P.A. Radio Praises "Heroic Attack" On "Settler-Terrorists"

Several hours after the murderous attack on the Hatuel family of Katif - leaving David Hatuel bereft of his entire family: his pregnant wife and four daughters - PA radio praised the murderous terrorists as "heroic martyrs," and their heinous crime as one of "heroic martyrdom." In its report the next morning, the PA radio referred to the Jewish residents of Gaza as "settlers" and "terrorists" in light of their plans to build a new neighborhood in N'vei Dekalim. The radio mentioned that the victims of the Sunday attack were "settlers," neglecting to note that they were a pregnant woman and four little girls who were shot to death at point-blank range. So reports Dr. Michael Widlanski of Hebrew University.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=61855

============================================================

yeah...i'm sold...they want peace.

They should think twice before stealing land anyway.
By the way, your loaded language is a laugh.

"PA praised the murderous terrorists as "heroic martyrs" and their heinous" blah blah blah

The report could also be written like: "Land thief David Hatuel
jeopardized his entire family and paid for his crimes dearly."

Works both ways.

You may be written down, then, as supporting capital punishment for the crime of theft?

It has been a while since thieves were hanged, but perhaps we could all benefit from restoring the pracrice, eh?

as far as the consequences of that theft, i don't have any opinion
other than pointing out that you reap what you sow.

And these "settlers" are the biggest roadblock to peace

Do you feel thieves ought be executed?

Do you value property above human life?

You are trying to frame the issue in terms of moral absolutes.

These people were engaging in the theft of land and
they paid dearly for their foolishness. It has nothing
to do with whether I condone the killing, which I don't.
It has everything to do with the folly of settlements on Palestinian land. But you don't want to talk about that now do you?

I get sick of apologist for either side of this issue.

Was not an answer.

Your initial comment suggested these murders were appropriate, because the persons were involved in theft of land. The query you will not answer directly is aimed not at establishing any moral absolute, but rather with making clear the underlying logic of the position you had taken, and whether you were a person who can stand up to the implications of the position you had taken without flinching.

You would seem to have blinked, which on balance speaks well of you.

and yet you want to make them out to be purely victims

Actions have consequences rather they be just or not
But apologists for land thieves must not address the real issue.

You are trying to frame the issue without acknowleging all the facts.
This type of denial is typical of people who have a vested interest in one side or the other.

You can say the implications are one thing but that does not make it so.
Perhaps if these thieves would understand that actions have consequences this guy still might have a family.

Instead he put his entire family in jeapardy because he wanted to steal.

To be backing back in to the origional position you adopted, that execution is a proper punishment for theft....

do you know how to read?

I said "They should think twice before stealing land anyway."

This idiot got his whole family killed.

Now as a counter example to the loaded language
used the article posted by drdon I said this:

The report could also be written like: "Land thief David Hatuel
jeopardized his entire family and paid for his crimes dearly."

Again I ask you: DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ?

I really think the case is you are an apologist for the settlements
which is the biggest roadblock to peace in the middle east.

Your problem not mine.

Rather implies a just desert. Your continued recurrence to that formula suggest agreement with it. There is little in your comments to suggest otherwise.

Regardless of my position, or your position, on the legality of the settlements, and on the detrimental effect of Israeli settlement policy, there can be no question that a military operation aimed solely at killing civilians, which is what this was, beyond any doubt, is a crime of war, and can bring no benefit whatever to the cause in which it is carried out.

I posted this example to demonstrate the linguistic bias with which the article was written.

Now I agree with you regarding an act of war and a war crime.
But hey, the IDF has been trying to wipe out the Palestinians for
quite a while now. Thus my main point in this whole exchange has been:
YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW

The settlements should be stopped.

Then there is no ground for complaint at Israeli miltary actions directed at any member of the various armed Arab Palestinian irregular bodies, who have, by their crimes, certainly sowed the missiles and bullets they reap.

The idea that the Israeli military "has been trying to wipe out the Palestinians for quite a while now" is simply ludicrous: if they are attempting to do that, they are doing a damned poor job of it, as the population of Arab Palestinians has increased at least four-fold in the last half century....

not mine

Your just saying that the vicious cycle should be repeated.

I'm saying there is a solution.

Certainly it does go on and on; four-fifths of a century and counting....

that the terrorists will stop at the borders of Israel, however, even if the territories are evacuated, and families transfered.

However. The large majority of attacks in the past three years have been against Israeli civilians.

most informed people acknowledge the Palestinian death and injury toll in the last few years to be running about three to one with the Palestinians on the loosing side.

Plenty of people at DU are willing to say of the mercenaries killed or wounded in iraq had themselves to blame atleast partly because they knowingly took themselves into a war zone.

However when a "settler" moves his entire FAMILY into the line of fire he's a completely innocent harmless civilian. Maybe it would have been a better bet NOT to take his kids here

would happen. I don't. It isn't like individuals can jail land theives, so if the government won't act, people take the law into their own hands.

They are as innocent as those Palestinians killed by collateral damage. They have not made the government policy.

Who fucking voted to not pull out of Gaza if not the settlers? Who fucking terrorises Palestinians out of their houses and olive groves if not the settlers? Adult settlers are thieves that bring their kids to the robbery!

Defeat of Gaza plan brings more settlers
Concrete is poured for new neighborhood after Likud party rejects Sharon's proposal
Tuesday, May 04, 2004
REUTERS

NEVEH DEKALIM, Gaza Strip -- Jewish settlers, buoyed by the referendum defeat of a Gaza pullout plan, poured concrete yesterday for a new neighborhood while ultra-nationalist Jews moved into an Arab district of Jerusalem.

Settlers were still celebrating after the ruling Likud party rejected Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plan to evacuate all the Gaza settlements -- despite support for the initiative from most Israelis and the White House.
"We are starting a new neighborhood to tell the whole world that we are here to stay," said Esther Lillianthal in Neveh Dekalim, the largest of the settlements in the Gaza Strip, where 7,500 Jews live among 1.3 million Palestinians

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-15/108367982940030.xml

Screw the 4 kids, they deserved to be slaughtered....

hell,they might have grown up and...*gasp*...voted.






eos.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I said they are vigilantes. Vigilantes are bad but predictable where there is no law enforcement.

Not even half through the voting hours, this attack was perpetrated. It seems to me that the terrorists were voting, and against the plan.

The Likud is not the government, and as you will see, it does not make the actual policy. Stay tuned.

That speaks for itself.

Your claim has been refuted.

The terrorists say that this murder of a woman and her 4 children was retaliation for the assassinations of Yassin and Rantisi. There is no equivalency, as the 35 year old mother and her 4 daughters are in no way involved in planning or carrying out assassinations.

Yassin and Rantisi planned and initiated attacks on hundreds of Israeli citizens, and as you probably are aware, the overwhelming majority of them were Israelis who lived within the Green Line.

? I never claimed anything other than laws aren't enforced against people who violate Palestinian rights which is true. I didn't respond to your comment because it didn't appear to have anything to do with mine.

that the Likud vote was government policy, that actions in the Gaza strip was government policy. That is very naive. As I said, the murder occurred even before the vote was counted, so the attack can't be in response to government policy based on the vote, as it never happened. Not only was the vote not counted when the horrendous murders occurred, the policy was not made because of the vote.

Apparently you have confused the situation as it is, with government policy.

I am not sure what that has to do with anything I said, or what you are talking about.

with murdering the settlers? Every man, woman and child who was symbolically murdered in the attack on Sunday? Are they the criminals you claim they are who deserve the death penalty?


(copied from another thread)

and won't be because Israel thinks it is ok to steal from Palestinians.

that it OK to take out this family as representative of the violation of what you call Palestinian rights, thereby violating human rights? Do you know anything about this family, or why they were targeted?

Only after Oslo did Arafat go on record as recognizing the rights of Jews to a state of Israel. That was mid-nineties. Israelis have been living in the areas of the West Bank even before Israel was founded.
All is relevant, even if you don't want to recognize it as relevant.

She isn't some old Palestinian Jew living in a rightfully bought house in Bethleham.

says so, is that it? What ever Arafat says, you believe.

"Some old Palestinian Jew living...in Bethleham <sic>" doesn't exist because they were all evicted long ago.

? I am not particularly interested in him either. He is just a stuborn old man like Sharon, Perez and the other old geezers who want to keep this war going.

vigilantees?

It is well known that in the "territories" as they are often called, there is a great deal of lawlessness. Citizens in the US have the constitutional right to bear arms, is that not correct? Do you think anyone in Israel doesn't have that right to self-defense, or in the "territories"?

who bring their kids. Would you deny them the right to bare arms? Anyway the territories are hardly wilderness. There is just no law enforcement against Israelis who steal land. Ergo there is vigilantism which is nasty generally speaking.

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They shoot at olive farmers all time, but are continually rewarded with land that is not theirs.

I don't think that you are more imporatant or better than them. If a bunch of squatters took over land in the red states the red staters would shoot everyone including the kids, particularly if law enforcement did nothing to stop the theft.

innocent olive farmers have been "shot at"? Where do you find this as a viable statistic? It's unlikely that the settlers view unexpected guests as friendly.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=settler+shoots+farmer+Israel&btnG=Search

Ofcoarse when the thief does it, it is self defense right?

The first item says a settler is shot. We're not talking about IDF incidents here. Your claim is that many Palestinians have been shot at by settlers.

Do you know how many settlers have been murdered on the road, or while lured to make a business transaction with Palestinian neighbors? It far exceeds the incidents of settlers wounding or killing Palestinians.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34728.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/06/01/wmid01.xml

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Israeli+ambushed&btnG=Search

http://www.io.com/~jewishwb/iris/archives/256.html
http://www.bitesizeinc.net/node/view/31716

Pene Hever Settler Shoots at Olive Harvesters from Bani Na'im, 28 October, 2002, and Theft of Olive Crop.


Testimony of Muhammad Ibrahim al-Manasreh, age 52, married and father of nine, farmer, resident of Bani Na'im

The testimony was given to Musa Abu Hashahsh, at the witness' home, on 5 November, 2002



I live in Bani Na'im, a village located six kilometers east of Hebron. My family has a 500 dunum tract of land in the al-Hajuj valley. The valley is just to the north of the settlement Pene Hever.

The farmers who own lands near the settlement, including myself, have not managed to harvest olives this year due to fear of settler attacks. Some of the village farmers spoke about this to the Civil Administration. We were told to supply them with a list of the farmers who own lands near the settlement and their ID numbers in order to coordinate their arrival to the fields with the army. On Sunday, 27 October, at around 10:00 A.M., I went to the Civil Administration office in Hebron along with other farmers form Bani Na'im, including Ruhi Hussein Qassem and Ibrahim ‘Ali al-Haj, to hand in the list. We gave it to a man called Tzion. He told us to give him the license plate numbers of the cars we would be taking to the lands. We told him we couldn't know what cars we would take in advance. Tzion gave us a contact number for a man called Tareq. Tzion said Tareq worked in the Civil Administration and would be in charge of our case. We called him that day to coordinate our arrival at the lands the next day. He said that he would wait for us with some soldiers near the grave of the prophet Yachin, some two kilometers south of Bani Na'im.......

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:I-n_dj_mbrsJ:www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/021028_Settlers_Attack_at_Bani_Naim.asp+settler+shoots+farmer+Israel&hl=en

second item

Friday 1 June 2001 - Day 11 of Israel's 'cease-fire'

Suicide bombing at Tel Aviv disco kills 21. Faisel Husseini buried in Jerusalem.
Settler kills Palestinian sitting in Jerusalem cafe

.
Israel injures four Palestinians with live ammunition in Gaza

.
Israel seriously injures Palestinian near Salfit, then obstructs medical aid

.
Israel injures two Palestinians in Hebron

.
Settlers destroy Palestinian land near Nablus

.
A Palestinian child died a month after being injured in a Gaza Strip explosion (Associated Press, 1 June 2001).

Friday 1 June 2001 - Day 11 of Israel's 'cease-fire'

Suicide bombing at Tel Aviv disco kills 21. Faisel Husseini buried in Jerusalem.
Settler kills Palestinian sitting in Jerusalem cafe

.
Israel injures four Palestinians with live ammunition in Gaza

.

1 June 2001 - Settler kills Palestinian sitting in Jerusalem cafe

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights reported that:

At approximately midnight, a settler fired at Mazen Lutfi El-Joulani, 34, from Shoufat refugee camp in Jerusalem, a father of three children, wounding him with a live bullet in the head. El-Joulani was sitting in front of a café in Shoufat refugee camp when a settler fired at him. The settler was seen escaping in his car to "Pisgat Z'eiv" settlement, approximately 300m away from the incident.

El-Joulani was taken to the Israeli Hadassa hospital where he was pronounced dead on Sunday, June 3, 2001. His family gave permission for his organs to be donated to save five patients, without any discrimination on grounds of nationality or religion. According to Reuters, El-Joulani's heart was transplanted to an Israeli citizen, Yigal Cohen.
Israel seriously injures Palestinian near Salfit, then obstructs medical aid

.
Israel injures two Palestinians in Hebron

.
Settlers destroy Palestinian land near Nablus

.

http://electronicintifada.net/chronology/june2001.html

third item

Settler shoots in air as Palestinians near his Jewish community
Jerusalem Post, October 25, 2002
In Samaria, another confrontation between Israelis and Palestinians over the issue of olive picking took place Friday afternoon.

PA intelligence officer arrested with IDF uniforms
Jerusalem Post, October 24, 2002
IDF uniforms, two guns, and documents were found by police in the home of a Palestinian intelligence officer arrested in Akaba, in Samaria, early Thursday morning.

Palestinians brutally driven from olive farms
Muslim News, October 24, 2002
It’s an all-too common tale of narrowly escaping death whilst trying to make a living in Palestine. Badawe Awad, a farmer from the West Bank village of Awarta, just south of Nablus, is lucky to be here.
A Palestinian child died a month after being injured in a Gaza Strip explosion (Associated Press, 1 June 2001).


Settler clubs 11 yr old to death with rifle butt, and gets a cruel 6 month sentence.

Suzanne Goldenberg in Jerusalem
Monday January 22, 2001
The Guardian

A Jewish settler who clubbed a Palestinian child to death with a rifle butt was sentenced to six months' community service yesterday in a decision denounced as an outrage by human rights organisations.

The Jerusalem district court said it decided not to jail Nachum Korman for the killing of 11-year-old Hilmi Shusha four years ago because he had only been convicted of manslaughter by negligence, and had served eight months in prison. It fined him 70,000 shekels (about £11,600).

The sentence handed down by the Jerusalem district court yesterday is especially suspect because it was determined by the same judge, Ruth Or, who acquitted Korman at his original trial after rejecting evidence from witnesses and the state pathologist.

That verdict was overturned by the supreme court, which convicted him of manslaughte

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:y1p7oj-OKWkJ:www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,426101,00.html+settler+kill+children&hl=en

Settlers bombing children and soccer statdium

On June 2, 1980, the Livni cell planted bombs in the cars of Nablus Mayor Bassani Shaka'a, who lost both of his legs, and Ramallah Mayor Karim Khalaf, who lost half his foot. They also put a bomb on the garage door of elBireh Mayor Ibrahim Tawil, which blinded an Israeli soldier who tried to defuse the explosive. The terrorists claimed later that their aim in attacking the mayors was "not to kill them; killed they would become martyrs, while wounded they would serve as a living ongoing deterrent. " A TNT bomb exploded that same day in a crowded Hebron market injuring 11 Palestinians, including four children.

"Regional Defense"

The Livni group obtained the weapons used in bombing the mayors' cars from the Israel Defense Forces as part of a "regional defense program." They also stole mines left over from the Syrian defense positions on the Golan Heights. As with Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the settlers were issued weapons for serving in the Israeli military reserve, which they were permitted to do near their settlements.

In October 1992 TNT bombed a soccer stadium in Hebron, injuring two
Palestinian children. In February 1993, Muslim guards found bombs in two mosques in Hebron just before they exploded. In July 1993, two of the three men released in 1991 carried out a militarystyle assault on Hebron University. Wearing Arab clothing and driving a West Bank car, the settlers sprayed machine-gun fire and tossed hand grenades, killing four students and seriously injuring over 30 others.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Hv5mmU00CKgJ:www.wrmea.com/backissues/0694/9406008.htm+settler+kill+children&hl=en

Settlers bomb children in school

1. School children attacked in village near Hebron

September 18, 2002 - The Palestine Monitor

Six Palestinian pupils, between the ages of 6 and 13, were injured yesterday when a bomb exploded in the schoolyard of Zeif Yatta Elementary School (south of Hebron). Two bombs were planted in the schoolyard; the first bomb went off at about 9:45 a.m. in a powerful explosion which blew out some of the windows of the school.

According to the headmaster, Dr. Youssef Abed Rabbo, it was sheer luck that a massacre didn’t take place: “The bomb went off when the classes were in session and none of the children were outside playing. Our gymnastics teacher did not come to work today; if he was here the schoolyard would have been full of pupils at the time the bomb went off. When I first heard the explosion I thought it was Israeli tank shells hitting the school, as the Israeli army comes and goes in the village constantly”.

After the bomb went off, Israeli soldiers and police arrived at the scene. A second bomb was found and detonated safely before more children could be hurt.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:760LerNEYQcJ:www.jamiat.org.za/news/spring/sept19c.html+settler+kill+children&hl=en

The day after Mazen's killing, 13-yearold Lwa'a Bacroun was walking to his home on the settlers' road that passes the edge of the Shujiya slum in Gaza city when an Israeli car was stoned. A thin bearded man in a skull cap got out and calmly shot Lwa'a in the heart from across the road. As the boy died in the sandy ditch, the religious settler got back into his car and drove away.

Two days after Lwa'a's murder, an Israeli military patrol lazily sits across the road from his home, eyeing mourners who stop to pay condolences. Unlike Abu Mazen, Lwa'a's father is too distraught to answer questions about his son's killing.

"An Israeli captain came last night and said that a settler from Gush Qatif settlement turned himself in,'' the boy's uncle explains in fluent English. "The man told police he shot at the ground. The oldest boy of this poor family returns from school and is killed in cold blood. What are we supposed to think of them when they keep killing our children? Do they really want peace?''

As we leave, two yellow-plated Israeli cars full of bearded men in skull caps pass the house. They are settlers heading south to Gush Qatif, where their neighbor and co-religionist remains free of any charge in connection with killing a 13-year-old. It is a typical Israeli reaction to the killing of Palestinian children. Still claiming moral superiority to the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the Israeli government's behavior in Gaza is criminally hypocritical. Listen to the best among them:......

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:lawXi-z8AVwJ:www.wrmea.com/backissues/0393/9303025.htm+settler+kill+children&hl=en

Bunch of attacks on children and another telling of the club beating story.

On October 15, in Yaíbad near Jenine, 13 year old Zayid Fathi was kidnapped by settlers in a private car as he was walking home from school. He was beaten.

Also on Oct. 15, in the same area, four Palestinian children were attacked by a group of settlers who severely assaulted one of them, Mahmoud Baíjawi, who was beaten unconscious.

On October 16, settlers from Shirfee Shimron near Nablus set up road blocks and stoned Palestinian cars. 12 year old Yaseen Zohdi was struck by a rock and had to be hospitalized as a result.

On October 24, Jewish settlers from the Hebron settlement of Daboya set guard dogs on a group of children from the nearby Qurtuba Girl's School.

On Oct. 27, 12 year old Sahar Abdulraouf Al-Muhtaseb, was beaten byJewish vigilantes in Hebron as Israeli soldiers watched.

February 10, 1996, while a 12-year-old Palestinian boy from Nablus was imprisoned in an Israeli jail, he was raped and sodomized by a Jewish soldier. The soldier removed the child, blindfolded and handcuffed, from his cell, and took him to another part of the prison where he sodomized him.....

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VhuhmAMvxUsJ:www.hoffman-info.com/palestine8.html+settler+kill+children&hl=en

Baruch Goldstein kills 29 at the tomb of the Patriarchs.

Hebron Massacre (February 25, 1994)

What happened: American-born West Bank settler Dr. Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims praying at the Tomb of the Patriarchs. He killed 29 Palestinians before being beaten to death by the worshippers. Settlers established a shrine to him that was forcibly removed by the Israeli Government only in 1999. His father later wrote that "Perhaps someday our leaders will remove the blinders from their eyes, stop running with the deluded, persecuting pack and find the integrity to print the truth about Baruch's final act of self-sacrifice."

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:_rxxvy2R5sEJ:members.fortunecity.com/911/palestine/israeli-massacres.htm+mosque+massacre+terrorism+jewish&hl=en


We could go on and on.

You are going back up to 10 years for this information. During the current Intifada is the question. Hundreds of Jes have been killed by snipper fire, including a 10 month old baby girl in her father's arms. Also tow children hiding under their mother's bed, in their own home. That is within the past 3 years.

Except for the Baruch Goldstein massacre, the other two stories are unsubstantiated.

. I don't know how to substantiate anything I read in the media other than being on the scene.

This post has three items, one from 1993, one from 1997 and the Goldstein item which is 1994. You substantiate items by getting a reputable source. The item from '97 indicated that the settler involved turned himself in saying that the death was unintentional. That is a discrepancy that should be followed up.

.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x68488#68531

I posted this in a very recent thread after you claimed that settlers didn't attack innocent civilians. These murders are substantiated, Gimel. To claim they're not is as ridiculous as someone claiming that the murders of the settler and her children is unsubstantiated...

Attacks by Israeli settlers against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have continued during the intifada. In most cases the IDF does not intervene sufficiently promptly or vigorously - if at all - to protect Palestinians from settler violence.

On 19 July 2001, Diya Marwan Tmeizi, a baby of almost four months from the village of Idna (near Hebron), was killed when the car he was travelling in with his family on their way home from the wedding of relatives, was shot at by Israeli settlers. Two other family members were also killed in the attack, and five were wounded, including two-year-old Amira. The attack happened not far from the Tarqumiya roadblock, but the soldiers manning the roadblock did not stop the killers' car when it fled. The attack was claimed by a group which called itself the Committee for Road Safety which is reportedly linked to the outlawed Jewish right-wing group Kach.

Fourteen-year-old Nivin Jamjoum was killed on 28 July 2002 by Israeli settlers who attacked some Palestinian homes in Hebron. She was shot in the head with an M16 rifle by Israeli settlers while standing on the balcony of her home in the al-Shaludi quarter, in the old city of Hebron. Nivin's brother, 20-year-old Marwan, was wounded in the right leg. In total, 11 Palestinians were injured. None of those responsible are known to have been brought to justice.

What's a Jes?

Violet...

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I'll put it here for you yet again and capitalise who took responsibility for the attack. It was intentional and it was carried out by settlers. They claim responsibility so you saying they're not responsible is as ridiculous as someone claiming Hamas or Islamic jihad didn't intentionally carry out attacks that they've taken responsibility for...

On 19 July 2001, Diya Marwan Tmeizi, a baby of almost four months from the village of Idna (near Hebron), was killed when the car he was travelling in with his family on their way home from the wedding of relatives, was shot at by Israeli settlers. Two other family members were also killed in the attack, and five were wounded, including two-year-old Amira. The attack happened not far from the Tarqumiya roadblock, but the soldiers manning the roadblock did not stop the killers' car when it fled. THE ATTACK WAS CLAIMED BY A GROUP WHICH CALLED ITSELF THE COMMITTEE FOR ROAD SAFETY WHICH IS REPORTEDLY LINKED TO THE OUTLAWED JEWISH RIGHT-WING GROUP KACH.

Clear enough for you, Gimel? They were travelling home from a wedding...

No, you didn't miss my comment condemning attacks on children, in fact you replied to that post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x67983#68063

"Nothing justifies the murder of children, no matter whether they're Israeli or Palestinian, and nothing anyone's said has swayed me on that and probably never will..."

I hope it's not the fact that I quite rightly condemned not just the murder of Israeli children, but of Palestinian children as well that's causing the problem where you don't seem to view this comment as a condemnation of the killing of children?

Violet...

target civillians and/or children, they are terrorists, no matter which side they are on. Kach is a terrorist organization. The Israeli cabinet outlawed them, they are related to Kehane, they target civillians and I will not defend their actions. I am a solid opponent of the extremists on the Israeli side just as I am a staunch opponent of the extremists on the Palistinean side, and do not find this to be in any way contradictory.

That being said, there is a difference. The Israeli cabinet outlawed Kach. From what I could tell, not only has the Palestinian authority not outlawed organizations like Hamas, but the PLO has "provided safe haven" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) to it. Nations in the region have contributed to the funding of such charming organizations like them. As far as I could tell, the Israeli government does not fund Kach.

So, let us try to find a middle ground. Let us oppose organizations that intentionally target innocent civillians as terrorist organizations and those who fund them.

Thanks for pointing that out, elsaamo. Personally I think if the extremists on both sides and those who enable them were removed from the equation, a solution to the conflict that's fair to both Israelis and Palestinians wouldn't be too hard to find...

Violet...

The one most often cited here are the Geneva Conventions and associated Additional Protocols which discuss this in length.

See Humanitarain Law (near bottom) - http://www.unhchr.ch/html/intlinst.htm

Yes, Kach is considered one of several terrorist groups.

There is some small debate that Israel while has indeed banned Kach, it still allows and supports the actions of the people affiliated with the group including people such as Baruch Marzel, a Kach Party stalworth, who was allowed to run under the Herut Party list (as number 2) during an election which saw the disqualification of many Israeli Arabs for standing for election without any direct or indirect association to any Palestinian terrorist group. Baruch Marzel became the head of Kach following the assassination of Kahane. He also lead and helped found the Kach militia.

Another Kahanist individual allowed to continue with his activities is Rabbi Moshe Levinger. Then there is the group, Kahane Chai, founded by Kahane's son, Binyamin, is listed by the US State Department as a terrorist group, but not banned by the Israeli government. Kahane Chai has been linked to several terrorist activities against Palestinians in the OT. Thankfully following the death of the founder/leader Binyamin, the group seems to be fading more into the background.

Not quite the same, but enough to say it's not a black and white distinction.

L-

You are against the killing of children. That is wonderful. So am I. We are in agreement on that.

The may incidents of women, children being murdered as they travel, in their homes and representing no threat at all to the murderers, far exceeds the crimes of the settlers. It is not a case of pure innocent confronting absolute evil, but it comes close.

The children die regrettably but their parents behavior contributed to it. The bottom line is the settlers are molly coddled by the government and not punished when they kill. This would create vigilantism. It is bad. It would probably end if Israel were not a bigoted society that views Palestinians as inferior, and enforced laws to protect them. Their deaths are only worth six months in Jail to the Israeli courts.

The Palestinians call it land theft punishable by murder. Is that the consensus of the world as well?

The recent UN resolution seeks to apply Geneva convention 4 to the territories. The legal basis for this is disputed. That is the essence of the conflict. Furthermore, the laws are being applied in a discriminatory manner. If ridding Palestinian territory of Jews is acceptable, but a Jewish state is not, I think there is a problem in justice.

,forcing me out and moving in just because he wants it. He can do this because of a judge, who is malicious toward me, won't apply the law. That is the basis of the conflict. The Palestinians don't govern the West Bank so what punishment can the apply other than death? If Israelis won't treat Palestinians fairly they can expect this. They aren't allowed to try and jail the spoiled settlers. Only the Israelis are, and they don't.

none of the details in your scenario fit the I/P situation.

. Except for those that want to be Palestinians.

You repeat only the claims of the Palestinians.

. They just don't care about the law, because they think they are better than the Palestinians.

If you oppose attacks on civilians, that should apply to all with no excuses. If you don't agree with that, I think I can put up a much more convincing argument for the good vs absolute evil thing going the other way. I wouldn't though, cause black and white, good vs evil stuff is best left for big action flicks rather than real life...

Violet...

that there is no excuse for unprovoked attacks on civilians. Intentional attacks, like shooting four children in the head is certainly something I wouldn't expect to be happening in a society with any humanity. To have the leaders of that society boast and cheer after the event says something about the moral nature of the society. I will not draw any conclusions or parallels here.

Sorry about the typing errors on my previous post. I forgot to run the spell check.

. If you really wanted to stop the argument you would atleast agree that their are killers on both sides, and that laws should apply to settlers. You can't draw any conclusions about what Palestinians derserve as a people based on the actions of a few and it is just a few.

I've already said that there are incidents when Israelis and "settlers" have acted reprehensibly. However, the sell known facts are that hundreds of Israelis have been murdered in cold blood, for political goals and to try and intimidate the population.

See for instance:

According to several Palestinian sources, the attack yesterday was timed to send a message to Ariel Sharon and his supporters that if there is an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, it will not take place in an atmosphere where Israel has the upper hand but rather amid Palestinian acts of opposition. "We will not allow Israel to withdraw unilaterally at the initiative of Sharon," one Gaza spokesman said in a broadcast on Gulf TV.

Haaretz

Contrary to what you have claimed, the murders were not an attempt to enforce the law. It was done to maintain a reign of terror.


you would atleast agree that their are killers on both sides, and that laws should apply to settlers. -Classical_Liberal

I think that the laws you speak of are not actual laws, but claims. You want to apply them to settlers, but refuse to admit that the terrorists actions are war crimes.

.

?

The Israeli government certainly ought to enforce its own laws, which would largely put an end to expansion of settlements in the Jordan valley.

Not all settlements are on stolen land; some are on purchased acreage, and some are on state land, origionally Ottoman, maintained as state land under the Mandate, and subsequently under Jordanian administration. Others are on land seized by Israel under security regulations, and in my view, that latter catagory is tantamount to theft, when used for non-military purposes.

While it is possible to argue the Geneva Accords do not apply to the situation in the former Mandatory territory where no sovereign state exists, it is my view that they ought to apply. It is an old maxim of Common Law that where a circumstance does not precisely fit a statute, that statute ought to be interperted in light of spirit rather than letter, and it is clear the relevant provisions of the Geneva Accords are meant to protect people from being harmed by resettlement of an occupying power's population on conquered territory.

In the largest sense, the Israeli policy of settlement in the lands overrun in '67 is a bad one, because it tends to aggravate the situation, and render any peaceable solution more difficult to achieve.

What moral claim did the Ottomans' or British have over Palestinian land to begin with? To make it broader, why does any imperial power have the moral right to determine who owns the land under their rule? If such an imperial moral(versus "legal") right exists then what moral claim can anyone, anywhere ever make when their property is taken from them with such a justification?

The theft of Palestinian land was first made possible by the Ottoman Land Code of 1858 and then continued under under British rule.
"A Writing on Nonviolence by Rabbi Jon-Jay Tilsen
Ottoman Land Registration Law as a Contributing Factor in the Israeli-Arab Conflict"
http://www.beki.org/landlaw.html

Also,
http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html

Regards,

That re-ordering and modernization of the forms of land-holding, into something resembling Western ideas of title, was one of the steps of reform urged on the Ottoman Empire amid its bankruptcy by the European bankers who held its notes. There was widespread opposition to these reforms shortly after their enactment, and it took a long time before they became predominant in their effect. This was not unique to Palestine, but affected holdings throughout the modern Middle East, and in a similar way, tending to concentrate land rights in clan chiefs and the leading houses of the lands, and dis-enfranchising peasantry that had hitherto relied on traditional feudal standings. It was not too dis-similar to events several centuries in Europe, as the feudal age disintigrated, or in China in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

The question of moral right, Sir, is not one that much engages me: there have been too many moral standards, at differing places and times. Like most older imperiums, the Ottoman operated on the assumption that by moral right the ruler owned all that existed under heaven, which he might grant subjects use of, but never real ownership of, and in fact rooted that presumption on nothing more than naked might. Those persons who have held control of land throughout the ages have done so, at bottom, by right of prior conquest: this applies as much to the Arab invaders of the Levant in the whole period of Moslem conquest, as to the Romans before them, the Jews prior to them, and probably the Canaanites and their predeccessors as well. It is hardly possible to find anywhere on this earth a square inch of ground in the possession of descendants of its earliest inhabitants. The English held Palestine after the Great War by the same right, and the Mandate from the League of Nations gussied this up somewhat with the idea, still respectable in the West in those days, that there was a moral burden on the more advanced peoples of the world, as this was then construed, to tutor and guide lesser peoples into the modern world. There was nothing said about a strategic buffer for Suez against the French in Syria, or the intention to see some profit to set against the losses of treasure and life in the Great War.

Give the settlers 120 days to vacate all illegally
occupied territories. Those who will not leave should be removed
using any and all means. This is the first real step on the road
toward peace. Prove to the Palestinians that there is more in place than a land grab and the extermination of an innocent people.

and most likely the best way for the ISraelis to go about it once a peaceful solution is found is to simply say their army will leave, but I was just wondering if you were in favor of Sharon's plan in which he would have done pretty much that, albeit on a small scale?

If you recall during the LA riots the people started shooting at looters because the cops wouldn't do anything.

I don't support capital punishment, but I don't support irresponsible law enforcement either.

Do you consider the people who killed those 4 kids as

a.martyrs
b.freedom-fighters
c.militants
d.terrorists.

pick as many as you like.



edit for sp.

.

With that doublespeak, I suspect there's a job for you at
chimpy's press office.


Exactly what atrocity committed by hamas et al would you
use the word "terrorism" ??

Its really easy to pronounce....its much more pathetic to excuse.

There is no doubt about this. They don't have jails so they kill. That is why government should enforce laws against land theft.

The Palestinians are fighting for their country which is being systematically stolen by the Israelis, their people subjugated and murdered.

These settlers are doing much more than stealing land. They are on the frontlines of Israeli genocide.

I wish the Palestinians could find better methods of resistance. But without any support, against the nuclear powers of Israel and the US - they sadly, must use the crude weapons that they have.

Apparently you too are having trouble with that word.

It always amazes me how some people seem to have trouble with
the word 'terrorism'.

Oh , they dress it up with some SAT words but even on the butchering
of 4 children, the word terrorism cannot pass their lips.

Shameful.

describing the killings as terrorism.

The actions by settlers listed above are also terrorism, and there are many more of them. Blowing up Palestinians schools?

Double standards are in evidence on both sides of this thread, and it does no credit to any of you.

Drdon326, when was the last time you shed crocodile tears over the deaths of Palestinian children?

and are part a parcel of the occupation, not innocent civilians. That they drag their children along is pure stupidity.

But they are not combatants. A military act aimed solely at killing non-combatants is a crime, whether the non-combatants are innocent as lambs or guilty as sin.

I won't pretend that I approve of what the Hatuel family represented in Gaza. There is no such thing as a legal Israeli settlement on occupied land. They took advantage of and actively supported Israel's racist settlement program.

Nevertheless, the Hatuels and their children should have been allowed to live a long, peaceful and prosperous life in Haifa or Tel Aviv or some other community inside Israel. They did not deserve this.

By no stretch of the imagination is a mother and four small children a valid military target. This was murder and a war crime. The fact that the Hatuels were engaged in a great crime themselves does not mitigate that.

Palestinians and Israelis it is predictable. If nobody enforced laws against thieves people in America would shoot those thieves and probably their kids if those thieves brought them.

:-(

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