ones lack of ability to communicate
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Oh, the irony.
--...for ones lack of ability to communicate--

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. i dont write....
a sentence or a half sentence and call that communication....i dont remark about "you must be drunk" etc......whether or not i get my message across is something else, but i do the other person the honor or writing full sentences with attempts at explanations....its the minimum
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. It lessens the odds of having any comments 'mis-translated'.
Y'know, the chances of any comments being cherry-picked, or misunderstood, or
having the meaning radically altered are reduced if the comments are one-liners.
If I thought that all the disingenuous stuff wouldn't happen, then maybe I'd have
a go at some serious discussion, but having seen all the 'mind-reading', & extremely
biased attitudes expressed, one-liners it is.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. but there in lies the contradictions....
Edited on Mon Mar-20-06 05:14 PM by pelsar
its in the "cherry picking" that one finds the contradictions in ones viewpoints ....and when pointed out, one runs for cover complaining " taken out of context or "cherry picked" when in reality many times its being caught in a double standard or contradiction.....(not always....)

biased attitudes?.....they abound here on both sides of the line.....its in the communication where sometimes somewhere something interesting pops up....at the very least one gets to see just how impossible it can be to communicate even when the language is the same.....

oh i should mention i wasnt including myself when i mentioned "biased attitude"...i decided i'm the last of the open minded/liberals here.....and i stay to be a shining example of open liberalness...until tombstoned
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
21. Israel owns the policies of Sharon and we own the policies of
George Bush. Let us work to change both. They are proscriptions for endless war which at best bring brutal hollow victories.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-20-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
26. so?......
Two professors, one from Harvard, the other from the University of Chicago, recently released a study that reflects growing repugnance with Israel.

well that can be little more than the "evil israeli" syndrome.....given that israel is not even close to the bottom of list of repugnent regimes which really are racist, really do carpet bomb, really do massacre, really do kill foreigners in subway stations intentionally.....what would make people think that israel is so repugnent?...either ignorence or simply fed up with those damn jews refusing to just give up like they used to......

maybe we should just carpet bomb jenin, really massacre them like in serbia...then we'll be like all the other nations, and nobody will notice it. All the internationals will of course run away as will the journalists since then we really will go out and target them (and they'll leave real quick....)

sounds like a plan....one that will probably work as well.

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