What was going on at Johnstown Airport on 911?

This analysis deals with a completely unknown aspect of 911:

Part I: The background of Johnstown Airport will be analysed (eg a the meeting of the Cambria County Local Emergency Planning Committee on 910 and many interesting information)

Part II: The very strange events at this airport on 911 that led to its evacuation (because of UA 93). There are many contradictions especially that the reason given for the evacuation contradicts clearly the offical flight path of UA 93.

But read for yourself and make up your mind:


http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1094

There was a small format problem. So here the second part of the investigation on Johnstown. Everybody who believes this is interesting should definteley read the first part of the investigation where especially the meeting of the Cambria County Local Emergency Planning Committee on 910 and other important issues surrounding Johnstown Airport are analyzed.

What’s happening at John P. Murtha Johnstown-Cambria County Airport on 911?

In the days after 911 the following story is widely reported:

"Dennis Fritz, the air traffic manager, got a call from controllers in Cleveland warning the Johnstown airport -- which has no radar of its own – that a large aircraft was 20 miles south and had suddenly turned on a heading for Johnstown.
"It was an aircraft doing some unusual maneuvers at a low level, which is unusual for an aircraft that size," Fritz said last night.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

“”Supervisor Dennis Fritz and controller Thomas Hull picked up binoculars -- the tower has no radar -- and scanned the horizon to the south. The day was clear and, from the highest point in the area, they could spot radio towers in neighboring Somerset County. A large plane would have stood out.
"We didn't see a thing," Fritz said.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp

“(This was) leading Fritz to believe that the plane was flying somewhere in the 2,800 foot high ridges in that part of the Allegheny front.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

"Dennis Fritz, director of the municipal airport in Johnstown, Pa., said the FAA called him several times as the plane approached his city , and even warned him to evacuate the tower for fear the jet was going to plow into it.
(Washington Post, 9/13/01)

"When they (Cleveland) called back a minute later, it was 15 miles away. They suggested we evacuate the tower and the airport because they didn't know what was going to happen here. The aircraft was not communicating."
(Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/13/01)

“’ On the first call from Cleveland, they said a 757 was heading in our direction at about 6,000 feet and descending ,’ Fritz said. "They were repeatedly trying to raise the pilot on the radio, but there was no answer. " Within minutes, Fritz said, he began to move people from the tower but hesitated to abandon it completely because he felt the incoming plane might be in distress and need to make an emergency landing.”
(Bergen Record, 9/14/01)

“Ninety seconds later (after first call), Cleveland called back. The plane was now 15 miles south and heading directly for the Johnstown tower.
"We suggest you evacuate," they told him.
Fritz ordered trainees and custodial staff out of the 85-foot tower. He and Hull stayed at their posts and scanned the south with binoculars. It occurred to Fritz that the plane must be flying below the level of the mountain ridges around them.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp

“"Dennis Fritz, chief air traffic controller at the Johnstown airport, said he ordered the evacuation of nonessential employees at the tower and the airport around 10 a.m. Tuesday after being alerted to ‘a large aircraft 20 miles to the south.’”
(Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/13/01)

“Forty-five seconds after telling Fritz to evacuate the Johnstown tower, Cleveland Air Traffic Control phoned again.
"They said to disregard. The aircraft had turned to the south and they lost radar contact with him.’”
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp

“Then, somewhere within the air zone, about 15 miles south of Johnstown, the plane turned again toward the south."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

The plane crashed 16 miles south of Johnstown Airport.
(Bergen Record, 9/14/01)

This story of the third and last evacuation happening on the flight path of UA 93 (Cleveland and Pittsburgh, too) bears many questions.

All accounts that give a precise direction of the suspicious airplane heading towards Johnstown Airport agree that it was from the south.
(AP, 9/12/01 l)
(Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/13/01 b)
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp


It might be rather surprising that Johnstown Airport was ordered to evacuate as it certainly is not a target one could imagine the hijackers to be interested. So while the FAA ordered Pittsburgh control towers at 9:49 to evacuate http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_city/20010923city0923p5.asp no skyscraper in Pittsburgh was evacuated. But if the FAA wants to run no risk on 911 and evacuate all airports that could be touched then again it’s rather surprising that the advice was only given while UA 93 was only 20 miles away. Assuming a speed of 500 mph (it crashed with the official speed of 580 mph) this means that Johnstown had only 2 ½ minutes to evacuate. Which certainly is not sufficient especially as Dennis Fritz doesn’t decide immediately. So if the FAA wanted to run no risk when then wait so long?
But leaving this point aside and having a closer look at what happened at Johnstown Airport on 911 there are several very bizarre points that stand out:


Not only is the final crash site of UA 93 16 miles south of Johnstown Airport (so when first noticed as heading for Johnstown UA 93 is almost exactly at the very location it will later crash (being apparently lower than 2800 feet it is surprising that no eyewitness remarked this plane then)) but this direction is in contradiction to the official flight path of UA 93. If one has a look at the map and follows the official flight path the plane would be west or maximum southwest of Johnstown Airport. So, who is right?


There is one account that contradicts all the quoted statements that UA 93 was heading from the south to Johnstown Airport:
"John Hugya, an administrative assistant to U.S. Rep John Murtha, said he has been told that the plane initially flew over Cambria County Airport in Johnstown. There was no communication from the plane, and the plane was not responding to Cleveland Center, which is how they knew it was one of the hijacked planes."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010911somerset0911p4.asp
But this seems even less believable than the above mentioned accounts. If UA 93 flew over Cambria County Airport in Johnstown then certainly Dennis Fritz would have remarked it?!


The next problem is the moment when Johnstown is signalled that there is no more danger:
“Then, somewhere within the air zone, about 15 miles south of Johnstown, the plane turned again toward the south."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

In clear this means that UA 93 managed 5 miles in the very time Johnstown had been alerted and finally been evacuated and the big relieve came.
Assuming that UA 93 was heading with 500mph (it crashed with official speed of 580 mph) than the whole period when Johnstown was in danger lasts 36 seconds!
This is rather surprising and difficult to believe.


As UA 93 “turned again towards the south” “about 15 miles south of Johnstown” it is basically exactly at the very place (within a mile) that it will crash. This again is quite unlikely. Nobody reported a 180° turn of UA 93 in the very last minute of its flight. And no eyewitness has recalled this.


One last question is also why Johnstown Airport neither sees UA 93 nor the white jet that seven eyewitnesses remarked at the crash site. Cleveland stated that UA93 was flying at an altitude of 6000 feet and descending. This is also reported by Cleveland controller Stacey Taylor who was in charge of UA 93 (NBC, 9/11/02). So if it was a clear day, a big aircraft would stand out and it was obviously flying above 2800 feet why then wasn’t it seen?

But why does Johnstown Airport have no radar forcing the staff to use binoculars?
On June 15, 1999 the following information is made about Johnstown Airport on the site of the Airport Traffic Control Service:
“Control tower services have been taken over by the Department of Defense. ATC services are provided by Federal Employees of the US Air Force.”
http://web.archive.org/web/20020201000201/www.airnav.com/airport/JST/ATC
and we find the following information:
“ATCT OWNED BY CAMBRIA CO/OPERATED BY BARTON ATC INC.”
http://web.archive.org/web/20020204130525/www.airnav.com/airport/KJST
So, how come they hadn’t no radar on 911?


Why does nothing of this story that explains the evacuation of Johnstown Airport makes any sense? Or in other words: It makes as little sense as the explanation surrounding the evacuation of Cleveland tower and Cleveland Airport.


This article is based on the central finding of 911 researcher Zeitmaschine and the research of Time 8+ and Zaphod 36.

Battalion.

Johnstown Airport also became the new home of the Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron 775 Detachment A on March 3rd, 2001.


http://www.mfr.usmc.mil/4thmaw/mag49/hmla775deta.

The year 2001 brought major change upon the unit. The HMLA detachment shifted parent commands from HMLA 773 to HMLA 775. The detachment's parent location became Camp Pendleton, CA, and their call sign became "Coyote." On 3 March 2001, the detachment relocated to Johnstown, PA. The move to a civilian facility created many infrastructure challenges that the detachment overcame through hard work and strong leadership. The Coyotes conducted their Annual Training at the new drill site in order to maximize unit training and to become acclimated to their new surroundings.


This unit just happens to have several AH-1W Super Cobras.

http://www.house.gov/murtha/news/nw001203.htm

The new facility will be home to the Marine Wing Support Squadron 474, Detachment A, and the Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron (HMLA) 775, Detachment A. The $14 million facility includes a hangar, reserve training center and a vehicle-maintenance facility, which were funded through Murtha's initiative.

The HMLA has seven AH-1W Supercobra and four UH-1N Huey helicopters. The HMLA has 95 full-time personnel and 50 reservists, and the MWSS has 10 full-time personnel and 80 reservists -- a total of 105 full-time personnel 130 reservists. Murtha noted that the total staffing of all the Reserve and National Guard units now located at or moving to locations around the airport is 275 full-time positions.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/ah-1w.htm

The AH-1W Super Cobra is a day/night marginal weather Marine Corps attack helicopter that provides enroute escort for assault helicopters and their embarked forces. It is the only western attack helicopter with a proven air-to-air and anti-radar missile capability. The primary mission of the AH-1W aircraft is as an armed tactical helicopter capable of helo close air support, low altitude and high speed flight, target search and acquisition, reconnaissance by fire, multiple weapons fire support, troop helicopter support, and point target attack of threatening armor.

stickdog for the info and good to have you back here at DU!
:toast:

All accounts explain the fact that Johnstown Airport couldn't see UA 93 by the assumption that it was already below 6000 feet.

Now check out what Cleveland controller Stacey Taylor has to say about it:

Ms. TAYLOR: Yeah. And then the transponder came back on. We got two hits off the transponder. That's something we've always wanted to know. Why did the transponder come back on? Because the hijackers had shut it off so that they couldn't be tracked, even though we were still tracking them. Now we were getting an altitude readout on the airplane. I can't remember the precise numbers, but it was around 6400 feet, and then around 5900 or 5800 feet. And we're thinking, 'Oh, you know, maybe something's happened, maybe this isn't what we think it is.'
(NBC, 9/11/02)

Doesn't sound very much below 6000 feet, does it?
The transponder coming back happened around 10:00. So at that very moment UA 93 should have been close to Johnstown.

So, another reason to doubt the whole Johnstown explanation.

Here is a precise timing of UA 93 being considered a danger to Johnstown Airport:

"At some point, it turned slightly. Cleveland air traffic controllers called Dennis Fritz, the air traffic manager at the Johnstown-Cambria County Airport, 56 miles east of Pittsburgh, at 10:04 a.m. They said the plane was 15 miles south of him, bearing down on the airport."
(AP, 9/20/01)


10:04 really? I though it had crashed already at that point?

Johnstown Tower is a VFR tower. They don't offer approach control services (I know, I used to work planes in and out of Johnstown every day).

The military has an ATC training facility located there, but a private contract tower actually works the airplanes (total staffing of 7 or 8 controllers...not 7 or 8 at a time, 7 or 8 TOTAL).

to many of the important events (well, at least the ATC-related important events) surrounding 9/11 right here on DU.
And it's a good thing, too. Disinfo agents won't stand a chance here. We've got our own "insider" (so to speak) who is always happy to be "helpful" in making sure we get the truth - as he knows it.

Personally, I don't care if you believe me or not.

Your petty sniping aside, do you disagree with the factual statements regarding ATC in any of my posts?

Would be helpful if Mercutio ATC gave an extensive summary of what, in his experience, went wrong, or right, on the day of 9/11. Start a thread, see what happens.

n/t

(well, you and Abe, anyway)

Just search my posts...I've given the same summary quite a few times.

MercutioATC, thanks for your willingness to answer!
But I still would kindly ask you for a clarification:

I read on the page of the 258th Air Traffic Control Squadron who are at Johnstown Airport:

Master Sgt. Thomas L. Lattimer, 258th air traffic controller.
"The new radar set was a complete ground-controlled approach facility. It used an air traffic control center to identify and locate approaching aircraft and instructed pilots in guiding their aircraft to a safe landing during reduced visibility."
http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/air_national/258.htm

This seems to indicate that they do offer approach control service.
So, why in a case of national emergency couldn't the military have helped Johnstown Airport (especially in a situation when the decision was to be taken to evacuate)?

And can you please explain me if you don't mind why Cleveland was evacuated on 911? As shown in my Delta timeline I have problems to find any reason for doing so. But maybe I've overlooked something.


But talking about Johnstown, MercutioATC, do yo agree with the other points I've raised. This story is a clear contradiction against the official flight path moreover if all the info given in this accounts is correct UA 93 would have had a very very bizare flight path.

1) I have no idea what Lattimer is trying to say in that quote. Cleveland Center would be the "air traffic control center" he speaks of, but WE provide approach control services to Johnstown. They don't do it locally (either through Johnstown Tower or the 258th).

2) I don't know what you mean by "why in a case of national emergency couldn't the military have helped Johnstown Airport". What assistance could they have provided? Cleveland Center was tracking the plane. What else could have been done?

3) I know the terminology can get confusing. You'll have to specify whether you're asking why Cleveland APPROACH or Cleveland CENTER was evacuated.

4) UAL 93's flight path WAS bizarre. I've read your thoughts and I have a few clarifications off the top of my head:

a) When UAL93 turned toward Johnstown and continued to descend, the Tower was warned. When it turned away from Johnstown, the Tower was told to disregard. I don't see where this could be considered unusual.

b) If UAL93 was headed directly toward the Tower, it presented a very small profile. At a 20-mile range, it's not unusual that they wouldn't see it.

c) When you speak of UAL93 flying OVER Johnstown Airport, that was when it was still at 35,000 feet, westbound. It later turned south and east and descended. I can understand your misinterpretation of thatr reference. Obviously at 35,000 feet, Johnstown Tower wouldn't have seen the plane.

d) The area south of Johnstown is very rural...it's almost all mountains and woods. The lask of eyewitnesses doesn't surprise me.

I hope that helps some. I'll explain further if you'd like.

Thanks for your clarification and for the moment I've no questions about the radar (if this changes I'll come back to you).

To your further answers:

a.) The problem is that acording to the official flight path (also in CR) UA 93 was never south of Johnstown and heading towards Johnstown. If it ever flew towards Johnstown it came from west, southwest. And after it turned it didn't fly south but southeast (also according to official flight path). If it would fly south from Johnstown then it would have NEVER flown in the direction of Washington DC. Moreover the accounts imply that it north suddently towards Johnstown than 5 miles later (that is approxiamtely 36 seconds later) being basically over Shanksville within one two miles it made a 180° turn and crashed in the next seconds.

Either this is simply not true or the official flight path is not true.

And still I'd wonder why the FAA advices to evacuate although they didn't consider UA 93 as a hijack?

And why didn't they advice to evacuate when the plane was less than 20 miles away (I believe it's impossible to evacuate the building within less than 2 1/2 minutes)?

a) Shanksville is south of Johnstown. Our radar updates every 12 seconds. In the last couple of minutes of its flight, UAL93 was headed east and turned northeastbound before heading east again. This happened south of Johnstown. For at least a couple of updates (24-36 seconds) UAL93 did appear on the radar as being in a turn to the north...towards Johnstown tower.

I've seen about 6 versions of the "official flight path". The ones that show a turn to the northeast shortly before the crash are the accurate ones.

The FAA DID consider UAL93 a hijacked aircraft. In fact, they also had DAL1989 tagged as a possible hijack.

As you pointed out, UAL93 was south of Johnstown headed east/southeast until a couple of minutes before it crashed. There was no reason to warn Johnstown Tower that a hijacked plane was headed toward them when it was headed in a different direction. When it appeared that it was turning north, they were notified.

Or retired? Hope you aren't posting here when you should be watching other screens...

What you suggest would be impossible. There's no internet access on the control floor.

Yes, Shanksville is exactly south of Johnstown. So, that means that at the very moment UA 93 was considered being a threat for Johnstown. But there is not a single flight path (and certainly not the CR) that shows UA 93 being south of Johnstown and heading north. Especially as it would imply that after heading five miles north (and now being within a mile of its actual crash site) and then doing a 180° and basically crashing exactly at this point. All flight paths and all eye witnesses do contradict this!

"The ones that show a turn to the northeast shortly before the crash are the accurate ones."

Then you contradict the CR which clearly shows southeast as the last movements of UA 93 (this is also confirmed by many eyewitnesses)

If a plane is descending rapidly and not talking to us and there's an ATC facility in the vacinity, we'll warn that facility. I didn't mean to imply that UAL93 turned directly toward Johnstown tower. With a 12-second update, we only get "snapshots" of the actual movement of the plane. If a target is moving southeast for 4 or 5 hits and then turns east-southeast, we see the next hit left of the previous course of the flight (in a left turn). We have no way of knowing how far that left turn will continue until 12 seconds later, so we issue alerts based on the info we have at the time. Had the plane turned right, we would have still probably told Johnstown Tower about it, but evacuation would probably not have been discussed.

We're always going to err on the side of caution.

Err on the side of caution? And not evacuate?

And you didn't answer the questions.

I don't understand your next question. We did evacuate (mostly).

What questions didn't I answer?

of a plane, and nothing shows up at all in the intervening seconds? Or something different happens?

We get depictions of targets which then "freeze" for 12 seconds. They then update (new position, speed, altitude) 12 seconds later. In the intervening period, we just have the frozen picture of where they WERE.

That's the radar mosaic system used in Centers. It doesn't have a "sweep" as terminal radar does because it's operating off multiple radar sites, not a single site.

This makes it difficult to see how fast a plane is turning and how far it's turning, especially in a tight turn. We usually "time" turns at low altitude when we need to be precise because we know what the standard rate for a turn is. If the pilot's not cooperating, it becomes problematic.

Say on approach to a landing, or after take off? About how long to turn 45 degrees?

This 12 second 'freeze' idea seems a very risky and unsophisticated way for ATC to keep track of passenger jets. Surely you left something out?

If a plane is below 10,000 feet, it has to fly below 250 knots. That's roughly 4 nautical miles per minute or just a little less than a mile every 12-second update. Above 10,000 feet, a commercial jet would be roughly double that.

A standard rate turn is 3 degrees/second. A 45-degree turn would take 15 seconds IF it was done by the book...most aren't. Keep in mind that the computer's only giving us a snapshot every 12 seconds.

Nope, I didn't leave anything out. That's why one of the things the screening process to be an ATC looks for is the ability to keep a constantly moving picture in your head and predict the scenario a few minutes into the future. As I've said before, the system relies a great deal on compliance from the pilots. When they do something we don't expect, our normal tools are of limited use.

I've no problem imagining that UA 93 was heading in the direction of Johnstown and to accept your explanation with the 12 seconds but the clear stated fact that at this very moment when Johnstown was alerted UA 93 is supposed to have been 20 miles south of Johnstown is important as it is in clear contradiction to the official flight path. UA 93 never was there!
(You wrote that the flighpath that has a turn to the northeast at the end is the correct one. Is this a typo or do you contradict the CR in this aspect?)

Moreover the next contradiction in the accounts about Johnstown:
Being 15 miles south of the airport the plane turned. It is now within one mile its the crash site. But it flew longer to the southeast then one mile: The official flight path shows it and eyewitnesses saw the plane being 8 miles northwest of its crash point (heading south). So this again completely contradicts the explanation for the evacuation of Johnstown Airport.

Moreover all accounts agree that the alert was given when the plane was 20 miles away and was taken back when it was only 15 miles south and had turned. A Boeing needs about 36 seconds to fly 5 miles. Even adding the 12 seconds for the change of the bip on ATC's radar we come to 48 seconds. But what actually happened within theses 48 seconds? The ATC sees the change of direction of UA 93 and tells his superior. This message goes all the way up in the chain of command. Johnstown Airport is alerted. "Several phone calls" were made and then the decision taken to evacuate. Then our two chaps from Johnstown start looking outside the windows looking for the plane and then and only then the alert is taken back. All this within 48 seconds??????? (And in all other aspects on 911 the chain of command was sooo slow) It's hard to believe.

Moreover while Cleveland notified Pittsburgh and Johnstown to evacuate because of UA 93: Why was the NMCC told that Delta was the fourth hijacking? Why did Cleveland Center only tell NEADS at 10:07 that UA 93 was hijacked? (CR, 33)

All within 48 seconds??

They don't offer approach control? WTF is the relevance of that?

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/air_national/258.htm

258th Air Traffic Control Squadron

A new name and a new home both became reality in 1997. First, on May 16 the unit was redesignated the 258th Air Traffic Control Squadron to reflect the Air Force policy of assigning number series to specific unit types. Then, on September 1 the unit moved to Johnstown-Cambria County Airport where they were to assume an additional mission of full-time air traffic control, which also meant the unit would grow from a 68-member flight to a 79-member squadron.

"After moving into the main Johnstown tower, we will still use the mobile tower for tactical training," continued Thomas. "The mobile tower can be used in emergencies and we can deploy with it and set it up anywhere planes are landing or taking off, even at a dirt field."

"Our mission today is to control aircraft from the moment they initially start engines ... "

The future of airport operations at Johnstown rests with the men and women of the 258th.

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/air_national/98bien.htm#258

In September 1997, the 258th Air Traffic Control Squadron successfully transitioned from the 114th Air Traffic Control Flight in State College to the 258th Air Traffic Control Squadron in Johnstown.

The mission of the 258th is to deploy, operate and maintain air traffic control and landing systems, provide support in conjunction with operations, and augment the fixed control tower at Johnstown/Cambria County Airport.

The unit uses four primary pieces of equipment to accomplish this mission: the mobile Radar Approach Control system, consisting of a van containing two separate radar systems and a van containing operating consoles for the air traffic controllers; a mobile air traffic control tower; a portable, tripod-mounted tactical antenna; and a truck-mounted communications facility.

During this biennial period, unit members provided outstanding support in a number of ways which benefited federal, state and local interests. The most notable achievement of the 258th was the successful transition and move from State College to Johnstown. Unit air traffic controllers now operate the Johnstown/Cambria County control tower, providing air traffic control service to military aircraft, general aviation and commuter airlines. The squadron maintenance section provides routine and emergency maintenance on numerous pieces of equipment that are used to control aircraft.


http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/PAO/pr/7_3_02.htm

In 1999, a state-of-the-art, $6 million tower was built when Murtha, a former U.S. Marine, was able to convince Congress on the importance of the structure.

...

Assigned to provide air traffic control services for the Johnstown-Cambria County Airport 17 hours a day, seven days a week, unit members feel like they finally have the right tools for the job.

That's WTF that's supposed to mean.

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/air_national/98bien.htm

Unit air traffic controllers now operate the Johnstown/Cambria County control tower, providing air traffic control service to military aircraft, general aviation and commuter airlines.

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/PAO/pr/7_3_02.htm

Assigned to provide air traffic control services for the Johnstown-Cambria County Airport 17 hours a day, seven days a week, unit members feel like they finally have the right tools for the job.


Are you now actually on record of accusing both Rep. Murtha and the PA ANG of blatantly lying about the duties of the 258th Air Traffic Control Squadron? Well, these are shocking revelations indeed! When are you going to apply for whistleblower status?

The members of the 258th do get some of their Guard time working the occasional weekend at Johnstown Tower. However, the 258th as a unit (and the 258th's radar equipment) is not used to provide civilian ATC services at Johnstown Airport.

Neither statement seems particularly accurate to me, no.

So who manages air traffic for the two choppers wings at Johnstown? Without radar?

And they've had a $6 million control tower since 1999. Without any on-site radar?

And this was the only airport in the vicinity of Flight 93 that was allowed to stay open for business on 9/11, 9/12 and 9/13. But no on-site radar?

And eyewitnesses reports the dozens of fully armed choppers patrolling the Johnstown vicinity airspace on 9/11. Once again, of course, without radar. Right?



http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/air_national/258.htm

What started out in 1982 as a Tactical Air Control Flight with an authorized strength of 28 people, has evolved into a full-time airport air traffic support squadron with an authorized strength of 79.



http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Military_Affairs/guardian/nov01web.pdf

Undoubtedly, new equipment and facilities are the buzzwords for the 258th. A new $6 million air traffic control tower was completed in 1999; a $1 million mobile tower, mounted on a humvee, was delivered last year; and this winter, a $6 million unit training facility will open.

Located at the John Murtha Johnstown-Cambria County Airport, the unit is also filling an important niche for the expanding airport. “While all this new equipment is important for the unit’s role in supporting the total force, the most important asset to the community is providing air traffic control services to the airport,” said Hull.



http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&db_id=cp105&r_n=hr591.105&sel=TOC_267306&

1999 procurement

The Army requested $30,107,000 for common ground equipment. The Committee recommends $31,307,000, an increase of $1,200,000 only to equip the 258th Air Traffic Control Squadron Air Traffic Control Tower with a communications package and associated electronic equipment necessary to satisfy FAA requirements and compatibility.

As of January of this year (2004) I'm working in a different area. I want to speak to Johnstown Tower and some Area 5 people directly so I can answer your questions completely.

Did you manage to talk to Johnstown Tower?

He's on vacation in Europe, but is getting back next week. I'll post as soon as I talk to him.

something whenever his ass gets nailed to the wall?

Sorry, I guessed I missed a post a year ago...


If I read back correctly, the question was who provided ATC service for the helicopters based at Johnstown. Answer: The military. Occasionally, we'd work a Guard helicopter, but most of the time they were on their own.

Happy?

http://billstclair.com/911timeline/2001/pittsburghchannel091501.html

Hoping to dispel rumors that United Airlines Flight 93 might have been shot down by military aircraft, the FBI Saturday said that two other planes were in the area but had nothing to do with the hijacked flight crashing in western Pennsylvania.

The FBI said that a civilian business jet flying to Johnstown was within 20 miles of the low-flying airliner, but at an altitude of 37,000 feet. That plane was asked to descend to 5,000 feet -- an unusual maneuver -- to help locate the crash site for responding emergency crews.

...

On Friday, WTAE-TV reported that the mystery pilot in the white plane may have been an area farmer. James K. Will, a Berlin, Pa., farmer who pilots a white Cessna with red stripes (pictured at right) and who has an airstrip near his farm, told Team 4 reporter Paul Van Osdol that he circled the scene about 45 minutes after the crash.

Will said he had just returned from Altoona and, when he'd heard about the crash, flew to the site to take photos of the wreckage. Pennsylvania State Police said that his plane may have been the one that many saw. Will's flight was intercepted by a state police helicopter and was escorted to the Johnstown-area airport. His plane was searched and he was released.



***********************************************************************




http://www.911truth.org/readingroom/whole_document.php?article_id=145

At United Airline's crisis center, a solitary blip glows red on a big screen. It transfixes Hank Krakowski, the airline's flight operations director. Although the airline still has hundreds of flights in the air, officials at the airline's headquarters outside Chicago choose to illuminate only the path of Flight 93 on the status board. "Are they gonna have to shoot it down?" he wonders.

A 737 captain who flies vintage fighter planes at air shows, Krakowski, 47, isn't the only one wondering. Military jets already are closing on the Boeing 767 as it barrels toward Washington. Then, at 10:06 a.m., the blip stops moving over Pennsylvania.

"Latitude and longitude," Krakowski snaps. The coordinates put the jet at Johnstown, Pa., about 120 miles from the nation's capital. Krakowski picks up the phone and is patched through to the Johnstown airport. No answer. No answer? How can there not be an answer?

A staffer finds the cell phone number for the airport manager. Krakowski tries again. "We might have a plane down in your area there," he says calmly. "See anything unusual?"




***********************************************************************



http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912crashnat2p2.asp

Dennis Fritz, the air traffic manager, got a call from controllers in Cleveland warning the Johnstown airport -- which has no radar of its own (just an air traffic control squadron and 28 military aircraft, but, ahem, NO RADAR) -- that a large aircraft was 20 miles south and had suddenly turned on a heading for Johnstown. "It was an aircraft doing some unusual maneuvers at a low level, which is unusual for an aircraft that size," Fritz said last night. "It happened so quickly." (Um, since you didn't have any radar and you never saw it, how the fuck do you know?)

...

Joseph McKelvey, executive director of the Johnstown-area airport, said he didn't know whether it would be an operations headquarters or serve as a morgue. But as he spoke, one of the few planes in the skies over America, a United Airlines 727 arrived carrying what McKelvey said was equipment for the recovery, and a half dozen rental trucks pulled into the airport to carry the equipment to the crash scene.

"This is the one airport that can handle about any aircraft in the world," McKelvey said. (Using NO RADAR, of course!) Normally, the Johnstown airport handles five commercial passenger flights a day.

Last night police and National Guard sealed off the airport to regular traffic, at one point shutting down state Route 219 a four-lane highway that is only 500 yards from airport property. It was later reopened, but access roads to the airport remained sealed.



***********************************************************************




Even the freepers are suspicious:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/524827/posts?q=1&&page=51

An employee of a very lofty quasi-federal entity told me last Friday that he thought Cheney was running everything. There is a possibility that an airliner carrying Bush landed at Johnstown, Pennsylvania airport, and that quasi-federal employee said that was very likely. At between 4:00-4:30PM on the day of the attacks, an airliner appeared in front of the Comfort Inn on a mountain to the east of Johnstown, and about 2 miles from the airport. The liner was descending to land, and leaving a black trail behind it indicative of dumping fuel. It was a few hundred feet off the ground and level as it disappeared behind the ridge separating us from the airport. Police had closed off the airport earlier that afternoon, and the quasi-federal employee reported about helicopter gunships circling the airport. Johnstown is helicopter distance from Washington, DC.

Bush runs domestic policy, as indicated by his appearing before an elementary school class, posing as National School Superintendent on the morning of the attack, as the soccermoms expect that from Presidents since Clinton. Cheney runs foreign policy from the White House basement, and anyone who thinks Cheney isn't in contact with BUSH THE ELDER is politically naive.

Something these boys thought they had a handle on was running away from them. That is the gist I am getting from the other threads posted in the past 24 hours. The FBI was searching for the camel jockeys for three weeks before the attacks, and Cheney was nowhere to be found. They were trying to resolve this on the QT.

A picture of the little, tiny, helpless and radarless (that, despite this, basically served as the Flight 93 command post) John Murtha Johnstown-Cambria County Airport:




http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=950#a945shutdown

10:20 a.m.

United Airlines headquarters receives confirmation from the airport manager in Johnstown, Pennsylvania that Flight 93 has crashed.




*****************************************************************



http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/2001cov/Flight_93_Brought_Down___


About 10 minutes later, Full's phone rang. It was Kurt Sopp, the
airport authority's security manager. Full said Sopp told him that he
had been informed by Pittsburgh International Airport's air traffic
control tower "that there was a plane within 10 miles in the
Pittsburgh airspace that they had no contact with whatsoever, and they
had reason to believe it was possibly a hijacked aircraft, and they
were taking appropriate action by moving personnel out of the control
tower."

That was all Full learned of the plane. He had no idea of its
altitude, heading, speed or apparent destination. "It meant to me that
it was pretty damn close to the airport, especially when they told me
the control tower was beginning to move personnel out of the tower,"
Full said. "I didn't ask for any of those particulars. I didn't even
look at the clock for a time."

Full got off the phone with Sopp and alerted Pittsburgh officials.
Full alerted City Communications Chief John Rowntree. But even as
Rowntree was learning about the mysterious plane, it continued on its
southeast path, away from Allegheny County. As the plane neared Somerset County, air traffic controllers in
Cleveland alerted their counterparts at John P. Murtha
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport that a plane was about 12 miles away,
"heading directly at the airport at about 6,000 feet," said Joe
McKelvey, the airport's executive director.

"The Johnstown tower chief told me that under the circumstances, he
was going to evacuate the tower," McKelvey said. "Before either one of
us could get off the phone, the aircraft had already passed us by."

As airports go, it is on the small side and it is served by an on-site VFR tower (they don't even have automated flight plan processing).

Cleveland Center provides radar service for Johnstown Airport.

on 9/11? Please tell us exactly how that worked, Merc.

They've got 2 wings of armed helicopters and an entire ATC squadron. But you want us to believe that they take their orders from you!

They left this airport open for traffic on 9/11, 9/12 and 9/13 while they shut down every other airport in the vicinity. But you want us to believe it doesn't have the capacity to serve as any sort of command center!

As I said, I wasn't there on 9/11. I'll get specific info for you from people who were.

:eyes:

in Atlantic City. Again, I've explained this before.

Just out of curiosity, exactly what FAA tech project was scheduled for 9/11?

Europe's been doing it for years. The U.S. version had been being developed for some time. I was there for about 6 months (every second or third week) to assist in computer modeling. The week of 9/11/01 was just one of the weeks I was there.

RVSM goes into effect in the U.S., Canada and Mexico at 4:00 EST on Jan 20, 2005.

http://www.co.cambria.pa.us/cambria/cwp/view.asp?A=1213&Q=499509&tx=1

LOCAL EMERGENCY PLANNING COMMITTEE (LEPC)

The 3rd quarter meeting of the Cambria County Local Emergency Planning Committee was conducted on September 10th in the air traffic control tower at the John Murtha Johnstown Cambria County Airport in Richland Township. Sergeant James Koshute of the 258 Air Traffic Control Squadron from the Pennsylvania Air National Guard served as the host. In addition to Sergeant Koshute, other LEPC members in attendance were Michael Hoover, Ron Springer, Ralph Saylor, Bernie McCreadie, June Kania, Mike Huss, Vikki King, Georgia Lehman and Leah Spangler.

This whole 9/11 business has too many convenient ties to that whole part of the country. And, what an amazing coincidence that we just "happen" to have a former cop (i.e., just your average, typical Kerry supporter) and current alleged ATC employee from that very same area who is gracious enough to give us the benefit of the Government's take on all the questions which the Gov't doesn't want to have to answer.

Coincidence Theory: "The Next Best Thing To A Real Osama Tape".

I've been perfectly clear. Believe it or don't...it really doesn't matter to me.

It's very courageous of you, especially considering how much risk you are taking with your indefatigably rabid public affirmations of the officially sanctioned party line du jour.

At least people know where my views are coming from and my professional background, though.

your (supposedly) relatively superior levels of personal disclosure, as if defending the dominant paradigm were somehow valorously equivalent to attacking it.

It's like a bunch of cops congratulating themselves on not being afraid to show their badges at an FBI checkpoint.

(at least that's why I do it)

If somebody knows my professional background, especially in matters that pertain to the subject being discussed, it might help them reach a conclusion on the relative merit of my posts.

You've been all over the place. From total 9/11 Official Conspiracy
defender, to LHIOP, to sort of MIHOP (but quickly HOPPED away from that), and you've also made vague comments about having "questions" about "some" aspects of 9/11, and I think many of us would be Mercurious
to hear what your current position is.

You've long abandoned your stated posture of only commenting on ATC matters, so where exactly are you "coming from" right now. Please, no dancing, no evasions, no trying to change the subjec or answering a different question. Just a straightforward narrative of your position(s).

Thank you.

I've always stated that I don't subscribe to any theory...I have my own conclusions. I've also always stated that I believe 9/11 was allowed to happen through incompetence (or, perhaps, turning a blind eye to some of the possibilities), not intent. At most, I've been "LIH" (Let It Happen...notice the omission of "On Purpose"). I don't know anybody else here who thinks I've ever gotten even close to MIHOP.

I've never promised to comment on only ATC matters. I've made it clear that aviation in general, and ATC specifically, is my area of expertise. I didn't say I wouldn't also offer my own conclusions. However, I've always made it clear in what field I had actual qualifications.


I believe this makes it easier for people to determine where I'm coming from, especially when contrasted with a poster who has a lot of opinions but no stated profession or qualifications.

Your position is no different than the one given by the Gov't:

Negligence, Incompetence, Snafus.

Same lame excuses they always give instead of the truth.

Have fun with that.

or by posting links to engineering schools, or even coming up with a very impressive resume with a military slant, albeit via links to websites. All are to be judged solely on the content of their posts.

It's not meant to gain me credibility...it's just a handle.

"it's just a handle."

It's a combination of a part I played (Mercutio) and my occupation (ATC). It's not designed to elicit anything particular.

Ready for a surprise:
All quoted accounts clearly talk of 20 miles SOUTH of Johnstown, right?
I guess even the Commissioners realized there was a problem.
So here the "solution":

"Then the Command Center informed headquarters that controllers had lost track of United 93 over Pittsburgh area" (CR, 30)

Strange, all accounts clearly state (using quotes) that Cleveland Center advised Johnstown about the concrete position of UA 93 (and the moment when it turned away again) because Johnstown had no radar. Hm...


"Within seconds, the Command Center received a visual report from another aircraft" (CR, 30)

Again, this is new. Nowhere mentioned before. Does this aircraft have a name as well??

and informed headquarters that the aircraft was 20 miles NORTHWEST of Johnstown". (CR, 30)

Ups, now it's northwest. Why not south anymore? But it's still a clear contradiction to the official flight path of the CR. It should have been southwest if the flight path is correct.
Great thing to see that the Commissioners don't even bother to contradict themselves.

The Commission changes the story completely.
I'm ready to move this into the thread "The Commission lied" any objections??

so much confusion

Although many accounts only describe the fact that the twoer was evacuated the following paragraph hints at the high probability that the whole airport was evacuated!

"Not long before the crash, the plane approached the Johnstown/Cambria County Airport, descending from 6,000 feet, airport director Joe McKelvey said. Airport controllers had no verbal contact with the pilots, McKelvey said.
McKelvey said officials at the Cleveland En Route Air Traffic Control Center in Oberlin, Ohio, ordered Johnstown controllers to abandon the tower and close the airport."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_12940.html

There is one account that hints at the very likely possibility that not only the tower but also the whole airport was closed in Johnstown:

"Not long before the crash, the plane approached the Johnstown/Cambria County Airport, descending from 6,000 feet, airport director Joe McKelvey said. Airport controllers had no verbal contact with the pilots, McKelvey said.

McKelvey said officials at the Cleveland En Route Air Traffic Control Center in Oberlin, Ohio, ordered Johnstown controllers to abandon the tower and close the airport."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_12940.html

Tower Chief Dennis Fritz said he began searching the horizon for any signs of the 757 around 9:20 a.m. when the Cleveland Control Center radioed that Flight 93 was headed in their direction and was apparently out of control. Fritz says Cleveland control was urging him to evacuate the tower.
http://billstclair.com/911timeline/2001/bergenrecord091401.html

This was a report of Bergen Report, but the original link is missing.

The most interesting thing for me is the time 9:20, when Fritz began searching the horizon for flight 93.
Further at this time Cleveland radioed that Flight 93 headed to their direction and was out of control. How can this happen when at the official timeline Flight 93 wasn`t hijacked at 9:20 ???
Further at this time Cleveland was urging Fritz to evacuate the tower. John Doe`s last post says that the whole airport was closed. So I assume that the whole airport was evacuated about at 9:20.
What was the reason for evacuating the whole airport about at 9:20?
Was the reason to pull away potential eyewitness when a hijacked plane(s) landed there?
Was Johnstown airport center or destination of the military drills on 09/11?

Is the time 9:20 a.m. the reason for the cancelled link of Bergen Record?

9/11 Commission Revised Time Line for UA 93 from Commission Report, 2004

8:42 AM UA 93 takeoff from Newark Air Port
9:27 Someone in UA 93 cockpit heard by FAA to say “there is a bomb on board”
9:28 screaming, scuffling, foreign language spoken over radio
9:30 transponder off FAA aware that there was a hijacking of UA93
9:32 FAA hears over radio “we have a bomb on board”
9:34 FAA HQ is aware of the hijacking



more on the timeline of Fl 93 at www.flcv.com/offcompl.html
and Paul Thompson's time line.

"Tower Chief Dennis Fritz said he began searching the horizon for any signs of the 757 around 9:20 a.m. when the Cleveland Control Center radioed that Flight 93 was headed in their direction and was apparently out of control. Fritz says Cleveland control was urging him to evacuate the tower"

There should be a followup to question Fritz and the Cleveland FAA about what was known at 9:20?, what message Fritz got from Cleveland by 9:20 AM? what was known that made it reasonable to suggest evacuating an airport that there should be no reason for targeting?
This deserves further followup.

The link to the Part I by Ewing 2001 doesn't work unfortunately.

Here is the beginning of the article with a very delicate information on Johnstown:

On September 10th, also 10 members of the "Cambria County Local Emergency Planning Committee" (CCLEPC), met in the air traffic control tower at the John Murtha Johnstown Cambria County Airport in Richland Township, which would face only a couple of hours later, a strong incident: 9/11 and the alleged hijack of Flight 93 into this area.

Sergeant James Koshute, Michael Hoover, Ron Springer, Ralph Saylor, Bernie McCreadie, June Kania, Mike Huss, Vikki King, Georgia Lehman and Leah Spangler met at the airport on 9/10.

Did they or their contacts have prior knowledge about 9/11:, or was one of them even involved in an "Inside Job"?

Let's take a closer look into the background of the participants...:

http://911search.bravehost.com/Johnstown.html

because of Murtha. Let's have a look at HIS airport.

Let's have look at this quite interesting article:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/johnston/story/2462535p-8866889c.html

The article explains the expanding CIA flight network. The name of the company is Aero Contractor.

Excellent find! (I also saw this article in the Times but failed to connect Johnstown until now.)

So, Johnstown IS a CIA hub.

For how long? Was this already the case on 9/11? The article does not make that clear, speaking of an expansion in Aero contract ops for the CIA since 9/11. However, Aero has been around since 1979. (The article is also a limited hangout, since it talks about the Agency owning a few dozen planes, when of course the Agency has always been one of the largest owners of commercial planes worldwide throughout its history.)

!!! All this prompts a natural question for MercutioATC:

"Given your admission that you were employed at Johnstown, can you categorically deny that you were ever involved in CIA operations out of that airport"?

Just curious.

I am a resident of Somerset County and my curiousity about what may or may not have happened on Sept 11th led me to this thread. For the record, as an FYI, I wanted to let you know that when I went to the link to the article about Johnston Airport in Johnston County, I noticed that it is in fact located in North Carolina and is not the same John Murtha-Johnstown Cambria County Airport which was referenced before.

Okay, I was completely wrong in my spontaneous response to the CIA at Johnstown article.

The article is indeed about a Johnstown Cty. in North Carolina, not PA.

Thus I must also retract my question to MercutioATC (unless he feels like responding anyway).

Apologies...

I haven't.

I work at Cleveland Center, which controls the airspace above and around Johnstown.

Thanks for clarification !

that was made from Johnstown before 09/11 in this area?
It is known that Johnstown airport basically was a military airport.
Do you know a restricted military area in circuit of about 4 miles of Shanksville`s crash site?

And welcome to the dungeon of DU!

Do you happen to know people of Johnstown who remember Flight 93 overflying the city?

There are conflicting reports if it did or not. Thanks in advance!

and it was suggested to evacuate; but
this is extremely strange.
Johnston is only 3 minutes from the crash site where the crash happened at 10:06; but at 9:20 UA93 was in Ohio hundreds of miles from Johnston and there were many air ports between UA93 and Johnston; and why would anyone think Johnstown would be a target anyway??

So what was the real purpose of the evacuation at the Johnston airport??

:kick:

It seems as if two planes at the very same time approach the airport from two different directions.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x76107