Pink Floyd's Roger Waters urges Israel to 'tear down the wall'

<snip>

"Pink Floyd frontman Roger Waters, who inspired the rock band's iconic album "The Wall," scrawled "tear down the wall" on the concrete panels of Israel's West Bank barrier on Wednesday.

The barrier was the first stop on a visit to Israel and the Palestinian territories for Waters, who had been criticized by some fans for planning to play a concert in Israel.

"It's a horrific edifice, this thing," Waters told reporters as he stood beside a section of the barrier in Bethlehem.

"I've seen pictures of it, I've heard a lot about it but without being here you can't imagine how extraordinarily oppressive it is and how sad it is to see these people coming through these little holes," he added. "It's craziness."

Waters added to graffiti with red spray paint and a marker pen. Waters was lyricist, songwriter and singer for Pink Floyd, the former British rock group famous for "The Wall" and "The Dark Side of the Moon."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/729817.html

it also, in effect, annexes Palestinian land to Israel. It has been ruled illegal by the International Court of Justice.

http://stopthewall.org/

:eyes:

we are talking about building a wall and mexico has never attacked us! The Palestinians constantly attack Israel. The wall is justified. I don't care if its chic with the far left loonies and closet anti-semites to bash it or not.Try reading history. Palestine sided against Israelis in 4 seperate wars and lost every single time. The consipred with Nazi's, and celibrate "the catastrophe" i.e. the creation of Israel.

member of the Democratic Party in congress supports Israel and even Howard Dean and members of the Progressive caucus i.e. Bernie Sanders and Barney Franks. As did former Senator Wellstone. Dean supported the wall in his run for president. These people aren't pandering. The progressive caucus takes controversial stands all the time. They do it because it is right.

by military force.

It seperates Palestinians from their own farmlands. It seperates Palestinians from other Palestinian communities.

Please address the topic of the suffering this wall will bring to Palestinian people, and the reason Israel insisted it go deep into the West Bank.

The ruling of the International court actually specifically condemned that aspect of it, and probably would not have ruled against it if it were placed on the "Green Line", internationally recognized border between the West Bank and Israel.

If not, it's completely different to the situation with the wall in the West Bank, as it's not being built in Israel, but in the West Bank...

Suggesting that anyone who opposes the route of the wall are 'far left loonies and closet anti-semites' is exactly the same tactic as conservative supporters of the war in Iraq calling anyone who opposes the war as being far left loonies and Unamerican...

As for reading history, I've read a fair bit of it, and the one-sided version that you attempt to portray where the Palestinians are Evil and Israel is Good isn't history, but relying on propaganda. As for 'celebrating' the Nakba, it's more mourning than anything else for the expulsion and fleeing of Palestinians from their homes in Israel and the collapse of their lives as they knew them. If anyone has a problem with that, then they need to take a good long look at themselves and ask themselves where the hate comes from that drives them to begrudge the Palestinian people the right to even mourn....

but I feel MUCH better knowing that Roger Waters has weighed in on the I/P conflict.

Personally I think Eddie Vedder carries much more weight, but to be honest, if Roger Waters had said that he thinks the wall is a wonderful thing the same people who are making out his opinion isn't worth a shit would be putting him up on a pedestal and claiming him as carrying a whole lot of weight on the topic...

Pink Floyd is just not the same w/out Gilmore. Waters can express whatever opinion he wants obviously, but I wonder if he visited the barrier to promote his concert or because he really wanted to see it.

I've never been a Pink Floyd fan, even the old Sid Barrett stuff, so I don't know anything about Roger Waters political views...

I never knew Roger Waters was an anti-semite...:sarcasm:

I think you'd feel a little differently about Walls if you'd ever been on the inside of a few.

As if a Wall ever solved anything.

because parties are elected in Palestine that do not even recognize Israel's right to exist. They teach anti-semitism in their public schools. Arafats con woman of a wife lived in France and said if she had a son she would be honored for him to be a suicide bomber. As for the wall going into Palestinian territory: The Israeli supreme court has scaled the wall back and settlements are being uprooted by the Israeli's. The original Partition plan also cut Jewish communities off from one another and they still accepted it for the sake of peace. If the Palestinians have lost land it is because of their taking the side against Israel in every war and losing. The US has gotten 90% of it's lands by far less ethical means. Perhaps if Israel had a negotiating partner on the other side things could be ammended. Unfortunately, Palestinians would rather continue terrorism than settle for only part of the partitioned land. Nevermind there has never been an independant nation called Palestine. I agree that a wall won't solve the root problem but we are really starting to run out of options here.

'The wall is being built

*because parties are elected in Palestine that do no even recognize Israel's right to exist.'

Wrong. The wall was being planned and constructed long before Hamas were elected. Prior to that the PA had recognized Israel's right to exist...

They teach anti-semitism in their public schools.

Even if that were true, that's not a reason to build a wall deep inside territory that doesn't belong to Israel...

Arafats con woman of a wife lived in France and said if she had a son she would be honored for him to be a suicide bomber.

See above...

As for the wall going into Palestinian territory: The Israeli supreme court has scaled the wall back and settlements are being uprooted by the Israeli's.

And the wall is still being built in Palestinian territory. Some sections in and around Jerusalem have been rerouted due to legal challenges, but that is only small sections and not the entire thing that's in Palestinian territory...

The original Partition plan also cut Jewish communities off from one another and they still accepted it for the sake of peace.

That's not entirely correct either. The Partition plan was accepted with the belief that even though it wasn't everything the Zionists had wanted, they could get more land later on...

If the Palestinians have lost land it is because of their taking the side against Israel in every war and losing.

You do realise the acquisition of territory by war is illegal, don't you? Doesn't matter who sided with who and why, it's still illegal...

The US has gotten 90% of it's lands by far less ethical means.

And how many centuries ago was that? I hope yr not using that as an excuse for why Israel should be able to claim some ownership over the West Bank now in the 20th century. After all, women weren't allowed to vote right up till the start of last century, and the logic you used would lead to the conclusion that women shouldn't be allowed to vote now coz they weren't allowed to centuries ago...


Perhaps if Israel had a negotiating partner on the other side things could be ammended.

Instead of trotting out the same worn-out talking points, why not look at reality? The reality is that in the past the Palestinians have been willing to negotiate, and the reality is that while previous Israeli leaders may have been interested in negotiating, Sharon was totally opposed to it...


Unfortunately, Palestinians would rather continue terrorism than settle for only part of the partitioned land.

When you refer to terrorists, you should point out that terrorists are those folk who attack civilians (and that applies no matter if they're Israeli or Palestinian), not Palestinians in general. Because yr comment, apart from making a sweeping generalisation, is incorrect as a recent poll has showed that a large majority of Palestinians polled want peace with Israel...

Nevermind there has never been an independant nation called Palestine.

And yr point is?

I agree that a wall won't solve the root problem but we are really starting to run out of options here.

'We'? I thought you were an American, not an Israeli.

For some, they never a look at where the wall goes, its placement deep into the West Bank. Never mind what kind of suffering is befalling whole Palestinian communities because this wall will mean they will not be able to access their land, or that it will mean Palestinian communities will be separated from other Palestinian communities. Never mention that the wall effectively annexes to Israel land taken by military force. Never mention that if this monstrosity were built on the Israeli side of the Green line, that it would have probably not have been declared illegal by the International court.

This wall will not bring peace. It will serve to cause more conflict, more suffering, for both Israelis and Palestinians.

These things are addressed here:
http://stopthewall.org/

Also here:
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_15.shtml

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I've read the article and there's nothing there. Unless you consider any criticism of Israeli policy to be Antisemitic, then I'm doubtful you can see anything there either...

Never said Mr Waters made any anti-semitic comments. It's not a matter of anti-semitism, it's a matter of logic.

The security fence (the "horific edifice" according to Rogers) has cut the number of suicide bombings significantly...is that a bad thing? If so, why? In addition, 95% of the barrier is NOT a wall.

I've always liked Pink Floyd, but I certainly don't have to like the politics of an aging rock musician.
A "wall" can always be torn down. Lives and limbs destroyed by suicide bombers can't be replaced.

Perhaps once the suicide bombing stops and Israel is next door to a nation willing to live in peace, Roger return to Israel and write a bit mor graffitti. Maybe even ride a school bus or two. Enjoy a slice of Pizza near where the "wall" used to be.

When will Pink Floyd be playing Gaza City?

Why does it separate Palestinian communities from other Palestinian communities?
Will the Wall prevent the bulldozers from destroying more Palestinian homes? Will it prevent the Israelis from destroying more Palestinian olive trees? Or separating them from their farmland?

You are right about one thing. Walls can be torn down. This wall will come down.

There were approximatley 150 suicide bombings since 2000. What nation would tolerate such actions? Why must Israel be forced to accept the brutality passively, while no other people on the planet would?

Trees can be replanted (as many have been) The "wall" keeps the Israelis from having to make incursions and destroying Palestinian property and lives. Is that a bad thing? Would you prefer that suicide bombers kill Israelis and Israelis kill Palestinians?

The only Palestinian homes being destroyed these days are those destroyed by the palestinians themselves in Gaza.

"The wall will come down"....as soon as Hamas and the Palestinians opt for a democratic nation living peacefully next to its neighbors. Until then the "wall" is a necessary evil, which mitigates an unecessary evil.

along the Green line. Israel has admitted that it is about annexing land.
You seem clueless about the real suffering this is causing Palestinian communities, it is not just about real estate. Whole communities are cut-off from their own farmland. Some communities are literally surrounded by this monster on three sides.

Read more here: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_15.shtml

The Green line is the place where invading Arab armies were stopped. There's nothing magical about it, and it's not a border. Israel should place their security barrier anywhere they feel is necessary in order to save lives.

As mentioned, walls can be torn down. A peaceful settlement is the way to insure that it will be. In the meantime, as long as suicide bombers are trying to enter Israel (for what purpose? to plant olive trees?) the "wall" remains a passive option which saves lives on both sides.

that matter to Israel.
From a human rights or international law perspective, it is a disgrace.

Passive in the sense that it does not require Israel to send tanks and fighting men into Palestinian towns.

A disgrace? Not nearly as disgraceful as suicide bombing restaurants and school buses.

Surely "international law" does not require that Israeli citizens be slaughtered at the whim of the "freedom fighters"...

I noticed you do it on a regular basis with the term Palestinian as well. I assume that the quotation marks are a sign of denial of these things? I find putting quotation marks around the term Palestinian in that way every bit as offensive as if someone were to do it when speaking of Israelis...

btw, you might like to check out what international law has to say on the route the barrier's taking...

Because you keep on saying things about suicide bombers trying to enter Israel. What you actually mean is that there is a border when it comes to defining where Israel begins and ends, and not one inch of it should ever become part of the future Palestinian state, but it becomes the Magic Green Line to be sneered at when it comes to discussing Palestinian territory that Israel wants to take....

Separation fence would benefit Israelis and Palestinians – if it were built on the 1967 border

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3266910,00.html

<snip>

"Two moving and interesting sentences in Eli Cohen's excellent series about the separation fence were uttered by two Palestinian villagers, after they expressed their completely justified opposition to the construction of the West Bank fence on their land. Looking straight into the camera, they said, "If the Israelis would have built the fence on the 1967 border we would have helped them build it. We would have even sent our workers and materials to build it."

These words epitomize the scope of the opportunity Israel has wasted with respect to the separation fence. The fact that Israel is building a wall to separate itself from the Palestinians is not the root of the problem here. Rather, it is the route of that fence, which in many places (thankfully, not all places) cuts belligerently across the '67 border, which in international diplomatic terminology is the only recognized border between Israelis and Palestinians, at least until an agreement signed by both sides establishes a new border."

<snip>

"Crossing the legitimate border in order to annex additional lands to Israel, or even worse, to provide better security to residents of settlements, has turned entire villages into open-air prisons. It has cut villages off from their fields, and increased the tortuous path locals are forced to take to reach their homes.

Even those who believe (not including me) that settlements should be left alone until we reach a final-status agreement with the Palestinians, we could still have made due with a security fence that surrounded the settlements, and provided security escorts along the roads to Israel. But there is no justification for protecting settlers' access roads to Israel with a security fence at a cost of imprisoning entire Palestinian villagers."

You seem to be ignoring some important points. The barrier is being constructed in a way that takes in Palestinian territory. Its purpose was and is not for security but to grab as much Palestinian land as possible before a negotiated settlement happens...

You claim it keeps Israel from making incursions and destroying Palestinian property and lives. That's complete nonsense....

Israel Demolishes Palestinian Homes

Ramallah, Jun 12 (Prensa Latina) Troops of the Israeli army continued demolishing a group of Palestinian houses in the West Bank city of Jenin, WAFA agency revealed Monday.


Using bulldozers and 12 tanks, the soldiers destroyed a home in a village of the southwestern sector, said Tareq Qabha, head of Toura al Kharbia Rural Council.

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B9988D00A-F593-4BC4-A6D8-2C858904999B%7D)&language=EN

Huge rise recorded in number of houses IDF razes in arrest raids

A Haaretz inquiry reveals that the Israel Defense Forces has increased its use of home demolitions during West Bank arrest raids since a ban on the forced entry of Palestinian civilians into homes of barricaded fugitives.

When the High Court of Justice banned the "neighbor procedure" eight months ago, senior Israel Defense Forces officers warned that this would likely endanger soldiers' lives. Haaretz has learned that new arrest procedures are not any more dangerous to soldiers, but that is because the IDF is using more aggressive tactics during the actual operations.

IDF sources say that the ban diminishes the tactical options of the officers. "The result is that very quickly we escalate in means, in other words, we use the bulldozers," one officer says.

In early October 2005, the High Court justices accepted the petition of human rights organizations against the "neighbor procedure." This tactic, employed hundreds of times in the territories during the first intifada, involved forcing the Palestinian neighbors of wanted militants to enter the homes of the barricaded fugitives in an effort to convince them to surrender, and consequently, also bring out information for the army on the conditions inside the home.

This forcing of Palestinian civilians to act as "agents" for the IDF drew intense public criticism, especially when a Palestinian from a village in the northern West Bank was shot and killed by his barricaded neighbor during the application of the "neighbor procedure."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/727296.html

I could understand it if he'd actually said something Antisemitic, but as yr now agreeing that he didn't, I don't understand why you posted what you did about him....

There's nothing at all to prove that the barrier has been the reason for the drop in suicide bombings - to claim it does totally ignores other factors at play. Besides, as missiles seem to be the new mode of operation, I can't see how any sort of barrier will stop those...

From reading yr posts, you focus only on harm being done to Israelis. What about Palestinians? You use security to justify some untenable positions towards the Palestinians, but why is it that you don't seem to feel the same way about Palestinians being killed?

I believe that Israel is about 20% Arab. Why do you believe his criticism speaks only to the Jews in Israel?

PB

...Jerusalem.

But Democratic Underground is not Usenet where every thought is accepted merely because there is no filter for it. Nor is there a burden on Democratic Underground to give credence to all ideas on a topic- this is a website with a stated slant toward progressive politics and ideas. The conservative slant to some commentary here, the quickness to impugn the character of those critical of Israel or the outright labeling of progressives critical of Israel as anti-Semites seems unusual and out of place with the character stated purpose of Democratic Underground.

PB

<snip>

"About an hour after his concert began, Roger Waters told the audience about a trip he took to the Middle East when he was 17. For some reason, he got stuck in Beirut and had to hitchhike home to England. The wonderful hospitality of a Lebanese family during that hard time "changed my life," he said.

Just before the end of the concert, Waters addressed his audience again. "I believe we need this generation of Israelis to tear down the walls and make peace with their neighbors," he said, setting off a round of cheers.

Tens of thousands of Israelis flocked to the mixed Arab-Jewish town of Neveh Shalom last night for the single performance by the British rock star - the founder of Pink Floyd, which produced the legendary album The Wall.

An estimated 50,000 gathered in a hastily prepared outdoor venue in a field near Neveh Shalom, which is located between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Hours before the performance, cars were gridlocked in all directions in one of Israel's worst traffic jams ever."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730644.html

"Roger Waters calls on audience to 'tear down the walls'"

Oh yeah, and while you're at it buy a few copies of "The Wall" for er, palestine and all that.
Next venue, Gaza City.

Maybe after they "tear down the wall, Roger will return to israel and ride a few school buses (without his body guards)

<snip>

"Right-wing activists Baruch Marzel and Itamar Ben-Gvir petitioned the Jerusalem Magistrate's Court on Friday to detain legendary British rock musician Roger Waters before he left Israel.

The two submitted a criminal accusation against Waters in which they claimed that the former Pink Floyd front man, had destroyed land and ruined IDF property when he spray-painted the separation fence adjacent to Bethlehem.

The day before Thursday's sellout concert at Neveh Shalom Waters painted the words 'No Thought Control' on the fence."


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885833805&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull