Qassam explodes near Ashkelon; no injuries

Tit is waiting for tat.


The relative calm along Israel's border with Gaza was violated Thursday evening when a Qassam fired from the northern part of the Hamas-ruled territory landed in an open area within the limits of the Ashkelon Beach Regional Council. There were no reports of injury or damage.

The "Color Red" alert was activated shortly before the Qassam exploded.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3892180,00.html

from the article

A rocket landed in the same area about a week-and-a-half ago, but there were no injuries or damage in that attack either.

and only an archive photo of a qassam WTF

And of course, Israel has no right to respond to this act of aggression.

:puke:

A harmless noisemaker is an act of aggression and justifies the murder of 1400. The mass murder of 1400 in no way an act of aggression which justifies firing of a noisemaker.

Sick. Sick and depraved and ultimately suicidal.

A 30-year-old Thai foreign worker was killed Thursday after a Qassam rocket hit a greenhouse in Netiv Ha'asara in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council, north of the Gaza Strip. Magen David Adom emergency units tried to resuscitate the man but were eventually pronounced him dead.

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3864628,00.html

Woman killed by Qassam in southern Israel

Shuli Katz, a 70-year-old resident of Kibbutz Gvaram was killed early Monday evening from a Palestinian Qassam rocket which crashed into the backyard of a residential home in Yesha – a small community belonging to the Eshkol Regional Council.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3542439,00.html

and you're all panties-wadded-up aggrieved about two in the last two years. You claim two (alleged) retaliatory deaths after the proven state sponsored killings within Gaza justifies the murder and maiming of thousands? Look in a damn mirror, and ask yourself if what you are looking at has any claim to being humane, or even human. You have the same sickness as your co-supremacists here. "They killed one of us. An 'eye for an eye' is not good enough. "We will kill a thousand to one!"

I know you and those whose views you echo endorse that as a strategy, but if you can, step out of your handler's talking points and think about it with a bit of de-centering and empathy, if you can, Think about the possibility that the people in Gaza and the West Bank are no less human than you. A difficult challenge, I know, but very worth very the effort if you succeed.

I am providing evidence to refute that claim.

Most human rights group agree that the rocket attacks on Israeli civilians represent a war crime.

You might want to step out of your handler's talking points and think about whether you want to continue to refer to these rockets as "harmless noisemakers" in spite of the fact that they have killed Israeli and Palestinian civilians alike.

Student killed in Negev college as Qassam barrage intensifies

47-year-old father of four, Roni Yechiah, dies of shrapnel wounds as number of Qassam rockets hits 50.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/student-killed-in-negev-college-as-qassam-barrage-intensifies-1.240250

Palestinian rocket accidentally kills 2 young Gaza girls

A projectile fired by Palestinians fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in northern Gaza and killing two schoolgirls.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/palestinian-rocket-accidentally-kills-2-young-gaza-girls-1.260326

If you can, think about the possibility that the people killed by these rocket attacks were no less human than you.

A difficult challenge, I know, but very worth the effort if you succeed.

for the mass slaughter in Gaza. The IDF had murdered 4, I think, Palestinians in Gaza, deliberately breaking the truce agreement, prior to the retaliatory firing of a series of what were in fact harmless in effect but nonetheless alarming noisemakers that scared people.

Unlike you, I have no handler and get no talking points from anywhere, but I do have a conscience and have had a wide enough experience of the world to know that nearly all people are human, and no demographic descriptor marks them as less human than any other. I say nearly because I have my doubts about the ruling elites, but maybe if I met them I might think of them as partially human also.

Your non sequitur 'argument' amounts to little more than saying that since some cars being driven or guns being shot kill, every instance of either, even when no injuries result, should be responded to by murdering a thousand or two even when no one was injured since they might have been. That is your 'morality.'

Unlike you, I regard the victims of the expansionist and repressive actions of the Israeli state, on both sides of whatever wall was built, as equally human. You try to excuse the murder of 1400. I do not.

I am not sure where you get these odd ideas about "handlers" and "talking points" that I gently mocked in my response. It's strange that you would think your opinions come from your conscience while other people's opinions that are not exactly in sync with yours come from handlers and talking points.

Here is the point I want to make:

The rockets from Gaza are not harmless noisemakers. They are deliberate attempts to kill innocent civilians. Thankfully they are rarely effective in achieving this goal, but they have, in fact, killed people - both Israelis and Palestinians, adults and children.

is that if you regard firing rockets from Gaza that harmed no Israelis in response to the killing of 4? Palestinians as wrong according to your conscience, and I can agree that it was wrong (not as wrong as murder), how can you regard the mass murder of Palestinians "in response" to that wrong as anything less that utterly evil and depraved?

How can you not be outraged by the policy of near starvation and severe deprivation and so on and so on of the siege?

I think the answer is obvious.

(edit tiny typo)

The rockets had been fired with regularity for many years prior.

I have made no argument against your primary point about the invasion of Gaza. I was opposed to it at the time, and I am also opposed to the current Gaza seige.

It is true that Hamas was unable to stop all factions from firing off an occasional rocket against those they saw as oppressors. Nearly down to zero but not all the way. But low and suppressed enough that the firings had injured zero.

But it was when Hamas saw the deliberate breaking of the truce by gov't of Israel, when the IDF murdered 4? Palestinians within Gaza, that Hamas fired back. Neither Hamas then nor those opposition elements which had been firing off the 'harmless noisemakers' had harmed one Israeli. After those murders, Hamas tried to go dumbass macho back against the dumbass and cowardly macho murdering by the IDF. Jackass tribalism by both parties. Being easily manipulated, or damned either way, they shot off a whole bunch more.

Once they were provoked into that 'wrong' decision and the totally ineffective 'retaliation' of firing more what were effectively 'noisemakers,' the ruling powers in Israel used those acts as a 'justification' to slaughter 1400 in Gaza, destroy many thousands of homes, the electrical and medical and sewage and educational and manufacturing infrastructure in Gaza and intensify the siege.

There was nothing 'just' about that mass murdering.

And this is true everywhere, forever:

"No Justice, No Peace

Those rocket attacks killed 8 people during 2008. In most of those cases, Hamas proudly took credit for the murders of civilians.

And, of course, in March of 2008 an additional 8 Israeli students, some as young as fifteen, were murdered in cold bold while studying at a Yeshiva.

The statement from Hamas on that incident:

"We bless the (Jerusalem) operation. It will not be the last."

The time frame I was addressing was not the whole history of the region or even since the settler state was created, It seems strange that you don't seem able to remember even the last couple years,

Briefly, the oppressed population had been walled in, and they and those who would subjugate them had a rather contentious and bloody relationship. Eventually they agreed on a truce. The government in charge of the subjugated people in that region agreed to stop trying to kill the citizens of the oppressor state, and the oppressor state agreed to stop killing those confined within the walls they had built and to lift the siege. As it turned out, they did neither, even though the imprisoned population did remarkably well in fulfilling its part of the deal.

Some, far, far fewer, rockets were fired by those who did not support the government that had been chosen by the imprisoned population, but the government was effective enough at clamping down of those groups which defied the truce that no Israeli was harmed and the numbers fired was reduced to near zero.

Looking for numbers, the 4? murdered Gazans that ended the agreement was actually 6, and 19 Palestinians in Gaza were murdered during the "ceasefire" compared to zero Israelis.

Here are the rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza, during which 13 Gazans had been murdered by the IDF. Can you guess what month the final breaking of the agreement signaled by the 6 murders occurred? Would it be surprising to you that the last 6 murders were committed on November 4, 2008?
-


(edit because ',' is close to but not the same as'.')

Edit further:

I see later in this thread you are again repeating that BS claim the "both sides broke the ceasefire." Works fine for those who are willing to lie or swallow and regurgitate lies, or put faith and tribalism above facts and reality. But like most faith-based belief systems and allegiances, that is a recipe for further irrationality and conflict.

If you are willing to deny the obvious, you are also unable to see that understanding the slogan "no justice, no peace" contains within it the very best hope for those who migrated to that region.

You wrote in an earlier post that after Israel broke the truce, Hamas followed by also breaking the truce.

Here is an article from The Guardian from that period:

A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

One Hamas gunman was killed and Palestinians launched a volley of mortars at the Israeli military. An Israeli air strike then killed five more Hamas fighters. In response, Hamas launched 35 rockets into southern Israel, one reaching the city of Ashkelon.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

People can draw their own conclusions regarding the events of November 4.

Both sides agreed to continue the cease fire in spite of these events, and they did until the six months was up and Hamas declared the cease fire over.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

The consequence of Palestinian's unwillingness to be subjugated by the superior race? Those who had been murdered reacted with little more than barking?

Your comments are off the charts.

Maybe consider reading this report from Human Rights Watch:

Rockets from Gaza
Harm to Civilians from Palestinian Armed Groups’ Rocket Attacks

This 31-page report documents attacks by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups since November 2008 that killed three Israeli civilians and seriously injured dozens of others, damaged property and forced residents to leave their homes. The rockets unlawfully struck populated areas up to 40 kilometers inside Israel, placing roughly 800,000 Israeli civilians at risk. Rockets that fell short of their intended targets in Israel killed two girls and wounded others in Gaza during this period. Palestinian armed groups that launched rockets from densely populated areas also unlawfully put Gaza civilians at risk of Israeli counterstrikes.

http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2009/08/06/rockets-gaza-0

Either that or you are being deliberately obtuse and throwing out more non sequiturs to divert attention and discussion from the actual facts of the matter.

The original discussion was about the jackassery of the talking point blather that the mass slaughter of 1400 in Gaza was justified because of the rocket attacks. As I pointed out, Hamas kept to the terms of the cease fire even though the IDF never kept to their part of the deal, making the deal void and null. Nonetheless, Hamas dropped the numbers of rockets to nearly zero, even while the IDF never lifted the siege and murdered 13 and then 6 more on November 4. At which point Hamas realized that Israel never had any intention of keeping to its pledge, and that its word was not worth spit.and returned to its prior (bad) tactics.

As you certainly know, the three Israeli civilians were killed only after the murderous butchers controlling the IDF began slaughtering 1400 humans, destroying thousands of homes, hundreds of factories and fields, and destroying much of the economic, health, educational, and sanitary infrastructure.

Yes, I know it is necessary to multiply the injuries and harm done to one group by a hundred or five hundred and to multiply the other's injuries by zero in order to pretend or self-delude that there is some moral scale upon which the crimes and wrongs committed by both are sort of comparable but tilted such that your tribe/team is the superior one. No rational person uses that math.

That was the point at which I entered the discussion and that was the point I attempted to correct.

phrase into this thread, which was certainly accurate in the context it was made another thread a year ago.

You say, falsely, but that's not unsurprising, "You claimed the Hamas rockets were "harmless noisemakers" That was the point at which I entered the discussion and that was the point I attempted to correct."

That is a complete and total fabrication. I'm not sure which is more pathetic, a deliberate intended to deceive others or a delusional but merely symptomatic indication of a sickness that invents its own reality as needed. Anyone can do a word search on this thread and see you are lying. whether you know it or not.

Where were you when thousands of rockets were being fired at Israeli citizens for 8 years?

Maybe if Hamas got the message loud and clear from pro-Palestinian types like yourself, they would have stopped and there would have been no need for OCL.

You and your ilk were silent all those years.

EPIC FAIL.

Also, when have you ever spoken out against Hamas' exploitation of Palestinian civilians as human shields, which led to many of those 1400 deaths in OCL?

If you really cared about Palestinians, you'd direct at least some of your anger towards the main source of their suffering. Hamas is a misogynist, homophobic, inquisitional, totalitarian, imperialist and genocidal organization fiercely opposed to secularism, freedom of expression, individual liberty, women’s rights, homosexual equality and the combating of xenophobia. That you cannot or will not take a stand against Hamas (or Hezbollah, etc...) is a moral failure as great as your predecessors' inability to take a stand against Stalin or Hitler for who they were and offer support to their victims.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Talk about "tarnishing DU" - the regularity with which Nazi comparisons and analogies are utilized in discussions about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is also shameful.

You've also got your facts wrong about how and why the ceasefire ended. Remember that even after the incident you've cited (which Hamas responded to by firing rockets at Israel) the ceasefire was back in force, and both sides continued to observe it until the end of the six month period.

Hamas then officially announced that the cease fire was over and would not be renewed:

Hamas declares end to ceasefire with Israel in Gaza

"The calm is over," Hamas official Ayman Taha said in an announcement after concluding talks with Palestinian factions in the coastal enclave controlled by the Islamist group.

He said the ceasefire, which Hamas says was scheduled to expire on December 19, would not be renewed "because the enemy did not abide by its obligations" to ease a crippling blockade of the Gaza Strip and halt all attacks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLI75623220081218

This was followed by an immediate barrage of rocket attacks over the following two days.

is asserting that ANYBODY other than the people dropping the bombs on an extremely densly populated area are responsible for the civilian deaths. The notion that only one side in this conflict should be held to account for their actions is typical of the double standard that infects the I/P question.

If we were to use shiras no rockets = no ocl contention to blame hamas for the gazan deaths during OCL, then we could use a 'no <enter israeli deed> = no rockets' contention to blame israel for the deaths caused by Quassams.

See how it works. Lets stick to the people pulling the trigger on all sides when playing the blame game for the deaths of innocents.

And I'll continue to use the warsaw ghetto analogy when I refer to the siege and bombardment of gaza, many people do for good reason. Unfortunately, this requires using the 'n' word. But I can always just call them 'german soldiers' if it makes you feel better.

Similarly, I hope that you can see how one would find the frequent Nazi analogies to be shameful as well.

If you can find me a better comparison for the siege of gaza given the collective punishment, the inhumane treatment, the denial of sustenance, the restriction of essentials, the dehumanisation, the virtual imprisonment, the massacre backlash against resistence, the overwhelming military might of its oppressor, than the warsaw ghetto than please supply one.

Given the crime against humanity comitted in both cases, maybe ignoring this 21st century act of inexcuasble cruelty is whats most 'shameful' of all.

About 100,000 of the 400,000 residents of the Warsaw Ghetto died of starvation and disease over a 2 year period.

An additional 250,000 were deported to death camps and murdered.

Over the course of three years, approximately 350,000 of the 400,000 residents of the Warsaw Ghetto died of starvation/disease or were killed in extermination camps.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I would encourage you and others not to use it.

I agree with you that the seige is unjust and needs to end.

....carried out by the UK and USA.

Estimated deaths in the hundreds of thousands.

And that was just the 1990's, nevermind the result in Iraq and Afghanistan now with troops fighting thousands of miles away from their homelands.



Israel is much worse, obviously.

12/19/09?

Israeli Strike Is First in Gaza Since Start of Cease-Fire

By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: November 4, 2008

JERUSALEM — Israel carried out an airstrike on Gaza on Tuesday night after its troops clashed with Hamas gunmen along the border in the first such confrontation since a cease-fire took effect in June.

Five militants were killed, Palestinian officials told The Associated Press.

An Israeli security force had entered Gaza to destroy a tunnel and fought with Hamas gunmen, killing one and wounding at least three, according to Palestinian hospital officials.

An Israeli military official, speaking on the condition of anonymity under army rules, said that the tunnel lay about 270 yards inside Gaza and was apparently intended for use in the abduction of a soldier or soldiers. The tunnel was ready for an “imminent” operation, the official said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html

israel broke the cease fire and has from that time till now never ceased to bomb Gaza

There were incidents during the cease fire or "calm" that were broken by each side. In each of those cases, such as in the November incident you've cited, the sides returned to the cease fire after the violation.

The cease fire was officially ended for good by the Hamas proclamation after the six months were over as cited above.

And virtually everything you wrote is false.

I'm curious as to what your sources are for all these preposterous claims.

I'll wait...

Including 100s of dead innocent women and children blown to pieces by israeli bombardment?

Can you just confirm that for everyone here please. That hamas and not israeli weaponry killed all those innocent women and children.

Hamas "forced" IDF to kill 1400 Gazans, IDF is not responsible :sarcasm:

Including 100s of dead innocent women and children blown to pieces by israeli bombardment?

Oh, and here ya go.

Claim 1. Hamas did not break the ceasefire

Do a youtube search for "Israel admits: "No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire"

There you see an israeli spokesman admitting same.

SO, MY SOURCE IS....AN ISRAELI SPOKESMAN

:rofl:

Claim 2.No election = NO OCL

Its a known fact that prior to the election nethenyahu was painting the government as weak on security, being unable to stop the rock attacks.
Now, no government anywhere in the world is going to blow the shit out of anyone or anything in the run up to an election without the poll numbers been taken into consideration.

You can check any of the polls aat the time to see how populist OCL was with the majority of Israeli voters.

Claim 3. More Gazans died from Israeli attacks than israelis from gazan attacks during the same period.

Another known fact. And the reason why rabid zionists always quote the 8000 rocket number. Because when you quote the number of deaths these rockets caused, they pale compared to the losses suffered by the palestinians.

As to 1400 dead...

1) Hamas chose not to renew the ceasefire a week before OCL when they fired over 150 projectiles into Israel. No country on the receiving end just "takes" that.
2) Hamas intentionally hid behind and within their population, daring Israel to defend itself by killing Palestinian civilians and therefore giving Hamas a PR coup. Of course, there's no evidence Hamas would ever act so dastardly... :eyes:

If you shoot at me with a baby strapped on you and I fire back in defense and kill both you and the baby, those 2 deaths are your fault and not mine.

can you prove your claim

If you shoot at me with a baby strapped on you and I fire back in defense and kill both you and the baby, those 2 deaths are your fault and not mine.

I was actually typing my post when you posted that Az. Kinda shows how blatant the cheerleading is when people pick up on the reference at the same time

Israel bombarded an extremely densely populated area. It is simply not credible to drop bombs in areas stuffed with people and blame civilian deaths on your enemy hidind witin them. They undertook the operation knowing that a large number of innocent women and children would be killed.

YOur analogy falls down because in your analogy you are meeting like with like i.e. you are firing a gun to defend yourself from gunfire. Meeting hoemade rocket attacks (with a less than 1% fatality ratio) with state of the art weaponry and banned armaments such as white phosperous is not self defense, its collective punishment and wholesale slaughter. The fact you attempt to defend it here on a left leaning board is a disgrace.

There is no comparison.

Incidentally, I wouldn't shoot at the guy with the baby strapped on. I don't advocate killing innocent babys in the name of my safety. But thats just me. Would you be wearing an IDF 'one shot, two kills' t-shirt when you pulled the trigger by ther way??

Interesting you should use that analogy though.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Israeli-Army-T-Shirts-Mock-Killing-Palestinian-Women-And-Children-During-Gaza-Offensive/Article/200903315245946

Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Gaza Killings

The Israeli army is at the centre of a second controversy over the moral conduct of its soldiers in as many days.

IDF T-shirts awarded on completion of training

The printed t-shirts were discovered by an Israeli newspaper (Pic: courtesy of Yanai Yechiel)

The revelations centre on t-shirt designs made for soldiers that make light of shooting pregnant Palestinian mothers and children and include images of dead babies and destroyed mosques.

The t-shirts were printed for Israeli soldiers at the end of periods of deployment or training courses and were discovered by Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

One, printed for a platoon of Israeli snipers depicts an armed Palestinian pregnant women caught in the crosshairs of a rifle, with the disturbing caption in English: "1 shot 2 kills".


Heres a hint sweetheart. People who defend the IDF shouldn't use analogys where babys get shot. Especially in a one shot, two kills scenario. It reduces your argument to an exercise in irony.

....and you won't fire back? You'll watch your family die rather than defend? I'm not saying you want to kill the baby strapped to the gunner.

As for bombing Gaza, Israel dropped enough ordinance to kill at least 100,000. Why didn't that happen, and why was the ratio of combatants to civilians killed lower than the US/UK ratios in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Still waiting for the sources behind your sensationalist claims, btw...

Meeting gunfire with gunfire when your life is in danger is not the same as a government meeing homemade rocket attacks with state of the art weaponry and banned armaments in densely populated areas.

Two shots one kill, eh shira?

And whats your contention with the 100,000 figure? That Israel showed restraint by only killing hundreds of innocent women and children?

How does it feel to be the last person defending the slaughter shira?

1. You made some bold claims against Israel in an earlier post. I therefore asked from which 'reputable' sources you based your ludicrous claims. Nothing but silence in response from you. Why? You don't trust your sources anymore? Are you embarassed for some reason?

2. You then claimed that in defense you wouldn't shoot a man holding a baby firing away at you or your family. When I called you on that, you didn't reply back. Why not?

3. As to your other points,

a) What is a proportionate response to rocket fire? Certainly not Israel firing rockets back randomly at Gaza City, right? If a bus is bombed in Tel Aviv, it's not appropriate for Israel to bomb a filled bus somewhere in Gaza. So what is Israel to do realistically when within just a few days, hundreds of rockets/mortars rained down on its citizens? I'll wait....

b) Israel absolutely showed restraint despite all the unfortunate deaths. What else explains all the warnings and leaflets? Or the fact that Hamas hiding behind or within the civilian population shows that Palestinians have absolute faith in the IDF not to fire on them? Or the fact that the civilian/combatant ratio during OCL shows Israel is more restrained and careful than the US and UK in Iraq or Afghanistan? Any answer? I'll wait...

It's one thing to question whether Israel should have gone to war, for how long, etc. It's fair to ask whether war - knowing how Hamas cynically operates behind its citizens - is necessary. It's another to make preposterous and libelous claims that paint Israelis as monstrous baby eaters and Hamas as innocent and passive civilians.

OCL happened in recent memory. People remember the political climate in Israel when it happened. We remember the accusations of weakness on terrorism by nethenyahu prior to the launch. We remember the commentary and the news reports. We remember the condemnations for the disproportionate response. We remember how popular ocl was with the voters, and how close the elections were. We don't need sources to remember how a crime against humanity unfolded 18 months ago, we had TVs and the internet.

WE REMEMBER.

Keep your revisionism for the 1940s shira.

Unless of course, you want to contest that the israeli government blew the fuck out of gaza in the run up to an election, not to show voters they weren't weak on hamas, but to protect themselves, the regional superpower, against homemade rocket attacks from the people they laid siege to.

Oh, please tell us this is your contention. I could use a good laugh.

I see you're still using the 'one shot two kills' analogy. Its still bullshit, and still disgusting thet an IDF cheerleader should use it.

Hamas ended the calm (not ceasefire) without renewing it December 18th and immediately after they shot at least 150 projectiles (rockets/mortars) into Israel in the week leading up to OCL.

This is recent history.

Hamas was ready to go to war, they did not wish to renew the calm, so they decided to unload on Israel.

Their choice, not Israel's.

You must believe the politicians in Israel somehow influenced Hamas to not want to renew the calm and go to war in order to give Israel an excuse for invading, just in time for elections. :eyes:

This is why I asked for your source on this story, which you're obviously embarassed about.

Are you seriously claiming that the israeli government, accused of being weak on security, undertook an attack operation that enjoyed up to 90% voter support in the run up to an election for purely non-political reasons?

....on Israel by raining projectiles (over 150 in the week leading to OCL after the ''calm" was declared over) had nothing to do with Israel's response.

As if Israel would have just taken hundreds of rockets weekly if there were no elections being held.

So your contention that hamas 'declared war' is only valid if you also accept that Israel was at the time, and still is, committing an act of war against gaza.

Thats the crap thing about revisionism, it only works when you go back further than living memory.

....now to fire hundreds of rockets per week into Israel and count on the fact that Israel won't respond with OCL part II, since elections aren't forthcoming.

Right?

Because its the israeli administration that has the say in when they execute the next massacre against the gazans, not hamas. And whenever that happens I guarantee there will be a meeting beforehand to determine political gains and fallout of any such action . Its how the game of politics is played in 1st world countries shira.

....leading up to OCL after refusing to extend the calm Dec 18, 2008?

You're of the opinion that had the beards not decided to fire those rockets, Israel would have proceeded with OCL before upcoming elections, regardless?

Seriously?

The quote from Regev shows him agreeing with the claim that Hamas did not fire rockets in the four months prior to November 4th, but the report indicates that Hamas fired 35 rockets into Israel immediately thereafter (on November 5th) in what it said was retaliation for an Israeli attack which it says targeted Hamas militants who were allegedly building a tunnel to try to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

One Hamas gunmen was initially killed in that attack, then Hamas responded with mortar fire on the Israeli soldiers, then five more Hamas fighters were killed. After that, Hamas launched 35 Qassam rockets at Israel, not at military targets.

Thus, both sides broke the ceasefire on those two days and then both sides returned to the ceasefire for the next month and a half until Hamas declared that it would not renew the cease fire beyond the initial six months.

On December 19th, when the six months were up, a Hamas spokesman made the following announcement:

"The calm ends on December 19 and Hamas’ position is against renewing the calm,” said Fawzi Barhoum, a spokesman for Hamas.

This indicates that the cease-fire or calm was still in effect after the events of November 4th/5th when the aforementioned actions took place.

You can't 'break a ceasefire on those two days.' One broke it by killing a soldier one day, the other side retaliated the next day.

1. Would you consider the digging of a tunnel by Hamas under the border to be a violation of the ceasefire?

2. If there had been a succesful kidnapping/capturing of an Israeli soldier via such a tunnel, would you consider that a violation of the ceasefire?

3. If Hamas fighters (or soldiers, as you call them) were in fact digging a tunnel in an attempt to kidnap/capture an Israeli soldier, what action could Israel have taken to prevent this from happening that would not have been a violation of the cease fire?

1. Yes, if it was part of the ceasefire agreement. However, it is an ALLEGATION. Hamas frequently conduct training operations near the border (stupidly enough)

To this day there has been no solid evidence or footage of this tunnel digging, or the necessary shooting that was a serious enough incident for israel to break the ceasefire. There has also been no rational explanation why, instead of breaking the ceasefire Israel, knowing about the existence of the alleged tunnel, simply have collapsed it or waited for hamas militia tto emerge and arrest them.

The cartoon like scenario of a lone israeli soldier patrolling on his/her own and hamas popping up and capturing them is not plausible. I can almost picture bugs bunny popping up and proclaiming 'I knew I shuld have turned left at albakoyke'.

What we have is alleged tunneling for an unlikely inferred kidnap scenario from an army who have no problem executing even kids for stuff like rock throwing.

2. Yes. If in fact there ever was a tunnel and hamas had somehow miraculously kidnapped an israeli soldier, I would consider that a breach of a ceasefire. I also consider killing one of the other sides soldiers because of what you thought they might be up to a breach.

3. Collapse the tunnel from their side of the border, probably after capturing bugs bun.....sorry, the evil gazans.

Is it your contention that the whole Hamas tunnel-digging scenario was BS? If so, what do you think Israel's actual purpose was in attacking?

and the reaction unnecessary in light of there being a ceasefire.

And WRT Israel breaking the "ceasefire", the tunnel incident of Nov 4...

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=14&x_article=1577

Of course, you'll say the source is disreputable solely because it's Jewish, not because you have valid reason to question it.

:eyes:

Israel broke the ceasefire shira. Palestinian militants may or may not have fired rockets, but the ceasefire was with hamas, and not even israel themselves claim hamas fired any rockets prior to the tunnel incident.

I INVITE EVERYONE HERE TO LOOK AT SHIRAS FAIR AND BALANCED SOURCE, IN PARTICULAR THE WORDING :rofl:

Heres some of the wording used.....

'Barghouti also charged that Israel’s supposed blockade of Gaza' (What, the blockade is only 'supposed'?)

Nothing like a nice non-biased source.

CAMERA


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bit old to be getting spoonfed, aren't we??

As to CAMERA, it's the opinion - based on the facts below - of many Israelis that the blockade isn't all it's made out to be by human rights posers....

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Israeli_humanitarian_lifeline_Gaza_25-May-2010.htm

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001114.html

Low shira. Very low.

I love your link though. The ministry for foreign affairs of the country laying siege talks about the humanitarian corridor it is laying on during its siege. Like a kidnapper patting himself on the back for feeding the kid he has chained in his basement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm

Is there any inhumane treatment of these human beings you won't excuse?

...not the other way around. This is pretty recent history, Tripmann.

Also, it's one thing to legitimately criticize Israel's handling of the maritime blockade. It's another to portray it as something it's not. Do you understand the difference? Respond yes or no, please.

Lastly, all evidence points to the fact that if the blockade were lifted now, Hamas would receive all kinds of 'better' missiles from Iran that would certainly reach densely populated areas of Israel and cause more damage and destruction. Do you prefer that situation and Israel's certain response to these new attacks over the present blockade situation?

No obfuscation and evasions, please.

What exactly is the purpose of the blockade?

A) - to deny Hamas and other militants from obtaining weaponry? Sounds acceptable - except for a little thing called FACTS about the blockade recently exposed only after being sued. Strange things have been rejected like notebooks, like shoes, like toys, like grapes....this list is extensive and has no bearing on weaponry of any kind.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/why-won-t-israel-allow-gazans-to-import-coriander-1.288824
snip -
It was filed after Gazans began claiming that commercial interests inside Israel, and their lobbying power, were determining the permitted items.
snip -
The response included two documents that the state termed drafts that are already being used in practice - one titled "Procedure for Permitting the Entry of Goods into Gaza" and one titled "Procedure for Tracking and Estimating Inventories in Gaza." The latter is supposed to warn of existing or likely shortages.

The state also submitted a third document, a "List of Critical Humanitarian Goods for the Population," whose existence it had previously denied. This list is periodically updated, it said.

A fourth document, called "Foodstuffs Consumption in Gaza - Red Lines," is a draft for internal use only, the state said, "and has never served as a basis for decision-making." It apparently determines the minimum nutritional needs of Gaza's population, according to caloric intake and grams of food, parsed by age and gender.

The state seeks to deny Gisha's suit on the grounds that revealing the first three documents would "harm national security and possibly even diplomatic relations." And since the fourth is not a basis for policy, there is no need to reveal it, the state argued.

This is why nobody takes you serious shira. Your default position that israel is the victim and can do no wrong. That only the palestinians are responsible for their actions and than only israel has the right to act agressively when provoked. Poor superpower.

And your contention that hamas would receive better rockets is no excuse for committing an act of war and colective punishment on 1 million people. Its as disgusting as using 'we're fightin them over there so we don't have to fight them over here' to excuse the atrocities committed against the innocent people of iraq.

Remember that, and what followed?

The PA was in control of security in Gaza. Arrangements were made between Israel and the PA to control the Rafah border between Egypt and Gaza. The rockets were the PA's responsibility to stop after Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005.

Once the PA was out of business in Gaza and Hamas was in charge doing whatever the hell they wished WRT rockets on Israel, it was Israel's decision to begin the maritime blockade as a response to the new Gaza government's clear declaration of war on Israel.

Here's an article as to the legality of the blockade...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/137728

You obfuscated and evaded once again. Why is it you can't or refuse to answer my questions? If you're not ashamed of your views and you believe they'll hold up under scrutiny, what's holding you back? :)