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Activist Sentenced: Israeli Judge Silences Jewish American Activist.

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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:32 PM
Original message
Activist Sentenced: Israeli Judge Silences Jewish American Activist.
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 04:33 PM by truthpusher
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0501/S00150.htm


ISM Update: American Activist Sentenced

Monday, 17 January 2005, 10:17 am

Column: International Solidarity Movement

In Catch 22 Ruling, Israeli Judge Silences Jewish American Activist

(snip)

January 16, 2005

An Israeli judge today refused to hear US Jewish lesbian activist Kate Raphael Bender's appeal of her deportation. Judge Tal said he could not hear Raphael Bender's case because her visa was no longer valid. Her visa expired yesterday, after five weeks in detention. Nonetheless, in a minor procedural victory, the judge ruled that Raphael Bender's appeal of her deportation would remain undecided, allowing her the possibility to return at a later time and reopen the appeal..

Commenting on the ruling, Raphael Bender said, "To lock up a non- violent human rights activist until the day her visa has expired, deny her request to move the hearing so she would have time left on her visa, and then say she has no right to appeal because her visa has lapsed is conduct we would expect from a totalitarian regime, not a country which wants to be called a democracy. In violation of international law, Israeli courts have also sanctioned the construction of Israeli settlements and the segregation wall on Palestinian land, the demolition of Palestinian homes, the killing of Palestinian civilians and the detention without charge of thousands of Palestinian political prisoners. The judge's decision was a clear effort to silence dissent and avoid hearing arguments against the wall and Israel's violations of international law."
Raphael Bender was arrested at a peaceful protest against Israel's segregation wall on December 14 in the West Bank village of Bil'in. She was videotaping the beating of a Palestinian protester by Israeli border police when she was arrested. Her three month tourist visa expired yesterday, January 15 2005. She had petitioned the court to have her hearing held on or before January 9, prior to the expiration of her visa.

40 Israeli and international activists filled the court in support of Raphael Bender. After the hearing, Raphael Bender was forcibly removed from the court by Israeli police as her supporters attempted to say goodbye. She expects to be deported in the coming days.

FOR MORE INFORMATION

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0501/S00150.htm
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Two questions--
1. What would have happened to her in Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or Iran, or Indonesia.

2. Before we get round shouldered from pattin' ourselves on the back --- what would happen to her at the hands of Bernard Kerick or Assistant Sec Def Steve Cambone, or Deputy Sec Def Paul Wolfovitz or Army Intelligence Chief Boynton or General Jeffrey Miller or General Karpinski, or Spec4 Grainer or PFC Lyndie England or AG Nominee Gonzales?

    What happened to Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman for just looking at a burned out church in the US?
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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I don't follow...
in the first comment you made...are you saying that she was lucky?
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I am saying that the Israeli justice system works
I will also add that I have family in Israel who have fought the system in the courts and won.

Having been in college (in the US), in the US military, and in the "movement" during the 1960's - I would say that the Israeli Justice system works better then ours did for political dissidents.
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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well that's a given, especially...
...if you consider a percentage of Gitmo prisoners to be poli-dissidents.

Do you think the Judge in the case posted is unusual in tactic?
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. money power
It's true that folks with lots of money often win. Unfortunately, most Palestinians don't have a lot of money, so their case is ignored even though their innocense is obvious.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Except that Israel gets billions of dollars of American aid
in the form of public and private monies, and that the Israel lobby bears some responsibility for their role in the PR campaign to sell the Iraq war to the America public. They are now doing the same PR job in regards to Iran and Syria.

Do you then agree with me that Israel is no different than the other oligarchies in the Middle East, and deserves no special treatment from the United States?
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Unclear.
I am not sure what point is intended by "Israel gets billions of dollars of American aid in the form of public and private monies, and that the Israel lobby bears some responsibility for their role in the PR campaign to sell the Iraq war to the America public. They are now doing the same PR job in regards to Iran and Syria."

As a FORMER chemical engineer, with 20 plus years in industries peripheral and ancillary to the main stream (read: oil) industry, and a subsequent bunch of years in the alternative and renewable energy industry - I can tell for a fact that it doesn't cost more then $8/bbl to explore for, drill, do hydrodesulfurization, and ship oil to the US -- yet the price at the terminal in "The Gulf" is about 4 to 5 times that. That is definitely public and private monies at the pum<. Where is the money going?[br />
As to PR campaigns -- I have been in solar and wind and fuel cells for much of the rest of my career--- and as any GREENIE should know -- the Arab oil potentates and "Big Oil" fund the lobbying against solar and wind and fuel cells and biomass.

I also do not understand the point that "Do you then agree with me that Israel is no different than the other oligarchies in the Middle East, and deserves no special treatment from the United States?' since it assumes that Israel is an oligarchy -- and I would respond that Israel is less of an oligarchy then Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iraq (now and Baathist), Iran, Afghanistan(now and Taliban), Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, and (gulp) the Bushie United States of America, and (gulp, gulp) Capital Punishment happy Texas (I lived there for a while :( ). Texas ia a real oligarchy.

    If you think I have a chip on shoulder about the oil industry and carry a grudge ....
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. If you must defend a country's policies by comparing them to the worst
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 05:27 PM by w4rma
in the world and saying that they are slightly better then you have serious problems in that country.

The problem in that country is the Likud Party which is currently the majority party. It's leadership supports authoritarianism. They are in power because one of their supporters assassinated a popular leader from the opposing party when it was in power (and was honestly pushing for peace).
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. On an authoritarianism scale
I would say that Likud is less authoritarian then the present GOP.

They took Labour into the coalition -- yet Hastert has new "Majority of the majority" rule.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks for giving us the truth.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. Likud/Labor problems
Both the Likud party and the Labor party like expanding illegal settlements. A Likud/Labor union means expanding illegal settlements without a divided holy land.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. SA is as bad as Israel?
Are you saying that Saudi Arabia is as bad as Israel? That's sad. :(
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Ah, I see.
As long as there is some grosser injustice being practiced elsewhere, no injustice should be protested against.

Rrrrrrrright.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. We hear so little about
those standing up to the machine...

Thanx for posting this.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. Intentionally thwarting the "rule of law" is totalitarianism.
That's why "justice" is perverted.

Everytime anyone (especially the wealthy and/or influential who should be held to at least an equal if not greater standard of compliance and example) intentionally thwarts "the rule of law",..."justice" is rendered dead.

"Justice" is man-made or man-demolished.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Damn despicable as are any apologetics of this
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 06:26 PM by Tinoire
arrested at a peaceful protest against Israel's segregation wall on December 14
She was videotaping the beating of a ... protester by Israeli border police when she was arrested



And now locked away in jail for no other reason than documenting a crime. Locked away in jail until her visa expired and then told she has no rights. A clear warning to Progressive American Jews who are entertaining the thoughs of interfering with Israel's little right-wing "war on terror".

Despicable.


BRAVE, BRAVE WOMAN WITH MY UTMOST ADMIRATION! YOU GO GIRL! There are 10,500 google entries for you. You just GO!

Message from Kate Bender-Raphael

On Tuesday in Bil'in, a village between Budrus and Ramallah, I witnessed the brutality of the Israeli military suppressing a peaceful Palestinian protest. Villagers were protesting the construction of the Apartheid Wall on their land.

I was arrested while filming an unprovoked attack on a teenager, who was repeatedly kicked and beaten with clubs by a group of border police. Two other protestors were also wounded and soldiers then fired hand grenades at those carrying the injured to the village. Later they fired sound bombs and rubber bullets at a crowd including small children.

(snip)

I was arrested with four Israeli's and two other internationals. The Israeli's and one international were released without being charged. Two of us are being singled out for deportation because of our history as activists against the illegal Israel occupation of Palestinian land.

I came to this activism in part because of my identity as a Jewish American. The major financial support that the Isreali government expansion of illegal settlements in the Occupation of Palestinian territories and the Apartheid Wall comes from two communities who claim to speak for me.

(snip)

(snip) Apparently Jews who care about human rights and justice are not welcome here. This is a dangerous policy which makes the world unsafe for Jews everywhere.

I demand to be released to continue my work to dismantle Israeli Apartheid and replace it with policies that promote freedom and security for all!

I demand that the US government impose sanctions to force Israel to stop building the Apartheid Wall and destroy the section already built as decreeed by the International Court of Justice!

http://www.ektaonline.org/~quitpale/kate/kate12-15-04.html

==
In her petition, Raphael Bender quotes Israeli Minister Gideon Ezra who indicated that rightwing foreigners who want to protest disengagement are to be given preferential treatment by the government over left-wing activists who come to support non-violent resistance in the Occupied Territories. Ezra stated in the Jerusalem Post: "We will not prevent them (Jews) from entering, even if we know they are coming to resist the plan. There are people who come for worse causes such as to break down the security fence and
participate in ISM radical left wing activities."

Raphael Bender, who holds a legal tourist visa stated: "I am here as a Jew to promote solutions that are best for Jews and non-Jews. This policy is an undemocratic way of silencing dissent from world Jewry. Jews who are coming to block disengagement from Gaza are opposing an effort to move Israel closer to compliance with international law. In contrast, my activities support Israeli compliance with international law."


For More Information Contact:

Kate Raphael Bender: 972 (0)54-7870-198
International Women's Peace Service: 972 (0)9-2516-644 Mobile: 972(0)54 694 0602/(0)54 691 6841
ISM Media: 972 (0)59-676-782 or 972(0)54-6253451

http://www.palsolidarity.org/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?tabID=0&alias=Rainbow&lang=en-US&ItemID=732&mid=10400
==


Checks of $50 or more can be made out to the Middle East Children's Alliance, and designated to IWPS/legal funds. Checks of less than $50 should be made out directly to IWPS, and designated tolegal funds.

Please send all donations to: IWPS, 2018 Shattuck Ave, PMB 122 Berkeley, CA 94704


http://www.iwps.info/en/articles/article.php?id=570

Currently Raphael Bender is being held in Tsochar Prison near Israels border with Egypt and the Gaza strip. Kelly Minio-Paluetto, 23, of Madison Wisconsin is imprisoned in the same facility. The two women were arrested while filming the severe beating of a teenage Palestinian by a group of Israeli border police.

Raphael Bender states in her appeal, "The Apartheid Wall has been held to be illegal by the International Court of Justice. Israel has been ordered to cease construction of the Wall. The International Court ruling requires foreign governments to take steps to force Israel to comply with the ruling. Foreign governments have not met this obligation."

(snip)

Raphael Bender will represent herself in the appeals process. Israel has deported dozens of foreign activists in the last two years. This is the first time that someone has based their appeal on the responsibility of individuals to take action when governments do not. The appeal stays the deportation order. Bail has been denied, so Raphael Bender will await her court hearing in jail.

(snip)

http://www.iwps.info/en/articles/article.php?id=570


Jewish American To Challenge Israel's Segregation Wall

On Sunday January 16 at 2:00 PM, US Jewish lesbian activist Kate Raphael Bender will go to court after five weeks in an Israeli immigration prison. Raphael Bender, a resident of San Francisco, CA, will argue that she should not be deported from Israel because her activities against the segregation wall defend international law and the Jewish people. She has no lawyer and will present her own case with the help of a translator.

http://www.palsolidarity.org/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?tabID=0&alias=Rainbow&lang=en-US&ItemID=732&mid=10400

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Indeed. She's one of the many heroes fighting these injustices.
Kick for the brave Ms. Bender-Raphael!

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. She certainly is. n/t
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 07:21 PM by Tinoire
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QueerJustice Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. she most certainly is NOT......
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 08:19 PM by QueerJustice
I hope she aint in any Jewish LGBT organizations I belong to, my vote would be for expulsion......


http://www.bluestarpr.com/docs/gay.pdf
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. videotaping is a crime in Israel
Videotaping must be a terrible crime in Israel! Western folks must forget their freedoms in order to be safe when they go to Israel. In my opinion, it's best to not go to Israel at all! It must be a bad experience to video something only end up in jail.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Kate Raphael Bender is a very brave woman;
n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Kate.....
yes I agree she is a brave women, I find myself respecting the fact that she is doing something about her beliefs....that said, I dont believe she knows what shes getting herself involved in.

The ISM has declared itself an allie of the palestenians, unlike other neutral groups here, they have made themselves very clear in that respect. In a war, that is not always the brightest of things to do.

She has come here as a guest of the state of israel, she is a visitor, as such the state of israel is then responsable for her welfare. Her actions may possibly endanger both her as well as citizens of the state of israel, hence she has no right to be here.

its that simple. I have no idea of what she was videoing, but we all know that the PR is as much a part of this war as the shooting one is...that puts here again on the wrong side of host..... using tools that can damage the state of israel and its citizens.

More than that, the ISM has stated that they will shield palestenians jihadnikim....that makes them very very dangerous. (earlier statements by the ISM)....

the bottom line is that she joined a war and chose a side..there are consequnces for ones actions, deportation is getting off easy in a war zone.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. "ISM has stated that they will shield palestenians jihadnikim"
Firstly,I have no idea what this means in English; "jihadnikim"

If it means Hamas et al,then you're probably spinning a crock o'shite. Is this another anecodote,with no actual evidence,or will you provide any evidence that any member of ISM has ever said anything even closely resembling yer claim?


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Englander..
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 01:16 PM by pelsar
Jihadnikim...i use it as a general term for the various hamas, hizballa, fatah, etc. the mixed bag of groups that are fighting israel, some members are ideological some are members because of their neighborhood prefer one over the other, some because of their families.

The ISM in Gaza is unlike that of the westbank. As in the westbank there is usually a connection to israelis..

this is about Gaza, which i know about.
The ISM unlike the other international groups intentionally get in the way of IDF operations. That in itself is dangerous, it takes additional resources to Not hurt them, as the IDF has to attempt to know where they are. This further exhausts tired troops, imparing their judgements. That is one indirect method.

One was caught attempting to sneak in to gaza by the north a couple of months ago...he could have been shot....or perhaps he should have. I dont know. The troops who caught him perhaps were lucky that he wasnt a sucide bomber, next time the troops may make a judgement based on the first....getting people killed. That too is an indirect method of protecting terrorists, imparing the judgement.-creating confusion.

Army briefings told us, that the individual ISM members have a very little understanding of where they are in Gaza (understandable) and have little idea of whom they are with, also reasonable. While they have little understanding of who is "standing behind them". At times its children, other times its not. (most dont speak arabic, know the various groups involved in the fighting and even if they did, uniforms are not worn....).

whereas the official goal is to stop the IDF from breaking Intl law, it could be easily argued that shooting rockets into israel is breaking intl law and the IDF has the right to attempt to stop it..and they are interfering-that protects terrorists.

They have chosen to activily interfer with IDF operations.....thats playing a very dangerous game, and that in turn protects those who are shooting at us in israel. If they were passive, and were not a threat, it would be a different story......

however if your really interested in knowing how it looks from our side:

while we agree with Mr. Baroud that to date the Palestinian leadership and resistance has failed to empower and sustain a nonviolent resistance, we must object to Mr. Baroud's argument and offer an alternative vision and outline for how nonviolence can be used effectively, though not exclusively, in resisting and overcoming occupation.

that last sentence: ..not exclusively, means they agree that its ok to shoot at me

or this: ....In actuality, nonviolence is not enough...the use of sentences: And we are certain that if these men were killed during such an action, they would be considered shaheed Allah

have violent interperations by us in the middle east.


.... on this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary." Palestinians too should use any means necessary,

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:bFzEuVlu4D0J:www.freepalestinecampaign.org/artadam.htm+%22international+solidarity+movement%22++%22any+means+necessary%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

nonviolence does not have a double meaning...it means non violence. to confuse the issue which is what the ISM is doing is going to get people killed, and already has
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. So, "(previous ISM statements)"
Where can I find these?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. got an old one....
I had this on an old file of mine.....the website is no longer there, and If i recall correctly there was a split between NJ solidarity and the others..but thats just something I remember....but the quote is pretty clear.

NJ Solidarity

We are opposed to the existence of the apartheid colonial settler state of Israel, as it is based on the racist ideology of Zionism...we stand for the total liberation of all historic Palestine.

for me, as an israeli, not much imagination is required here....

i recall a seattle ISMer said something..cant recall, but thats not the point, because the ISM is a loose organization with some leeway given to its members (they can easily have a "slip of the tongue". The point is that one one hand they are claiming non violence, on the other hand they are saying its ok for the palestenians to shoot at israelis and were going to get in the way of the IDF....

thats i believe the "jist" of the whole thing.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. Garbage.
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QueerJustice Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. Rubbish.....
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Nevertheless....
Zionism has created many problems and done much evil, all because the native people were not respected and their right to their homeland is ignored. Such lack of respect towards another group of people is no different from racism.

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. harming people because of their culture is like racism
How can one have the desire to take the land away from the natives and not be a racist? Just because one wants to believe that harming people because of their cultural group is not racism, it's still racism. Not being racist means sharing the land with the natives, such as welcoming the return of the natives.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Already seen that quote
And the actual story is that two individuals from the NJ ISM group posted that statement without any consultation with the ISM. Those individuals were immediately thrown out of ISM.

From that you conclude that the ISM as an organisation has a policy to hide and protect terrorists?

On a similar (and as absurd) basis I could conclude that the Gush Katif settlement organisation is in favor of killing IDF soldiers and resisting til the death the disengagement, on the basis of the fact that some members of Gush Katif have made statements to this effect (even spray-painting "We will die for this land - signed: Gush Katif" on Israeli government buildings).

Would that be reasonable? Or, I could conclude that the Israeli government is inspired by Hitler, on the basis that the Deputy Defense Minister of Israel sits in a coalition with the facist Moledet, and refers to "genetic defects" in Arabs. Would that be reasonable?

If not, why not?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. its more than a few comments....
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 04:09 PM by pelsar
but things appear to be changing according to "I dont want a name". The conclusion that the ISM (past?) protects terrorists is more based on what was their basis and written in their websites.

that though they will be non violent they dont neccessary believe in non violence as a method for the palestenians.

now, I believe that non violence is a philosophy, a belief in a system to change things. For a nonviolent protest to work, everyone has to believe its nonviolent. For the ISM to use non violence to as a method to disrupt so that others who actual will use violence....is in essence being an active part of the violence. In fact its worse, it totally destroys the nonvoilent movement, for only if israelis believe the nonviolent movement is just that, only then will it affect us, if its a ruse, which is what the ISM suggests, it totally destroys its effect.

In effect, using non violence as a cover so others can use violence, not only is absurd but totally corrupts any real non violent movement-a really dumb idea.

perhaps a scenario, one that immediatly pops up: a palestenian is shooting at me, and ISM then goes between me and the palestenian. That is how I interpet (and most israelis) their "we're non violent but we believe in the violence against israelis". That is protecting terrorists.

Now this may all be out of date, and i really hope so, as perhap those of the ISM realized that playing that kind of game is rather dangerous for them.

and btw, I wouldnt expect anybody to tell a palestenian gunman to stop shooting....it would be wisest to get out of the way as fast as possible.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Fair enough
If you conclusion was based on something more than what was written by a couple of jerks on an obsure website, lets see it.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. When have ISM stood anywhere near gunmen?
When did this happen? Did I miss this? If this actually happened,why doesn't the Israeli authorities arrest every ISM activist,& charge them with serious criminal offences,rather than just violating their tourist visa?
I think you are Making Shit Up;if any ISM members were actually to "protect terrorists",they would forfeit any claims of credibility,& would face criminal charges in Israel,and their country of origin.
The reason ISM piss off so many defenders of Israel,is beacause they expose what your army of occupation really gets upto.

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. englander.....
Edited on Tue Jan-18-05 09:01 AM by pelsar
you read to fast...or I didnt write properly. (my examples above is how I define/imagine the past ISM philosophy of "we'll be non violent but we agree to a violent solution."

Though this appearst to be already by out of date..according to a real ISM member, and one whos has been there ( idontwantaname).

but I'll explain anyways....since its appears the ISM has understood that fuzzying the line between non violence and violent protest is not a good thing.

the philosophy of "we wont use guns, but we believe in their use against israelis and we will interfere with the IDF operations is protecting those shooting at me. IDF operations are designed in principle to protect me. Its that simple. Its not a good idea, if one values ones life, to try to confuse the line between non violence and violence infront of soldiers. Soldiers dont react well to confusion, since their bottom line is defending their lives and those of their unit. And if you confuse them (me) and we're not quite sure, we'll err on the side of our own defense and lives and the expense of the other.

it seems however that the ISM now has understood that and is taking a non violent observation status and letting the israelis and palestenians do the work...which is better since both understand the rules a lot better than those from the outside.

the ISM doesnt expose anything more than our own TV/mothers at roadblocks/soldiers/palestenians during interviews do.....they piss us off because they are playing with fire with a "holier than thou attitude" thinking they're better than both us and the palestenians as if they cant get hurt.... (but again i understand that has changed as reality has set in)
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idontwantaname Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. a footnote...
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 06:58 PM by idontwantaname
what i post in here about ISM is from my personal experiences and ideas. opinions expressed are not ISM rule and should be taken as an individuals veiwpoint and thats all.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. idonwantaname...
but given that you appear to be the only one with that experience your views and opinions have a "lot of weight" (i would say a lot more than those who have never been but think they know) ....at least from those of us who also had experiences within the westbank and gaza
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idontwantaname Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. nonviolence.
yes.

ISM folks volunteer for many different reasons... some have more liberal views than others.

the basic network of the group is while serving as an ISM volunteer you are not permitted to do or say anything which would escalate the situation. if people have a problem with this and go against it they terminate their membership there and then.

ISM is very strict about this with their members... because their members are internationals and will inevitably return to the countries they came from... it is not their conflict.

however if a palestinian decides to pick up a rock or gun it is their choice and should not be challenged by any international... in the end ISM is not here to "save" palestinians from anyone...

its a lot of "western pride and privilege" which needs to be kept in check.
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idontwantaname Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. ISM
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 01:52 PM by idontwantaname
the ISM org. is relatively new and within itself acknowledges this.

since many of its volunteers do not speak arabic much of the group relies on the contact local palestinians to delegate responsibility and oversee who the internationals deal with.

after the death of past ISM volunteer members it has since worked to reform its policy of non-violent direct action... to non-violent observation.

in many recent cases ISM volunteers have been arrested and deported for merely observing the situation (non-violent protests against "the wall") and not actively participation in direct actions.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. and this is good
I didnt know that....but I am glad to hear about it

thanks for the info.

the deportations have caused quite a bit of controversy, since its only the ISMs that are deported....but perhaps Im a bit niave sometimes i would like to think that if they observe and let the non violent palestenians and israelis go to work.....things will change.
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Only the ISM?
Actually, many different people are deported for many different reasons. Some are deported because the holy land is their home and others are deported because they are against deportations.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. king.....
guess i have to be more precise....they are deported for belonging to an organization. a couple of years ago a different group was deported for fear they were going to commit mass sucide.

the rest are individuals
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King Mongo Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Speaking out against Israel
I agree that she was a brave woman. Many people don't have the courage to speak out against Israel. She's very brave for understanding the danger that she was getting herself into.
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QueerJustice Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. `` Damn despicable as are any apologetics of this``
What truly is despicable is the ISM and there members including Rachel Corrie...
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Do you agree with the court's actions? Including the sneaky delay? (nt)
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Unfortunately
we don't have the equivalent of the US Constitution's garauntee of the right to a speedy trial. It can take quite a while to work through the system.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
34. Did you believe a rightwing Israeli judge would rule differently
from the way a Fascist pig like Scalia would have ruled in similar circumstances?

Let's face the fact that we are at war against Fascism, and that this is a global war, and that the Fascists can be Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindus, etc.
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