Israelis can learn from white South Africans

I call on brave Israelis to understand the lessons, which brave white South Africans understood, and to engage in a voluntary process with Palestinians of dismantling completely, starting today, the system of racist laws, walls and settler colonies that are imprisoning both people in perpetual and endless and escalating bloodshed. It needs to stop now.

The eulogy that Rabbi Yakov Perin gave for Baruch Goldstein, the Israeli settler who murdered 29 Palestinians in Hebron in 1994. He said, “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” And this kind of racism is clearly on display in the Israeli reaction to the capture of its soldier in the Gaza Strip by the Palestinian resistance. In fact, last week here in Amman, the Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said explicitly that the lives of Israeli Jews are more important than the lives of Palestinians.

And we see that reflected also in the world reaction. Is it not astonishing that the entire world knows the name and face of the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, while the hundreds of Palestinian children held in Israel's dungeons, not to mention 10,000 adult prisoners, thousands held without charge and trial, abducted from their homes in the middle of the night by Israeli occupation forces, remain nameless and faceless before a silent world?

And I want to say that it's very deeply painful to me as a Palestinian that while Palestinians in Gaza are demonstrating, the families of prisoners are demonstrating to urge the resistance not to release the soldier until their prisoners and hostages held by Israel are released, that the Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas rushed to condemn the legitimate conventional military operation carried out by the resistance and rushed to send his security forces to hunt for the captured soldier on Israel's behalf, when never once in history has he deployed his forces to protect and defend his own people against Israel's daily massacres. It's becoming unavoidable to many Palestinians, if not most, that Abbas is engaged in open collaboration with the occupation.

And a final point, that as far as Israel is concerned, it is rapidly becoming a failed state, unable to learn any lessons from its past. It's now repeating in Gaza and the West Bank all the mistakes of its invasion and occupation of Lebanon. And I believe that if it doesn't drastically and dramatically change course, it will self-destruct within a decade, perhaps taking everyone else in the region with it. It has become an apartheid pariah state, and its leaders are deluded in thinking that they can bludgeon the indigenous Palestinian population, who are now the majority between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, into submission and servitude.

children are at the cannons right now

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/28/1421222

I thought the Israelis would be the last people on earth to engage in this behavior.

Unfortunately, the better side of human nature did not win out when it comes to Israeli policy.

as with most countries, their leadership can be populated with blood-thirsty zealots (look at our own) who don't really care what the people think..

Where are the Israeli left, do you think?
All we see are hawks, these days.

gets back into power, but do they trust their elections ?? and of course we all know how politicians say one thing and do another..

I am afraid that decades of "support" from the US (militarily) has forever altered israel as a nation..

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail :(

Due to the strange altering of relations between Israel and my country, I did some digging. Seems we all lost our wits back then, Israel included. I think 911 did more to move the Israeli electorate than we can imagine, as in: they were scared as hell by that incident. Maybe a lot of people there, just as the repub electorate in the US, got stuck in September 2001.
I don't quite agree that the military support from the US through the decades has altered Israel, but the free reins given by the Bush regime has probably encouraged the hawks since 2001/2002. With friends like Richie Perle, who need enemies? :shrug:

It's interesting, your comment about the Israeli elections. With what I know about the US elections, I don't even trust the elections back home, and want reform, overseeing, opening up. And Norway is pretty small and handy, with no reasons for expecting unfair play.

was destroyed when intifada II started, and the palestenians started killing their families.....and what was left of that further dwindled to nothing when the kassams started flying from gaza.....

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thousands of Palestinian children are being held prisoner in dungeons? And even more adults are imprisoned without charge?

Does this not sound familiar?

We have no outrage about this...neither the "ordinary" Israeli...or us...

We ask no questions...

We emulate the treatment of adult prisoners......

It doesn't pass the stink test...

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...the stumbling block, the fiction, here is that it's the Palestinians who have rejected this. The Hamas leaders, like the leaders of Fatah, have said many times that they're willing to talk to Israel, they're willing to recognize Israel. The Hamas leaders have said, “Okay, we don't want to do that in advance, because the PLO did that in advance during the Oslo Accords and got nothing in return. So we do it on the basis of reciprocity.”

The problem, Amy, is that Israel is still completely 100% committed to colonialism. That is why Israel is continuing to seize land in the West Bank, to build new settler colonies every day, to pave Jewish-only roads in the West Bank, to build the apartheid wall, to treat Gaza as a giant prison. The reason that Israel pulled its settlers out of Gaza, as Shlomo Ben-Ami has said before, is to create the fiction that Israel is not ruling over a Palestinian majority, exactly as South Africa created the Bantustans to try and fool the world into thinking that Blacks had their rights within these so-called independent homelands and didn't need to have rights within the South African state. The same trick will not work in Palestine, as it did not work in South Africa.

And the world needs to recognize that. And I’m thrilled that there's a growing civil society movement for boycott, divestment and sanctions that does. This is what is going to put pressure on Israel to end the colonial practices, no matter what document is signed between Hamas and Fatah. That will make no difference if there is no active worldwide opposition and resistance to Israel's colonialism. That is what will make a difference.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/28/1421222

and I put this topic in this forum yesterday
http://www.democraticunderground.com//discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x129070

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122822.stm

snip
Traditionally that is one half of a two-state solution, but the existing drafts of the deal make no mention of the second half of this solution - the state of Israel.

This omission is deliberate, our correspondent says.

While some have argued that this means Hamas tacitly accepts Israel's right to exist, it is becoming clear that that is not how Hamas sees it.

snip

Your colonialism and others comments are absurd, since Israel left Gaza last September, remember? That doesn't seem like the actions of a colonialist. And the only reason they entered Gaza yesterday is because of a kidnapping of a soldier from Israeli LAND. The wall is for protection against brutal attacks by the Palestinians.
ETC.

I mean come on-- when will you stop blaming the victims?

way of knowing that, but you don't seem to let that stop you from making such lofty absolutist statements.

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...claimed some sort of biblical rights and "settled" in your home, pushing you onto the street, taking your land, maybe shooting a few of your children to reinforce the point. You are are better man than I, sir. I'd fight back.

And I'd like to think that I wouldn't kill innocents in the street. But that's just me.

Where are innocents dying in the street today? Israel is bombing gaza, rounding up its government, continuing the genocide of Palestinians. Innocents are dying in Gaza. Do you mean to suggest that Israeli "settlers" are innocent? How so? International law prohibits the settlements, the U.N. has specifically demanded they be dismantled. On what basis do you defend them? Israel's manifest destiny? Apartheid?

You, however, seem to only find Palestinians as victims. Then you continue with the hollow words of the propaganda...genocide, apartheid, ad nauseum. Settlers are civilians, therefore are not "fair game." The only time that is different is when they attack Palestinians. As for the UN, fuck them! They are mainly responsible for this whole mess! And while they demand they be dismantled, I don't ever recall that they said it was permissible to murder innocents.

What more is there to say?

A compliment?!? Thanks!

of your world view. In thread after thread after thread, I've condemned in no uncertain terms the Israeli misadventure in Gaza. Before that I've stated in these threads on numerous occasions that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is illegal and that Israel should withdraw to the '67 borders. I've stated repeatedly that cutting the power and water to Gaza is an act of collective punishment and a frank breach of the Geneva Conventions. I have advocated that people contact their representatives regarding Israel's actions in Gaza. I have even agreed with Tom Joad that the International Court in the Hague take action against top Israeli officials. Why? Because I'm desperate about the plight of those in Gaza. I fear that a grave health crisis is days away.

And you have the the unmitigated gall to claim that I'd justify the slaughter of anyone? Unfucking believable. Well, judging from other comments you've made, perhaps not.

You have NO JUSTIFICATION for making that repellent statement. It's the worst sort of twisting of words. Making such statements is a use of words that's beneath contempt. So why do it? I can only surmise it's because I don't see things in a black/white configuration; you know, the Israelis are jackbooted thugs/Nazis/perpetrators of genocide, evil, evil, evil, and the Palestinians are all purer than the driven snow, and have no contribution to this tragic conflict.

Nuance seems to be a concept you don't grasp, and though truth is often a subjective thing, the facts in this case are all aligned against the statement you made in the above post. Not that you'll ever cop to it, or that I'll ever see an apology from you.

No surprises that would be ignored/supported/justified, those acts of collective punishment by the
idf, & no surprises that the reality that Gaza = OPT is completely ignored, as well.

and the wall is not there to stop brutal attacks... attacks by groups like Qasam are stop through dialog. The Qasam had a seize fire in place for nearly a year and it ended when Israel bombed women and children on the beach...


The wall is just another excuse to steal more Palestinian land and cage Palestinians like animal.


Israel need to stop killing Palestinians indiscriminately. That's the starting point.

And THAT is aslo "fact and undeniable reality." Hamas and the other terrorists need to stop killing Palestinians and Israelis indiscriminately!

Which mind you includes 100s of children as well.

There need to be a "starting point" and the ball lies with the aggressor and more powerful, Israel.

Both Hamas and Israel are terrorist in my book. But Hamas are a more legit cause, since they were kicked out of their lands, just because they are Arab and Muslim.

I've not heard of Israel strapping bombs on children to do their dirty work. And yes civilians die. As long as there is no peace.. civilians keep dying.

We give them billions to buy all the kewl weapons to kill 70 yr old men in wheelchairs

* Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200.

from the entire world. The world supports over half the Palestinian needs year after year as the Palestinian economy cannot generate enough money to support itself.

'Report: Karni crossing operating far below potential
By Aluf Benn

The Karni crossing between the Gaza Strip and Israel is, for all intents and purposes, closed to Palestinian merchandise from the Strip, despite pledges by Defense Minister Amir Peretz to keep it open as much as possible, according to a report by the Peres Center for Peace.

Karni is the Gaza Strip's main economic artery; but according to the report, which was completed this week, "the crossing is operated in a very limited fashion, has low output and is far from reaching its potential."

As a result, the promised improvement in the economy of the Gaza Strip has not materialized, the report states.

According to the Peres Center, over the past four weeks since Peretz's announcement of the opening of the crossing, it has been closed only eight days. However, on the days it was open, only 454 trucks with merchandise from Gaza passed through - an average of 23 trucks a day. In the November 2005 crossings agreement, Israel pledged that 150 trucks a day would cross through Karni from the Gaza Strip.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/729312.html

"...the Palestinian economy cannot generate enough money to support itself."

Try "supporting" yourself when your farms are now on the Israeli side of the wall. Try "supporting" yourself when you are cut off from the means of income. Try "supporting" yourself when another country controls your access to land, air, and sea routes to the outside world.


Are the Palestinian people entirly victims? Not by a long shot. But neither are the Israeli people.

Israel has always had the upper hand. They most likely always will.

"they can't support themselves..."

Shame on you. What is this, the new white man's burden?

Do you know - or are we just supposed to assume the amounts are comparable?

That doesn't seem very likely considering the Israeli military and the Palestinian one. Among other things.

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so why should anyone give a shit what he says?

another quote from the interview:

ALI ABUNIMAH: I think if tomorrow Ismael Haniyeh and Khaled Meshaal and all the other leaders of Hamas get down on their knees and say, “We want to give up everything to Israel and accept a state on the West Bank and Gaza Strip and accept to cancel the rights of Palestinian refugees and to abandon our rights to resist the occupation in any form whatsoever,” it would make no difference whatsoever, Amy, because the stumbling block, the fiction, here is that it's the Palestinians who have rejected this

Israel isn't South Africa. They aren't a bunch of white colonialists, most Israelis are Middle Eastern born or the children of Middle Eastern refugees, they aren't a separate "race" from the Palestinians but have a war with them.

MILLIONS of Jews, over 1/3 of our population, were exterminated and all of Arab Jewry was expelled from Arab countries, within the last few decades. Our one tiny nation has been under constant attack for decades.

The author is full of shit.

if they have access to facts. Yes, the author is FOS

'Worlds apart

Israelis have always been horrified at the idea of parallels between their country, a democracy risen from the ashes of genocide, and the racist system that ruled the old South Africa. Yet even within Israel itself, accusations persist that the web of controls affecting every aspect of Palestinian life bears a disturbing resemblance to apartheid. After four years reporting from Jerusalem and more than a decade from Johannesburg before that, the Guardian's award-winning Middle East correspondent Chris McGreal is exceptionally well placed to assess this explosive comparison. Here we publish the first part of his two-day special report

Monday February 6, 2006
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html

all of Arab Jewry was expelled from Arab countries

That comment of yrs falls directly into that category. Try sticking to facts because claiming that all Jews were expelled from Arab countries is an outright falsehood. While some were expelled, others left of their own accord. Making such a sweeping claim is as incorrect as someone claiming that all Palestinians were expelled from what was to become Israel...

most Israelis are Middle Eastern born or the children of Middle Eastern refugees,

That's not true either. While these statistics date back to 1996, unless there was a drastic shift in demographics, the fact is that most Israelis are not Mizrahim..

Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Demographics

Egypt, etc.

Less than 50 Jews in Iraq, Jews were expelled from Trans Jordan in 1924 long before the creation of Israel. It is still punishable by death to sell property to the enemy (a Jew) in Jordan. Although promulgated in 1973, this stance may be mitigated by King Abdullah. The PA also adopted this attitude, but has not mitigated its stance. Last year an Arab man was murdered for selling to a jew. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2134917,00.html

Less than 100 jews live in Syria. There are perhaps 1500 jews in Yemen who have accepted Dhimmitude.

...it became difficult, if not impossible, for most Jews to remain in Arab/Muslim Countries after the creation of Israel. For obvious reasons.


I'm glad many Jews still remain in Yemen.

The Jews in Yemen don't have a choice. They're not allowed to leave.

Since these comments are a complete non-sequitur, & obviously so, I'm wondering why that post was
sent as a reply to #25. The point that was being made has been completely ignored, & some other
barely relevant point has been introduced. The comments in #25 were clearly referring to the
historical context, & the falsehood that was stated previously;

all of Arab Jewry was expelled from Arab countries

The keyword being expelled. It certainly is bizarre that you've completely ignored any of
the comments in #25 & posted a non-sequitur, that isn't related to the points being made, at all.
What's that all about?

The keyword was "all." As Ms. Crumble pointed out, not all Arab Jewry was expelled, anymore than all Palestinians were expelled from what is now Israel.

Coz it had nothing to do with the false claim made that ALL Jews were EXPELLED from Arab states. Even the more partisan of the sites I've seen on this particular issue don't make that sort of absolutist and incorrect claim, and if anyone wants to try to claim that ALL Jews were EXPELLED from Arab states, I'm more than happy to supply some facts for them, whether they're interested in reading them or not :)

something to think about ...

7,000 rockets fired into Isreal?

These rockets aren't the pinpoint kind we have...this is indiscriminate shooting into Isreal.

Screw that.

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I remember starting to think twice about Israel because of their fanatic international support of apartheid and South Africa.

At the time and still the case, is that Israel and the Afrikaaner tend to view themselves similarly as 'history's victims'--betrayed by Europe and told by God to go forth, conquer and tame savage lands of a blighted people. This affinity of mission grew rather strong among the military of both countries and motivated everything from nuclear co-operation to illegal arms sales. Israeli companies went out of their way to help re-tagged and tranship South African exports so they could avoid the sanctions.

It's been downhill ever since and I figure that most of the focus is kept on the Palestinian problem because virtually everything about Israel is an public relations nightmare (human trafficking, drug trafficking, industrial espionage, illegal arms sales, organzied crime, avowedly racist parties that make the National Front look like Quakers, lack of extradition, constant intelligence probing of allies) that really begs strong questions as to why any western country would bother to support Israel with a blank cheque.

Just this week, Israel voted with Papau and the Marshall Islands and of course America (4 and only 4) at the UN to vote against lifting the Cuban blockade.

Let's face it -- it is only through a very pro-active and organzied elite propaganda campaign of threat, intimidation, racism and guilt that Israel can manage the support it has...I mean do 'leftwing' people normally support rightwing militarist regimes, in a coalition with religious zealots, whose last PM was wanted for war crimes questioning at the Hague?

No--leftwing people normally are against these types of regimes and so it is instructive that most of the Zionists sound just like Freepers and don't even have very good propaganda anymore...and just like the Right propagandist, they figure their 'real enemy' is now left criticism and peace groups.