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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:29 AM
Original message
Israeli ministers: No West Bank settlement freeze
Edited on Sun May-31-09 09:31 AM by bemildred
Senior members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet reiterated Sunday that the government has rejected a U.S. demand to halt all activity in West Bank settlements, despite strongly-worded demands from the Obama administration to do so.

"I want to make it clear that the current Israeli government will not accept in any way the freezing of legal settlement activity in Judea and Samaria (West Bank)," Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz told Army Radio.

Meanwhile, Interior Minister Eli Yishai of Shas told his fellow cabinet ministers Sunday that the U.S. demand on settlement activity was tantamount to "expulsion." President Barack Obama and his secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, have both made very public calls for Israel to institute a total freeze on construction in all West Bank settlements. Tensions between Washington and Jerusalem have been growing as a result.

Israeli political officials have accused the administration of taking a preferential line toward the Palestinians on this issue.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1089247.html
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. "... the government has rejected a U.S. demand..."
Now, grow a pair and cut off the money. Every penny. Nothing for Israeli "humanitarian aid" either. That's how Hamas collects its funds, you know. The Israeli government fits the criteria of a terrorist organization. Cut 'em off!
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not going to happen. This administration lacks the stomach for it
Notice the distinction between legal and illegal settlements. Its often lost in our media
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. ALL settlers anywhere in Occupied Territories are illegal under international law
This is not even debatable among sane and rational people - and never has been.

The entire premise of U.N. Resolution 242 is founded on the principle of the inadmisability of the aquirement of land by force. That is why all territory occupied by Israel after June 1967 has been deemed by all international legal bodies and all credible and independent human rights orgainizations without any exceptions whatsoever as Occupied Territory. This is also not debatable among sane and rational people and never has been.



Theodore Meron, the Israeli Foreign Ministry legal adviser notified the Israeli government of these fact way back in September of 1967:

"The declaration by Theodor Meron, the Israeli Foreign Ministry's legal adviser at the time and today one of the world's leading international jurists, is a serious blow to Israel's persistent argument that the settlements do not violate international law, particularly as Israel prepares to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the war in June 1967.

The legal opinion, a copy of which has been obtained by The Independent, was marked "Top Secret" and "Extremely Urgent" and reached the unequivocal conclusion, in the words of its author's summary, "that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

Judge Meron, president of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia until 2005, said that, after 40 years of Jewish settlement growth in the West Bank - one of the main problems to be solved in any peace deal: " I believe that I would have given the same opinion today."

Judge Meron, a holocaust survivor, also sheds new light on the aftermath of the 1967 war by disclosing that the Foreign Minister, Abba Eban, was " sympathetic" to his view that civilian settlement would directly conflict with the Hague and Geneva conventions governing the conduct of occupying powers"

The declaration by Theodor Meron, the Israeli Foreign Ministry's legal adviser at the time and today one of the world's leading international jurists, is a serious blow to Israel's persistent argument that the settlements do not violate international law, particularly as Israel prepares to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the war in June 1967.

The legal opinion, a copy of which has been obtained by The Independent, was marked "Top Secret" and "Extremely Urgent" and reached the unequivocal conclusion, in the words of its author's summary, "that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

Judge Meron, president of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia until 2005, said that, after 40 years of Jewish settlement growth in the West Bank - one of the main problems to be solved in any peace deal: " I believe that I would have given the same opinion today."

Judge Meron, a holocaust survivor, also sheds new light on the aftermath of the 1967 war by disclosing that the Foreign Minister, Abba Eban, was " sympathetic" to his view that civilian settlement would directly conflict with the Hague and Geneva conventions governing the conduct of occupying powers"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/secret-memo-shows-israel-knew-six-day-war-was-illegal-450410.html



-------------------------



Here are just some of the many UN Security Council Resolutions affirming the recognition by the virtually the entire international community that the territories are OCCUPIED Arab land and the illegal nature of ALL settlements in occupied territory:

Resolution 252 (1968)
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures that change the legal status of Jerusalem, including the expropriation of land and properties thereon.

267 (1969)
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.

271 (1969)
Reiterates calls to rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem and calls on Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying powers

298 (1971)
Reiterates demand that Israel rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.

446 (1979)
Calls upon Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying powers, to rescind previous measures that violate these relevant provisions, and "in particular, not to transport parts of its civilian population into the occupied Arab territories."

452 (1979)
Calls on the government of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction, and planning of settlements in the Arab territories, occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.

465 (1980)
Reiterates previous resolutions on Israel's settlements policy.

484 (1980)
Reiterates request that Israel abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

592 (1986)
Insists Israel abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.

672 (1990) Israel
Reiterates calls for Israel to abide by provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Arab territories.

673 (1990) Israel
Insists that Israel come into compliance with resolution 672.

681 (1990) Israel
Reiterates call on Israel to abide by Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Arab territories.

link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

===========================================================
===========================================================

EVEN the one dissenting judge in the July 2002 case regarding the Wall -agreed that any part of the wall that was built to protect settlement is illegal. Thus any protection of the settlements or the settlers by the Israeli state is illegal under international law.

Out of 15 distinguished international jurist representing 15 different countries, 14 agreed that the wall was completely illegal and the one dissenting jurist, Judge Buergenthal representing the United States ruled that those parts of the Wall built to protect the settlements are ipso facto illegal because the settlements themselves are illegal. All 15 Judges without exception agreed that every single inch of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza which was Occupied after June 1967 - every single inch is Occupied Palestinian Territory.

http://www.asil.org/insights/insigh141.htm#_ednref2

.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. not according to Eugene Rostow, one of the original drafters of UNRES 242
Edited on Sun May-31-09 02:41 PM by shira
He argued they were legal.

Resolved: are the settlements legal? Israeli West Bank policies
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/islegal1.shtml

Rostow was sane and rational.

There's a reason they're technically labeled disputed territories, rather than occupied, which is the conventional wisdom.

"Occupied" implies the territory was sovereign Palestinian territory before it was captured from Jordan, which it has never been historically.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. That's the same Eugene Rostow that defended the U.S. attacks on Vietnam to the bitter end.
Consider the source.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Rostow was a democrat.....Dems in office initiated the Vietnam War
considering the source is one thing, but I tend to assess things based on the relative merits of an argument.

If you can find faults in Rostow's arguments, then bring them on.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Of course Rostow was a Democrat. So were most of the people who
led the anti-Vietnam War movement(does the name Eugene McCarthy mean anything to you?). Rostow defended the Cold War and every U.S. weapons system ever deployed.

Rostow's whole schtick is about justifying horrible foreign policy decisions by the governments he supports. You have to take into account his biases when considering his arguments.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. so debunk Rostow's argument....explain why he is wrong.
Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 07:11 PM by shira
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. It's not ROSTOW'S own argument(I've read your link)
Rostow was just restating the standard Likudnik line(the territories are "disputed", not "Occupied", the missing "the" before territories supposedly allows Israel to only get out of the parts of the West Bank it chooses to, which means it will only leave tiny, meaningless areas and keep all the water and the arable land).

There's nothing personal or innovative in that argument. It's just the official right-wing Israeli line.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. so you think Rostow lied about "the" territories.....etc.?
even though he helped draft UNRES 242 and specifically recalled months of negotiations against the Soviet Union and other countries who wanted to push for ALL territories abandoned by Israel?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. here's where you guys are always wrong on UNRES 242
Edited on Tue Jun-02-09 10:18 PM by shira
1. It was adopted under chapter 6 of the UN charter (instead of chapter 7), meaning the Arab states were the aggressors in the 6-day war and therefore, Israel won the territories fighting defensively. Different rules apply to countries which win territory in an offensive war.

2. It stipulates quite clearly that Israel is to negotiate secure (defensible) borders. The 1948 armistice lines - "the Auschwitz borders" (Abba Eban) - were certainly not secure or defensible. This simple fact means not ALL the territories had to be turned over by Israel at some future point in time, which bolsters the argument about "the" territories. Besides, if Israel is supposed to withdraw to the pre- June 5, 1967 lines, then UNRES 242 would explicitly state that. It didn't. The USSR proposed such language and it was shot down.

3. Nothing in UNRES 242 states the "occupation" is illegal.



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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Yep, Rostow's arguments are very flawed...
Have you read 'Resolution 242: A legal reappraisal of the right-wing Israeli interpretation of the withdrawal phrase with reference to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians' by John McHugo? It's not available for free online anymore, but it's well worth paying to get a copy of.

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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Who died and made YOU the rational and sane police?
Whoever it was was a moron.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Dead moron. nt
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. as I said, it is not debatable among sane and rational people
But even that point aside, if the vast majority of settlements are not removed, a contiguous, viable and independent Palestinian state is a physical impossibility and the two-state solution is certainly a physical impossibility. Everyone knows this.

Those who make the two state solution impossible are only making the single state inevitable. 2-1 = 1. Its basic arithmatic.




Meron Benvenisti - former Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem

And there's a fourth model, which can be called "undeclared binationalism." It's a unitary state controlled by one dominant national group, which leaves the other national group disenfranchised and subject to laws "for natives only," which for the purposes of respectability and international law are known as laws of "belligerent occupation." The convenience of this model of binationalism is that it can be applied over a long period of time, meanwhile debating the threat of the "one state" and the advantages of the "two states," without doing a thing. That's the situation nowadays. But the process is apparently inevitable. Israel and the Palestinians are sinking together into the mud of the "one state." The question is no longer whether it will be binational, but which model to choose ".

link to full article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=363062&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y




http://www.ft.com/cms/s/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fdiscuss%2Fdu


" In the end, he said, “there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=7&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref=





There are approximately 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, (*now closer to 500,000) including East Jerusalem. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank".* http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

As appears from the map, while the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank.

full PDF map: http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf







LAND GRAB:


Israel’s Settlement Policy in the West Bank




link to full report:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/200205_Land_Grab_Eng.doc

Introduction


In December 2001, a long article appeared in Ha’aretz under the headline “Five Minutes from Kfar Saba – A Look at the Ari’el Region.” The article reviewed the real estate situation in a number of “communities” adjacent to the Trans-Samaria Highway in the vicinity of Ari’el. The article included the information that most of the land on which these “communities” were established are “state-owned land,” and that “despite the security problems and the depressed state of the real estate market, the situation in these locales is not as bad as might be expected.”

The perspective from which this article was written (the real estate market) and the terminology it employs largely reflect the process of the assimilation of the settlements into the State of Israel. As a result of this process, these settlements have become just another region of the State of Israel, where houses and apartments are constructed and offered to the general public according to free-market principles of supply and demand.

This deliberate and systematic process of assimilation obscures a number of fundamental truths about the settlements: the “communities” mentioned in the article are not part of the State of Israel, but are settlements established in the West Bank − an area that has been occupied territory since 1967. The fundamental truth is that the movement of Israeli citizens to houses and apartments offered by the real estate markets in these “communities” constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The fundamental truth is that the “state-owned” land mentioned in the article was seized from Palestinian residents by illegal and unfair proceedings. The fundamental truth is that the settlements have been a continuing source of violations of the human rights of the Palestinians, among them the right to freedom of movement, property, self-determination, and improvement in their standard of living. The fundamental truth is that the growth of these settlements is fueled not only by neutral forces of supply and demand, but primarily by a sophisticated governmental system designed to encourage Israeli citizens to live in the settlements. In essence, the process of assimilation blurs the fact that the settlement enterprise in the Occupied Territories has created a system of legally sanctioned separation based on discrimination that has, perhaps, no parallel anywhere in the world since the dismantling of the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

As part of the mechanism used to obscure these fundamental truths, the State of Israel makes a determined effort to conceal information relating to the settlements. In order to prepare this report, B’Tselem was obliged to engage in a protracted and exhaustive struggle with the Civil Administration to obtain maps marking the municipal boundaries of the settlements. This information, which is readily available in the case of local authorities within Israel, was eventually partially provided almost one year after the initial request, and only after B’Tselem threatened legal action.
The peace process between Israel and the Palestinians did not lead to the evacuation of even one settlement, and the settlements even grew substantially in area and population during this period. While at the end of 1993 (at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Principles) the population of the settlements in the West Bank (including settlements in East Jerusalem) totaled some 247,000, by the end of 2001 this figure had risen to 375,000.

The agreements signed between Israel and the Palestinian Authority entailed the transfer of certain powers to the PA; these powers apply in dozens of disconnected enclaves containing the majority of the Palestinian population. Since 2000, these enclaves, referred to as Areas A and B, have accounted for approximately forty percent of the area of the West Bank. Control of the remaining areas, including the roads providing transit between the enclaves, as well as points of departure from the West Bank, remains with Israel.

This report, which is the continuation of several reports published by B’Tselem in recent years, examines a number of aspects relating to Israeli policy toward the settlements in the West Bank and to the results of this policy in terms of human rights and international law. The report also relates to settlements in East Jerusalem that Israel established and officially annexed into Israel. Under international law, these areas are occupied territory whose status is the same as the rest of the West Bank.

This report does not relate to the settlements in the Gaza Strip. Though similar in many ways to their counterparts in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip settlements differ in several respects. For example, the legal framework in the Gaza Strip differs from that applying in the West Bank in various fields, including land laws; these differences are due to the different laws that were in effect in these areas prior to 1967.

This report comprises eight chapters.

• Chapter One presents a number of basic concepts on the principal plans implemented by the Israeli governments, the bureaucratic process of establishing new settlements, and the types of settlements.
• Chapter Two examines the status of the settlements and settlers according to international law and briefly surveys the violations of Palestinian human rights resulting from the establishment of the settlements.
• Chapter Three discusses the bureaucratic and legal apparatus used by Israel to seize control of land in the West Bank for the establishment and expansion of settlements. The chief component of this apparatus, and the main focus of the chapter, is the process of declaring and registering land as “state land.”
• Chapter Four reviews the changes in Israeli law that were adopted to annex the settlements into the State of Israel by turning them civilian enclaves within the occupied territory. This chapter also examines the structure of local government in the settlements in the context of municipal boundaries.
• Chapter Five examines the economic incentives Israel provides to settlers and settlements to encourage Israelis to move to the West Bank and to encourage those already living in the region to remain there.
• Chapter Six analyzes the planning mechanism in the West Bank applied by the Civil Administration, which is responsible for issuing building permits both in the settlements and in Palestinian communities. This mechanism plays a decisive role in the establishment and expansion of the settlements, and in limiting the development of Palestinian communities.
• Chapter Seven analyzes the map of the West Bank attached to this report. This analysis examines the layout of the settlements by area, noting some of the negative ramifications the settlements have on the human rights of the Palestinian population.
• Chapter Eight focuses in depth on the Ari’el settlement and the ramifications of its establishment on the adjacent Palestinian communities. This chapter also discusses the expected consequences of Ari’el’s expansion according to the current outline plan. "

link to full report:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/200205_Land_Grab_Eng.doc




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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. You know that there won't be forced removal of a half million people
without a war,

Do you want a war?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. If they need a bomb under their arses to move back to Israel, I'll donate to the cause...
That was sarcasm, btw.

You wanted a civil war when it came to Palestinians, but of course according to some here, they're lesser beings than Israelis...

Also, the settlers will be relocated back to Israel when the time comes, no matter how much whining supporters of the settlements at DU do about it...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. So you do support the settlements?
what about removing Arabs who have lived in their for every bit as long and in some cases longer do you have problem with that?
Hmmm 3 complete generations in a mere 40 years that's quick.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-03-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. It isn't realistic to think that anyone is moving half a million Israelis
no matter what the "international community" thinks.

When did I say Arabs should be moved anywhere?

I am opposed to continued settlement development, but those settlements that are 40 or more years old?

They aren;t going anywhere without force.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-04-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. You got yrself pretty excited about Palestinians killing other Palestinians...
Not sure that even you can be that stupid to think that people can't read and remember yr bot-like posts.

Yep, I forgot that in yr hatefilled world, it's a progressive value to support the settlers staying right where they are ;)
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Then We Need To Cut Funds, Sir
Settlement expansion must stop: if the Israeli government will not do it, there must be a forfeit.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I am skeptical that these "ministers" speak for anyone but themselves, Sir.
But we shall see. I would expect it to take a while for the new situation to be understood and a new policy to be developed in response to it. It could get interesting if the current government chooses to pick a fight.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. That Is Quite Possible, Sir
"There's always some son of a bitch who's slow to get the word!"
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henank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. You have not the slightest understanding about the Israeli political system
I posted this link on another thread on this subject. Read it and understand, once and for all, how the Israeli political system works.
source

A bit of context may be called for, as this matter, like most, is barely understood by most observers while being widely cited. In order for a law to be legislated in Israel, it must pass three readings, three seperate votes, in the Knesset. If it's initiatied by the government, it fmust irst pass a ministerial committee even before the first reading. After the first reading it goes to a parliamentary committee (or three), which can eviscerate it, change it to mean something else, block it indefinately, or forget it forever - or, occasionally, pass it back to the full Knesset for legislation. If legislation is not supported by the government, it can nonetheless be submitted by an individual MK or 30 of them, but in that case it must pass four readings: a preliminary one, a committee, and then the mandatory three readings.

And all this is merely the outline. Bismarck famously quiped that there are two things one can enjoy upon completion but should never observe in the making: sausage and legislation; this is as true for Israel as anywhere. It just so happens that some of my best friends are lobbyists, and damn good ones, too, and I've watched many of the shticks from close up. Getting a law passed in Israel requires either the bulldozer of the Finance Ministry on your side, or lots of talent and experience.

So whenever some populistic politician moots some idiotic idea for an outlandish law, the fact that it passes the first of four readings is almost meaningless. It's an act of futile grandstanding. 100% of the legislators involved know the chance of the law ever being enacted are slim to non-existent, depending on how idiotic it is. But no matter.The point is to appear to be trying, to score brownie points for intentions. Since the system won't ever let it happen, there's nothing to lose but lots to gain: if you're behind the law, you'll be interviewed by lots of media outlets and your constituents will see you. If you're scandalized by the law, you'll be interviewed by lots of media outlets and your constituents will see you. If you're a media type, you'll have lots of fun footage of passionate politcians talking through their hats, you'll be able to report breathlessly on the dramatic events, and your ratings will rise. If you're an NGO who lives off donations from foreign folks, you'll be able earnestly to tell them of your heroic efforts to fight the good fight; some NGOs work harder at putting out English-language press-releases than at Hebrew ones, since the Hebrew ones are pointless but the English ones go into dramatic files for donors.

Sooner or later the law will reach some adults who bear real responsibility, and they'll shoot it down. The Loyalty Law, for example, was apparently voted down in something like 30 seconds, with no discussion: Yaacov Neeman, Minister of Justice, going through the meeting's agenda, reached this line and curtly noted that there'd be no discussion, merely a vote, who's for who's against, the majority's against, the law's rejected next item.

And note who did the voting: government ministers, not the Association of Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI). Cabinet members from Likud, Shas, haBayit haYehudi, and of course Labor - the first three solidly on the Right. These people aren't idiots. They recognize a destructive and imbecillic law when they see one, and dispose of it with no qualms.

All of which leaves the question, why try in the first place if everyone knows it won't happen? Why give the Guardian and the Juan Coles of this world unnesseccary grist for their mills? A fine subject for a different post, someday. Though I will note that no matter how childish the politicians-media-NGO activists are, the foreign reporters who eagerly take only part of the story and use it to damn Israel shouldn't be exonerated. They could tell the same story I've just told you, but scrupulously won't, ever.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Aww, who needs these facts, it's much more fun to just bash Israel and pretend none of this goes on
Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 05:56 AM by shira
stop being a party pooper!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. It's the settlers who bash Israel by insisting on fueling the conflict through their actions.
Why can't you just admit that there's no longer any defense for the existence of those settlements?

Why can't you admit that keeping those settlements in place is not more important than ending the conflict?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Are you asserting that in the Israeli political system ...
cabinet members always speak for the government? Because what I said is that they do not, and my observation has been that they run off at the mouth all the time.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. That needs to be the big stick left as a last resort....
Once that's done, there's not really further in the way of pressure that the US can reasonably take. I'm suspecting that what's likely to happen sooner rather than later is that Bibi will give in to the US pressure and announce there won't be settlement expansion, while continuining it quietly anyway, and that caving to the US even in words will cause his govt to collapse, something that we should all be hoping for...

btw, good to see you again. It's been a while :)
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Yeah, if I understand the laws right, the President has a boatload of powers
that he could apply if he chose to do so, and I am sure all the stalwarts in Congress will be more than happy to let him be the lightning rod. You don't want to play your best card first, and Obama gives no indications of being a cowboy.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. The problem, sir, is that this would require our cowardly Congress
to cut the funding.

Much better for Ambassador Rice to sit on her hands when the UN gets around to its quarterly condemnation of Israel.

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TimesSquareCowboy Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. "tantamount to expulsion" That's rich, Israeli's complaining about being kicked out of the WB
If only it were actual expulsion!
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