Supplies low as Gaza blockade takes toll

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/supplies-low-as-gaza-blockade-takes-toll/2007/06/18/1182019032232.html

SHOPS in the Gaza Strip are reported to be running low of essential goods as a result of an Israeli blockade imposed following last week's defeat of former ruling party Fatah by the Islamic militant group Hamas.

Long queues formed at bakeries and supermarkets yesterday as the Palestinian enclave's 1.3 million residents stocked up in anticipation of a lengthy siege. Some petrol stations had already run out of supplies, prompting fears of an imminent collapse of essential services such as sewage, sanitation and ambulances.

The Gaza Strip has been sealed off from the outside world since last Wednesday, when the Israeli Government shut border crossings for goods and people.

Since then only a few senior leaders of the Fatah party have been allowed to cross into Israel, while several hundred less important refugees remain trapped between Israeli border guards and Hamas gunmen manning new checkpoints a few hundred metres away.

The Israeli army has also closed the border to foreign journalists wishing to enter Gaza to report on the humanitarian and political situations. The army cited security concerns.

The Israeli private company that monopolises fuel sales to Gaza, Dor Alon, told the Israeli newspaper Maariv that it had been asked to cut supplies to Gaza by the rump Palestinian Authority government of Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas, now trying to consolidate in the West Bank. The company later said it was reversing its decision following protests by Palestinian fuel companies.

An Israeli ministerial committee is to meet tomorrow to discuss shutting all electricity and water supplies to Gaza Strip, which come through Israel under the terms of the Oslo Accords.

However, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who is in the US for a meeting with President George Bush today, said his country would work with the international community to ensure that the humanitarian needs of Gaza residents are met.

(snip)

___________

Late this summer, civil society will do what it can to break the siege of Gaza.
www.freeGaza.org

stay tuned. meanwhile, Gaza activists who have been visiting the US remain stranded, and may for awhile at least, be unable to return to their homes.

Why are they blockading their own people?

Even after Israel's "disengagement" from Gaza in 2005, Israel continues to hold decisive control over important elements of Palestinian life in the Gaza Strip, as follows:

3. All movement in and out of Gaza – Israel exercises exclusive control over all crossing points between Gaza and Israel. In addition, Israel has the power to completely close the Rafah crossing to Egypt. The November 2005 agreement on movement and access provided for Rafah to be run by the PA, under the supervision of European monitors. However, Israel exercises control over whether the EU monitors will reach the crossing, and thus whether the crossing will open. Israel has in fact kept Rafah crossing closed for most of the past four months, since the capture of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, on 26 June 2006.

5. Israel continues to exercise almost complete control over imports and exports from the Gaza Strip. The three main crossing points designated for this purpose – Karni, Sufa, and Kerem Shalom – are under Israel's sole control. The Rafah Crossing to Egypt, when open, can be used for exports, however its usefulness is limited given that a Gaza-Egypt export route has yet to be established. Israel's control of the movement of goods to and from the Gaza Strip has far-reaching consequences: Israel's decision to close the commercial crossings, a frequent occurrence, paralyzes the Gaza Strip economy and causes a shortage of basic goods, including food and medicines.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:jHH0JnEXmwAJ:www.btselem.org/Download/20061116_Brief_on_Gaza.doc+israel+controls+rafah&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us


The only thing that has changed at Rafah is that Hamas has replaced the PA.


Agreed documents on movement and access from and to Gaza

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Reference+Documents/Agreed+documents+on+movement+and+access+from+and+to+Gaza+15-Nov-2005.htm

your article is from 2006....its now 2007 and i dont believe hamas really cares what israel thinks...

Rafah Crossing

<snip>

"However, Israel continues to control all of Gaza 's entry and exit points. To the east and north, the Gaza Strip borders Israel , entry into which is permitted only at crossings under Israeli control. Entry and exit by sea, to the west, and by air, are under Israel 's sole control. Following the implementation of the Disengagement Plan, Israel withdrew its forces from the southern border between Gaza and Egypt . At first, many thought that this brought an end to Israel 's control of the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt , known as Rafah Crossing. However, as time passed, it became clear that Israel has in fact retained the power to open and close the crossing at will. This has far-reaching implications for the besieged people of Gaza for whom the Rafah Crossing is the only gateway to the world.

Under the Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA) made by Israel and the Palestinian Authority in November 2005, the Palestinian Authority, in cooperation with Egypt , operates Rafah Crossing. However, the agreement places significant restrictions on the Palestinian Authority:

To ensure compliance with the agreement, monitors from the European Union are posted at the crossing. The parties gave the EU monitors supervisory powers, including the power to prevent crossing in violation of the agreement.


Israeli security forces monitor the handling of the crossing and inspect it via closed circuit camera and data systems which provide it with real-time video and data feeds on the persons entering and exiting the crossing.


The Palestinian Authority is allowed to permit entry via the crossing only to "Palestinian residents", that is, Palestinians who are registered in the Palestinian population registry and carry Palestinian identity cards. Foreign residents, other than persons in a few excepted categories, are allowed to enter Gaza only via the Kerem Shalom and Erez crossings, which are under Israel 's complete control.


The Palestinian Authority's authority to allow Palestinian residents to pass through the crossing is subject to a restriction. Whenever Israel informs the Palestinian Authority that a security prevention is listed against an individual wanting to cross, the Palestinian Authority must consult with Israel and the EU monitors and take into account their position prior to deciding whether to allow the person to enter. During the consultation, which may take up to six hours, the PA is not permitted to allow the person to cross.


Rafah Crossing has a terminal for the crossing of merchandise, but the agreement states that Rafah Crossing may be used only for exports. Exports via Rafah are of secondary importance, at best, because most of the exports from Gaza are intended for Israel or for Israeli ports for transport to third countries.

Except for the above restrictions, Israel ostensibly has no other way to prevent residents of the Gaza Strip who hold Palestinian identity cards from leaving for Egypt and from returning to Gaza . However, as became apparent after the abduction of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, on 25 June 2006, Israel has retained the power to close down the crossing whenever it wishes to do so.

Israel capacity to close down the crossing stems from it ability to prevent the EU monitors from reaching it. According to the AMA, the Rafah Crossing is open only when the EU monitors are present. When Israel issues a security warning, according to which the crossing is not to be opened, the EU monitors do not take up their post at the crossing, and it remains closed. This occurs, firstly, because the EU monitors believe that the AMA does not permit them to open the crossing when one of the parties to the agreement is opposed to doing so. According to the EU monitors' representative, they are only allowed to open the crossing when Israeli security personnel staff the situation room from which they are supposed to monitor the activity at the crossing. Secondly, the EU monitors, who are reside in Israel, cannot physically reach the crossing when Israel does not wish for them to do so, because in order to do so they first need to pass through the Israeli controlled Kerem Shalom crossing, which Israel closes when there are "security alerts."

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Rafah_Crossing.asp

from your link:
to ensure compliance with the agreement, monitors from the European Union are posted at the crossing.

Israeli security forces monitor the handling of the crossing and inspect it via closed circuit camera

the Palestinian Authority is allowed to permit entry via the crossing only to "Palestinian residents"

israel capacity to close down the crossing stems from it ability to prevent the EU monitors from reaching
__________

none of the above are relevant today

no EU, no PA, no cameras....

those gaza activists....have they tried entering through egypt? (do you have a link, i would like to read about them.....)

and like i wrote on an earlier post....your simply getting sillier....journalist have been kidnapped, killed in gaza just for being journalists...i get the impression that if addtional ones are kidnapped and killed some here would somehow blame israel.


i noticed that the "freegaza.org"....also tends to ignore the egyptians closing the border....why is that?


and werent the israeli import border control areas attacked a couple of days ago?.....why should israelis risk their lives to feed the palestenians who then attack them?

____

so many questions that remain unanswered......

boy even the ISM using B’Tselem writes
Rafah Crossing on the Egyptian border has been closed for eight days
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2007/06/18/open-gazas-borders/

so i guess because they're israelis they at least acknowledge that the egypt/hamas border has been shut...though they too dont mention why.

then they would be in co-operation with Hamas who is now in control of the Rafah crossing would they not?
Any government co-operating with Hamas then is classified as being terror sponsors, which would leave Egypt vunerable to any actions taken by Israel or the US.

The only country that can open the border with out being accused of "supporting terrorism" is Israel, a fact that is taken advantage of.

so if the egyptians let the UN transfer good and medicines to gaza....the US would be against it?

Common sense, name a country that in any way supports Hamas that is not considered a terror sponsor. As far as the US goes I do not know, nothing at this point would surprise me and if it is just food and medicine why then will Israel not allow it? Israel has better roads and closer ports then Egypt.

on edit

if Egypt had not closed the crossing they would then be in violation of the Rafah agreement, which is very clear in stipulating which Palestinian entity is in charge and it is not Hamas.

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=8895&CategoryId=7

i have never heard of the US blocking the UN from bringing in food and medicine to a place that needs it. Given that the palestenains (islamic jihad) has already attacked the israeli border entry places i would suggest that its safer to bring it in via egypt. Why should israelis risk their lives to feed the palestenains who are then in turn trying to kill them?

the route is easy...either directly through egypt, they have a port about 50km south of rafah (al arish) or

israel via keren shalom to egypt to rafah (adds an additional aprox 15km to the trip)


its even cheaper:
Palestinian use of Ashdod, however, is limited by Israeli security measures and high fees. Al-Arish is a cheaper port both in terms of port fees and labor costs
http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/2005/11/the_rafah_crossing_and_the_fut.php
___

what i dont get is why there are no comments about Egypt from all who complain about israel "locking down" gaza....suddenly they worry about the US's political policies?

...good luck in your discussions with them. :thumbsup:

it includes the following:

to ensure compliance with the agreement, monitors from the European Union are posted at the crossing.

Israeli security forces monitor the handling of the crossing and inspect it via closed circuit camera

the Palestinian Authority is allowed to permit entry via the crossing only to "Palestinian residents"

israel capacity to close down the crossing stems from it ability to prevent the EU monitors from reaching
______

which parts are relevant? which parts actually exist today?.....

there are no European monitors...they left, there are no cameras to israel, there is no PA in gaza....

Egypt had to close the crossing or have the "appearance" of supporting Hamas.

strange....i never knew that the UN during a humanitarian crises would be so "under the US thumb that they wouldnt dare criticizes a possible US policy.....is this a new UN policy (I do believe in the past the UN has criticized US policies)

and all those bloggers are also complaint to the US?....and even our own "tom" here...for some possible US policy that forbids bringing in medicine and food to a people in need, that we cant find any real solid info on?

somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of UN funding comes from the US, also the US has sole veto power. In a humanitarian crisis no the UN would not bow to the US, nor would the US openly block aid, but Egypt would be accused of supporting Hamas and by extension al Qaeda. The American right wing is working to spin the Hamas AQ link, even though in the past Hamas has rejected AQ offers of unity

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286520,00.html
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/03/05/INGERHG75F1.DTL

hamas to al quida to the muslim brotherhood...they're all fanatical...with some variations on the vanilla........so lets just assume for moment that the UN wont even mention that the crises can be solved quickly by having supplies brought in by egypt, because they're scared the US might stop their funding.

your going to tell me that the europeans, the bloggers on the left, the pa itself, all of them all of a sudden are so scared from the US that they wont even mention (that i can find) the access route via egypt?

what about our own 'tom" here, i have yet to see anything from him ...or breakaleg....I assume that they are not afraid of calling out the US and Egyptians?

but everything I have written is predictable, also it was/is Israel not Egypt withholding funds from the Hamas led government and Israel that signed agreements with the Palestinians or is a Arabs should care for their own statement.

Israel not Egypt withholding funds from the Hamas led government
___

what does that have to do with letting in medicine and food in to gaza?

or the lack of pressure from the "left" or europe or anywhere else for that matter for egypt to deliver food?

and also because they didn't want thousands of people fleeing to Egypt. In addition, the border closed because the "regulars" manning the posts there fled and because the Egyptian government is not particluarly fond of Hamas. Plus Egypt calls the Hamas actions a coup, which means they view only the Abbas government and its border personnel as legit.

Hamas does, so once again if Egypt had not closed the crossing they would have been accused of aiding Hamas and all the baggage that goes with it.

as far as i can tell they simply dont want to let hamas influence to spread...nor do they need more bombs going off in the sinai.....but thats not my argument. My arguement is that for all the calls from all the intl groups, newspapers etc to relieve the intl suffering, they all seem to have forgotten about egypt.

There can be pressure put on egypt to open the gates and send in food and medicine. And i doubt the palestenians will attack the egyptians like they do israel (when israel sends them supplies)

now i dont know why, and in fact wouldnt even know who to ask, except for our poster "tom"....I think he might be able to provide some insight

but only under pressure. If Egypt were to open the crossing it would take co-operation with Hamas to do so, which would be in fact co-operation with a terrorist organization. If Egypt had taken the initiative on this there would have been accusations from some in both Israel and the US of sinister reasons for this, if they're asked to give aid to open the crossing however it would be in a different context.

egypt fears hamas far more than israel.....i doubt there would be accusations about some sinister meeting between hamas and egypt. Infact the gates were opened briefly for about 500 gazans to return.

you write if egypt would take the initiative......I dont see why they should, i think all of those who are so upset with israels closures should turn toward egypt and put the pressure on egypt (takes care of the "collusion with hamas)...why do you think they arent?

pointed out there are restrictions on what can cross the border at Rafah and a good deal of the needed supplies would have broken those restrictions, now it has been argued that the Rafah agreement is null and void, but I would think that is a bit hasty, the status quo in Gaza will not last Fatah may retake it, if so then the agreement would still be in effect. It will be some time before the fate of Gaza is decided, however as long as the EU monitors remain on stand by in Ashkelon the agreement still stands or why would they be there?

with what?....another blood bath?...since fatah lost, hamas has been very busy building up new defenses..but all of that is beside the point.


is now june 2007, there is no israel there, there is no PA, there is no EU observers.....there is a crises in gaza.......so you think that they would all disagree if medicine and food was imported via rafah to save lives?

or do you think just because there is no EU observers the europeans would prefer that the gazans suffer more?...either way i still dont see a problem with putting some pressure on egypt for the transferring of vital food stuffs...it is suppose to be a crises....


no do i see why there is no pressure on egypt...if people dont like the way israel is handling it.....or some think that the israelis shouldnt have to risk their lives to bring in food and medicine.....there is no physcial reason why trucks cant enter gaza via rafah....is there.....

just kidding.....

...how some here completely ignore the Rafah agreement and the conditions it imposes on Gaza (like the part where the agreement states that Rafah Crossing may be used only for exports for instance).

It's almost as if they're being willfully obtuse.

how some seem not to realize that the conditions of the rafah agreement no longer exist (2 of the 4 signers are no longer in the area)...and in fact the two countries on the border have already made decisions concerning the border that ignore the rafah conditions.

now if they already did that, seems to me the Rafah agreement has been declared no longer applicable

little gang.

Thanks.

It is also abundantly clear that Israel exerts a level of control over Rafah that is not explicitly authorized by the Rafah agreement.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Rafah_Crossing.asp

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2007/04/07/israel_gone_yet_still_in_gazas_life/?page=1

your links are all pre june 14 2007...the day hamas took over the border......i would ask for some links to prove your assertion that "israel exerts a level of control over rafah..."...which implies that hamas listens to israel..but i know better......the proof doesnt exist and neither do any links to anything thats relevant to post june 14, 2007.

pleasure, is a link or two. You could have found them yourself before attacking me. I found found them in less than 5 minutes and have read this information dozens of times in other articles. You should already know it.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-06-14-eu-gaza_N.htm

The date is June 14, 2007 (Still not relevant to proving Israel's control of Rafah.)
The source is USA Today:

Near the end of the article is this statement:

"Although the Palestinians run the crossing, Israel still has final say over whether it operates." and from the official EU mission's spokeswoman:

"Telleria said the EU mission(Required to open Rafah.) "has been under pressure in the last year from Israel."

According to this Iafrica article dated June 15, 2007, Israel is still considered to occupy Gaza under international law. The article also affirms Israel's control of the Rafah crossing:

http://iafrica.com/news/features/971848.htm

Here's one that states: "To a great extent, Israel is exercising control of the border between Gaza and Egypt and control over the borders of the West Bank, to which refugees are trying to escape from Gaza. It's dated June 17, 2007.

http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intSiteSN=113&intItemId=455&OldMenu=106

If Israel has no control over the status of the Rafah crossing, and USA Today, Iafrica, Btselem: The Israeli Center for Human Right in the Occupied Territories

Gisha: Legal Center for Freedom of Movement

Association for Civil Rights in Israel

Physicians for Human Rights

Public Committee against Torture in Israel

Center for the Defence of the Individual

Yesh Din – Volunteers for Human Rights and

Rabbis for Human Rights are all wrong, then

I think, at this point, the burden of proof is on you. Wars have, and are, being fought over less proof than I've given.

Oh, and how does mentioning Israel's control over Rafah imply that Hamas "listens" to Israel? Hamas may control one side of the border, but that does not equate to control of the crossing itself.


Perhaps you could please explain it.(And don't forget the links... :D)

From The Guardian:

Rafah might be the thorniest issue.

Much of the weaponry Hamas used to defeat Fatah was smuggled through tunnels under the border with Egypt, leading to concerns that Hamas control at the terminal would lead to more smuggling.

Masked Hamas militants have erected a roadblock outside the terminal to keep waves of people from rushing to the border, and to look for Fatah officials trying to flee.

Members of Hamas wearing civilian clothes - apparently because a military presence would anger Egypt - patrolled the border in a van. When two young boys tried to enter the border corridor through a hole in the border wall, the security workers chased them away.

Capt. Mohammed Hussein Ashour, of Hamas' militia, oversees 30 men in charge of the empty terminal. But Egyptian officials, still trying to figure out how to deal with the new situation in Rafah, will not talk to him, he said.

``It all depends on Egyptian approval. They will eliminate all problems,'' he said. The crossing was opened briefly Monday to allow about 150 Palestinians to return to Gaza.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6718626,00.html

Now you expect me to believe that Israel has left its security in the hands of the Egyptians? Again Laughable.

Read the Guardian article again. Why do you presume it depends on anything but the Egyptians. They run their own side of the border.

...They will eliminate all problems."

Where does it mention that "Egyptian approval" can open the border crossing?


On edit: As for those 150 Palestinians allowed to pass through Rafah, 'their return was coordinated with Egypt and Israel.'


Palestinians stuck in Egypt allowed back, officials say (2007-06-18)

"A group of Palestinians marooned in Egypt after the Gaza Strip fell to Hamas were allowed back on Monday, Palestinian officials said.

Palestinian diplomat Hani Jabbour said 150 Palestinian travelers who had been stuck in Egypt were allowed back into the strip through the Rafah border crossing.

The border, sealed after Hamas took control of Gaza last week, was opened for half an hour to let them through, he said, and their return was coordinated with Egypt and Israel.

Hamas officials initially said the returnees were Fatah fighters who fled the chaotic coastal territory after they were routed by Hamas."

http://www.pr-inside.com/palestinians-stuck-in-egypt-allowed-back-r156531.htm


Edit II: It appears those Fatah guys let back in never actually left the Rafah crossing.


Fatah men who fled Gaza set to return (Jun. 18, 2007)

"More than 100 Fatah members who fled to Egypt after Gaza fell to their rivals from Hamas last week were to return home Monday, Hamas officials said.

The men, members of the Fatah-affiliated security forces routed by Hamas in five days of fighting last week, fled to Egypt through the Rafah crossing in southern Gaza after their defeat. But Egyptian authorities would not let them leave the crossing, and the men have been stuck for days on the Egyptian side of the terminal, the Hamas officials said."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1181813061014&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Please correct anything that you feel is inaccurate. I know you are good at finding info online.

It is my understanding that at this point there are only Egyptian forces on the Egypt side of Rafah and Hamas forces on the Gaza side.

There is no IDF presence there at all as far as I can tell.

By what means, then, is Israel able to control the opening and closing of this border?

...through their influence with Egypt and the EU monitors.

In fact, Egypt has already stated that they won't consider any changes to the current status of the Rafah crossing without consulting with Israel first.

chooses to open the gates to and from its own country.

but that should be obvious...ok..this is actually rather simple:

your first link: English, the ways it written.....
The mission monitors, verifies and evaluates the Palestinian Authority's border guards at the Rafah passenger terminal, which opened after Israel's 2005 pullout from Gaza to reassure an apprehensive Israel that Palestinian inspectors would prevent the smuggling of weapons and militants.

Results, however, have been mixed, amid frequent closings forced by Israel due to security concerns. Although the Palestinians run the crossing, Israel still has final say over whether it operates.

since hamas was the one for smuggling in weapons and militants, it seems the "Palestenain inspectors (fatah) dont have much to inspect, as hamas now owns the terminal.....hes talking about what was, when there were inspectors
______________

link two:
To a great extent, Israel is exercising control of the border between Gaza and Egypt

the claim is there but......israel has no presence on that border, so where they claim israel has control they do not explain how:

if israel says close:...does hamas listen to israel?...or does egypt?....i believe its one or the other (do you have third one?)...the EU is no longer present

link three
http://iafrica.com/news/features/971848.htm....is just a general survey of the history of the past events, nothing very specific.
_____


but of course we do have the hamas spokesman:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-06/23/content_6281917.htm

AZA, June 23 (Xinhua) -- Islamic Hamas movement on Saturday called on the Egyptian authorities to let more than 4,000 Palestinians stranded at the Egyptian side of Rafah border crossing back into the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.


i guess that means that its up to Egypt (as far as hamas is concerned)....so i guess that means that Egypt is "listening to israel".....

or this:
http://ccun.org/News/2007/June/24%20n/Rafah%20Crossing%20Will%20it%20open%20today%20Will%20the%20Egyptians%20take%20a%20role.htm
Hamas spokesperson Fawzi Barhoum told Ma'an, "We consider the crossings agreement to be over after the European monitors left, and Hamas still insists that Egypt should play a role in managing the crossing."


just an additional link
since egypt and hamas have already opened and closed the border for some palestenains pass, and hamas themselves explained its up to the egyptians (no mention of israel or the EU)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6718626,00.html

_________

EUBAM RAFAH

Temporary suspension of operations

12:00 PM June 15th 2007

In view of the last events in the Gaza strip EUBAM Head of Mission Lt. General Pietro Pistolese has declared a temporary suspension of operations at Rafah Crossing Point (RCP).

Meanwhile contacts with the Government of Israel, the Palestinian Authority and the Government of Egypt are going on in order to restore operations at the border once the security and political situation is clarified.

In the present circumstances EUBAM is conscious of the importance of having the border open and ready to continue with the implementation of the Agreement on Movement and Access.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/d80185e9f0c69a7b85256cbf005afeac/111216bfa21a8c0b852572ff00489275!OpenDocument

The failing of Gaza

JUNE 27, 2007
On the Egyptian side of the Rafah border thousands of Palestinians are once again living in tents in refugee camps like they did in 1948. Wednesday morning Egypt declared it would not open the border,


http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article7065.shtml

So Egypt would defy Israel if they wanted Rafah opened? NOT ....wow
thats a new one on the "israel/jews control the........)

somehow i dont think egypt does israels bidding

just for some general info:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200706/INT20070627b.html

Egypt will not take responsibility for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and that Egypt will not allow Israel to turn the Gaza Strip into an Egyptian problem, Frisch said.

crossing is so ludicrous that it's not worth entertaining(Not by me anyway.). If that's truly the case, as you have so passionately argued, then I have lost much respect for Israel. The Israel I know and love would never, ever allow a danger to it's people such as an uncontrolled Rafah crossing to materialize. The smuggling tunnels are bad enough...

My original point, and that of several others who have already left, was that Israel has enough power to effect the closing or opening of the Rafah crossing if they want to, and that they can help those Palestinians who are suffering if they want to. Your intimation that I am claiming the "Israel/jews control the........"/world theory is, at the very least, revolting.

I'm going to go watch "Dirty Jobs". They're artificially inseminating a horse and it's really gross. (TMI?) Anyway, watching it seems a far more useful activity than this debate over a mostly minor point which neither one of us is likely to concede. You and your friends seem far more interested in offense(Both meanings intended.) than understanding. I'm sorry for that, as well as a bit too tired to type much more tonight. Soooo...

Goodnight

whether or not israel controls rafah (and egypt?) and therefor controls all of gaza?...no its not a minor point it is infact the heart of the matter.

for those who like to blame israel for all the palestenians suffering they must conclude that israel controls gaza and that means the egyptian border as well...to concede such a point means that egypt also refuses to help the palestenains and worse. Its israel that is delivering food while the egyptians refuse to.

so tell me...how does israel exert this control?...via the US..and why does Mubarak disagree?

The only way Israel can control the Rafah crossing is by not allowing the EU observers to get to their posts. The crossing (up until recently) was controlled by the PA and Egypt with EU observers. Currently the EU observers have suspended their activities due to the Hamas actions.

I would imagine that new agreements are going to have to be reached given the new (and developing) situation in Gaza.

You're contradicting yourselves, and wasting my time.

I think it's important for us to make sure that we know as much as we possibly can about the situation.

I appreciate all of your links and the info you've shared. I am just trying to do the same.

My understanding is that the agreement was for the PA and Egypt to control the border with EU monitors and Israel monitoring remotely as well. Israel could (and has) prevent the EU monitors from reaching their posts which would lead to the border not being able to operate under the agreement.

Now, however, the EU monitors have, of their own volition, suspended their operations, and the Egyptians are not (at this point) interested in talking with the Hamas members who have replaced the previous PA border guards.

It seems to me that the old agreement is out the window and a new agreement is going to need to be reached. One that guarantees security for all concerned.

How that is going to happen without Hamas and Fatah coming to some kind of understanding I do not know.

...but I've yet to find (or been provided with) any concrete evidence that the original agreement has been scrapped.

I don't see how the original agreement can still be said to be valid as the agreement specifies that Abbas's Force 17 "Presidential Guard" would have authority over the crossing on the Palestinian side.

...attests to the fact that the agreement is currently being adhered to.

The agreement specifies that EU monitors must be present for the crossing to operate. The EU monitors left and the crossing subsequently shut down (and remains that way).


From today's JPost:

"The EU's ambassador to Israel, Ramiro Cibrian, said that legally the observers couldn’t be redeployed unless PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas’ Presidential Guard is stationed at Rafah.

The basis for the demand is found in the November 2005 agreement of movement from Gaza into Sinai between Israel, the PA and Egypt, which clearly states the Presidential Guard must be present in order for the observers to do their job."


The key word here is legally.

The monitors can't legally be redeployed.

There is some legal mechanism still in effect here.

already palestenains have gone from egypt to gaza...even though its "legally closed...."

and hamas has already said that the agreement is no longer valid....and they control rafah and gaza.....
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so which legal mechanism are you talking about?

Fawzi Barhoum hamas spokesman (google him when looking for info about hamas)

Hamas spokesperson Fawzi Barhoum told Ma'an, "We consider the crossings agreement to be over after the European monitors left, and Hamas still insists that Egypt should play a role in managing the crossing."

http://ccun.org/News/2007/June/24%20n/Rafah%20Crossing%20Will%20it%20open%20today%20Will%20the%20Egyptians%20take%20a%20role.htm

it's not cooperating with Hamas. It looks at Abbas as the legitimate government, not Hamas. Maybe Egypt is looking for the nod from Abbas to open the border?

talking to a large number of parties.

The four paragraphs below pertain to Rafah, but keep reading the article as there are a few more paragraphs on Rafah. Seems the Egsyptians won't work without the EU there and the EU won't work there with violence or an unclear security situation.

Gaza's vital border crossings closed after Hamas takeover
snip
"Masked Hamas militants erected a roadblock outside the terminal to keep waves of people from rushing to the border, and to look for Fatah officials trying to flee. Members of the Hamas militia wearing civilian clothes — apparently because a military presence would anger Egypt — patrolled the border in a van. When two young boys tried to enter the border corridor through a hole in the border wall, the security workers chased them away.

Capt. Mohammed Hussein Ashour, of Hamas' militia, oversees 30 men in charge of the empty terminal. But Egyptian officials, still trying to figure out how to deal with the new situation in Rafah, will not talk to him, even though he has tried to talk to them over the border, he said.

"It all depends on Egyptian approval. They will eliminate all problems," he said. The crossing was opened briefly Monday to allow about 150 Palestinians to return to Gaza.

Egyptian officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to talk to reporters, said no solution that would open the crossing seemed imminent, and the crisis in the Palestinian Authority made a political agreement with Hamas over the border impossible."


snip
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/18/africa/ME-GEN-Gaza-Sealed-Borders.php

an activist out of the gaza....who has an up to date blog

http://fromgaza.blogspot.com/

Palestinians Must Have Hope to Move Forward
by Mona El-Farra / June 21st, 2007


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except that in her whole article she doesnt even mention the egyptian/gaza border......i always find that amazing...20km of arab/arab border controlled by arabs and all the complaints go the other 3/4 where its israeli/arab...sounds like:

"gotta blame the israelis, even if the facts contradict it"

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two more blogs and not a word about hamas and the egytian border:

http://madisonrafah.org/blog1/2007/06/25/gazans-stranded-at-rafah-border-north-sinai-towns/#more-832

http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/ is out of date in the meantime... i do wonder if she'll return being a western educated single mom, i dont think it would be a wise thing for her to do.
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btw is the "sailing the ship to gaza" still on?..... i think i might be a bit foolish for some anglo left activits to actually enter gaza right now....though the info on it is all out of date.

Source: Reuters


Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28452526.htm

stationed at Rafah may be sent to Karni, they have been in Ashkelon simce June 9 when they left Rafah.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1182951031929&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull