Peretz: Gaza beach blast may have internal Palestinian cause

Then again, it could have been Kaiser Soze.

http://www.horrorflix.net/movies/the-usual-suspects.html

This is classic PR strategy for dealing with unpleasant situations, spread uncertainly and doubt, multiply possible causes, and delay.

Defense Minister Amir Peretz said Sunday that the deaths of seven Palestinian civilians on a Gaza beach Friday could have been down to "internal Palestinian causes," rather than by Israel Defense Forces artillery fire.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel was conducting an honest investigation into the matter. "This unfortunate experience teaches that legends are created around things like this," the prime minister said, ahead of a trip to the United Kingdom where he is to meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair on Monday.

An investigative panel, headed by an IDF general, was appointed to determine the circumstances of the incident and is looking into this possibility, while also examining whether IDF artillery fire was responsible, Peretz told the cabinet on Sunday during a briefing on the initial findings of the investigation.

The findings, submitted by the panel to the defense minister on Saturday evening, point to IDF shelling as the cause of the blast. Of six shells fired in the area, said Peretz, the landing site of one remained unaccounted for. However, he added, there is a gap between the time in which the shells were fired and that of the explosion on the beach.

Haaretz

what the cause was; and according to the article, neither does Peretz. But in answer to your dismissive editorial, let me just point out that if this was Palestinian-caused, it wouldn't be the first time such an accident was blamed by Hamas on Israel; remember that truck that exploded in September*?

*Last September, a truck carrying explosives exploded during a Hamas rally, killing 19 people. Hamas blamed Israel and "responded" by firing 40 Qassams, despite the fact that even (non-Hamas) Palestinian sources agreed the cause of the explosion was mishandling of the ordnance.

Although on the beach seems a bit odd. I'm saying Peretz has obvious reasons to muddy the water and spread doubt. If one can question the veracity of Hamas, one can question the veracity of Peretz, I would think. And I do.

Those children blew themselves up plotting against Israel. Of course! Why couldn't I see that before? They were building explosive picnic goodies on the beach. Must all blame for the miserable situation there be laid at the doorstep of the Palastinians?

If it was a dud which went off, there's actually a greater danger on the beach. It can get covered in sand quite easily and quickly, and then someone unwarily steps on it; or alternatively, some kids starts playing around with it (and lest you think that's unlikely, I've personally seen kids kick around a tail assembly they found - in an area where we were explicitly warned there was possibly unexploded ordnance).

Unfortunately, the Palestinians aren't cooperating with the investigation, which doesn't help:



Haaretz

YNet

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According to israeli TV news parts of the beaches have been mined...similar to areas around the border fence:


On a few occasions, troops have gone just across the border to neutralize Palestinian mines and bombs placed along or near Gaza's perimeter fence.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14705309.htm

they exist....palestenains plant them...... (arent they supposed to be illegal or something?)

how about the young Muhammad Al-Dura...one look at the bullet holes in the wall shows they werent shot from the israeli post (sharp angle)

how about the jenin "massacre"..that didnt happen?

perhaps all those palestenian "work accidents" that they blame israel for.....never happened?

n/t

'Monday, 4 November, 2002, 05:48 GMT
Amnesty says Jenin operation 'war crime'

BBC News
The human rights organisation, Amnesty International, has accused the Israeli army of committing war crimes during its incursions into the West Bank towns of Jenin and Nablus earlier this year.

>snip

Amnesty says the army killed civilians, tortured prisoners, destroyed houses and prevented the arrival of humanitarian aid in the Palestinian towns.

While early Palestinian claims that hundreds of people were massacred have now been discounted, Amnesty believes that over 50 Palestinians were killed in the fighting in Jenin, and at least another 80 in Nablus, many of them civilians.

Women and children were among the dead. '

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2396071.stm

'Israel and the Occupied Territories
Shielded from scrutiny: IDF violations in Jenin and Nablus

>snip

Unlawful killings

According to hospital lists reviewed by Amnesty International there were 54 Palestinian deaths between 3 and 17 April 2002 in both Jenin refugee camp and Jenin city as a result of the incursion and subsequent fighting. This figure includes seven women, four children and six men over the age of 55. Six had been crushed by houses. The body of one person known to have died by being crushed in his house has not been recovered.

The records of Palestinians killed in the incursion and admitted to Jenin City Hospital reflect the impact of the IDF blockade round the hospital between 5 and 15 April. Five bodies were brought to the hospital, which is just at the edge of the refugee camp, on 3 April, the first day of the IDF incursion into the camp. One body was brought in on 4 April. After that the hospital and the camp were under tight siege and although the hospital stands at the entrance to the camp, not a single corpse was brought into the hospital from 5 until 15 April, the day after a petition filed by two human rights organizations, Adalah and LAW, before the Israeli High Court resulted in the State agreeing to allow the ICRC access to the refugee camp. Most bodies of those fighters or those not involved in fighting killed between 5 and 15 April remained where they lay; a few were taken from streets to homes, a few were buried by their families in yards or back gardens, and four were taken to the al-Razi Hospital. Amnesty International delegates who entered the refugee camp on the departure of the IDF on 17 April found ruins smelling of death, with parts of human bodies sticking out of the rubble of destroyed houses.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE151432002

50 palestenains dead....23 israelis....during a urban battle

hardly a "massacre" (somebody seen the movie jenin jenin...and believed it all?)

since you cited the BBC:

'No Jenin massacre' says rights group

UN says no massacre in Jenin

And even accepting for the sake of argument that the Amnesty report is correct in all its particulars, a massacre is a war crime, but not every war crime is a massacre - and the report you cited makes no substantiation of the claims of a massacre (which is the point under discussion, remember)

mas·sa·cre (măs'ə-kər)
n.
The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.


From your link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1965471.stm

<snip>

"Human Rights Watch says at least 52 Palestinians died of whom 22 were civilians. Many of the civilians were killed wilfully and unlawfully the report says."

<snip>

"Palestinian civilians were used as human shields and the Israeli army employed indiscriminate and excessive force, the report says.

The report gives examples - it says that a 57-year-old Palestinian man Kamil Sagir was shot and then run over by Israeli tanks even though his wheelchair was flying a white flag.

Another case is that of 37-year-old Jamil Fayed, a paralysed man who was crushed in the rubble of his home."


Is 22 dead civilians considered a large number. I would say so.

The Israeli army employed indiscriminate force. Says so right in the article.

Shooting a man in a wheelchair then running him over with a tank. Crushing a paralyzed man in the rubble of his home. Is this cruel? Again I would say yes.

So you have a large number of civilians killed, indiscriminate force was used, and the killings were cruel.

A massacre.

Actually the IDF used such a small amount of force that it probably wont repeat such mistakes.....I suppose i could give a quick course in what urban combat is all about, but i suspect that the realities of it wouldnt really mean anything to those dont really are at least curious.

bottom line?....the actual force used, the non use of anti tank weapons, cannon fire at suspected houses etc cost the IDF 23 soldiers.....probably wont happen again. Next time they'll probably use the more conventional accepted methods used in urban combat.

which isn't necessarily the case - 22 civilians is a very low rate for urban combat - especially when the combatants booby-trapped the area, and more importantly, some civilians took part in the fighting.

And like I said below - maybe you should write to HRW and tell them they don't know what they're talking about?

You're misrepresenting/misunderstanding the claims made, the articles you've posted provide
evidence of indiscrimate, unlawful & wilful killing of innocents, & the use of civilians as
human shields, & the use of torture, & the denial of access of ngos to the refugee camp, &
of ambulances being attacked, &tc, &tc, &tc.

there was no massacre. Maybe you should write the BBC, HRW, and the UN and explain to them that they don't know the meaning of the word?

You're misrepresenting/misunderstanding the claims made..........

ok...explain....and while your at it, explain why HRW, BBC and the UN also misunderstand....

take some time and write it up......back up a claim that your usual sources all disagree with you.

to with pride.

are a "given"....its the nature of it.....more so when the one side insists on wearing civilian clothes...which then the "gullable" can then show as "proof" that civilians were killed.

that a massacre took place?

was that he'd died after going on hunger strike;


1977: Steve Biko dies in custody
The leader of the black consciousness movement in South Africa, Steve Biko, has died in police custody.

The 30-year-old's death was confirmed by the commissioner of police, General Gert Prinsloo, today.

It is understood Mr Biko died in hospital in Pretoria. The government minister of Justice and Police, James Kruger, stated that Mr Biko had been transferred 740 miles (1,191 km) from Port Elizabeth to Pretoria for medical attention following a seven-day hunger strike.

Mr Biko had been in custody since 18 August when he was arrested and detained under the Terrorism Act. He is the 20th person to die in custody during the past 18 months.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/12/newsid_3573000/3573054.stm

the downfall of the Israel-allied Apartheid govt, there was an admission that he was assaulted.

"In 1997 Biko's killers appeared before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) to request for amnesty for the death of Biko. However, they only claimed responsibility for assaulting him and maintained that his death was accidental. They also testified that they lied about his date of death. The family of Biko opposed the TRC hearings on the grounds that it would rob them of justice. They accused the policeman responsible for Biko's death, Harold Synman, for adding more lies about Biko's death."

Most reports say that he died from brain-injury following torture.

I hope following this carnage in the Middle East that there is a Israel/Palestine version of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The we will get full details on incidents like the shelling of a Gaza beach.

Maybe in a decade or so, the crew of the gunboat/Howitzers will give the details of they were part
of incidents like these, of how they were complicit in the killing of a family having a picnic on
a June summer's day.

see post #1

<snip>

"The operational inquiry by the defense establishment into the Gaza beach incident is about to be completed. Last night news spread that intelligence material suggests the possibility that the incident was caused by the detonation of Palestinian explosives. All signs indicate that the details of that report are not sufficiently substantiated. If, following the inquiry, there is a change in the rules of engagement regarding Qassam rocket launchers, it would apply primarily to artillery fire, which was the matter in dispute."

<snip>

"The IDF has located almost every 155-millimeter artillery shell that was fired in the incident's vicinity. A total of six such shells were fired. GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant was in charge of the overall inquiry, which included representatives from the air force, navy, the artillery unit in question and intelligence. As of last night the Palestinian refused to reveal the precise location where the seven family members were killed.

The incident on the Gaza beach occured between 4:30 P.M. and 5 P.M., apparently at 4:50 P.M. After the explosion on the beach, an attack from the air hit Hamas Qassam launchers. That was at 5:15 P.M. Israeli artillery fired the six shells between 4:31 P.M. and 4:48 P.M. Five of them were seen to explode, in surveillance from land, sea and radar. One shell was not observed exploding and it is not known what happened to it.

Following the five shells, there was no sign of any unusual movement on the beach. After the land-based artillery fire, for seven minutes there were several salvos from a 76-millimeter canon, fired from a naval missile boat. At 5:10 P.M. a missile was also fired from the air. At 5:02 Southern Command received the first report of Palestinian casualties on the Gaza beach."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/725195.html

'Jun. 9, 2006 12:14

Israel Navy shelling Kassam launch sites in Gaza

The Israel Navy was shelling Kassam rocket launch sites in the Gaza Strip Friday in response to the three Kassams fired at Israel during the morning.

Two rockets landed early Friday morning in Sderot. One caused some damage to a building.

A third rocket was fired a few hours later and landed in open territory in Sderot, wounding no one and causing no damage.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1149572648098&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

'Beach strike shakes Hamas cease-fire
Seven Palestinians die while picnicking on beach

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells onto a northern Gaza beach Friday, killing at least seven people and prompting the military wing of Hamas to call off a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/index.html

Video on the BBC News site, go to 1:10 & see the Israeli navy gunboat directly off the Gaza
beach that was shelled;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5065008.stm

...that whoppin' great gunboat is about to go down the memory hole.

Let's see if it's mentioned when the IDF releases the final results of its whitewash..err..probe.

Google cache;

'Handout photograph released by Israeli army shows Israeli navy vessel shelling beach in northern Gaza

An Israeli navy vessel shells a beach in northern Gaza Strip in this handout photograph taken June 9, 2006. Seven members of a Palestinian family, including three children, were killed on a day out at the seaside in the Gaza Strip when they came under fire from Israeli gunboats and artillery. REUTERS/IDF-HO (PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES)'

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:0UFK56amv1AJ:newsbot.msnbc.msn.com/n/%3Fid%3D33447791+Israeli+navy+vessel+shelling&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2

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By Eric Silver in Jerusalem
Published: 10 June 2006

Israeli naval gunboats killed at least seven Palestinian civilians and wounded about 40 others as they relaxed in the summer heat on a beach in northern Gaza yesterday. Palestinian medical sources said that eight of the dead were from one family. The total included six women and a three-year-old girl.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article754405.ece

or rebut it?

If the latter, the article is several days old and predates the beginning of doubts being publicly aired.

Also, they don't seem to be so sure of their facts:

of the detainees held at Gitmo, that their suicide was only a calculated PR move, and not a result of the injustice of holding these young people for years without charge.

how israeli bullets turned 90° in flight....and how people actually believe it....

Chris McGreal in Sderot
Tuesday June 13, 2006
The Guardian

Sympathy for Huda Ghalia had largely evaporated from the streets of Sderot yesterday after the Israeli town endured a weekend pounding by scores of Palestinian missiles, and the army attempted to cast doubt on its responsibility for wiping out most of the Palestinian child's family.

Images of the 10-year-old girl wailing after a shell landed on her family's picnic on a Gaza beach on Friday, killing seven people including all Huda's siblings, horrified many Israelis usually indifferent to Palestinian suffering.

>snip

Israel used to respond with ground assaults but since its withdrawal from Gaza in September it has used artillery barrages. The army has dropped 6,000 shells since the beginning of April, claiming the lives of elderly farmers, children and women.

Those deaths went largely unnoticed in Sderot, as did the destruction of another Gaza family three weeks ago when an Israeli airforce missile attack on Islamic Jihad activists also wiped out three generations of one family. Among the survivors was three-year-old Maria Aman, who is paralysed from the neck down. Her uncle Nahed can only breathe with a respirator.

The army has suggested that the explosion that killed Huda Ghalia's family was caused by a Palestinian rocket. Ms Tyayri seized on that yesterday. "I don't want to be unpleasant but did you see any pictures of the family dying? How do we know they are dead? How do we know who killed them?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1796245,00.html

By Storer H. Rowley
Tribune staff reporter
Published June 12, 2006

BEIT LAHIYA, Gaza Strip -- Sitting on a hospital bed Sunday clutching two white teddy bears, Hadeel Ghalia said the shrapnel in her neck didn't hurt as much as the day before, but she missed her brother and hoped to spend her shekels to buy him Bambas, the peanut butter crisps she loves.

Hadeel is 8, and she has been told that her baby brother, Haitham, 4 months, is dead, but the news hasn't really sunk in. The Palestinian girl was shellshocked for 24 hours, and she explained how she took care of him Friday after the explosions that shattered picnics on a Beit Lahiya beach killed nearly her entire family--father, mother, brother and four half-sisters.

"I swam and played on the beach and then my father called me to eat, and I was running toward him when they threw a bomb at us," she said. "I saw my father crying. I saw children crying and looking for their families. I saw shattered bodies. I saw my brother (Haitham) sleeping in the sand. His body was covered with sand and there was blood coming from his leg. I brought a bottle of water and a cloth and cleaned his body, and I moved him to a clean blanket and stayed by him. I tried to wake him up, but he never woke up."

Her account was related by a hospital official.

The images of the explosions ripping through families picnicking on a Gaza beach have caused a new spasm of violence between Israelis and Palestinians, and they have been splashed across TV screens--most memorably the sight of Hadeel's half-sister Huda, 13, running across the sand, crying and screaming, "Papa, Papa, Papa," as most of her family lay dead, dying or wounded. Forty others were wounded in the blast.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0606120152jun12,1,6705321.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

"snip
Palestinians have blamed the deaths on an Israeli artillery round. Israeli military officials said Tuesday the military's investigation shows the deaths likely were caused by a mine planted by militants from the Palestinians' ruling Hamas party." snip
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/sns-ap-israel-airstrike,1,1343445.story?coll=chi-newsroom-hed

Criminal investigates self.

Criminal exonerates self.

Criminal blames victim.

Who believes criminal?

Who believes the militants?

Last Updated: Monday, 12 June 2006, 05:39 GMT 06:39 UK

>snip

"Diabolical spiral"

The deaths of seven members of a Palestinian family - killed by Israeli shells on a beach in Gaza on Friday - arouse deep concern in several European papers.

The deaths have brought Gaza to boiling point and tensions are likely to escalate on both sides, says Germany's Frankfurter Rundschau.

The events illustrated "in a horrifying way" how quickly the Middle East conflict could turn into "an explosive powder keg," the paper writes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5070444.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5074792.stm

Last Updated: Tuesday, 13 June 2006, 09:28 GMT 10:28 UKBeach deaths 'not Israel's fault'

Palestinian PM Ismail Haniya visited the wounded in hospital
An Israeli military inquiry into the deaths of eight Palestinians on a Gaza beach is close to deciding Israel was not responsible, media reports say.
The explosion was initially blamed on Israeli shelling near the area where a family was enjoying a picnic.

The internal probe is based on TV film of the aftermath and shrapnel taken from injured being treated in Israel.

Correspondents say the findings will not be conclusive and are likely to be dismissed by the Palestinians.
snip

Will it be necessary to provide a defintion of 'not be conclusive'?

except for your own needed edification

...which means that YOU are muddying the water and trying to spread doubt on findings and investigations that Israel did not do it and that the Palestinians are responsible.

Right here.

Talk about taking responsibility, eh?

PB