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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 09:52 PM
Original message
Re: The BBV Mess


This was posted by Catherine Scolvin aka Straw_Citizen with my support and input on the Randi Rhodes Show section of the Air America Place forum yesterday afternoon. I hope it can clear up some of the confusion:

QUOTE (bigtree @ Dec 15 2004, 10:34 PM)
I was listening to Malloy last night and a couple of calls came in from Bev's staff (Katherine and Danielle?)- anyway - they were apologizing for Bev's actions and were adamant that the money was being spent on FOI requests....

Then the bbv.org site has the unceremonial firing of Andy - just after his sister died too!

I don't know what to believe anymore...

I missed the first hour or so of Randi today - did she talk about it at all?


The short version first.

* I hope this lends a clearer picture and perspective.
* I hope Bev gets help and moves on.
* I hope Andy continues working on vote fraud issues without interference from the debris of unwarranted and malicious accusations.
* I applaud Air America for being responsible, maintaining open dialogue and allowing two-way communication.
* There is more of the same of what is posted below, but this is too long already.

This is Catherine. Daniel and I are neither staff nor privy to facts, but wanted BBV supporters to know that despite problems we believe BBV's investigations were real and donations were at least partially spent on FOIA requests.

We both worked with other BBV volunteers on a county election official contact list used to send FOIA requests. We believe those requests were sent because 1) BBV claimed to receive responses to them, and 2) if FOIA requests were not sent to and received by election officials that would be newsworthy and easy to confirm.

I don't recall saying anything that could be construed as direct support other than it has been a pleasure working with Andy and I look forward to working with him in the future wherever he chooses, since he is now unencumbered.

I reiterate my belief that money has been spent on FOIA requests. If asked though, I would also have stated my own concern about the absence of a monetary goal, as I did in an email to the President of the BBV Board of Directors. The response was that BBV should not signal to the opposition where BBV was at with a goal. At least I received a response.

Additionally, the valuable work constructed by collaborators in the writing of Black Box Voting: Ballot-Tampering in the 21st Century, should not be diminished because of one person on a bizarre self-destruct path bent on bringing others down with her. It doesn't speak well of Bev Harris in face of the credits originally stated in this book, that since then I have witnessed chronic public attacks by Bev directed toward David Allen and other collaborators. However, above the fray David Allen of Plan Nine Publishing has kept the book in its original state (Bev has edited it for download from her site) and deserves kudos for maintaining an even keel while weathering the storm many of us have come to know as Bev Harris.

Something else that begs clarity is that though Andy may have believed he would not be working for BBV, he was not formally or officially notified that he was fired until Bev did so publicly. Again, I do not have all the facts, but have sufficient email communications from a member of the Board of Directors for BBV to soundly draw that conclusion.

After piecing facts from my own experience together with what I have seen Bev write online recently, it is my firm belief that Bev conflated past and recent outside attacks toward her with internal management conflicts, then vented combined stressors and frustrations by publicly placing all weight on one person simply because it could be done. Some people are better equipped than others to cope with being in a hot seat. It has become obvious to many that Bev cannot take the heat without lashing out at those within reach. There is also the fact that responsibility stays at the top no matter who is used as a scapegoat.

Transparent management would clear up questions about embezzlement and expenditures. That is up to the BBV Board of Directors, unless Bev is trying to run that too. It is well known among many that delegation by Bev is a weak point for BBV. From personal experience, Bev exemplifies the analogy of the monkey with its hand in the jar refusing to relinquish grasp of one thing in order to obtain another.

As a former BBV volunteer I understand the frustration and even anger of other volunteers and members whose efforts to help and donate were heavily solicited, then ignored. For a few days I was designated by Bev as Volunteer Coordinator only to find myself cut off at the pass with all efforts to do what I was asked to. That began with the county contact list, since Bev mistakenly thought every state could be done quickly. I heard Bev clearly as I waited on the phone for confirmation that it was ok to use other sources or not. It was not ok with Bev, but since Bev's single source was inadequate we did the best we could with other sources anyway. (Btw, anyone who needs a county / town election official list for emailing, calling or faxing, may download this Election Investigation Library which will remain a work in progress)

Organization became noticeably worse just prior to the General Election as membership tripled within a week. Complaints of ‘no response’ to email and numerous pleas to help littered BBV forums. After a few days of Bev saying she would respond (on the site, though it's gone now) and not seeing it happen, I created a few admin accounts for a few trusted members who could help cover responses so I could sort skills sets. This was necessary because moderator features did not work. I also emailed Bev every step of the way so she could remain informed, and at her own pace.

Note: I hoard email and have saved each sent to Bev, as well as collected screenshots of problems on the site to support those emails. In fact, after Keith Olbermann was made out to be the bad guy by Bev, I emailed him examples of problems noted by various members on the BBV site to support his assessment. Though it felt appropriate to keep my thoughts from public view even then, I still thought the matter was important enough to corroborate problems I witnessed myself.

Then Democratic Underground members began forming a more functional clean up crew than existed at BBV. Password issues at BBV prevented many from logging in and this continued despite emails to Bev and posts throughout the site. As the DU clean up crew picked up momentum, coincidentally it became clear that BBV urgently needed more Florida attorneys. As I searched online for a news article regarding BBV in Florida, Andy briefly passed that fact on to me. I perceived it as a directive from Bev rather than a note-to-self for Andy because I had become accustomed to acting on ideas and suggestions. (Otherwise, not even the county contact list would have been completed using Bev's chosen source.)

Because BBV email wasn't being responded to; because Bev tried to be the sole email response person; and because I knew she was unavailable and they didn't have reliable internet access while out-of-town; I led a couple other volunteers in discussing and creating an email address for responses to an urgent request for FL attorneys to be sent to, then one of us posted the request on DU. Bev eventually saw this and publicly posted on DU that it was not authorized, though I had emailed her about it to be on the same page. Bev made a fool of us, then demanded via email and a post on DU that we call her immediately. I did so and was sorry I bothered.

After posting research for BBV off and on for two years and working 18-20 hours a day at election time, I was finally allowed the opportunity 3 times that night during phone calls to be yelled at non-stop for matters unrelated to any BBV volunteer (that I'm aware of) except for a minute dwelling on the newly created unauthorized email address. (the reason why was apparently unimportant) Specifically, Bev repeatedly referred to DU as stealing BBV members and that was 'just not going to happen'. During that conversation, my pointing out that at least hundreds (based on the explosion of membership) of people were not being responded to and they were rightfully displeased about being misled by her claims to be leading, was somehow stretched by Bev to be the work of 'infiltrators' (she termed 'the usual suspects') at BBV and DU.

I then directed Bev to a BBV forum where members were posting complaints of "no response" to emails and password issues about the same time Bev noticed (finally) that I had created a few admin accounts to help with the increasing membership volume. Bev immediately removed admin status from our accounts which left BBV with no organizing ability through volunteers. (there have been plenty of volunteers with a wide range of skills including local office help) I should mention here that security on the site is so lax that two days later I was able to login and reset my own password (an admin-only function) on my old user name because cookies retained my admin status after Bev removed it. I notified Bev of this immediately via email.

I was also taken aback throughout those 3 phone calls, which averaged 15-20 minutes each, by Bev's focus on blaming others for every single thing that didn't go as she thought it should. I recall feeling less like a real person listening to Bev on the phone, than a garbage dump with an ear.

Why didn't I speak up sooner? Partially self-denial to be honest, and because of the initial statements in this post. I had also been volunteering in 'self-propelled' mode from day one. I was unsure how to proceed. I could not speak for BBV. Neither could I assume my own experience was exactly the same as others, despite appearances. I trusted Bev to be a real leader because she put herself in that role. I wanted to continue to help as best I could in every aspect because vote fraud is such a vitally important issue. I respect the work that culminated in DUer's, others', David's and Bev's book. There may not be a good reason buried in all of that, but combined they caused me to feel paralyzed by the fact that if I was wrong about what I perceived that I would have started something rolling in the worst possible way.

Finally, I offer my most sincere apology to all BBV members who thought I could help organize. My error in judgment affected many in an untimely manner. I realize now, that is an understatement for some who would have redirected their efforts elsewhere as I did. However, I would have remained silent if I had not seen with my own eyes, the malicious behavior Bev Harris exhibited toward a peer well known to support BBV 100%. As a result of Bev's behavior toward me directly, I began cross volunteering and have learned a valuable lesson about supporting a person versus a cause, especially when that cause is supported by other very diligent groups. I hope BBV supporters will each be able to separate a work from the person, and continue efforts to expose vote fraud.

--
Just to throw my own two cents in, I think it's fairly clear that Bev Harris is a John Wayne type, so obsessed with her own cause (which in her mind is conflated with herself) that she is willing to abuse anyone she sees as standing in the way..that includes anyone who exists around her in times of stress because they threaten her individuality, and even if they don't, abuse can sharpen one's disconnection from other people, and thus their identity. I know this is all pretty obvious but I think it's essential to put that at the forefront at this time..just remember that all of the INFORMATION on BBV you can still go on, and that the work Bev is doing continues to be extremely important.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow. What a mess.
I wonder what the history books will make of all this?
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Rockerdem Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. If something like this can be so hard to grip properly . . .
. . . imagine what a monstrosity Dept Homeland Insecurity is?? Wonder what decade their email system will first function?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. wow, kick n/t
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Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Christ. n/t
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. whoa.
thanks for posting. welcome to DU :hi: wish it was under happier circs.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. Really sad for all involved...
...and for the rest of us too because BBV's work is so vital. Wish it were possible to send emotional stability, wisdom, and calm as easily as money. Theiy're vital too.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Lacks management and interpersonal communication skills
Some people can't manage or lead. Better off doing something small scale on their own.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. We can't always choose our advocates
For a while I'm sure a flawed activist was better than none at all. But it was sad when she started to denegrate other fraud stories coming out, like the Madsen story.

I'm sure she started with the best of intentions. But it sounds like it got too big for her, and she might have delegation issues. Some people have trouble letting go because they're afraid something important won't get done right unless THEY do it. I've been there as a team leader. I absolutely sucked as a leader. At least 10 years ago I did, anyway.

I've also seen organizations not want to give up something that belongs to them, even if they are inactive themselves -- having to wrest control from club officials and the like to revitalize an organization.

Sounds alittle like she got a touch of "Nixonitis" too.

Man, is there any way to shake her out of this and explain y'all were just trying to help? It probably won't hit her until she's well away from the whole mess.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. imho the Madsen story deserved to be denegrated
If by Nixonitis you mean too self-obsessed, I think so. Incidentally, my assessment of Nixon's overbearing personality is actually almost the same as mine of Bev's--wow :); guess we're really on the same page.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Raising a glass in your honor!
I applaud and salute your commitment!
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propagandafreegal Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. It is a mess. How is she going to accomplish ANYTHING significant? This
is very disappointing to me.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. I heard she was going to kill Santa Claus next!
Edited on Fri Dec-17-04 10:59 PM by Skip Intro
oh, how could we ever have been so gullible????

(mysteriously edited again)


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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well....
i guess that's the ball game unless some one can show me different.
BBV was my last slim hope that something would come out of the last election, if you want to call it that.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. How many FOIA's were sent out?
And how much money was raised? I'm highly skeptical that too much money could be spent on a bunch of FOIA's.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. $50+, usually at least $99
it can be a huge cost--there's a link to a section of the BBV forum on breakfornews.com regarding fund allocations; please read up before you make allegations like that; my assessment of Bev is that she wouldn't embezzle because it would ruin the justification for nastiness she makes to herself
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'm not saying that she's stealing money, but I . . .
Edited on Sat Dec-18-04 12:18 AM by Finding Rawls
have a hard time believing all of that money went directly to FOIA's. She mentions legal costs and the costs of funding the FOIA's but I would like to know how many FOIA's were sent out. FOIA's aren't expansive documents. They should be fairly simple. Some times, especially for this kind of FOIA request, fees for searching and reproduction of documents can be waived. If the knowledge gained from the documents would improve the public's knowledge of governmental operations, regulations state that there should be no charge.

I'm not trying to bad mouth her, it's a great cause, but FOIA's shoudln't require that much money.

edit: $50 isn't that much per FOIA, but that means that there were a ridiculous number of FOIA's sent out.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Sorry for being defensive--but look at the current environment
Sorry about that. I can personally attest that there was indeed a 'ridiculous' number of FOIAs, but the upshot of that is that we have a very comprehensive database. As for the waiving, I would just like to state for readers of the forum that all kinds of obsructionary tactics can both eliminate those exemptions and increase costs in and of themselves. You probably read about LePore's pricing :)--in any case, the FOIA collection probably wasn't handled with the maximum financial efficiency, but if it had been I think it probably would not have been handled with the maximum temporal efficiency--remember that was when BBV was still a well-oiled machine that we sent out the gigantic election-night request :)--I can personally attest that I sent out hundreds of pre-election FOIA requests as well.

This is not by way of trying to keep people working on BBV, however. It is to defend the integrity of the work that has so far been done, the money so far collected, and, most importantly, the information available. It is my impression that Bev has been an asshole, but not a thief or a fraud. Thieves and frauds do well not to be assholes, at least not so publicly.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I'm also sorry
Shouldn't have been so confrontational. I've just finished sending out a bunch of FOIA appeals (a number of which appealed never receiving any response at all) so I know the process is difficult to navigate. If you're talking about FOIA's numbering in the hundreds then I could see the need for a lot of money because I'm betting almost all of them are going to need appeals of some sort.

Thanks for putting in the effort. America owes you thanks.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I applaud you for your spelling-bloggers and forum people usually suck!
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. Uncashed checks means incompetent management--
--not fraud. BBV grew too big too fast around election time, and Bev was just plain not competent to deal with it.
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straw_citizen Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. There are others working on BBV issues, thankfully!
I am sure there are others, but outside of Illinois I am proactively supporting:

National Voting Rights Institute

Alliance for Democracy

Common Cause

Free Press

Cooperative Research

www.CASEOhio.org

Break For News

Air America

www.blackboxvoting.COM

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com

Those 'carrying the torch' responsibly need continued help with raising the awareness of our neighbors and communities, who still need to be educated on facts and what is at stake. I am constantly reminding people that voting is the one right that controls all other rights. If legitimate voting is lost, so is America as a republic and we will be stuck with a fascist oligarchy...
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. More places
www.rasgroup.com/rasforum
www.votecobb.com
www.verifiedvoting.org
www.ustogether.org
DU :)
contacting people in government
grassroots stuff
league of pissed off voters
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. More stuff
rawganique.com is also very very good because you can get hemp paper there, and sustainable paper products are essential for the swamping of local areas with messages :)

livingtreepaper.com is also good

beware recycled paper--it's good but it still feeds the system*

*to some degree--i placed this as a footnote because I enjoy the absolute pronouncements which reinforce my sense of self-righteousness :)
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. WOW! Whaddaya know--a concrete use for those websites!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1446192

Barbara Boxer has a petition going, and they have bookmarks you can print out. Don't lose sight of the little things fighting the good fight :)
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
21. Also if anyone could publicly support Andy
If anyone out there could publicly support Andy..I just found out about the Lionel show, don't know if you can call in..that would be great. It would serve a twofold purpose. Firstly, of course, it would clear Andy and help him get a job. Secondly, however, it might help calm Bev down if she is called out on her own misconduct (or it could piss her off more)..either way, Andy deserves everybody's help if for no other reason than the fact that if he is again secure, he can put his valuable talents to work again.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Glad that you have joined us at DU
your background info rather confirms my view watching from afar (well intentioned work - but a controlling ego that capriciously lashes out and inflicts varying degrees of harm to allies which leads to self-defeating results due to diminished capacity by locking those valuable human resources out.)

To the point of Andy, he certainly deserves support. He put a lot on the line for this work, and was treated horribly.

Welcome to DU! :hi:
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks :)
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
24. I think the REAL reason that you didn't speak up sooner was
Edited on Sat Dec-18-04 12:42 PM by itzamirakul
that like so many of us, it really hurt to think that we might have been duped - taken in- found gullible, especially by having the opposition find out that someone we trusted so much could possibly be "fcuking us in the ass without grease." We so much WANTED to believe her assertions that fraud had taken place and that she had the undeniable facts.

A lot of people, myself included, did not dare to ask questions when Bev's posts stopped coming in so regularly. I really didn't care if she had raised enough money to take a little for herself - after all, as you say, the work she is doing is so important. But this fear of responding to people like Randi makes one more and more suspicious of just plain out and out scam and embezzelment.

The bottom line is - "Live and learn."
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Actually, I neglected to post this because I was left out of the loop on
this particular issue--I am 15 years old and it was thought better I be protected. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice some difficulties when I as well as others are constantly complaining about not receiving instructions or being able to contact Bev, but that should be also a justification for the not-quite-urgency of the post (until recent developments)--everybody understood the fallout and I was under the impression that the only reason I was still working under the auspices of BBV was that I was working with other leadership--in fact it turns out I was working with a non-BBV-affiliated project under Catherine's guidance.
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Kamqute, I sincerely apologize for
my pure choice of language in the previous post. Never, in a million years, would I use such raw language with a young person. Your original post is certainly mature and intelligent enough to make one believe that you were an adult, but that is no excuse for my poor judgement.

I am sorry.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. No sweat--just telling you why
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. Bev didn't cash checks--
--as well as not responding to volunteers, so embezzlement is out of the question. This is the disorganization of someone who flat out doesn't know what to do when her small organization starts to grow exponentially.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is an outstanding post
in it's sober analysis of the operations.

This could have been an earthshattering movement. Instead, the only things shattered were many people's reputations who dared to cross Bev.

This is not to say that some things weren't accomplished, they were. But any real reform will not come from Bev, but from other activists untainted by her.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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NC Beach Girl Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks
This is really informative (I'm just catching up on all the BBV stuff now). Thank you so much for taking the time to write it, and thanks as well for your efforts to help fix the elections process...don't let this discourage you, there are lots of organizations who would welcome your help and treat you with the respect you deserve.

I can't believe you're 15, wow! :)
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
30. And don't anybody forget the www.blackboxvoting.org FORUM
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
35. wow. kick. n/t
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
36.  I am sorry for your rude awakening
Edited on Tue Dec-21-04 06:46 PM by Malva Zebrina
It is my feeling that never should one throw oneself slavishly behind any one person, I don't care who it is, without QUESTIONING EVERYTHING.

and I am sorry to say this but EVEN ANDY who may or may not be that much of a victim.

Remember, this woman is not an investigative journalist, is not a computer geek, but is a PR consultant.

It does not work well with a group of blind cheerleaders totally committed to a cause, or a bunch of groupees who would defend anyone for the sake of being a part of some noble cause or for being a part of a group that is considered noble and hardworking for any particular cause because their peers are also doing it.

I don't care who it is.

QUESTION EVERYTHING.



Right now, my feeling is that a complete accounting of the BBV organisation needs to be done. People who contributed their hard earned money should insist that Bev Harris provide a total and complete accounting of where their money has been spent.

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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. ACK-double post--sorry
Edited on Tue Dec-21-04 09:42 PM by kamqute
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Get Real
You already know why I was stuck on that bus, and Catherine hopped right off. It's not like we were here until the Randi Rhodes blowup (though I thought I was)..Kathleen stayed on because she was part of the investigative work in Florida that is STILL GOING ON..and Bev is not a PR person, she's a committed activist who also happens to be an asshole. You do well to QUESTION EVERYTHING, but it's annoying when you IMPUGN EVERYONE.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. and have you inquired as to where your money has gone
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 05:07 AM by Malva Zebrina
yet?



Impugn everyone? written in caps? It looks as though some of that BH grandiose, hysterical , overeaching approach is pervasive amongst others and not restricted to BH.

Yes, question everything before getting sucked in to any cause/scam

We are all activists, in this case, even those who contributed their hard earned money to BBV.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Sorry about the caps..
..but my html isn't working so I couldn't do italics. I wanted to match your 'question everything' standing starkly at the bottom of the post, while keeping my own in the body of the text.

Now that that's cleared up..

..the fact is yes, we have, and it's just extremely offensive that you are going after me about it. If it turns out her disclosure is incorrect and that she's been embezzling, then rest assured she'll be slammed. But misconduct in one sector doesn't imply misconduct in unrelated sectors. She's been an asshole and she's been cut off from everyone, but there's been no issue over money. Sure, the fact that she isn't responding implies that there's a transparency issue there, but think about it this way--why would she now be urging us to collect the FOIAs if they weren't paid for? That would expose her hypothetical scam. I will reiterate that FOIA collection costs a lot, and dislodging it from belligerent officials costs <italics if I could so as not to offend you with caps>more</italics if I could so as not to offend you with caps>. So anyhoo, I am not attempting to be Bev's champion. I am simply trying to stem the tide of wild charges that have already been assaulting her. Even Andy Stephenson has told me personally that he is absolutely sure of Bev's professional integrity in this issue. It may well be time to cut ourselves off from her if not from her entire organization, but that doesn't mean she's corrupt or compromised.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Holy Crud I just saw YOUR CAPS..QUESTION EVERYTHING IS IN CAPS
Could you please try to be civil? I know that's not the prescription for every conversation but it's what really needs insertion into this conversation.

As I was rereading your beginning post, I realised it mentioned a rude awakening..you imply we were, or at least I was, asleep. As should be incredibly obvious, we were not the drones of Bev Harris.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Actually Harris was a PR person; she had a PR company.
http://www.prweb.com/firm/prf841.htm

Talion.com

COMPANY DESCRIPTION

Media contacts - personal, skilled telephone contacts to editors and producers by experienced publcists - very affordable, paid by the contact at an average of just $5 per contact. One of the largest PR firms in the USA.

CONTACT NAME Bev Harris
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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-04 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
39. Thanks for posting the inside story. Sorry you've all been treated
so badly after so much work! You sound like a very mature and grounded 15-year-old, though.
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