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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 10:42 AM
Original message
Israeli Helicopter Strike Did Not Kill Civilians
Contrary to reports, the IDF says that it is not clear how 10 Palestinian terrorists and civilians were killed this afternoon - but it was definitely not a result of Israeli helicopter fire.

IDF Spokesperson Brig.-Gen. Ruth Yaron said that it could be that the victims were killed as a result of Arab-placed explosives, as the incident occurred on a route that is full of explosives. She recounted what happened this afternoon:
"A group of armed terrorists set off on the route from Tel Sultan towards our forces, amidst a group of civilians. An IDF helicopter fired one warning shell towards an open area, and our films show clearly that it did not cause any casualties. At the same time, warning flashes were fired - but the terrorists continued. The ground forces then fired towards them, but the terrorists continued to advance. At this point, a tank force fired four shells towards an empty building - and at this point they were killed. It is still not clear how; we are reviewing the films. But don't forget that this took place in an area that has been the scene of warfare for two days, a city under curfew, where the civilian population is used as hostages by the terrorists to protect their activities, and on a road that is filled with explosives placed by the terrorists - our army vehicles don't travel on it for that reason."

<snip>

More..
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. the Palestinians killed other Palestinians
so the blame could be placed on the idf. sounds reasonable to me
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah.
Just like the Palestinians were 'dismantling their own houses' yesterday to make the IDF look bad.

Insert eye roll here.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Since you were there
and have the real story, you should know.

:eyes:
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Your stories suffer from the same flaws
with the added one that this is an Israeli far right paper. Citizens have to use information they have read in papers to determine the correct policy since most of us can't afford constant travel. Otherwise we would have rule by the wealthy.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Early reports
It will take time to discover the truth.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. It only takes alot of time for those who have motive to stall
.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
28. No time at all
for conclusions to be drawn from afar.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. It really helps when the IDF keeps changing it's story...
Hey, how come the same conclusions are being drawn by Israelis living in Israel? How do you explain that?


Violet...
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that being present
at every event was a prerequisite for discussing the relevant political/socio-economic issues.

Guess other things my absence precludes me from discussing...

9/11
War on Iraq
Any event IN the Whitehouse
Any speech George Bush has ever made (unless seeing on TV counts)
The Oscars
Most out-of-town sporting events

(and BTW - Just for the record - I was quoting a spokesperson for the IDF from an earlier post. I just don't believe him.)

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Non-belief
That's alright. Snap judgments work better. It gives the appearance of being profound.

You can discuss them as much as you like. But I don't have to believe your statements either.

The Palestinian news reports and claims are not the final assessment. So I've cautioned you to wait.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. The Palestinians destroyed their own homes, then shot themselves, right?
If the IDF says it - it must be so. Disgusting animals.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Well, why not?
The Israel-is-always-right-and-always-holy-and-can-do-no-wrong crowd never seems to have a problem making snap judgments as far as the Palestinians are concerned.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Snap judgments
Like the responsibility for suicide attacks, Arafat's backing of terrorist organizations, what else do you accuse me of?

I don't say "Israel" has a perfect record. However, the people have a democratic government and have a right to act to protect it's citizens from harm.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Israel is not democratic
If it were, it wouldn't treat its Israeli Arabs as second class citizens, and it would have granted citizenship to all Palestinians living within her borders and not be fearful of a Palestinian majority.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. No such status
Everyone has equal status. The Muslim Arabs don't participate in the defense of their country. Other than that, they are equal. Veterans do get some benefits, but they do in other democratic countries also, so I can't see that as a justifiable complaint.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. The arabs on the west bank don't have equal status
but must live under the yoke of the idf, the knesset, and the settlers anyway.

The muslims in Israel can't use public lands, and don't get all the state educational and health benefits of non-=muslims. Their schools are underfunded, and every effort is made to make sure they move eventually. Like not granting building permits to them to ad on to their houses, or revoking their right to live in various neighborhoods.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. but YOU know the truth
because the IDF told you so???
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. The spin gets no more ridiculous than this
Everyone in the world trying to make poor innocent little ole Israel look bad...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. Prove it.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. OK
Edited on Fri May-21-04 01:33 PM by Classical_Liberal
At an AIPAC session on Sunday night, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom proclaimed in a speech praising Secretary of State Colin L. Powell: "We have followed with great admiration your efforts to mobilize the international community to disarm Iraq and bring democracy and peace to the region, to the Middle East and to the rest of the world. Just imagine, Mr. Secretary, how much easier it would have been if Israel had been a member of the Security Council."

A parade of top Bush administration officials -- Powell, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, political director Kenneth Mehlman, Undersecretary of State John R. Bolton and Assistant Secretary of State William Burns -- appeared before the AIPAC audience. The officials won sustained cheers for their jabs at European opponents of war in Iraq, and their tough remarks aimed at two perennial foes of Israel, Syria and Iran. .....

When Rep. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.) and Leon S. Fuerth, the former foreign policy adviser to Al Gore, sat down with Burns for a session yesterday titled "the Future of the Middle East," the subject was almost exclusively Iraq.

Kirk said the war would be "longer and more expensive than we think," and noted efforts the U.S. military had made to defend Israel. When Fuerth wondered whether there is too much "happy optimism" about Arab democracy, Kirk won cheers and an ovation for rejecting the charge. "God willing, we're going to have a great victory in Iraq,"
said AIPAC's Steve Rosen, the moderator

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63578-2003Mar31?language=printer

From AIPAC's website

The President signed the Syria Accountability Act into law on December 12, 2003. This legislation seeks to impose sanctions on Syria, including cutting off U.S. trade and downgrading diplomatic relations with Damascus, until Syria stops supporting terrorism, working to acquire weapons of mass destruction and illegally occupying Lebanon. A leading sponsor of terrorism, Syria also has harmed American efforts to rebuild Iraq by allowing terrorists who have carried out attacks against American soldiers to cross into Iraq from its territory. The Syria Accountability Act is designed to serve as an additional pressure to encourage Syria to curtail these dangerous activities. Thank your representatives and senators for their support of this legislation.......

http://www.aipac.org/Action1.cfm

AIPAC and the Iraqi National Congress


By Nathan Guttman
Ha'aretz
April 07, 2003


WASHINGTON - An unusual visitor was invited to address the annual conference held last week in Washington by AIPAC, the pro-Israeli lobby in the United States: the head of the Washington office of the Iraqi National Congress, Intifad Qanbar. The INC is one of the main opposition groups outside Iraq, and its leaders consider themselves natural candidates for leadership positions in the post-Saddam Hussein era. Qanbar's invitation to the conference reflects a first attempt to disclose the links between the American Jewish community and the Iraqi opposition, after years in which the two sides have taken pains to conceal them.

The considerations against openly disclosing the extent of cooperation are obvious - revelation of overly close links with Jews will not serve the interests of the organizations aspiring to lead the Iraqi people. Currently, at the height of rivalry over future leadership of the country among opposition groups abroad, the domestic opposition and Iraqi citizens, it is most certainly undesirable for the Jewish lobby to forge - or flaunt - especially close links with any one of the groups, in a way that would cause its alienation from the others.

"At the current stage, we don't want to be involved in this argument," says a major activist in one of the larger Jewish organizations.....

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0377.html

Some see victory extending beyond Iraq

Administration supporters also hope Saddam's fall will weaken Syria's economy. The influential lobby group, the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), has been arguing that future Iraqi oil shipments should no longer be exported through Syria but through Turkey and Jordan instead.

The Bush administration also is stepping up efforts to undermine the government of Iran, which along with Iraq and North Korea forms President Bush's "axis of evil." The United States has a new Web site in Iran's Farsi language and is increasing anti-regime broadcasts on radio and TV.

John Bolton, the hawkish undersecretary of State, told an AIPAC convention last week, that "in the aftermath of Iraq, dealing with the Iranian nuclear weapons program will be of equal importance as dealing with the North Korean nuclear weapons program."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-10-iraq-diplomacy_x.htm


now the infamous

A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm
by Richard Perle

Moving to a Traditional Balance of Power Strategy

TEXT:

We must distinguish soberly and clearly friend from foe. We must make sure that our friends across the Middle East never doubt the solidity or value of our friendship.

Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions. Jordan has challenged Syria's regional ambitions recently by suggesting the restoration of the Hashemites in Iraq. This has triggered a Jordanian-Syrian rivalry to which Asad has responded by stepping up efforts to destabilize the Hashemite Kingdom, including using infiltrations. Syria recently signaled that it and Iran might prefer a weak, but barely surviving Saddam, if only to undermine and humiliate Jordan in its efforts to remove Saddam.

But Syria enters this conflict with potential weaknesses: Damascus is too preoccupied with dealing with the threatened new regional equation to permit distractions of the Lebanese flank. And Damascus fears that the 'natural axis' with Israel on one side, central Iraq and Turkey on the other, and Jordan, in the center would squeeze and detach Syria from the Saudi Peninsula. For Syria, this could be the prelude to a redrawing of the map of the Middle East which would threaten Syria's territorial integrity.

Since Iraq's future could affect the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly, it would be understandable that Israel has an interest in supporting the Hashemites in their efforts to redefine Iraq, including such measures as: visiting Jordan as the first official state visit, even before a visit to the United States, of the new Netanyahu government; supporting King Hussein by providing him with some tangible security measures to protect his regime against Syrian subversion; encouraging — through influence in the U.S. business community — investment in Jordan to structurally shift Jordan’s economy away from dependence on Iraq; and diverting Syria’s attention by using Lebanese opposition elements to destabilize Syrian control of Lebanon.

Most important, it is understandable that Israel has an interest supporting diplomatically, militarily and operationally Turkey’s and Jordan’s actions against Syria, such as securing tribal alliances with Arab tribes that cross into Syrian territory and are hostile to the Syrian ruling elite.

King Hussein may have ideas for Israel in bringing its Lebanon problem under control. The predominantly Shia population of southern Lebanon has been tied for centuries to the Shia leadership in Najf, Iraq rather than Iran. Were the Hashemites to control Iraq, they could use their influence over Najf to help Israel wean the south Lebanese Shia away from Hizballah, Iran, and Syria. Shia retain strong ties to the Hashemites: the Shia venerate foremost the Prophet’s family, the direct descendants of which — and in whose veins the blood of the Prophet flows — is King Hussein......

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/archive/1990s/instituteforadvancedstrategicandpoliticalstudies.htm

Bush received 23 standing ovations Tuesday in his speech to AIPAC, in which he defended his Iraq policy and reiterated his administration’s strong support of Israel. That support won him thunderous ovations throughout the speech, with a smattering of attendees holding up four fingers and shouting, "Four more years!"

While AIPAC’s membership is traditionally Democratic, many AIPAC voters have said they will back Bush in November, because of his stance on Israel.

Bush spent much of his speech defending an Iraq policy buffeted by casualties and scandal. He said he remained committed to defeating insurgents in Iraq and transferring power there to a U.S.-friendly government.

"We will not be intimidated by thugs and assassins," Bush said. "We will win this essential, important victory in the war on terror."

Bush has faced much criticism for the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the failure there to find weapons of mass destruction, which he cited as the primary justification for war, and the violence that has continued to plague Iraq since the end of large-scale hostilities last year. Among many supporters of Israel, however, the war is seen largely as positive, with the ouster of Saddam Hussein considered a boon to Israel’s security.....

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=12271

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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Thank you!
Thanks for posting this. The total, deafening silence from our friends, especially the one who demanded that you "prove it", is very telling, isn't it?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Ah yes. Please bookmark this
.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. Self-deleted.
Edited on Wed May-19-04 12:10 PM by denverbill
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Inarticulate comments and rule-breaking like that will...
...not help the congress of discourse, nomatter how legitimate the outrage is. Please read the rules of this particular forum and adhere to them.

PB
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Sorry. Didn't realize this forum had different rules.
My apologies.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is pathetic bullshit
and you know it. Cover for murderous scum if you want to, but the story from the IDF goons has changed by the minute.

Story 1: The helicopter did not fire a missile.

Story 2: The helicopter fired at an empty piece of ground to disperse the crowd.

Story 3: The helicopter fired at gunman in the crowd.

Story 4: Tanks did not fire on the crowd.

Story 5: Tanks fired at an empty building to disperse the crowd.

Story 6: Rinse, wash, repeat...

The problem with mind numbingly stupid remarks such as the above verbal diarrhea is the is video of the carnage.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Oh, but don't you know?
The Palestinians themselves staged the video after planting the so-called "explosives", and the heroic IDF happened to be there to save them from themselves!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. No way am I going to make a 'snap judgement'!!
I'm waiting for bullshit stories #7,8,9,& 10 before I do! ;)

I've just seen the footage of what happened for the first time. No wonder the IDF is trying so hard to come up with so many moronic 'We Didn't Do It!!!' excuses. What happened was sickening and a war crime....

Violet...
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. Reuters: Israeli Missile Hits Rafah March
Edited on Wed May-19-04 05:38 PM by newyorican
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. They blew themselves up after bulldozing their own houses
All in an anti-semetic plot to make Israel look bad.

Can I get a bag of whatever you're smoking?
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. ?? huh ??
:crazy:
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!
Edited on Wed May-19-04 09:16 PM by liberalhistorian
Complete, utter, total, pure, unrefined, absolute FUCKING BULLSHIT! I know what I saw and I know how the IDF NEVER takes any blame at all and ALWAYS says ANY Palestinians killed, even if they're children, are "terrorists." Well, BULLSHIT, enough is enough.

How much longer do Sharon and the IDF think they can get away with lying through their teeth like this and always justifying ANY of their actions and ANY AND ALL deaths by claiming "terrorism and terrorists?" I know what I saw. I saw panicked children being led away by equally panicked CIVILIAN adults, and I saw the dead, mangled, bloodied (and, in one case, decapitated) bodies of some of those children (one girl was just around five years old, guess she must have been in training on how to correctly place bombs to kill her own people and herself and then blame the IDF).

And get a load of how they were claiming that it was a "vacant lot." Yeah, Sharon ordered a hit on a vacant lot and the Palestinians just happened to throw their kids in it so they could absorb all the bullets. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
23. Deleted message
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. those anti-semitic palestinians
did a good job in timing those bombs to go off immediately after the missile flew out of the helicopter didn't they (sarcasm off)
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. Obviously the Palestinians killed themselves and demolished their homes
Edited on Fri May-21-04 12:43 AM by IndianaGreen
Who are we to question the most "moral" army in the world?

Perhaps the UN should rethink its 1947 vote that created Israel and repartition the land. Germany was responsible for the Holocaust, not the Arabs. Israel should have been created in Europe, on German land!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
38. Dead were civilians, Israeli army admits
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=524676

<snip>

"The Israeli army admitted last night for the first time that at least of the seven of the people killed in last Wednesday's demonstration here were unarmed civilians.

Brigadier-General Shmuel Zakai, commander of the Rafah "Operation Rainbow", said in Tel Aviv that one of those killed in the protest had been identified as a "terrorist" although military sources said later that they could not say whether he was armed at the time."

<snip>

"But the new admission contradicts early claims by government sources that as many as five of those killed were armed militants. It came as General Zakai also said the whole operation had claimed the lives of 41 militants and 12 civilians. Palestinian human rights groups, who put the total at more than 60 over the past fortnight, claim that the proportion of civilians is significantly higher."



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