MIDEAST: No Rights, Little Mercy

GAZA CITY, Jan 21 (IPS) - Seventy-six-year-old Mustapha al-Jamal goes door to door, looking for help in finding medicines for his son.

At home, the 53-year-old son Yahya al-Jamal lies back, staring at the ceiling. By his side, an oxygen cylinder keeps him going for now.

"My son's condition continues to worsen," Mustapha says. "We've been waiting two months for the medicines."

Last year Mustapaha's 44-year-old daughter, a mother of six, died of breast cancer. She had been recovering, but the Israeli siege blocked supply of medicines, and no one could then save her.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=40863

The bravery of the Israeli forces vs cancer victims is awe-inspiring.

Besieged civilians pay the price for Israel's hardline response to rocket attacks

<snip>

"When it opened its doors seven years ago, the European Gaza hospital was one of the biggest foreign investments in the long-troubled Gaza Strip and one of the leading medical centres in the Palestinian territories. Yesterday, the 250-bed hospital was sliding rapidly into crisis, turning away patients for routine operations and struggling to manage emergency cases, as the sole power plant in Gaza halted electricity production after Israel stopped all fuel supplies.

Israel said its closure of the Gaza strip was intended to halt the firing of makeshift rockets by Palestinian militants into southern Israel.

Yet Israel's stark new policy has meant no fuel or food aid has come into Gaza since last Thursday. Large parts of the overcrowded strip had no power, leaving it without lights and heating, closing bakeries and forcing hospitals to rely on generators and their own limited fuel reserves. As night fell nearly all Gaza City was in darkness. Simply put, it was "collective punishment," said the European commissioner for external relations, Benita Ferrero-Waldner.

Osama Nahal, a paediatric doctor in the European hospital's special care baby unit, looked resigned. "Politics is politics, but the care of human beings must be away from politics," he said. His unit now has 10 newly-born patients, of whom two are on ventilators."

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I'm sure a 76 year old man would find that easy. He is just being willful by not stopping them right now.
:sarcasm:

which now is basically the policy of Israel. a slow genocide, to be sure, but genocide nonetheless.
Denying a whole people necessities for living is a form of genocide.

now thats a new way of using the world "genocide"......cute

can i play to?....lets see the Palestenians are trying to kill as many israelis possible by random rockets:...hmm collective punishment based on race/religion that must make them a "form" of racist murdering war criminals.

children with bombs....that must make them a"form of " child molesters......trying to kill a whole people using children and terrorizing rockets.....no question a "form" of murderous racists.

what? That the Palestinians are losing this war badly?

Perhaps they should agree to stop fighting. But that, of course, is their own decision. That's why they have a government, after all. You can't have it both ways. You want a democratic government? Then you are responsible for the actions of the people you elect, and they are responsible for governing adequately or they'll get voted out next time around. What you don't get to do is elect a government and then expect that its actions shouldn't impact your life. If you elect a bunch of terrorists to govern you and they declare war on a neighbor, guess what, you will probably find yourself at war. This is one of the great benefits of democracy, the voters are responsible for the government they elect.

It seems some people here expect Israel to fulfill the role that Gaza's government should be and insist that Gaza's residents can't be held responsible for the actions of their government. (Their ELECTED government.) If true it would imply that the Palestinians are not ready for the serious responsibility that voting in a government entails. I am not of this mind. But you can't have it both ways.

And I was hoping that posting this article might soften the hearts of those who think all Palestinians are to blame for the rocket attacks, but it doesn't look like it's had much effect on you...

sometimes I shudder at the smug comfort of some on this forum with collective punishment, or that the Palestinians somehow deserve this "well they elected Hamas", you would think that at least the American ones then be comfortable with 9/11 I mean we did elect or allow Bush to be President didn't we? But no to that either.

After all, I thought and still think that blaming or punishing an entire population for who's elected is simplistic and the sort of things conservatives are prone to do. I've never thought of saying to my American friends 'Americans voted for a warmongering tool like Bush, so suck it all up and stop whining at me about it!', but apparently since a few folk like Vegasaurus think it's okay to do that when it comes to Palestinians, I can't see how they'd feel any differently when it comes to Americans and Bush...

But they democratically elected terrorists, and now are living with the repercussions of their decision.

That's how it works in a "democracy". If your government makes shitty decisions, you as a citizen have to live with the consequences. Tough that way, but Israel can't solve Hamas's problems, nor are they being asked to do so.

But they democratically elected terrorists, and now are living with the repercussions of their decision.

You are blaming them...

That's how it works in a "democracy". If your government makes shitty decisions, you as a citizen have to live with the consequences.

Seeing as how you think it works that way, why do you think Israelis are exempt? Using that logic I'd expect to see you telling other posters to stop whining about the residents of Sderot who has a government that makes crap decisions, the consequences of which they have to live with...

no different. Same with Americans and the bush regime. Terrorists get elected. Why so keen on singling out Palestinians?

punished in israel as well.....the single difference is that in israel the people under the kassams and katushas look toward their govt to do something..i.e. they blame their own govt for not protecting themselves.

that very same criteria, a single standard goes to the Palestinians: their govt , whoever it maybe is 100% responsible for the doings of their own citizens. It doesnt make a difference whether it is a 2 month old baby or 78 year old man.

___

i doubt you blame your neighboring country for the failures of your own govt.....


do you believe that hamas, the governing body in gaza has responsibility towards the kassams being fired from its territory?

Not single difference - the major difference is the numbers killed and maimed.

responsable for the kassams...and they are trying to kill israelis......should israel do anything about it?

i forgot to add....this is usually the part when the poster being asked "disappears"


In fact given that the kassams are landing in and near the israeli electrical plant that supplies gaza...why should israelis risk their lives to give the govt of gaza electricity, when that same govt is trying to kill them?

It's been at least a week or two. Really, this has to be the most idiotic argument you guys make by far - and you never tire of it. You just keep hauling it out every few days like that other Energizer Bunny - The USS Liberty.

Just for the laughs, maybe you can describe the intellectual journey your mind takes as it concludes that the side that purposely attacks innocent civilians is actually the innocent party. And how the side forced to defend its citizens from those direct attacks intended to kill as many of them as possible - is actually the guilty party. And it's all because of the relative body count.

Go for it. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I have never claimed Hamas to be the innocent party. It is guilty of heinous crimes against civilians.

Israel is also guilty of heinous crimes against civilians.


Just for laughs, Do you think Israel culpable of anything?

. . the body count. Most of your cohort use it to "prove" Israel's guilt. Check with breakaleg to get the full Monte on that.

Just for laughs, do you thing Israel culpable of anything?

should israel do anything about stopping the kassams/katushas....within the realm of reality

A gratuitous insult Pelsar. To the best of my knowledge I have never 'disappeared'. However if you look back at the other threads you will find you, yourself have at least twice "dropped off".

As to your question, this is a war. Israel is a regional superpower and will do whatever it wants. It has been carrying out military actions against the Palestinians for 40 years without achieving peace.

Whether such a war, and the military actions Israel has carried are on your conscience or not is up to you.

As I have said before, I am glad I am not an Israeli voter.

the question is as simple as it comes:........should israel do anything about the kassams that are landing on sederot (as i write this).......the question is directed at you, who is now criticizing israeli actions.

or is it, as i understand from your past posts, that israel should do nothing about the kassams and the people of sederot and the surroundings should accept being terrorized?

really simple question.....infact you can even give a yes or no if you like

___

as far as i know i have not failed to answer any question directed at me concerning the conflict...and if i have, direct me to the post and i will be happy to answer

I thought I had answered your question, but let me spell it out.

Yes ....But any civilized state would make sure that the action it takes is proportional and kills and maims the absolute minimum of civilians.

It goes without saying that the action should also have a reasonable chance of success. After 40 years of 'fighting for peace' Israel seems to be as far away from it as ever.


Just to let you know, I have to go in 20 minutes but will be back in about 6 hours time.

how about some reality?..

But any civilized state would make sure that the action it takes is proportional and kills and maims the absolute minimum of civilians

so your assuming that the helicopter pilots arent careful enough.....they are not "civilized". so how about some numbers?..."proportional" is a value not a definitive number:

2,000+ kassams on sederot and the environment, few killed 100,000s terrorized. On the gaza side, probably 100's of innocent killed
____

should israel stop?

has the IDF actions been successful?...we dont really know, if more would be launched without the presssure+ were in the middle..but lets say, as i believe you believe they arent...so what exactly are your proposing that the IDF do? do you have a real suggestion?

I am not saying helicopter pilots or even the 'Poor Bloody Infantry' aren't careful enough. The commanders that institute the action are the ones that are not being careful enough.



After 40 years of IDF military action, I would have thought the answer was obvious.



My suggestion is quite simple. Try something else - anything would be better than this killing, maiming. road-blocking and inhumanity.


Sorry - got to go.

simple quiz:: pre intifada I, there were no roadblocks and the Palestenains had free access to travel in israel, what happened that changed that? and what caused the roadblocks to appear in large numbers, when for 30+ years they didnt exist?
-----



its not the commanders that make the decision to shoot or not to shoot, its the pilots, the soldiers in the field....

They're orders are simple: stop the kassams while keeping casualties to a minimum. The actual decision of what "minimum" is up to them. So you what is the accusation again?.......that those pilots arent careful enough? shouldnt shoot if a single Palestinian child might get hurt?...is that what your proposing?
___

What happened? Just look at a few quotes from the period before the 1987 intifada:


1. “In 1970 & 1971, day in and day out, the IDF kept up its searches and patrols. Eventually, the tug-of-war completely paralyzed life in the area” - Halabi p.81

2. “In July, 1971, Sharon decided that refugee camps should be ‘thinned out’ such that an additional 13,000 residents were transferred during the two months that followed.” - Tessler p 472

3. After 15 Palestinians were murdered in 1982, the Jerusalem Post reported:
”...bears out the initial suspicion that a systematic miscarriage of justice is being perpetrated in the West Bank. Jewish settlers, wishing to assert their rights in the area, take the law into their own hands...after which the files are closed without anyone being booked.”

4. ‘Never has there been such brutalization...Arab blood is cheap. Sometimes it seems that Ariel Sharon is the greatest recruitment officer the PLO ever had.” - Sylvie Keshet, Yediot Aharonot, May 4th 1982



Would you have sat back and just accepted that sort of treatment from a foreign military occupation?

so the military occupation was the catatlyist for intifada I. (i agree)..intifada I was confined to the westbank and gaza...

Furthermore the actual violence was relatively limited between both sides. Some Palestinian workers stabbed some of their employees ran over some israelis at bus stops, etc....

so the consequence for those actions were that they lost the right to travel in israel freely....does that sound reasonable to you as an israeli response? (a rather passive response to protect israeli lives)

Sorry, don't follow you. Which of the references I quoted are you commenting on?

in relation to israel is a series of actions and the consequences to those actions...

this is a general reply to those various quotes for that period of time which led up to intifada I, a consequence to the occupation...a civil revolt against the occupation.

During this revolt many Palestenains took advantage of their ability to drive around israel to kill israelis:

the consequence of those violent actions was the israel was then closed off to many of the Palestenains:..entrance to israel became more difficult as israel attempted to work out which Palestinians might attempt to kill israelis, etc.

----

lets stop right here: Since some Palestenains entered israel, killed israelis....israel put in more stringent border checks, lines formed, etc: ....do you think this was a reasonable response?

Do you know how many Israelis were killed by Palestinians entering Israel between 1967 and 1987?

You say Israel put in more stringent border checks etc to stop this killing.


I have given you references showing (10s) of Palestinians were killed by settlers during the same period.

What did Israel do to stop the killing of Palestinians by settlers?

before you go and start asking question...first answer mine......

do you believe it was reasonable for israel to limit the entrance of Palestinians in to israel, have them go through security checks, etc during the period when israelis were being killed by Palestinians within israel (intifada I)



...you mentioned several times the evilness of the roadblocks etc.....so i'm concentrating on those for now.....I'll answer your questions a bit later....

_____

I thought my answer was clear enough but let me try again. During that period, Israel had a responsibility to stop the killing of Israeli civilians in Israel and Palestinian civilians in the West Bank/Gaza.

If the numbers of Israelis killed was significant, then it was reasonable for Israel to limit entrance of Palestinians into Israel etc to stop the killing.

The number of Palestinians that were killed by both Settlers and the IDF was significant, and hence I asked you what the IDF did to stop those killings. I await your answer.




I hope this answers your question, but you will note it is important to ascertain whether the number of Israelis killed was significant. You claimed Israelis were being klled but you didn't give a figure.

dont care if it was 1 or 10 or 50,....and they were all killed in the name of Palestinian Nationalism.

and that meant our govt had a duty to take action to protect its citizens....period.
_________

but if i understand you correctly, if not enough israelis were killed by Palestinians, the IDF should not do security checks until the number rises enough to be "significant" (even to that killed by the IDF?) then and only then can they start doing protecting the rest of the citizens...

did i get that right?

No you did not get it right. Everything should be proportional.


And no doubt the Government of Israel agreed with you, but do you really think a million Palestinian civilians should be made to suffer because a few criminals murdered Jews? You would be the the first one to protest that thousands of Sderot residents should not be made to suffer just because Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF in Gaza


There were more than a few Palestinian civilians murdered during this period by gun-wielding settlers and others. The Palestinians under occupation too should have been able to look to the IDF for justice but what action did the IDF take? Was anyone prosecuted? - Nope.

The fact is that the IDF & Police cared nothing for crimes aganst Palestinian civilians. Even if they had, the settlements were a constant provocation and reminder that in the West Bank, there was one law for Jews and another for Arabs.

To get back to your quiz:

It sounds very reasonable response until you remember that the original action of the Palestinians was not in a vacuum. The Palestinians resisted the occupation, the settlements and murders of their people. Some extremists went too far.

What would you have done in such circumstances? Just suffered quietly under the military occupation?

Negotiate a ceasefire. Respect Palestinian election results, and negotiate a real peace with reps of all parties. Beprepared to do the just thing -- negotiate for 2 viable states.

Of course that would require Israel to not only move a few checkpoints and dismantle a few "illegal outposts," so the reality is that is very unlikely.

This is not an unsolvable problem, but it does require political will.

Pelsar, do you consider Israel's current strategy a victory? Do you consider it effective?
Do you think racheting it up further will make a difference?

If the last 7 years have proven anything it's that your country doesn't seem capable of terrorizing the Palestinians into anything and that collective punishment has been a miserable failure.

two realitys: checkpoints and settlements to be removed...and the Palestinians will have to give up trying to kill israelis..the first happened....the second has yet to.....

____________

given that no single Palestinian authority controls the society...and that hamas may very well take over the westbank.....we really dont need kassams and mortars on additional cities.....(s. lebanon II?)....and we all know that is very likly scenario....especially after seeing gaza.

One of the facts to be recognized that the Palestenian Societies, when they were in jordan, and now in Lebanon or in gaza are that they are not very successful...and that history is rather violent. You can say its not them its the conditions, but thats just an excuse, there will always be something that is not good enough for some of the armed palestenians and the political will to stop it has yet to be seen....)

you ask if israeli present policies..are they successful....given the history of the last 60 years...a resounding yes. Being attacked at one of borders is nothing new: Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Gaza, Westbank, fedayain, jihadnikim, hizballa...... we go to the malls again, ride busses without worry etc.

i think your under the mistaken impression that we're trying to break the Palestinians.....we dont care that much to worry about "breaking them." We really dont think of it like that... we have a simple goal, our own security.

Eventually perhaps the Palestinians will decide that "a bird in hand is better than two in the bush"...or whatever the saying is that fits and decide to change tactics....if not then they'll continue on this downward spiral..and we'll keep our walls up, and our society will continue to prosper.... (thats been the history for the last 60 years.....hasnt it?)

but if you consider a society that allows sick kids to die at checkpoints, that has 1.5 million people starving "prosperous," I'd beg to differ.

But you have made it eminently clear that you're fine with the status quo.

Going to Erez tomorrow?

i'll put it as bluntly as i can: the Palestenians as a society are simply not to be trusted to make a stable society that will not attack israel. They will simply have to prove to us that they can...

and you may say its not fair...and i will agree with you, life certainly is not fair. Gaza was mine and others great hope, that we could look at a developing society, increase trade and start a new chapter of relationships with them. And tell our settlers and the RW how wrong they are.....the kassams kind of ruined that. (and they got to tell us bleeding heart liberals just how wrong we are)

interesting fun fact: the kassams are now hitting near the electrical plant that supplies gaza---so we have israelis risking their lives to give the govt of gaza electricity while the govt of gaza tries to kill them.

Tomorrow?..i was considering going to sederot, a lot of those people feel abandoned by the country.

_________
the status quo is rather ugly, but its been going on one way or another for us for 60+ years....

Your thinking is so twisted.

The victims of your ethnic cleansing have to prove they don't deserve to be ethnically cleansed before you'll stop ethnically cleansing them.

at least the "jist" of it. You can use your own word descriptions to fit your viewpoint, but thats pretty much it:

the Palestinians have stop trying to kill us, convince us enough of their intentions (its pretty easy-no rockets) to give them another chance at society without us on their necks, and we'll have another go at it.
___


i think i understand your point of view....honor and all that....i just wonder if you see how that violent approach has been nothing but a massive failure (for get the philosophy, i'm talking practical). Or perhaps you like many of the jihadnikim, believe that eventually the militant/violent approach will work?

of the criminal state of Israel.

The rockets are a deterrent from that strategy; I don't support their use.

a person who was really interested in peace, would be saddened by the kassams....as they are the reason the Palestinians are living such miserable lives in gaza...knowing full well that a successful gaza would lead to further israeli evacuations, economic cooperation and political stability.

What such a scenario doesnt guarantee is "justice"....and thats what its really all about isnt it?....I think first you want your "justice" and then what happens next is really not relevant. i get that impression from tom and others here.

sounds more like revenge, than real concern for the lives of citizen Palestinian.

and nothing they have done has made them "earn" the right to be occupied.

I do desire peace, but I don't consider moving a few checkpoints and picking up a few "illegal outposts" a move toward peace.

If you desired peace, you'd march to erez tomorrow.

As for my desiring revenge, that's absurd!! Nothing can make up for what was lost. All people can do is move forward with a clear sense of the past and of the future.

people who have been on the receiving end of the gazas govt kassams. Govts are responsible for the doings of the population. Hamas is the govt there, they are responsible for shooting the missiles.....they certainly shouldnt get "made in israel" supplies while trying to kill israelis. (now they can go to egypt .....which i am very happy about)

never said they "deserved" or earned the right to be occupied....that is a result of poor decisions of the govts in the area...and the that includes the Palestinians. Peace will come in small baby steps, not in a bang.......there are a lot of obstacles both internal and external for both groups to go through.

two were taken already: israel left gaza, a first step....the palestenians in turn did their step-using their new found freedom to make missiles to kill and terrorize....they have to redo that step.

i do wonder about the westbank.....hamas is quit busy planning their take over of the westbank....

Their actions are always dependent or the result of Israel.

For once, you should look at Hamas and the misery it has wreaked on its on people, and realize that they alone shoulder the burden of their misery. It is not Israel's fault that Hamas was elected, or that Hamas continues its terrorist approach. Were that to change, life would improve for the Palestinians.

Again, taking responsibility is part of governing. It's high time for the Palestinians to stop acting like all their problems are everyone else's fault and that they can't make any decisions on their own. They alone have the ability to stop their rocket fire, and terrorist activities.

You can google up lots of handwringing on the subject. A few follow. There has been a general trend higher since Jabba started the latest round of bloodletting.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3124397,00.html
http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijpn/vol3n1/poverty.xml
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyomkippur4831210.html

and a horrendous medical system....seem bibi was enamored by the US.....As a country israel has money, trouble is that its not spread properly, something like the top 2% controls 80% of the wealth (or something like that). Reminds of more a 3rd world country than a modern western democracy.

years ago, no one went hungry or with out a roof.....no longer as israel has joined the "me" generation of conspicuous consumption and all the values that are included in that mentality.

running your government, it's almost as bad as the collection of weasels we have here. Sometimes I think it's worse, but then I think, nah! nobody could be worse.

our politicians are a joke....on the scale of quality politicians were pretty low on the scale.....(maybe a step above zimbabwa). We had one member of knesset who was actually the daughter of a mob boss: her past experience i believe was as a waitress

anything but a thoroughly prosperous nation.

It's unfortunate that it must spend so much of its budget on defense, but that's the problem with living with existential threat of a daily basis.

I mean if that is what you want, it is OK with me. As Pelsar points out, part of the problem is that the government drank the neoliberal koolaid. They may have been forced into it because of the need for US support, but that is another issue.

I dispute the accuracy of that claim.

But how about this? Yes, they don't provide frequent enough bus service to some rural areas.

But maybe I'm wrong and you really want to discuss something useful. Show me you are serious and I might reply.

But first you didn't answer my question. Why did you bring up the body count?

That was your second question. I will respond in due course but please only one question at a time.

My question was not about an Israeli bus service as you well know.

I asked my question was to find out whether you thought Israel was culpable of anything in this conflict.



As I have said, in my opinion both sides are guilty.
By dodging my question you are implying that as far as you are concerned, Israel is completely innocent.

If you want to know if I think Israel is guilty of something (which I doubt) then identify what it is. Otherwise you want to talk about me - not the conflict. I'm flattered.

I don't want to talk about you as an individual, merely you as an example of a right-wing Israel-supporter.


I find most Israel-supporters dodge the difficult moral questions. Just look back at your last couple of threads.
I don't suppose I shall get an honest answer but I will put my question to you again:

I described Hamas as being guilty of heinous crimes against civilians.

In your opinion, is Israel guilty of any crime against civilians or is it not?



Sorry, got to go. Back in 6 hours

. . and want to carry this further.

I have two modes in this forum. Serious and screw you. You get to pick which one by how you address me. Calling me right wing will not get you the pony. Accusing me of dodging questions is a no no. I don't dodge serious questions. I probably answer questions more thoroughly and more carefully than almost anyone in this forum. If I don't answer a question it's probably because it was accompanied by an insult.

Based on your previous posts to me I have you filed in the "screw you" category and I don't treat you or your posts seriously. I just use you for entertainment.

But don't worry, you can be paroled for good behavior. If you really want to discuss something seriously, let's see you ask your question with no insults.

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.”

The reason why you never actually have a reasonable discussion with anyone and your threads all turn into insult-fests - is that reasonable discussion would quickly reveal your hopelessly unsupportable one-sided beliefs regarding the conflict. In the meantime, it's good to be able to have some fun once and I know you enjoy it too.

You may post your next insult now. ;)

So, I guess it's ok for for the insults to flow in one direction only.

This is just one. Thought I'd save you some time hitting yr head against a brick wall with someone who's not interested in serious discussion...


'People wonder why I never criticize Israel.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=195752&mesg_id=195785

Many thanks for the url.

"People wonder why I never criticize Israel. Every time I get close something like this turns up."

I wonder what msmcghee thinks turned up this time?

could be!!!

My post wasn't about who Palestinians or Israelis blame, but how posters in this forum have a tendency to blame the Palestinian population for who they vote for while not using that same 'logic' when it comes to any other populations...

In answer to yr question. Yes...

Make up your mind.

Do you think Israel is "winning" this war? Winning it "well?"

Do you think Israel is "winning" this war?

look at pre 48...the various societies in the whole region...and look at the societies today.

by all the various measurements used by the UN to measure societies be they freedom, education, health, security, civil rights etc Israel is far ahead of every society in the region...by far.