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'1 in 4 Israelis would consider leaving country if Iran gets nukes'

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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 10:00 AM
Original message
'1 in 4 Israelis would consider leaving country if Iran gets nukes'
With Israel's small size,it wouldn't be a bad idea.


Some 23 percent of Israelis would consider leaving the country if Iran obtains a nuclear weapon, according to a poll conducted on behalf of the Center for Iranian Studies at Tel Aviv University.

Some 85 percent of respondents said they feared the Islamic Republic would obtain an atomic bomb, 57 percent believed the new U.S. initiative to engage in dialogue with Tehran would fail and 41 percent believed Israel should strike Iran's nuclear installations without waiting to see whether or how the talks develop.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1087472.html
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. This may be a seminal reason, more than the security argument, why Israel is spastic
about Iran having the potential to create nuclear weapons, regardless whether they are used.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. Propaganda driven
FEAR, FEAR, FEAR!
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. If there is one thing the Jews have learned thru the years
it is that if someone says they are gonna kill you, listen to them and believe them.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. A good number of Israeli's are considering leaving anyway
The Changing Face of Israel

Furthermore, there is considerable evidence that a substantial number of Israeli Jews would like to leave Israel if they could. In an article that just appeared in the National Interest, John Mueller and Ian Lustick report that "a recent survey indicates that only 69 percent of Jewish Israelis say they want to stay in the country, and a 2007 poll finds that one-quarter of Israelis are considering leaving, including almost half of all young people. They go on to report that, "in another survey, 44 percent of Israelis say they would be ready to leave if they could find a better standard of living elsewhere. Over 100,000 Israelis have acquired European passports."* I would bet that most of those Israelis who have opted to live in the Diaspora are secular and politically moderate, at least in the Israeli context. It is also worth noting that there has been limited immigration into Israel since the early 1990s, and in some years, the emigrants outnumber the immigrants.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/12/the_changing_face_of_israel/
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Presumably this will be moving Israel rightwards?
Hardliners are disproportionately likely to immigrate, moderates are disproportionately likely to emmigrate.

Which can only be bad news.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Terrorism makes people more fundamentalist and fanatic
Blame Hamas, suicide bombers and the like, for turning Israel more right wing.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I do. But I also blame the Israeli Right for turning Palestine more right-wing.
The vicious circle goes both ways - and there is the tragedy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 03:46 AM
Original message
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. Yes, yes, yes!
It amazes me that so few Israelis don't understand that the only way to undercut Hamas is to offer the Palestinians peace, and that continued occupation and oppression only drive them further into Hamas's arms. I'm glad to see that you, at least, recognise this.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Hadn't thought of that, but sadly you may be right
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Hardliners are more likely to breed, too...
In 30-50 years time, based on current trends Israel's population will largely consist of Arabs, religious Jews and the poor.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. Here's to Iran obtaining FOUR nukes!
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Gee, that's helpful.
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MrBig Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I nominate this...
for stupidest post I've seen today.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Well, that's nice.
A hundred years ago you would have been saying, "Here's to FOUR pogroms!"

You better watch your mask, it's slipping.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Some definitions for ya.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Sorry man.
Israel is never going to disappear, no matter how much you want to. :-)
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yeah, my math was no good anyway.
These things combine multiplicatively, not additively.

So scaring away three-quarters of the Israeli population would require about 4.8 Iranian nukes ((1 - 0.25)4.8 ≈ 0.25). Getting the population scared down to 10% of its present size would require another three-plus nukes -- about 8 would do it.


h/t to Michael Smith on marxmail.org
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. And what do you propose doing with all the emigrants/ refugees in such a hypothetical situation?
Are all those who want Israel dissolved going to happily accommodate all the refugees in THEIR communities? Somehow I doubt it...
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I hereby grant all illegal settlers the right of return.
To Brooklyn.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. By illegal settlers, do you mean the three quarters of a million people
currently residing in the WB, or settlers in illegal outposts?

Some of those "settlers" in the WB have been there for three generations, and are not going anywhere, including to Brooklyn, because they were never from the US to begin with, and many weren't European either.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. actually there are 2,237,194 PEOPLE currently residing in the West Bank
Edited on Tue May-26-09 09:28 AM by Douglas Carpenter
http://www.national-anthems.net/WE

There are approximately now 470,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Every single Israeli who moved to one of the settlements knew that they were violating international law when they moved there. This was hardly a secret.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Douglas%20Carpenter/725

The majority of these settlers moved to the West Bank or East Jerusalem after the signing of the Oslo Accord in September 1993.


But why on earth do you keep arguing in support of the single state solution? It is a matter of simple mathematics 2-1 = 1. By opposing the two-state solution you are ipso facto arguing in support of the single state solution.

One cannot have it both ways. The approximately 470,000 illegal settlers and the infrastructure that supports them makes a viable and contiguous Palestinian state physically impossible. One can support removing the vast overwhelming majority of the settlers or one can support a single-state solution in which Israeli Jews or Palestinians can live anywhere they want without restriction. But it is patently absurd to suggest that one supports keeping the 470,000 illegal settlers in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and also supports the two-state solution. That is simply a physical impossibility.

Unless you are suggesting that the illegal settlers give up their Israeli citizenship and become citizens of the new Palestinian state?





There are approximately 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, (*now closer to 500,000) including East Jerusalem. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank".* http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

As appears from the map, while the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank.

full PDF map: http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf




http://www.ft.com/cms/s/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fdiscuss%2Fdu




]

LAND GRAB:
Israel’s Settlement Policy in the West Bank

link to full report:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/200205_Land_Grab_Eng.doc

Introduction


In December 2001, a long article appeared in Ha’aretz under the headline “Five Minutes from Kfar Saba – A Look at the Ari’el Region.” The article reviewed the real estate situation in a number of “communities” adjacent to the Trans-Samaria Highway in the vicinity of Ari’el. The article included the information that most of the land on which these “communities” were established are “state-owned land,” and that “despite the security problems and the depressed state of the real estate market, the situation in these locales is not as bad as might be expected.”

The perspective from which this article was written (the real estate market) and the terminology it employs largely reflect the process of the assimilation of the settlements into the State of Israel. As a result of this process, these settlements have become just another region of the State of Israel, where houses and apartments are constructed and offered to the general public according to free-market principles of supply and demand.

This deliberate and systematic process of assimilation obscures a number of fundamental truths about the settlements: the “communities” mentioned in the article are not part of the State of Israel, but are settlements established in the West Bank − an area that has been occupied territory since 1967. The fundamental truth is that the movement of Israeli citizens to houses and apartments offered by the real estate markets in these “communities” constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The fundamental truth is that the “state-owned” land mentioned in the article was seized from Palestinian residents by illegal and unfair proceedings. The fundamental truth is that the settlements have been a continuing source of violations of the human rights of the Palestinians, among them the right to freedom of movement, property, self-determination, and improvement in their standard of living. The fundamental truth is that the growth of these settlements is fueled not only by neutral forces of supply and demand, but primarily by a sophisticated governmental system designed to encourage Israeli citizens to live in the settlements. In essence, the process of assimilation blurs the fact that the settlement enterprise in the Occupied Territories has created a system of legally sanctioned separation based on discrimination that has, perhaps, no parallel anywhere in the world since the dismantling of the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

As part of the mechanism used to obscure these fundamental truths, the State of Israel makes a determined effort to conceal information relating to the settlements. In order to prepare this report, B’Tselem was obliged to engage in a protracted and exhaustive struggle with the Civil Administration to obtain maps marking the municipal boundaries of the settlements. This information, which is readily available in the case of local authorities within Israel, was eventually partially provided almost one year after the initial request, and only after B’Tselem threatened legal action.
The peace process between Israel and the Palestinians did not lead to the evacuation of even one settlement, and the settlements even grew substantially in area and population during this period. While at the end of 1993 (at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Principles) the population of the settlements in the West Bank (including settlements in East Jerusalem) totaled some 247,000, by the end of 2001 this figure had risen to 375,000.

The agreements signed between Israel and the Palestinian Authority entailed the transfer of certain powers to the PA; these powers apply in dozens of disconnected enclaves containing the majority of the Palestinian population. Since 2000, these enclaves, referred to as Areas A and B, have accounted for approximately forty percent of the area of the West Bank. Control of the remaining areas, including the roads providing transit between the enclaves, as well as points of departure from the West Bank, remains with Israel.

This report, which is the continuation of several reports published by B’Tselem in recent years, examines a number of aspects relating to Israeli policy toward the settlements in the West Bank and to the results of this policy in terms of human rights and international law. The report also relates to settlements in East Jerusalem that Israel established and officially annexed into Israel. Under international law, these areas are occupied territory whose status is the same as the rest of the West Bank.

This report does not relate to the settlements in the Gaza Strip. Though similar in many ways to their counterparts in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip settlements differ in several respects. For example, the legal framework in the Gaza Strip differs from that applying in the West Bank in various fields, including land laws; these differences are due to the different laws that were in effect in these areas prior to 1967.

This report comprises eight chapters.

• Chapter One presents a number of basic concepts on the principal plans implemented by the Israeli governments, the bureaucratic process of establishing new settlements, and the types of settlements.
• Chapter Two examines the status of the settlements and settlers according to international law and briefly surveys the violations of Palestinian human rights resulting from the establishment of the settlements.
• Chapter Three discusses the bureaucratic and legal apparatus used by Israel to seize control of land in the West Bank for the establishment and expansion of settlements. The chief component of this apparatus, and the main focus of the chapter, is the process of declaring and registering land as “state land.”
• Chapter Four reviews the changes in Israeli law that were adopted to annex the settlements into the State of Israel by turning them civilian enclaves within the occupied territory. This chapter also examines the structure of local government in the settlements in the context of municipal boundaries.
• Chapter Five examines the economic incentives Israel provides to settlers and settlements to encourage Israelis to move to the West Bank and to encourage those already living in the region to remain there.
• Chapter Six analyzes the planning mechanism in the West Bank applied by the Civil Administration, which is responsible for issuing building permits both in the settlements and in Palestinian communities. This mechanism plays a decisive role in the establishment and expansion of the settlements, and in limiting the development of Palestinian communities.
• Chapter Seven analyzes the map of the West Bank attached to this report. This analysis examines the layout of the settlements by area, noting some of the negative ramifications the settlements have on the human rights of the Palestinian population.
• Chapter Eight focuses in depth on the Ari’el settlement and the ramifications of its establishment on the adjacent Palestinian communities. This chapter also discusses the expected consequences of Ari’el’s expansion according to the current outline plan. "

link to full report:


http://www.btselem.org/Download/200205_Land_Grab_Eng.doc






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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well, at least it's not as bad as Gaza or the West Bank yet. nt
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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. Lets paraphrase that headline....
"1 in 4 people in country with 300+ nukes would leave if its neighbour gets 1."
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TimesSquareCowboy Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
22. Now they know how Iranians feel.
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piesRsquare Donating Member (960 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
25. This thread is disgusting!
People on here all excited, hoping for the entire population of a nation to flee their homeland out of fear of nuclear annihilation!

What the hell has this site turned into?!

Fuck it--I'm outta here!
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