Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Juan Cole: What lies Behind Netanyahu’s Bluster on ’1967 Borders

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:33 PM
Original message
Juan Cole: What lies Behind Netanyahu’s Bluster on ’1967 Borders
http://www.juancole.com/2011/05/what-lies-behind-netanyahus-bluster-on-1967-borders.html

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s high dudgeon over the world community’s demand that Israel return more or less to ’1967 borders’ plays to two audiences, his domestic constituency among far rightwing ‘Greater Israel’ parties intent on usurping Palestinian land, and his American constituency among the third or so of US Jews who oppose trading land for peace.

For the rest of us in the US, being yoked to Netanyahu’s angry expansionism is like being forced to date Charlie Sheen. It won’t do our own reputation any good, and it won’t rescue him from his self-destructiveness.

The ’1967′ borders are actually those that obtained before Israel launched its 1967 ‘Six-Day War’ on Syria, Jordan and Egypt. (There is no doubt that Israel launched this war, and that its aggressiveness with Syria in the previous six months contributed mightily to the tensions that led to it.)

The reason Israel has to go back to 1967 borders is that the annexation of territory from a neighbor through warfare is illegal according to the United Nations Charter, which is a treaty to which Israel and the United States are both signatories. ‘Greater Israel’ apologists attempt to get out of this difficulty by saying that countries used to conquer land away from their neighbors all the time. This is a bogus argument, since countries used to do a lot of things, including sponsor the slave trade; Britain even insisted on China allowing the sale of opium in the early 19th century. The world changed when World War II ended and the countries of the world established the United Nations to forestall any recrudescence of Axis techniques of conquest and rule. If Israel does not believe in the UN Charter, it should renounce its UN membership.

Read more: http://www.juancole.com/2011/05/what-lies-behind-netanyahus-bluster-on-1967-borders.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent commentary by Prof. Cole, as always.
Thanks for posting..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah Israel launched the 67 war but Egypt's Nasser pushed hard for war also.
He miscalculated badly on both the relative strength of the Israeli military and Israeli determination. And Syria and Jordan backed up Egypt. Jordan was probably victimized the most in terms of not really wanting war and losing the most in the process.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Soviet Union and Germany were not at war in 1941. Technically Israel was still at war with its Arab
neighbors in 1967. A ceasefire was in effect from the 1956 war but there was no peace agreement. And there was little doubt that an attack by Egypt was likely imminent in 1967, unlike the situation in 1941. I wasn't alive in 1941 but I distinctly remember the run up to the 67 war. There was very little sympathy for the Arab position outside of the Middle East. It was quite clear that Israel had been provoked by Egypt. Yes, Israel took the opportunity to grab the West Bank from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Technically they were still at war in 1973 when Egypt invaded. Does that exonerate Egypt?
Edited on Wed May-25-11 12:06 AM by JonScholar
Your logic makes no sense. There was de facto peace between Egypt and Israel before Israel decided to invade the Sinai

>>And there was little doubt that an attack by Egypt was likely imminent in 1967

Which of course, ignores the opinions of the Israeli officials I've posted below, who completely disagree with your assessment. I smell a whiff of hasbara in the air.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Egypt sure thought it did and so did her allies.
Edited on Wed May-25-11 12:28 AM by yellowcanine
Regardless of what some Israelis may have said later, there is no doubt that Israel's Arab neighbors were acting as if they were going to attack Israel in early June, 1967. I added a few more details in another post. I distinctly remember the events leading up to the 6-Day war. There was little doubt a war was coming. The only question was who would attack first and most military people in the U.S. agreed that Israel would have to attack first if they were going to survive. Yes my impressions were no doubt influenced a lot by the pro-Israeli U.S. media. But there is no getting around the fact that Egypt, Syria and Jordan were mobilized for war with Israel in June 1967 and had the support of other Arab countries. The Palestinians were hardly even mentioned. It actually had little to do with them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. And what do you think?
Edited on Wed May-25-11 12:40 AM by JonScholar
Is Egypt exonerated of its invasion in 1973? Was that not really aggression?

>there is no doubt that Israel's Arab neighbors were acting as if they were going to attack Israel in early June, 1967.

Except of course, for the doubt expressed by top Israeli generals/officials which I've already posted. This appears to be a shallow attempt to dodge the facts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I think starting wars is hardly ever justified. Not Egypt in 1973, not Israel in 1967, not the
U.S. in Iraq in 2003. Continued dialog however bellicose, is always better than starting a shooting war. And contrary to your totally unjustified accusations I have nothing to do with hasbara. I didn't even know what the word meant. I had to look it up. My point was that the 6-day war, like most wars, was a consequence of miscalculations on many sides. When countries act war like and prepare for war, generally war results. Case in point - WWI, which seemingly no one wanted but which everyone prepared for, excepting maybe the U.S. (At least at first. If we had stayed out, we may have avoided WWII, imo.) WWII was just an extension of WWI, imo. A just peace after WWI would likely have prevented WWII and perhaps many of the other wars of the 20th century.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Egypt in 1967
for all the bluster and keeping up appearances, it would have been actually very unlikely Nasser would have launched any full aggression-invasion (like the zionists did in blatent collusion with the decayed shells of European imperialism in 1956) -- their best armed forces were tied down fighting the Saudis in Yemen, which later became known as "Nasser's VietNam". That, and the Soviets were feeding his circle disinfo that acted as enough of a lullaby to allow the catastrophe to catch them all unaware.

Interestingly, what is referred as the causus belli of that war was the Egyptian naval blockade in the Gulf of Aqaba, affecting Elat & Jordan's port of Aqaba. This blockade, according to the argument, is the pretext that legitimized the Israeli aggression and land grab. But oddly enough, the same people do not cheer when resistance actions are taken against the blockade when it applies to Gaza; consistency is just a bridge too far sometimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Egypt's blockade of 1967 was unprovoked. Not so much Gaza w/kassams fired prior. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Some people who disagree with you
"I do not think that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent to the Sinai, on May 14, would not have been sufficient to start an offensive against Israel. He knew it, and we knew it." --Yatzik Rabin

"In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." -- Menachem Begin

"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal ." -- Matityahu Peled
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Nevertheless, Egypt had signed defense pacts with both Jordan and Syria, and closed the Straits of
Edited on Wed May-25-11 12:09 AM by yellowcanine
Tiran, an act which Israel had declared would be viewed as an act of war in 1957. Remember, all of these countries were still technically at war, so it is kind of useless to argue about what tactics Egypt might or might not have pursued. Strategically Egypt was behaving as if it were at war with Israel, as was Syria, and to a lesser extent but still real, Jordan. All three countries had mobilized for war with Israel, and Iraq had also stationed tanks and aircraft near the Jordanian border in striking distance of Israel. Other Arab countries also contributed aircraft. The Jordanian West Bank Commander was talking about occupying Tel Aviv. Maybe the Arabs never would have attacked, but it sure did not feel that way in the early days of June 1967.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. None of this is relevant
Edited on Wed May-25-11 12:42 AM by JonScholar
In the end, it was Israel that decided to launch the attack. The fact that the countries were not *officially* at peace, did not justify a renewal of hostilities from Israel. The closing of the Straits of Tiran did not justify a war the ended with the deaths of thousands of people, at most it gave Israel the authority to break the blockade. The Israeli officials/generals quoted above hold views that are completely opposed to yours, and these are people who in positions that make them inherently more informed regarding Egypt's military capacity and intentions at the time. Rabin doesn't believe the forces Egypt had moved into the Sinai were sufficient for an invasion of Israel, nor does Peled. Despite your desperate attempts at apologizing for Israel's aggression, all of these gentlemen confirm that it was Israel who made the ultimate decision to go to war. Go away hasbara

Edit, a great summary of the events leading up to the 1967 war, for observers: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/05/973396/-Revising-the-June-1967-Arab-Israeli-War

Moshe Dayan himself conceded that the “nature and scale of our reprisal actions against Syria and Jordan had left Nasser with no choice but to defend his image and prestige in his own country and throughout the Arab world”. (cited in Finkelstein 2003:127) Nasser decided to send troops into the Sinai, in a move interpreted by Israel, correctly, as an effort to deter it from attacking Syria. (Maoz 2009:89) Before proceeding further, we should clarify two points about which a scholarly consensus exists but has yet to be communicated successfully to the public. First, Nasser had neither the intention nor the capacity to successfully attack Israel; and second, Israeli officials were well aware of this. Thus: “Egypt was not ready for a war; and Nasser did not want a war” (Mossad chief Meir Amit); I “did not believe that Nasser wanted war” (IDF chief of staff Rabin); “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai... do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” (1967 National Unity government minister Menachem Begin); Egyptian forces in the Sinai were in a state of “total chaos” (IDF intelligence chief Yariv, at the end of May); the Egyptian army was “perhaps in a defensive orientation only” (IDF chief of staff Rabin, in the crucial 2 June cabinet meeting); etc. US intelligence at the time was clear that Nasser’s formations in the Sinai were “defensive in character” and were “merely gestures” Nasser felt compelled to make “in the interests of the fiction of Arab unity” (CIA Appraisal). President Johnson told Israeli representatives at the end of May that “no military attack on Israel is imminent” and that if Nasser attacked, even in concert with the other Arab states, “you will whip the hell out of them”. Mossad chief Meir Amit declared that Israeli intelligence was in full agreement with US intelligence on these issues. As he assured Eshkol: “If strikes first, he’s finished”. In public Israeli leaders fretted about a looming “second Holocaust”, but the documentary record reveals this posture to be, in the words of Israeli general Mattityahu Peled, “a bluff”. (quotes from Finkelstein: 2003)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. I highly doubt this excuse will ever be abandoned:
"Another bogus argument the Greater Israel expansionists trot out is that the UN Charter only forbids the acquisition of territory from other countries, and the Palestinians did not have a country, and so they are fair game. This argument is morally despicable, since the Israelis made the Palestinians stateless, thwarting the intention of the League of Nations that Palestine become a state; and now they are using the abjectness and statelessness as an argument that Palestinians can be stolen from at will. But the argument is also incorrect. Both the League of Nations and the UN made it perfectly clear that they intended that the Palestinians have a state in the future, so in preventing this from happening the Israelis are defying international law. The 1947 UN Partition Plan, the legitimacy of which the Israeli government says it recognizes, awarded Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians. So it is not true that these territories are no-man’s land or that there is no legal framework for their people’s existence, such that anyone could enslave them or expropriate them at will."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It is more complex than that. The Palestinians did not have a state in Gaza and the West Bank in
1967. Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled the Gaza strip. People also forget that King Hussein of Jordan drove Palestinian fighters out of Jordan in September 1970. Most of the Palestinian fighters ended up in Lebanon, where they were a contributing factor to the Lebanese Civil War which began in 1975. The Palestinians in Jerusalem, West Bank and Jordan proper actually outnumbered native Jordanians two to one (800,000 to 400,000) prior to the 1967 War.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Did you even read the part of the text that was quoted
The League of Nations had the intention of establishing a Palestinian state. That alone makes Israel's acquisition of Palestinian territory illegal. And even if it weren't illegal it would still be morally reprehensible to steal land from it's native inhabitants, stateless or no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. There was a partition by the U.N. in 1947 which was accepted by the Jews but not the Palestinians.
They chose to fight the Jews with the support of the Arab countries. War creates its own logic so it becomes difficult to sort out what would have happened had negotiation rather than armed struggle carried the day. But basically the Arab armies failed to defeat the Israelis and were in fact driven back so that Israel had even more territory than they were awarded under the partition plan. Maybe this was the Israeli plan all along. I don't know but it does not seem helpful to talk about what the intentions of the League of Nations might have been given that it no longer existed after WWII and that it basically failed to do anything to resolve conflicts in the Middle East or anywhere else. My personal belief is that there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides - Israeli, Palestinian, Arab nations, U.S., USSR, Britain, France, the U.N. The question is what to do now? Israel exists. The Palestinians exist but Palestine doesn't. My belief is that Obama's prescription of starting at the 67 borders with land swaps makes a lot of sense. I hope the Israelis and the Palestinians can come to a permanent peace agreement based on that. Both are clearly going to have to give something more than what they appear to be willing to give now. It is unfortunate that both sides seem to still be listening to their most militant factions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Has nothing to do with the post-1967 occupied territories n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Not true, because the 1948 War had not ended and still has not ended..
The war between Israel and Egypt appears to be over, but not the war between Israel and the Palestinians. And in 1967 Israel was still at war with all her Arab neighbors, so an assertion that the events of 1947-8 have nothing to do with the post-1967 occupation ignores reality. Wars don't always end with ceasefires and armistices. They don't even always end with peace treaties, though they are obviously preferable and more likely to result in actual peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. No it's not more complicated than that at all, what you're adding
Edited on Wed May-25-11 08:00 AM by Jefferson23
here does not change the information Cole addressed; you're adding contrived excuses, not nuance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Cole's argument that you quoted is BS...
Edited on Wed May-25-11 08:25 AM by shira
"This argument is morally despicable, since the Israelis made the Palestinians stateless, thwarting the intention of the League of Nations that Palestine become a state;"

=========

Israel did no such thing. They accepted partition in 1948 while the Arabs rejected it. They didn't thwart anything.

Cole's a shameless hack.

Neither he nor you get to make up facts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Who is a hack?
"Another bogus argument the Greater Israel expansionists trot out is that the UN Charter only forbids the acquisition of territory from other countries, and the Palestinians did not have a country, and so they are fair game. This argument is morally despicable, since the Israelis made the Palestinians stateless, thwarting the intention of the League of Nations that Palestine become a state; and now they are using the abjectness and statelessness as an argument that Palestinians can be stolen from at will. But the argument is also incorrect. Both the League of Nations and the UN made it perfectly clear that they intended that the Palestinians have a state in the future, so in preventing this from happening the Israelis are defying international law. The 1947 UN Partition Plan, the legitimacy of which the Israeli government says it recognizes, awarded Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians. So it is not true that these territories are no-man’s land or that there is no legal framework for their people’s existence, such that anyone could enslave them or expropriate them at will."


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Mr. Cole. That line from the paragraph you are citing is totally false.
"This argument is morally despicable, since the Israelis made the Palestinians stateless, thwarting the intention of the League of Nations that Palestine become a state"

He made that up.

It's pointless taking anything he says seriously. But you probably believe that's good scholarship.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Apparently anyone who doesn't display sycophantic loyalty to the hasbara version of Israel's history
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. If facts matter, please explain Cole's sentence that I quoted. Thanks. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonScholar Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Why don't you just email Juan and ask him yourself?
Edited on Wed May-25-11 06:26 PM by JonScholar
jrcole@umich.edu

He definitely responds if you don't act like a total jackass (which, admittedly, might be asking too much).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
18. Another dud by Juan Cole. Hardly worth responding to, including the silly comments...
Edited on Wed May-25-11 04:33 AM by shira
....WRT who is to blame for 1967.

Yitzak Rabin had a nervous breakdown while Arab armies were amassed on Israel's borders. Had the Arab armies attacked first, Israeli citizens would have been massacred. Also, in addition to being choked off from the blockade, Israel's military could not possibly stay on high alert for such a long time.

No one in their right mind believes Israel is to blame for 1967.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. Sigh. Israel was the aggressor in 1967, a surprise attack is a surprise attack.
Given the amount of bragging about it, it's weird to hear people playing "timid mouse" later when it's convenient to some other argument. It's like saying Japan was not the aggressor when it bombed Pearl Harbor because we were going to kick their ass in the end.

If you actually are interested in the legalities of Mandate Palestine, there is plenty on the web, like Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine

It is also easy to find stuff about Mandate Palestine coins, passports, etc. etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 12th 2024, 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC