Palestinians fire Qassam rocket at Negev

Palestinians fired a Qassam rocket at the western Negev early Sunday, Israel Radio reported. The rocket, which was fired from the direction of Khan Yunis in the Gaza Strip, fell in an open area and did not cause any injuries.

On Saturday night, Israel Defense Forces troops killed an armed Palestinian who approached an IDF outpost near the Netzarim Junction in the Gaza Strip.

IDF investigators are investigating how the terrorists managed to get so close to the outpost.

Also overnight, IDF troops discovered a major weapons-smuggling tunnel in Rafah in the south of the Strip, and arrested several Palestinians found in the tunnel, Israel Radio reported. They were brought to the Shin Bet security service for questioning.

<snip>

Ha'aretz

How long will these illegal activities continue? How long will the world refuse to address these violations?

I find that hard to believe...:eyes:

Reminds me of those terrorist supporters protecting those
tunnels....hmmm.

the idf are not. That is really loose use of language.

Thats quite an achievement...before they were "vigilantes"..
now they are "terrorists".

I'm very impressed.

I don't advocate it vigilantism. Vigilantism is bad, but unavoidable when lawlessness riens. I advocate law enforcement as a preventative.

the news article is about the rockets being fired into civilian areas in Israel, as well as armament smuggling. Do you know that over 350 suicide attacks have taken place killing civilians? Do you choose to continue to overlook this?

Further note: How is the Negev supposed to be safe for the settlers to move to if Qasam missiles are targeting them already?

See, the target in this case wasn't civilians at the hands of suicide-bombers or rockets aimed at residential areas. The target was an IDF outpost and it was still falsely labelled as terrorism...

From the article:

"On Saturday night, Israel Defense Forces troops killed an armed Palestinian who approached an IDF outpost near the Netzarim Junction in the Gaza Strip.

IDF investigators are investigating how the terrorists managed to get so close to the outpost.'


Violet...

Even as a teacher is a teacher even if not presently teaching, he/she is still a teacher. Terrorists are terrorists. A terrorist strike (not mentioned here) is when terrorists strike a target.

Hope this lesson in English resolves your questions about the report.

? Otherwise that is a TRUELY unsubstantiated claim. The strike itself was war not terrorism.

This is a war on terrorism. Nothing else. Read this post for
actual attacks. Thanks.

I read the post, and saw no attacks on civilians cited. Only attacks on the IDF who are occupying the land for settlers. By calling attacks on the IDF terrorist the author discredits him/or herself.

There must be some confusion because the post referenced contains this:

Monday evening, six Israelis - two couples and their two babies - sustained minor injuries after Kassam rockets landed on their homes in Nissanit. All six were taken to hospital for treatment and later released. One house was severely damaged after a fire broke out upon impact.

Earlier, an Israeli citizen suffered moderate wounds after being hit by Kassam rocket shrapnel fired at the settlement.

Now maybe some here call all Israelis IDF, and all terrorists civilians, except when they are in the act of murdering Israeli civilians (which hardly includes anyone in their count) but two babies are certainly civilians.

the number of Palestinian civlians in it's so-called security raids. The IDF calls them collateral damage. Never the less these attacks weren't directed at civilians, and are not terrorist. If they are than the idf is terrorist. You can't have it both ways. Some of us just can't get around the notion that standards must be applied to both groups the same way.

Most of the Palestinians killed are armed terrorists. The terrorists are about 2/3 of the number killed. Even by the estimation of the Palestinians it is about half. The charge that "several times the number" for civilians is simply not true.

these rockets. So even if you consider the 2/3 terrorist(dubious assumption given the low standards for the use of this word, which obviously included attacks on the IDF), you still have a lot more civilian deaths from IDF weaponry.

surely you don't think that the Palestinian militant groups limit attacks to just the Kassam rocket? If that were the case, we would have settled this conflict long ago. More than 900 Israelis have been killed in the Intifada which began three years ago, and 673 of that number are civilian deaths. That is over 2/3. How can they (and you as a proponent of Palestinian dignity) claim that the IDF lacks discretion in this? Clearly, the blood is on the hands of the Palestinians.

since I would personally prefer that they attack the idf over civilians. Why do you not distiguish between attacks on the IDF and civilians?

The IDF are Israelis, in case you've over-looked that fact. Many soldiers are involved in non-combat service. I do distinguish between the two. The IDF are trained to carry guns, and they have a role in protecting the nation. If it were not for the IDF actions, hundreds of more civilians would have been killed in attacks. In fact, the terrorist's goal of the obliteration of Israel may have been achieved by now. I respect the IDF, and for the most part, the service men and women are honorable. I don't say that they can do no wrong, but the soldiers are human beings working under difficult and dangerous conditions in order to protect civilian lives.

Because it was fired in the general direction of a military target.

.

is the terrorists, and most of the dead are terrorists. The (ahem) inaccuracy of Palestinian attacks on Israeli military targets doesn't exactly encourage following rules and standards that are impeccable.

and not civlilians. While those aren't noncombatants they aren't terrorists either.

and who has perpetrated terrorist attacks on civilians in Israel? Are they not terrorists? Changing the hat and the label on the attackers and those who plan attacks because the IDF is defending it's nation is ridiculous. If the US military captures or kills bin Ladin, does that change bin Ladin into an innocent civilian because the military is the enemy of the moment?

people who attack the IDF are not. That is the point. You never cited an attack on civilians by the individuals involved so the bin Laden comparison doesn't wash. People have to be involved in an act of terrorism to be terrorist and there was no terrorism cited here.

Members of Hamas are terrorists. Period.

The world has been trying to address the Israeli situation for about 50 years now. There have been plans, summits, resolutions. etc. etc. What is it that you'd like the world to do given that Israel has steadfastly refused to exit from occupied land ? Kill all Palestinians ? Please, let me know what it is that mankind owes the empty wastes of the Negev, so that not another precious grain of sand is distrubed by the murderous Kassam rockets.

Is home to many kibbutzim, and more communities are planned. Also, Bedouin Israelis live there. No one was hurt this time, but it is still a provocation. It is still violating sovereignty.

Do Jews living in areas the Palestinians say are theirs exclusively mean that all Palestinians should be killed?

Pray tell me. What does the murder of innocent children mean to you? Is that your victory also?

If Israel had a healthy respect for some other regional military power, that would be a very positive step. As it is, Israel is collapsing from the burden of its unilateral power, which buys it little or nothing. (America is stuck in the very same situation).

Now I know that Kassams landing on sand don't change the basic situation. It's a non-event, and you know it. That's why I can laugh at your plea for the world to do "something" about this horror story. I have to laugh - on the same day that the president of Chechnya is blown up, there are editorials in military newspapers calling for Rumsfeld to resign, new horrible pictures coming out - your big concern is apparently that some sand could get disturbed. (Given the success rate of Kassam missiles in the past, your concern that a Bedouin might be hit is touching but not realistic).

What any of this has to do with the murder of innocent children I'm not sure. And as far as your nervousness about "violated sovereignty" - tell me how you feel about the Occupation in general ? What about 20 years spent occupying Lebanon ? What about Israel helping itself to just exactly as much Palestinian land as it sees fit to for a wall ? What about Israel's practice of simply killing opposition leaders with no trial, no evidence, no nothing. Sovereignty goes both ways, but Israelis apparently do not understand this. It's all very well for you to launch missiles at foreign countries, but when someone loads a tin can with gunpowder and sends it your way, then that's a problem that the whole world must address ? Sorry, buddy - you're going to have to handle the damage to Negev sand all on your own.

The dessert isn't the only place they are landing. Like the Katushas in Kiryat Shmona, the Kassams landing in Sederot are aimed at residential areas. The months spent in bomb shelters as a precaution saved lives. so now they pretend that it never happened because there wasn't a death toll in the hundreds.

Kassams have been falling in Sederot for over a year. That is a major reason for IDF incursions into Gaza. If the redeployment is implemented, and the rockets continue, the IDF will be back, just as in Lebanon.

The buffer-zone was maintained in southern Lebanon to prevent attacks on Israel. Now that the withdrawal is complete, the attacks are happening again.

If rockets fell in your backyard, I bet you'd be pretty upset. No, the children weren't out that day, but what if they had been? You'd hate to contemplate that, or allow another chance for it to happen.

I've heard they are really nothing more than pretend weapons, much like the 40 Scuds which were used against Israel in Gulf War I with net results of one person dead. Is this not the case ?

you are going simply on the death toll. The Kassam would kill a child and has seriously injured adults in the past couple of months. As for the scuds falling on people, it is a sure way to die. Tel Aviv became a ghost city, as people moved north or south during the Gulf War. If you want a death toll to rise, order the people out to confront soldiers.

And yet this is an outrage that the world must address ? A rock could seriously injure an adult too. Are Kassams really more dangerous than rocks ?

You should know that sitting behind 100s of nuclear weapons, fighters, missiles, helicopter gunships etc. and then whining when your opponent launches some dud rocket that doesn't hit anything isn't going to attract much sympathy. Tell you what - let's wait for a REAL attack to occur and then you can rehash your grievances another time. Deal ?

I don't care if the "world" addresses it or not, but certainly someone contributing to a discussion of the conflict should recognize the importance of these provocations which endanger human life on a daily basis. It certainly isn't a peace-time amenity.

The response is normal for such actions. That is finding the source of the attacks and eliminating them.

You have no information confirming the effectiveness of Kassam rockets.

You don't care to explain why respect for sovereignty can be squared with Israel's atrocious record of disrespect.

You no longer care if the world "addresses" the problem, which was the comment in your original post.

You dare to speak of "provocations" while Palestinians are starved, shot, beaten, killed, their houses destroyed etc.

Tell me honestly - did the "Gimel" who started this thread go home and now someone else is forced to continue this pointless conversation ? Why not just admit that a rocket landing harmlessly in the desert is not even worth bringing up, let alone demanding that the cruel world intercede ?

Bye.

If the conversation is "pointless" to you, why are you pursuing it in the name of "the world"?

Provocation is a kind word for terrorist attacks killing more than a thousand Israelis? Thanks for your non-interest.

Kassams are lethal, for your information. They are not a feather balloon.

You say the Kassam is not a feather balloon - I could have worked this out myself. But what I want to know is - how many of the thousand Israeli deaths were caused by this weapon. My belief at this point would have to be - very, very few. It's not like a bomb belt or a car bomb, something which really can do damage. Instead, I see it as having more in common with Saddam's infamous "drones of death", which were basically model airplanes. And until you convince me that it really is a weapon which has actually hurt somebody, well then I laugh at your attempt to make an issue of it. And I see it as an example of a pattern whereby people who are all too well-armed constantly claim that Mr. X or Mr. Y represents a grave danger to their personal/ethnic/national survival.

It's like a thing they had on CNN some time back, where they asked you to imagine being at a football stadium with 25,000 fans and knowing that sometime in the next year, ONE of those fans would be killed by a terrorist (this was to help us understand the gravity of the situation Israel faces). I had to laugh - 1 in 25,000 ? Is this really so bad ? Life is full of dangers, many of which are really greater than the Kassam. Believe me, if Israel had occupied most other regions of the world for 35 years, the threat of an occasional tin-can missile would be the least of your worries. Fortunately, your opponents are pipsqueaks militarily. Why not admit this to yourself ?

While we sit idly discussing the menace posed by Kassam to grains of sand in the Negev, 100s of Palestinians have lost their homes in Gaza. Compared to that, your talk of provocation, respect for sovereignty, the need for international action etc. is just simply, utterly absurd.

Look, I'm not taking the Kassam attacks in isolation. Apparently you are. It is another attempt to steal Israel from the Israelis. You have no thought for the residents of the Negev, yet those 7000 residents of the Gaza Strip are expected to move there. Get it yet?

Of course it's not bad to be killed by a terrorist, especially if it's not you. Even worse, I imagine, it would be to be left a vegetable existence after one of the attacks.

Have you ever seen a photo of a Kassam missile? Those that were launched at the residents of Sederot look large enough to kill. They have done significant property damage. This has gone on over the past year. Okay, so you don't live there. Neither do I. Obviously, it doesn't concern you. I think that if Cuba launched a missile half that size hitting US property, the island of Cuba would be no more.

Two Kassam rockets fell in the southern community of Sderot a short time ago, moderately wounding a one-and-a-half-year-old baby. The baby's mother was admitted to Soroka Hospital in Beersheba for shock after one of the rockets landed in the yard of the family's house, Israel Radio reported.

A second rocket also landed in a residential area but didn't wound anyone, and a third rocket landed in an open field, Channel Two reported.

March 5, 2002 Jerusalem Post



Sunday January 27, 2002

High alert in Gaza Strip after Kassam rocket attack

JERUSALEM (January 27) - The security forces are on high alert in the Gaza Strip after Palestinians intensified mortar attacks on Israeli targets over the weekend in the area and fired three Kassam rockets at the Erez industrial zone on Friday morning.
Jerusalem Post

February 7, 2002

IDF thwarts delivery of Kassam rockets from Nablus to Jenin

<snip>
The Palestinian residents of the village surrounded the vehicle and tried to attack the company. The soldiers said that they left the village with hundreds of Palestinians throwing molotov cocktails at them. The soldiers fired warning shots at the crowd, and no injuries were reported.

A senior General Staff officer told Ha'aretz that the Palestinians planned to fire the rockets at the northern city of Afula and the Jezreel Valley, within the next few days.

"This incident shows that the Palestinians have not changed any of their intentions, despite the relative quiet of the last few days," said the officer.

The IDF intends to use the incident in its public relations efforts, to demonstrate that despite renewal of talks, the Palestinians continue to try carrying out terror attacks.

<snip>
Haartz

More rockets


Sept 26, 2002

Also:

Monday evening, six Israelis - two couples and their two babies - sustained minor injuries after Kassam rockets landed on their homes in Nissanit. All six were taken to hospital for treatment and later released. One house was severely damaged after a fire broke out upon impact.

Earlier, an Israeli citizen suffered moderate wounds after being hit by Kassam rocket shrapnel fired at the settlement.

This morning, two Kassam rockets struck houses in the settlement. Fortunately, no injuries were reported although several structures sustained damage. Palestinians fired a total of 16 Kassam rockets at Gaza Strip settlements on Monday.
Maariv


Maybe you could find someone to pitch a tent out there in the Negev where the last Kassam fell. Find out if they are lethal, and how likely it is for someone to be killed by one.

Since 2002, your research has turned up one moderate wounding and other minor injuries. Big effin deal !

I'm sure it would be nice to have enemies armed only with nerf bats, but unfortunately this is the real world. My advice is to suck it up and not say another word about the dreaded Kassam.

No, we don't need hundreds of Israelis out there standing to get their heads bashed in with Kassam rockets.

The facts have proven that the rocket is not only deadly, but that the Palestinians have made thousands of them, some of which have been confiscated.

Apache gunship - deadly

Merkava tank - deadly

Atomic bomb - deadly

Kassam rocket - a fricking joke.

Give it a rest.

Because IT SCARES THE SHIT OUTTA PEOPLE AND THEY STAY IN THEIR HOUSES. THEY DON'T GO OUT OR LET THEIR KIDS GO OUT.

because your kids can't go out to play next door ? I'm still not impressed. There are plenty of places in the US where children can't play, and it's not because of fantasy weapons that never kill anyone. It's because of real deadly weapons.

P.S. WHAT'S WITH THE CAPS ?

Gaza is crowded, but then so is the entire area. Why is it a prison to you? Do you think making Israel the biggest human sacrificial arena will solve the problem?

The Kassam rocket factories have been destroyed by the recent operation. As usual, the IDF acts heroically.

civilian procedures, exposure to overwhelming punitive force at any time with no standards of behavior, interference in personal affairs, large risk of injury or death. Gaza meets or exceeds all these criteria. It has a wall around it. No one can enter or leave without approval of hostile authorities.

Re: the recent heroic operation. Does this mean that we can all stop worrying about the dreaded Kassam rockets ? I expect the children will be coming out to play once again.

The authorities are not necessarily hostile. Yet the incidents of bomb attacks at certain gates promote vigilance.

The risk of death is minimal, unless you are armed terrorist. Life proceeds, with disruptions to be sure. But the attacks in recent months show that conflict is the name of their game. Can't blame that all on Israel. The fence is not a wall, and it is necessary. So you would like freedom to travel from Gaza to Israel without the restrictions of law? I think they will have to learn to live with the partition, even though they reject it.

The 20 pounds of TNT payload guarantees MORE than sufficient explosive power to prove lethal. What it is not is very accurate as it lacks a guidance system. Also from what I understand it has a crude detonator that only fires upon impact which means that most of the rocket is already burrowing itself underground during impact.

However the military value comes in that there is NO warning for such a launch, it is highly mobile, has enough range as to protect the individual launching it, and is fairly cheap to build. And as time goes by and Hamas gets more experience with them, they will start to work out the engineering bugs, probably starting first with the detonator then with the guidance system. This latter fact is what is causing the fear in Israel.

For some technical background, see:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,202159,00.html

I hadn't found the technical information that this article has. Even though it deals with the Kassam 2, and already the Kassam 3 has been developed and implemented, this confirms that the properties are enough to cause serious injury or death.

So has it already ? A "bottle-rocket" compared to Saddam's mighty Scuds (which themselves killed exactly one person) ?

More hyperventilation. You're helping to make my point.

I think they killed several people in Qatar. It doesn't have to strike only Israel. If it can demolish buildings and cause craters, it can kill. If it were to hit a fuel supply, it would cause significant explosive repercussions. That was a major concern in Israel. People can run for cover, but some things can't be moved.

Which has killed many people. The strength of the rocket and the basis of the fear is not what it is now, but what it could easily become.

But a rhetorical question for you. Why does Hamas fire them if not to provoke fear and cause injury? They have gone to a lot of trouble to design and build something which is obviously not intended to be a large bottle rocket designed to celebrate Mardi Gras.

Maybe because they have few good alternatives. People stick pins in voodoo dolls. I spend time wishing ill to Mark Kimmitt and Michael Savage, apparently with no ill effect, although I think Kimmitt's swoon might have been caused by me.

If I want to know how dangerous or effective a weapon is, I'll look at what it has done. If it has done approximately nothing, why should I worry ? After all, we're living in the golden age of weapons. They are so many more impressive systems to think about.

Same deal with anthrax. Same deal with dirty bombs. All imaginary boogeymen to scare the gullible.

My advice is to suck it up and not say another word about the dreaded Kassam.

You'll put an eye out with that thing!

but they have only been used to target the idf, so I don't consider them illegitmate like suicide bombings. I don't think war agains the idf is unfustified, even if ineffective.

The town of Sederot is not the IDF. The inaccuracy of the firing limits effectiveness against a pin-point target. It's main effect is to cause fear, and fear would not be caused if it wasn't capable of inflicting injury and death.

. They instill fear too when they kill civilians, bulldoze homes, kill protesters, and rock throwers and the like. Like it or not I just don't think you are better than the Palestinians.

Israel is here to stay. That is a fact, not a value judgment.

I called for two states or a multicultural one.

This article has a photograph of terrorists with a Kassam rocket.

http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000380.html

however big or small, speaks for many with his actions. You two have gotten on quite a tangent with this Kassam rocket stuff, so lets re-direct:
Ex-Jew - what is a more common occurance, an IDF attack/attempted attack against civilians in Gaza or W.B., or a Palestinian attack/attempted attack against civilians in Israel? (no militant leaders may be considered civilians, since they would be the Palestinian equivelant of military targets). This question seeks an answer as to who respects their adversaries right to exist more.

Gimel - Pretend Palestine had a 50 billion dollar GNP, and Israel had the 50 bucks Palestine made last year (not counting Yasser's green-lined pockets, cuz in all fairness, no Palestinians see that money). If Palestine was building a wall for their "safety", yet at the same time expanding their nation with settlements on what you see is YOUR land, wouldn't you feel like you were being pushed into the sea? The most valuable thing one might own is a free rocket thier neighbor gave them. Tell me, do you think any Israeli's would fire those rockets at the Palestinian settlements?


That's pretty fair on both sides. Oh, and the word of the day is "rhetorical". I hope you can both see the other side as clearly as you see your own.

The issue is why Gimel would beg the world's assistance in "addressing" the issue posed by homemade rockets kicking up dust in the Negev.

I really do not care to speculate on the overall level of respect for the adversary's right to exist. I am pretty sure it is low on both sides.

The point I was making is that there is a very strong tendency for Israeli supporters to over-dramatize the risks that they face, in large part as a result of a misguided national policy of occupation and confrontation. It makes me angry to hear that these missiles which have apparently never killed anyone are now to be high on the list of the world's priorities. Just like Saddam's drones of death, exaggerations of this kind are useful only for distracting people from the real and overwhelming imbalance of weaponry.

Does Gimel care that US troops are currently killing about 30 Iraqis per day ? Does he think the world should address that issue ? I find it difficult to share a discussion with someone who identifies so closely with grains of sand in the desert. That lack of perspective is the real issue I was trying to explore.

Mr. x did seem quite happy that the children can go out to play, at least some time soon. There may be some Kassam rockets fired still, from some hidden stash, but production has been halted. That seems to have brought closure to our discussion.

However, in this latest response he attacks my priorities. Israel was once regarded as a wasteland, a pile of sand. In fact, it was once quite uncultivatable. However, over the past 60 - 100 years, Jews and later Israelis revived the quality of the land. The Arabs also participated in that, contributing labor (for which they were compensated). If he thinks I have an over-identification with a grain of sand, he is sadly underestimating me, deriding Israel, and ignoring all that I have bothered to discuss with him.

when Israel stops settling the west bank. As for your claims of cultivation. Well, you had more money to cultivate the land with. So it isn't much of an achievement. The Palestinians weren't compensated for the land that was stolen and in most cases were paid a pittance for their labor after Israel made them homeless beggers. You sound like a Walmart apologist if you consider those wages "compensation".

There will always be some excuse for murder when in fact there is no justification.

Money to cultivate the land? We are talking about pre-state and early days of the State. There was little money, and much poverty. The land was cultivated for food and survival.

Israel has raised the standard of living for all in the area.

again. These things are also known to happen when the Israeli airforce violate the airspace of its neighbors. I am not making any excuse for murder. War on the IDF isn't murder even if innocents are killed, unless you think the idf are murderers.

As for raising the standard of living. Yeah right.

Nutritional Assessment of the West Bank & Gaza Strip

Gaza Strip faces a distinct humanitarian emergency; CARE International Assessment finds high levels of Malnutrition, Anemia and Micro-nutrient Deficiencies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
JERUSALEM (January 2, 2003) - CARE International today released a 67-page report with findings of a Nutritional Assessment carried out in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The survey indicates that Global Acute Malnutrition (GAM) for children aged 6-59 months stands at 13.3% in the Gaza Strip and 4.3% in the West Bank. In a normally nourished population, the figure would be 2.3%. Global Chronic Malnutrition (GCM) for the same age group is 17.5% in the Gaza Strip and 7.9% in the West Bank. These findings are based on a survey of 1,004 households randomly selected in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Preliminary assessment results were released in August 2002.

The Assessment's other findings provide important data regarding household level access to food, the ability of the market to provide various products and the ability of clinics to respond to the rising levels of malnutrition and anemia. These findings reveal that the current nutritional crisis is exacerbated by market disruptions from curfews, closures, military incursions, border closures, and checkpoints; decreased caloric and micronutrient intake by preschool aged children; and the fact that healthcare providers may not be adequately identifying and diagnosing malnutrition in their communities.

Unlike the levels of malnutrition, the prevalence of anemia among children 6-59 months of age varies little between the West Bank (43.8%) and the Gaza Strip (44%). Four of five children in both areas have inadequate iron and zinc intake, deficiencies which cause anemia and immune deficiencies, respectively. In both areas over half the children have inadequate caloric and vitamin A intake while half the children have inadequate folate intake. Non-urban areas of the Gaza Strip fared worse in all categories of intake. A large percentage of reproductive-aged non-pregnant women have deficiencies in energy, iron, folate, and zinc consumption, critical for healthy fetal development. Reproductive-aged women also show a 15-20% decrease in per diem calorie and protein intake compared to 2000.................

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/6a58b2b41de887e2c1256ca8003800d0?OpenDocument

The air space violations are claimed by Lebanon. The Gaza strip is not a sovereign nation, and no violation of "air space" is at issue here. Again, this has no relevance to attacking civilian populations. Whether of not deaths were caused is not the proof of the potential to cause death and severe injury.

The nutritional assessment of the West Bank and Gaza today are a result of the intifada, and the predictable closures that resulted, as well as the misappropriation of funds by the PA.

The raising of the level of standards of living from the levels of the 1930's, when the land was not able to support any more than a few 1000 individuals, to today, where more than 9 million individuals live in the same area is the accomplishment that I was referring to.

n/t

The commentary is starting to repeat itself and has ceased bearing any useful fruit.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground