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paulthompson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 08:01 PM Original message |
The WTC molten steel question |
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hack89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 08:15 PM Response to Original message |
1. The only thing that will melt steel weeks after the collapse.. |
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paulthompson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 08:30 PM Response to Reply #1 |
2. yes |
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hack89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 09:28 PM Response to Reply #2 |
5. Here is a good discussion ... look at the temperatures they measured. |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:01 AM Response to Reply #5 |
14. Pray tell, what is the melting point of steel? (nt) |
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philb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 10:21 PM Response to Reply #1 |
7. Neither paper fires nor gasoline fires melt steel, so ... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 10:23 PM Response to Reply #7 |
8. Deleted message |
Rich Hunt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 10:12 AM Response to Reply #8 |
18. my impression has always been... |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 11:26 AM Response to Reply #18 |
19. Thank you for saying the above |
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petgoat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 03:53 PM Response to Reply #19 |
29. "in no way shape or form were they thinking... " |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:02 PM Response to Reply #29 |
31. Yes. (n/t) |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:13 PM Response to Reply #18 |
23. Yes, metal BENDS into pools. |
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paulthompson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:36 PM Response to Reply #18 |
25. nice rant, except... |
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vincent_vega_lives (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-12-05 06:52 PM Response to Reply #25 |
119. Perfect example |
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philb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:02 PM Response to Reply #18 |
58. some of the witnesses quoted aren't lay people |
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Snivi Yllom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:33 PM Response to Reply #1 |
32. best analogy is a coal fire |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:57 PM Response to Reply #32 |
35. And, pray tell, what temperature is this coal file? |
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Snivi Yllom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 05:53 PM Response to Reply #35 |
40. 1700 centigrade |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:00 PM Response to Reply #40 |
42. "Deep beneath the ground" |
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Snivi Yllom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:06 PM Response to Reply #42 |
43. not sure of your point |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:18 PM Response to Reply #43 |
45. My point is that your point is full of it. |
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Snivi Yllom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 12:19 PM Response to Reply #45 |
97. here's a documented report of fire producing glowing metal |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 05:49 PM Response to Reply #97 |
101. GLOWING is not MOLTEN. |
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philb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:08 PM Response to Reply #32 |
59. would it melt steel? don't think so |
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spooked911 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 08:36 PM Response to Original message |
3. I don't think there is an official explanation and you're right-- |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 08:37 PM Response to Original message |
4. A few comments |
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dazinith (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 10:46 PM Response to Reply #4 |
10. how does fire burn without oxygen? |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 05:49 AM Response to Reply #10 |
16. Why would oxy not be able to get to the fires? |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:10 PM Response to Reply #16 |
22. Less oxygen = cooler fire. |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:03 AM Response to Reply #4 |
15. What combustibles burn hot enough to melt steel? |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 07:27 AM Response to Reply #15 |
17. Ok Stickdog, let put it on the table |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:08 PM Response to Reply #17 |
21. Yes. let's put it on the table. |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:35 PM Response to Reply #21 |
24. I'll repeat myself in hopes you will actually provide an answer |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:46 PM Response to Reply #24 |
27. I agree that you keep dodging my original question. |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:01 PM Response to Reply #27 |
30. You fail to grasp the difference between the |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:55 PM Response to Reply #30 |
34. How many hundreds of years did humanity "fail to grasp" this difference? |
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hack89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 05:28 PM Response to Reply #34 |
36. Since no one has an answer, I guess it is a mystery.. |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 05:55 PM Response to Reply #36 |
41. I can think of nothing to explain it occurring naturally. |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 05:32 PM Response to Reply #34 |
37. Humanity does not have the problem, |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 05:49 PM Response to Reply #37 |
39. If the process of getting a fire to sustain temperatures well above 2000 F |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:07 PM Response to Reply #39 |
44. Maybe this will help you |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:19 PM Response to Reply #44 |
46. So there's a volcanic intrusion under the WTC towers? |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:25 PM Response to Reply #46 |
47. No, and there isn't one at this coal seam either. (nice try) |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:34 PM Response to Reply #47 |
48. OK, so there was a vein of coal burning under the WTC tower? |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:53 PM Response to Reply #48 |
50. Back for more? |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:58 PM Response to Reply #50 |
52. How do you make an underground fire hot enough to melt steel? |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 07:27 PM Response to Reply #52 |
55. I suggest you research yourself. |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:32 PM Response to Reply #55 |
63. The REALITY is that an underground fire burning hot enough to |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:49 PM Response to Reply #63 |
65. In case you have not noticed, I am hardly concerned |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 09:03 PM Response to Reply #65 |
68. Really? What combustibles can sustain temperatures over 2000 F? |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 09:06 PM Response to Reply #68 |
69. If you answer this perhaps you will get it. |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 09:37 PM Response to Reply #69 |
71. Short answer: Under almost ANY conceivable conditions, coal fires |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 09:56 PM Response to Reply #71 |
72. So how did the coal fire I referenced get hot enough to |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 10:02 PM Response to Reply #72 |
73. It didn't. As I said, the temperature was not measured directly, but |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 10:14 PM Response to Reply #73 |
74. The article I posted said 1700 C. It said nothing about |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 10:50 PM Response to Reply #74 |
75. The article you posted doesn't know its head from its ass. |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 05:40 AM Response to Reply #75 |
76. Again you are avoiding the point. |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 02:33 PM Response to Reply #76 |
78. 1000 C ain't 1300 C. |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 03:55 PM Response to Reply #78 |
84. I have already explained it a number of times, yet you cannot |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 04:09 PM Response to Reply #84 |
87. OK, "thermodynamics" boy. What's the maximum directly measured |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 07:14 PM Response to Reply #87 |
89. Actually it's quite a complicated question |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 10:08 PM Response to Reply #89 |
91. That's NOT the temperature of a fire, but of a flame. |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 10:32 PM Response to Reply #91 |
94. I've explained why three times already. Sorry if you don't understand (n/t |
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ROH (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 06:10 PM Response to Reply #94 |
102. Well, no, you have not explained even once. (n/t) |
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AZCat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 07:50 PM Response to Reply #71 |
90. I know I'm hopping in the middle of this discussion... |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 10:14 PM Response to Reply #90 |
92. Yes, a cyclone fired wet boiler can do the trick. |
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Snivi Yllom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 03:08 PM Response to Reply #55 |
79. i dont think there was any melted steel at all |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 03:11 PM Response to Reply #79 |
81. Yes, it was probably pools of molten wood. (nt) |
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Christophera (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 02:15 AM Response to Reply #81 |
95. Newcasts & Remodel After The Bombing, Special Fire Proof Coating |
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rman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 01:20 PM Response to Reply #79 |
98. People are amazingly creative in coming up with assumptions |
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Christophera (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 11:33 PM Response to Reply #98 |
105. Assumptions Like: If You Tell Me Jet Fuel Melts Steel, I Assume It's True. |
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rman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Dec-10-05 07:19 AM Response to Reply #105 |
107. or in this case: "there was no molten steel" |
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AlienSpaceBat (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-11-05 08:01 AM Response to Reply #55 |
110. Biggest underground fire in transportation history |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-11-05 08:47 AM Response to Reply #110 |
111. Actually it raises a far more interesting question |
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Make7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-11-05 10:14 AM Response to Reply #110 |
112. ...melts metal. |
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AlienSpaceBat (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-11-05 11:10 AM Response to Reply #112 |
113. Its the rolling stock I was referring to ... |
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Make7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-11-05 12:09 PM Response to Reply #113 |
114. There was plenty of aluminum at the WTC site. |
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AlienSpaceBat (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-11-05 12:14 PM Response to Reply #114 |
115. Fair point ..! |
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Make7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-11-05 12:53 PM Response to Reply #115 |
116. I usually see it claimed as steel, however... |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:39 PM Response to Reply #47 |
49. More |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 06:54 PM Response to Reply #49 |
51. above 1000C? |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 07:00 PM Response to Reply #51 |
53. It's the internal temperature of the glowing blackbody that is a coal |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 07:30 PM Response to Reply #53 |
57. I dunno, I sort of read it as the actual temp of the coal inside was |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:36 PM Response to Reply #57 |
64. Yes, the surface temp ranged from 350 to 900 C, SUGGESTING that |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:51 PM Response to Reply #64 |
66. Why don't you explain why coal |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 09:24 PM Response to Reply #66 |
70. A coal fire is a good approximation of a blackbody. A blackbody |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 05:34 PM Response to Reply #30 |
38. I need to edit this |
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petgoat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 03:15 PM Response to Reply #38 |
82. The coal point is moot unless you're going to maintain that |
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rumpel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 10:01 PM Response to Original message |
6. Have you seen my post on the Tritium readings by UC Berkeley? |
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hack89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 10:43 PM Response to Reply #6 |
9. The Berkley report says that... |
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philb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-06-05 10:47 PM Response to Reply #9 |
11. was there a test for other fission products? |
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rumpel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 01:08 AM Response to Reply #11 |
13. I found an ongoing database of air contaminants. It is a little bothersome |
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rumpel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 12:52 AM Response to Original message |
12. Here is an interesting pdf analysis of the temperature inside the building |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 12:28 PM Response to Reply #12 |
20. I found an interesting comment in the report |
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paulthompson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:37 PM Response to Original message |
26. Important question no one has addressed yet |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 02:48 PM Response to Reply #26 |
28. I haven't seen a single one. |
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petgoat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 04:41 PM Response to Original message |
33. A related issue is the FEMA Appendix C Report |
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Bouvet_Island (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 09:56 PM Response to Reply #33 |
104. I noticed this, |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 07:22 PM Response to Original message |
54. For Paul Thompson |
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dailykoff (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 07:28 PM Response to Original message |
56. A couple of points about thermite: |
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philb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:24 PM Response to Reply #56 |
60. they sprayed a foam product on the pile but still it burned a while |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:25 PM Response to Reply #56 |
61. Mind if I ask a question |
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philb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 08:32 PM Response to Reply #61 |
62. I'm not aware of any evidence that rules out your hypothesis of paper or |
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LARED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-07-05 09:00 PM Response to Reply #62 |
67. I'm not suggesting any sort of cap |
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JackRiddler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 10:41 AM Response to Original message |
77. Come on people, red herring |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 03:10 PM Response to Reply #77 |
80. Yes, it's a comparative red herring. |
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JackRiddler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 03:39 PM Response to Reply #80 |
83. What's typical of underground fires? |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 04:05 PM Response to Reply #83 |
86. 2400 F is NOT typical of ANY fire caused by combustibles. |
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JackRiddler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 06:03 PM Response to Reply #86 |
88. yes but |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 10:16 PM Response to Reply #88 |
93. What makes the WTC basement different from a huge firepit? |
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Make7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 07:17 AM Response to Reply #86 |
96. Nobody? |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 05:48 PM Response to Reply #96 |
100. And what is the melting point of iron, pray tell? (nt) |
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Make7 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Dec-10-05 05:19 AM Response to Reply #100 |
106. 1538 degrees Centigrade |
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philb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 06:38 AM Response to Reply #100 |
120. melting point of iron and steel are extremely different |
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stickdog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:55 AM Response to Reply #120 |
121. My point was simply that there's no evidence that the ancient |
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petgoat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-08-05 03:56 PM Response to Reply #77 |
85. Jack, I would appreciate the long-timers' thoughts on the question |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 01:35 PM Response to Reply #77 |
99. Deleted message |
hack89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Dec-10-05 09:30 AM Response to Reply #99 |
108. But how much molten steel would thermite create.. |
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Snivi Yllom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Dec-09-05 06:30 PM Response to Original message |
103. dunno if this photo is real or photoshopped |
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k-robjoe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Dec-10-05 10:52 AM Response to Original message |
109. Update |
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Clarkent (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-12-05 12:34 AM Response to Original message |
117. Photo |
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rumpel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-12-05 03:17 AM Response to Reply #117 |
118. The second photo reminds me of the building remnant in Hiroshima. |
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MrSammo1 (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 05:10 AM Response to Reply #118 |
123. Bingo! |
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Bouvet_Island (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:41 PM Response to Reply #117 |
122. I'd like to welcome you to the debate as well, |
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paulthompson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 10:20 PM Response to Reply #117 |
124. Photo |
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