Recall Dean?

As some of you may remember, I supported Howard Dean for DNC Chair. I wrote my delegates, I blogged, I emailed friends, the whole nine. I believed that Dean's commitment to a 50 state strategy and an emphasis on the grassroots was exactly what the democratic party needed. But as of late he's been a loose cannon. Comments like, 'I hate Republicans' and 'we cant win in Iraq' do nothing to advance the democratic agenda. I mean, seriously think about it. They've actually had the complete opposite effect. Advancing the false stereotype that democrats are snobby elitists.


Anyway, I was wondering... Is it possible to recall the DNC chair? If so, how does the process work?

What do you guys think about a 'Draft Simon Rosenberg for DNC Chair' movement?

:popcorn:

statements that are usually taken out of context.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

And we all know both sides hate each other. So what's the impeachable offense that got your knickers in a twist?


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Link?

`I don't think you can win it' (3:40 into the video)


VIDEO:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5865710

Which is completely true. Its silly to assume terrorism will one day cease to exist.

He is fighting them over there, so he doesn't have to fight them here!

...Should we call for the pizza?

Just pointing out what the Presidnut keeps saying. Could have put the tag, but in relation to the post I responded to, it was important to note that Bush is really pushing that rhetoric as the reason we're in Iraq: fighting an ideology.

"Hooray for Howard Dean--he's just as stumble-tongued and clueless as the dumbest drunk in the fucking world!"

But thanks anyway for the insight into your thinking. Perhaps if you increase your donations to the DLC, you'll get what you want.

What the hell else does comparing what Dean pointed out to Chimpy's idiotic gaffe man, except that?

"Perhaps if you increase your donations to the DLC, you'll get what you want."
Sounds good to me. I'd like a DNC chairman who wouldn't open his yap and give the Republicans help....

Bush and ALL the neocons know the "war against terror" is unwinnable. They know it's not about terror at all.

It's about dominating the world because we're the only world superpower. It's about taking the world's most valuable resources for our own benefit while we can and because we can. The chimp sinply let the truth slip out in an unguarded moment. Read the PNAC document and get back to me - there's no war against terror, and it's not winnable in the same way that there's no war against drugs and it's also not winnable.

Bush told the truth WAY earlier than Dean did. Get over it.

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Says it all....

So how things on Pluto this time of year?

is also un-winnable...

VIET-NAM, VIET-NAM, VIET-NAM...

You CAN'T BEAT AN indigineous insurgency with the kind of Keystone Kops military the U.S. has got there.

Didn't work in Nam, the Soviets couldn't do it in Afganistan, can't do it in Iraq.

Anyone who thinks that the U.S. Army can "win" in Iraq is smoking some funny shit...

Why would you have such hatred for a man who's given so many of us some hope" Has he done something to you personally?

someone else who's not "the smartest kid on the block". Unless I completely missed something, his post about Dean was, uhmm, a little on the sarcastic side. It was in quotes.

I don't know WHAT you are talking about!

...and as soon as we see real evidence of spinal-implants we start whining about it?

Fuck that....

I stand with Dr. Dean.

speaks for me

Perhaps you should read this:

Howard Dean's Track Record on Iraq (Ignore Him at Your Peril)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5550285

he's been pretty well spot on


edit:I can't spell

:hi:

:thumbsup:

Dean speaks for me.

BTW - I can't stand DLC almost as much as I hate republicans. You can't be moderate, you can't be repug-like - you have to stand for the values of the democratic party, even at the risk of being labeled a "liberal" :wow: or a "socialist" :wtf:

A civilization only survives if her people are uplifted and protected, nourished and valued. The democratic party I know is more concerned with the needs of the people and protecting the rights of the people.

Disclaimer: All that is written above is my personal opinion and should not be mistaken for the views of the majority posting on this board or the administrators of this board.

You go, Merh!

What "democrat" wants to roll back everything FDR achieved in the new Deal? Sleazy republicans and turncoats like those in the DLC, that's who. The DLC wants to completely destroy the remnants of the new Deal - some democrats, huh?

DLC favored the destruction of Glass-Steagall, bringing us such lovely things as Citigroup and their creatons of Enron, Worldcom, etc.

DLC favored media deregulation, bringing us "Fox News" and ownership of all major media outlets by a select few multinationals.

DLC favored NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, WTO, and increased H1B visas so well educated Americans can train their replacements from exotic locals like India, who are so happy to be here they don't mind being paid a fraction of the workers they're replacing.

I could go on but you know the deal.

And I'd be laughing my ass off if the future of the fucking country wasn't at stake.

But then that was to be expected. Dean is interested in grassroots politics and they are interested in elite politics. Moreover, the DLC although claiming national centrism is so far right that their own members are suggesting the party platform needs to be pro-business (whatever happened to the working persons' party?).

I like that Dean has a spine. I'd like to see the energy that goes into this un-necessary negativity toward Dems be focused on the real enemy.

Dean's been one the few who proclaimed the emperor to be naked when many others were admiring the "new clothes", this is something the party has lacked for too long, as evidenced by the fact we have no real power in any branch of the government.

Julie

Keep on keepin on, Howard.

:shrug: Personally, I like Dean, most of the time he says what I'm thinking. I wish we had more Dems who would speak up and speak out against the evil regime.

Why don't you stop dividing the Democrats and start worrying about Bush.

Dean is doing an excellent job.

If you "recalled" him there would be a civil war in the party. That would be a nice thing to have in an election year where we expect to make major gains.

Steny Hoyer and others in the house and senate are already distancing themselves from Dean and his Iraq War gaffe.

A "civil war"??? Just because there is debate and some differing opinions? Just because the Dems aren't drinking kool-aid and marching in step? We are all individuals - there's nothing wrong with having diverse opinions about such an important subject as the Iraq War. Why so narrow minded?

:scared: :scared: :scared: Fuck them!

The DLC are packed with idiots.

They would rather lead a minority party (that parrots Republicans) than take a secondary position in a majority party.

That's what this is all about. If they can't lead the Dems, then they'll bring us down.

Thanks for helping them.

If Dean is ousted we may have a third party.

....who is deperately looking to unseat Nancy Pelosi. If you think Hoyer has the Democratic party and your best interest at heart, your nuts!

I love Dean as the DNC Chair. He speaks for grassroots democrats like me. He is strong and is not afraid to speak the truth about the culture of corruption. I WISH HE WAS PRESIDENT!

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of the DNC or the RNC. The only people who are aware of Howard Dean's alleged verbal gaffes are the 2% of the population who already pay close attention to politics and whose votes aren't going to be affected by something that Howard Dean says.

This "loose cannon" thing is total BS coming from inside-the-beltway types who are so clueless that they actually think the public pays attention to the chair of the Democratic Party. Ignore it.

Dean is doing good work as DNC chair. The 50-state-strategy is exactly what we should be doing -- it's the type of organizing that was completely ignored under the previous party chair, who didn't realize that a national party could be more than a money-laundering service.

It is BS, Dean gets a lot of support here in California, and we are glad he is chair.

Thanks for the clarity.

a spokesperson who can assist Dean. Heaven forbid the whole DNC should rally around their leader, but really, who are the loose cannons if Dean is DNC Chair? Dean may come across brashly at times, but that doesn't mean that he's wrong, or that he shouldn't say what he believes. The 50 state strategy is brilliant and Dean deserves a lot of credit. It is a lot of work, however. Maybe we need a silver tongued take no prisoners make them appreciate being told how wrong they are type of person, just as other huge endeavors have PR or marketing spokespeople. Dean is doing well, but there is no reason to make it a cult of personality thing although that seems to be the only thing to which the media gloms.

So, to conclude:

Get rid of the superficial, biased, Repuke drivel spewing corporations that control the media
Support the 50 state strategy and acknowledge that Dean has been doing a great job
Get one or more spokespeople to assist Dean.
Make Repukes defend or justify any one of 100+ things they have said that were blatant, political, inaccurate crap that have HURT both the citizens of and the country itself.
Go to a Puke board if you have to trash Hillary or just go f*ck yourself, offline.

:rant:

Skinner, that station in San Antonio had hundreds of thousands of hits, and it went all over the world. I think by the day after over 200,000, and it is still up at the site.

I think people heard it loud and clear.

know who he is. He's hardly an unknown such as prior party chairs. People don't care that Dean is the party chair. All they know is that he's a Democratic leader who makes controversial statements.

:evilgrin:

:hi:

:kick:

Poll result (150 votes)
Dean and Id support him again today. (121 votes, 81%) Vote
Dean, but I am not satisfied w/ the job he is doing. (12 votes, 8%) Vote
Other, but I think Dean is doing a good job. (3 votes, 2%) Vote
Other. Not satisfied with the job Dean is doing. (14 votes, 9%)


I think simon is good working for the party but not as chair.
Dean speaks to 81% and for me.

But you asked DU and you have to live with those results here and not elsewhere.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Not HERE...
Not FREEPERVILLE
Not even to a local Dem meeting anywhere NEAR the midwest

Maybe he could go to a Cato Institute blog!

The DLC still blows! I give you exhibits 1 through ten:

"This past weekend, the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) convened a national conversation in New York City. Politicians of all stripes gathered to rub shoulders with lobbyists and corporate contributors in the smarmy swirl that characterizes DLC meetings. The DLC generally uses these occasions to suggest ways that Democrats can benefit by becoming more like Republicans. But on this occasion, members of the DLC should have considered following the example set by Fed Chair Alan Greenspan in his recent Senate testimony: admit up front that they've been wrong. For in the current situation, the DLC is simply out of step with the needs of the country and the opinion of a growing majority of Americans. Here are just a few of the issues the DLC gets wrong:

1. At a time when the public thinks big business has too much influence in Washington, the DLC's mission is to increase the influence of business in the Democratic Party. Or as Simon Rosenberg, head of the DLC's corporate-funded political action committee, the New Democrat Network, put it, "We're trying to raise money to help them lessen their reliance on traditional interest groups in the Democratic Party." But today, two-thirds of the public says big business already has too much influence in Washington. By 50 to 37 percent, Americans say Bush favors the interests of big corporations over ordinary working people. By 49 to 37 percent, they say Democrats favor ordinary working people. That advantage would disappear if the DLC has its way."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020805/borosage20020726

do that? Dean is correct; why would anyone wish to "muzzle" him? No wonder the Republicans laugh their asses off at Dems--every time Republicans fart or shit their britches Dems want to move downwind. That's a whole load of unbelievable.

NoFederales

and they wouldn't think of recalling them...

And as to Mark Warner

http://keepaustinblue.org/blog/?p=423

“This Democrat doesn’t think we need to re-fight how we got into (the Iraq war). I think we need to focus more on how to finish it,” Warner said.

“To set an arbitrary deadline or specific date is not appropriate,” he said. “… It is incumbent on the president to set milestones for what he believes will be the conclusion.”

Unlike characters like Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden or John Kerry, Warner doesn’t have problematic Senate votes they do as unwanted baggage if and when they distance themselves from the regime’s failed policies and embrace the will of the majority of both their party and the entire country to get the hell out of Iraq. His zeal for jumping into bed with Busholini and the prowar corporatist wing of the Democratic party is revolting.

I agree, revolting. Sounds like another Joementum in the making.

As for the idea of turning our energies toward destroying our party chair, Dean, also revolting not to mention, suicidal.

I think Kos said, had Dean not entered he would have supported Rosenberg.

coming to DemocraticUnderground and shilling for Rosenberg. It was appalling.

We don't need no stinkin' DLCers heading up the DNC. Tell them they've got their own organization.

Turns out, he's a DLC type. Imagine that, the DLC working to undermine the majority voice of the party. I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!

Why don't you and "Joe-Mentum" go hang out with your GOP pals?

Dean speaks for me ebcause, well, I hate Republicans and we can't win in Iraq.

I say, give the man a mike!! He speaks for me!!

himself and the party anymore.

And I can see by reading other posts that he's not embarrassing the majority on this thread. I know the dlc doesn't like him but that's tough shit.

Dean stays but thanks for stirring up some shit.

Id hate to see the midterms results if us moderate/DLC democrats stayed home.

I know they're a bunch of big babies. wah wah.

Then maybe he can run in 08. I like that idea a whole lot better than seeing him muzzled and damned all the time.

And they really need to get over that delusion.

Whether you like it or not. Moderate/DLC democrats are a part of the party. Without us see how far you get.

about 15 years ago...

and in 2004. Yep, where would we be without the gutless wonders of the DLC undermining progressive candidates.

We might be in the White House. But the DLC is fine with who's there now.

This seems so odd to me.

It just has a bad feel to it.

'em a noogie!

:cry:

It is so very odd.

:)

If it is ok with Skinner, ok with me. It is his forum after all. It does not belong to us.

not really Democrats

own shadow! :scared: :scared: :scared:

The DLC keeps trying to cast a long pall and a shadow over Dean. Dean is bright sunshine also fatal to corporatist vampires!

:toast:

Does not mean he speaks for me. I vote a straight party line. I donate and campaign for democratic candidates. Is my voice not as important as yours?

I hear it is going to get very divisive. I guess Skinner says it is ok for you to do this, so I won't question.

Rosenberg, Warner, a very nice combination. Go for it.

nt

Warner strikes me as another me, me, me, it's all about me and whatever it takes to further the goal of making ME President is fair play.

nothing to do with this matter.

I will assume you just made it up on the spot.

Now you have our answer - NO! Doesn't mean your opinion isn't important....we just disagree. What's the problem?

you've been LOSING for 15 Goddamn Years!!

There's a saying in the Substance Recovery field, "If you keep doing the same things over and over and getting the same result it may be time to try something else."

Dean's trying something else. He's also taking some pages from the Atwater/Rove/Gingrich handbook about growing grass roots support instead of sucking up to corporations. Just might work for us as well as it has for the facists in power now.

I see one post advocating such, a few supporters, and a whole lot of dissenters.
That hardly makes "a Democratic board".

Dems need a little spine, but even more, they have to learn how to "stand by their man." I'm sorry, but too many people on the left are all too quick to jump on and off the latest bandwagon.

Dean isn't perfect? OMIGOD! He doesn't walk on water? SAY IT ISN'T SO! He doesn't always say the right thing? HE ISN'T A STEPFORD POLITICIAN? Oh dear. Replace him quick!

Look, you don't have to agree with Dean on everything 100% of the time, but he's on OUR SIDE and we should stand behind HIM. We don't have to stand behind his every utterance, but we need to stand by the man. Everyone claims to want a man who speaks his mind but then they want to shitcan him because he does exactly that. Or was it that he was supposed to speak your mind not his own? I'm not saying I agree with all of the things Howard Dean says. There isn't a human on this earth I agree with 100% of the time. Should we have our leaders only speak what is first decided by committee and then never allow them to speak impromptu? That isn't leadership.

the real test of Dean's success or failure will be the 2006 elections

like any other DNC chair - he's hired to win elections

if his verbal gaffes end up hurting us at the polls

then I can see him gone

until then -

he should keep his job.

I guess this could wait until after midterms. The only thing is, I think we have a great chance to pick up a decent amount of seats in '06. I dont want to waste it on Dean's 'truth'. Or as I would like to say, his fuckups.

John Judis of The New Republic says..

"Howard Dean's Track Record on Iraq (Ignore Him at Your Peril)
John Judis of the New Republic has assembled some of his most controversial and found that Dean is virtually always right on the money:"



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5550285

who support the war and vote against policies which help working people, how is tht different from losing to Republicans?

We have to continue to stand for him. He is in fact doing a great job and helping a lot with the grassroot and his fundraising is just fine. He is actually doing better than McAuliffe did in non election years.

So doing what you want would be falling the trap. It would be months and months of the Democrats disagreeing publicly in the media (not a couple of them who are mostly isolated or even refuse to be named, and we can be sure we would be losing the 06 elections big.

And BTW, we "cant win in Iraq" is true. How do you win? What is there to win? Who is the ennemy? What is victory?

But his verbal fuckups are not advancing the democratic party. Truth or not, when your in a leadership position you should think before you speak. Even Dean knows he was wrong, and thats why he's backtracking on his comments.

Why is it that once a Dem comes out with the truth about the war, the rest of the Dems start attacking him? He can sometimes be over the top but that stems from passion; I understand where he's coming from.

Dean speaks for many of us, who haven't had a voice in years.

There MUST be a reason, but it's hard to discern.

Nick is only carrying water for Al From.

From is carrying water for Rove.

It doesn't matter who's the middle man.

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they scare easily.

and I wouldn't scare you. :hi:

And that is my very very very mild way of putting it. I've said this before about the Republicans and Dean. They will always find a Democrat to fixate their attacks on. It's like killing the number three guy in Al Quada. BANG - Got him! Wait, look! There's the number three guy of Al Quada hiding over there! BANG - Got him! Wait, look!...

If it isn't Dean, it will be Ted Kennedy, or Barney Frank, or Hillary in a careless moment when she lets down her Right Guard, or John Kerry again, they have lots of practice with John Kerry, or, or, or.... Dean is in an overtly partisan role now, let the Republicans concentrate their attacks on Dean rather than Reid or Pelosi. Do you seriously think the day can ever come when all Democratic leaders can be silver tongued enough that the Republicans won't be able to find some words spoken to twist and use against us? Get real.

Dean does speak for a large and important part of the Democratic Party, and the Party will be hopelessly divided if any serious effort were made to purge him now. That would cause far far worse damage than any Right Wing spin machine can do trying to twist a Dean comment to use against Democrats. Meanwhile I am very pleased by the way Dean is attempting to reinvigorate the State Democratic parties. Stop falling into Republican division fostering traps. Get over this blame Dean nonsense. It so happens that there are significant differences within the Democratic Party. Our Party Chair didn't cause them, and not all of them are unhealthy. Democracy itself involves debating different viewpoints. Answers aren't always easy, and public perceptions of the Republican and Democratic Parties are rooted in substance a lot deeper than any sound bits from any past present or future DNC Chair.

Thanks, Tom!

The current right wing operates by sewing the seeds of fear and division. That's how they've always operated.

*This is exactly the reaction they want!*

:hi:

I don't think that Dean advances the image of Dems as "snobby elitists". I think that his opponents like to portray him that way. I think that the DLC type Dem, although usually well meaning, are the elitists. I like having a Democrat from the Democratic wing of the party as chair. I sure hope that our side wins this skirmish, because if it doesn't, there really isn't enough choice between the two parties.

Republican leaders say some of the most far-out, fucked up shit imaginable. The average person doesn't pay attention to this nonsense drama.

Maybe you should think on that awhile? I hear you talk about this Party and who should represent it, and the issues that should be important, and I don't even recognize what you envision.

Maybe "hate" was strong, but I reallyreallyreally dislike Republicans. I disagree with their issues, their candidates, their governance... everything. Most of the Democratic base would agree with me and probably Dean. And, if you think we can win Iraq, you are sorely mistaken, and most of the Democratic base would agree with Dean and me on that, too. So, what, exactly, do you want Dean recalled for? Being too honest?

Like I said, maybe a little inner reflection might be in order. The Party you seem to envision is nothing I recognize. Please think about what I have just said. It's sincere. You can't recall a DNC Chair for speaking the truth, even if it's a truth you don't agree with.

TC

Keep pushing myself and other moderate/dlc dem's out of the party and see how far you get. But hey, at least youll stand for something right? roflmao.

You don't speak for me.

I know we are the Big Tent Party. I just wanted you to be sure you were in the right tent.

TC

If I wasnt I wouldnt for example spend 5 hours every friday at Cardin for Senate HQ's volunteering my time. I wouldnt donate my hard earned money to democratic candidates around the country. Im a democrat, I believe in core democratic principles. I just dont walk the line 100% of the time. More like 75-80%. :)

It's a big ass tent, why are we discriminating?

why would he be recalled for saying things, if he's still doing a good job?

And we knew what we were getting when we supported him, didn't we? He's never been a shrinking flower.

I'm having trouble with the concept that you supported him. Did you not know what you were supporting? He is who he is and never pretended to be anything else.

I liked Simon. I liked his organizational skills. I'd hoped he would be able to help Dean along. I don't know what he's doing now though. I'm not even sure he'd support such a measure.

Anyway, if we recalled our own Chairman, we'd be a laughing stock, and rightly so.

He is my DNC Chairman. I support Howard Dean. He and Kerry, with his "terrorizing" statement, did nothing more and nothing less than tell the damn truth.

Dean speaks for me.

:shrug:

Sorry some you have no stomach for the truth, but we will never "win" the war in Iraq -- just like Dean said. We can't turn it into a free and fully functioning democracy by bombing it half to bits, staging a military occupation, and then demanding they hold elections in the midst of an insurgency and growing civil war.

No, what Dean says lots of time isn't good political "spin," but it's the truth. The problem is that, at the time he says it, everyone whines how "outrageous" it is, but then 6 months later, it becomes accepted as fact.

Democrats need to quit fretting over whether the Repugs are going to "use our words against us!" Hell, it doesn't matter what we say, cause they'll just make shit up if they have to! Just look at Al Gore and the "invented the Internet" bullshit.

We need to just speak the truth and not give a Damn whether the Republicans approve or not.

Yeah, recall Dean. And the day you do is the start of his 2008 campaign for president.

on the second.

The reason Democrats are not used to Dean is because he is a sledgehammer in the age of wet noodles. He says EXACTLY what's on his mind, rather than trying to gussy it up for the media (who hate Democrats anyway). I hate Republicans--I hate fuckers who have done nothing but take from the less fortunate while simultaneously telling them it's "helping" them, and I hate morons who CONSISTENTLY vote against their best interests because they think their God is a Republican. I also believe that Iraqnam is military unwinnable--it was from the minute the bombing started.

as well as his "evil Republican machine" remark. Unfortunately, those of us in the large minority here who were against him because of his uncontrollable mouth, which was an issue during his own presidential campaign, would have none of it. The fact is that because Dean is so uncontrollable, the party has tried to do their best to keep him sheltered and has paid a price for it.

Those arguing Dean does better at raising money are off base. No matter how much better he may have done compared to previous years, we're in a different age. Internet fundraising, a Democratic party out of power at every level and being snubbed at every turn from policymaking creating intense anger with progressives, and an unpopular president... That combination should mean the DNC Chair would be doing spectacular if he had a pulse.

Dean needs to go, and an announcement over the Christmas break would be an excellent time to do it, as its typically a slow news cycle and it would provide time to establish a new chair ahead of the '06 elections. Otherwise, you'll have Republican candidates running against "the Howard Dean party", not their respective opponents.

members you want to be?

You might wanna' check out this thread before you jump to anymore conclusions about me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2302518

The Democratic Party has followed the lead of the DLC since Clinton came into office. In that time we've lost both houses of Congress and the Presidency.

With one party rule, the Republicans are in the process of robbing this nation blind. They've led us into an unnecessary war which seems to have no end.

Howard Dean was elected DNC chairman over the howling objections of the DLC. The DLC it should be noted, was unable to come up with an attractive and viable candidate for the office. Dean won. The DLC predicted disaster.

Dean diverted the party's resourses from paying for political consultants to funding organizing efforts in all 50 states. He raised more money in an off year than any Democratic chairman in history. We've just gone through an off year election in which the Democrats won all of the major contests except for the New York City mayors race wich was a hopeless mismatch from the gitgo. Things are looking up.

One big problem has been that Democrats have been unable to come up with a coherent strategy on the war. When Jack Murtha emerged with his withdrawal strategy the antiwar faction got a big boost. The Republicans went overboard in attacking war hero Murtha and it hurt them.

What Dean said was not much different than what Murtha was saying but Dean was alot more vulnerable and he has enemies in his own party who need no urging to join in the attack. Now the Republicans are attacking Dean, along with Kerry and Pelosi and getting tactical support from the DLC. This is stupid.

Why can't Democrats learn to act like a political party. Do you hear Republicans calling for Don Rumsfeld's head? That's because the Republicans have learned the value of unity. That may be one of the reasons that they win elections.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

honestly, removing him from dnc chair and might as well commit seppuku for this party and this nation.

this ain't a gentlemen's game anymore. this is all out war for the very soul of america. if one can't take it when people are throwing punches back, and can't figure out how to take advantage of someone running offensive cover, then perhaps one is too close to this front and needs to sit back awhile and learn.

He's sassy, he says what he thinks, and he is fearless.

Face it, the Republicans would denigrate whoever is DNC Chair. I don't think it sets a very good precedent to play musical chairs with our leaders in an attempt to placate the jackals. First of all, it ain't gonna happen regardless and, second, who really gives a crap what the cackling old women of the GOP say anyway?

Dudes and Dudettes--

This IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT Jan 2004...

Get over yourselves about Dean -- he's the one glimmer of hope in a swamp filled with Conventional Wisdom, More of the Same "chess players" who have lost hands down for the last decade.

Ooops.. Sorry-- as the initial post was obvious flame bait... guess I'm just tired of watching the flames...

Just because he spoke up and you didn't like what he said few times, you want to Recall him??? WHO DO YOU WANT TO SEE IN CHARGE AS DNC CHAIR??? Some wimpy Chair who is going to shill to GOP??? Give me a fucking break!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051128/pl_nm/iraq_usa_warner_dc

That's likely his motivation.

Dean and Warner on opposite sides of the aisle when it comes to the war. Warner is on the side of the DLC.

more would do?

Let's form the circular firing squad again...

Just in time for '06.


:sarcasm: maybe...

Which if he remains chair he will not do. Hey, good with me.

The DNC members select the DNC chair, and if either he or they decided they wanted to end the relationship, it would happen.

I think any action to remove him is ill-conceived.

Oh wait, regular folks like us didn't put the "leading intellectual" in his position of power. We have no say over the DLC - that's the corporations.

He comes right out and says the gawdawful things about other Democrats the rest of the DLC only thinks (except when directed to go after another Democrat, like Dean or Murtha). If he had even HALF the balls of Michael Moore, say, the DLC would have usurped the entire DNC by now. But, he keeps wagging his stupid mouth, talking about the Democrat Party base like they are a bunch of Lepers that should be quarantined on Molokai, MoveOn like it is a Cancer that needs to be cut out, and real Democratic electeds like they are real villains, and stupid ones, at that.

I think he serves us well. He needs to stay right where he is. Because every time he opens his mouth, we are reminded that the DLC is an entity that needs to be disregarded, villified, and stamped out of this Party. We are reminded that DLC candidates have the same mind-set and agenda as this creep, and they need to be voted out, or sent packing before they are even voted in.

No, I think Al From is heroic in a way. He stands up and says the most bizarre, disgusting, and off-the-wall things about other Democrats as if to WARN US so that later on, when the DLC has taken over (if, gawdforbid it does), he can look us in the eye and remind us... I was talking and talking, why didn't you listen?

TC

laughable! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL:rofl: Crack me the fuck up!

I distinctly remember the frequent bashing Terry McAuliffe here when he was DNC chair. Because of him being too wishy-washy. And now..a movement to recall Dean. That's the last damn thing we need prior to the midterms...or anytime. Dean is doing a fine job as DNC chair. There are some people who will be dissatisfied no matter who is DNC chair.

I'm outta here as far as the democratic party goes.

.. and what would this offense be? Speaking the way Republicans do on a regular basis?

We need 1,000 more Deans, not fewer. Or havent' you noticed how spectactularly ineffective our Dem senate is?

Dean stays and forget about Simon Resenberg hype. Ain't gonna happen, See?

He's the big stick we need to stir the Bu$hit.

I don't care if it's just what the Repubs want. If Dean loses his chairmanship I'm leaving the Dems for good. If they don't have the balls to speak truth to impending fascism then fuck 'em all. They don't deserve my support or my votes. I'll vote Green or take up with any party that would promote more Howard Deans.

I am serious as hell. If the DLC assholes think they're going to retake the party, they have their collective heads up their collective asses.

Lieberman and the corporate clowns at the DLC have muzzled the forces of resistance long enough.

"We can't win in Iraq" is not a gaffe.
It was NOT a gaffe when Dean argued the same point BEFORE * invaded.

How can we win, when we can't even define "winning" in Iraq?

Here is a conversation overheard in the 40's:




Everybody hatesNazi analogies, but try this one on for size:

Pieter: "But Hans, we just invaded and occupied FRANCE. I cannot remain silent"

Hans: "You are being very selfish. Why are you ignoring the bigger picture, Deutchland Uber Alles.
Do you want the inflation of the Wiemar? You are a silly extremist. Zieg Heil!"

I'm not now, and have never been a Deaniac. I find the cult worship he inspires in some to be wearisome.

I often have to restrain myself from wanting to pelt rotten tomatoes at those who keep trying to frame the centrist Dean as a progressive. I think they are helping the effort to frame the right/corporate wing of the party as "centrist."

I've never supported Dean for anything, until I read this post.

I think a true centrist is appropriate for the DNC. I appreciate someone who can energize the grassroots, and who isn't afraid to actually oppose the opposition.

Dr. Dean can stay at the helm.

because if that's what you maintain, by your opposition to Deans remarks, I have to disagree.

First, no one can even define what "victory" is.
Second, we've set ourselves up for one result: Failure
Third, taking less crossfire isn't winning.

IMO There's no way in hell that we can win in IRAQ.

You think I'm wrong? Let's hear from you how we are going to win there. Just bullet points would be fine.

remarkably quiet when the REAL issue is put out there, instead of straw man excuse for an attack on Dean.

It's not like this is the first time he's been blunt. We all knew what we were getting - you're just getting cold feet.

Dean is fantastic!

What is wrong with you? Dean is our man! Sure, he gets a little out of control sometimes, but he's a Dem with a spine! He is not afraid to speak out and express how he feels. He is exactly what the party needed.

Its only natural to expect the GOP and news media to distort everything he says. The fact that they're fighting him means they're scared.

As a party we have to stand and fight. If we don't we could be in even worse shape in 2006.

Keep in mind that following the advice of the GOP, the news media and conservative Dems has lost nearly every race in the last 8 years.

wing propaganda machine.

He may be a bit of a loose cannon, but at least he's got a spine.

Democrats have been playing it wayyyy to safe and it ain't working......

I thinnk if Kerry had spoken out more he would have won the presidency.

Skinner has it right. 98% of the country can't name the Republican or Democratic party chair. But whenever Dean goes "loose cannon", a good chunk of that 2% gets out their wallets and donates to the party.

Give the guy the benefit of the doubt for now. If he fucks up the '06 elections then we can talk about asking him to resign.

stigma of being weak on national defense for over 35 years. While most people don't know how that got started they DO know it is a stigma that is attached to the Democrats. So, while most people don't know who the party chairs are, Dean's profile is higher because he was a presidential candidate and at least half of America is aware of him and aware that he makes very controversial statements.

It's very nice for Howard to promise a 50 state strategy. He promised the same thing in 2004. I haven't seen any evidence that he is actually doing anything other than talking about it.

Okay so he ran for President and thus his name ID is a bit higher. That means that people know that he was that guy who ran for the nomination last year and gave "the scream" speech. Most people don't even really pay attention to primaries outside of Iowa and New Hampshire. Not to mention that many people who know him from the primaries don't even know that he is currently the DNC chair.

Only the party faithful on either side really know who Howard Dean is or what he is saying. The only people he is pissing off is the party faithful on the other side and frankly I don't think anybody here gives a shit about what they think. While on the other hand, he is pleasing our party faithful very much and that means that they will give $$$$ which is the key to politics in this country.

The people who actually VOTE know who he is. The others don't really matter in this discussion.

Party faithful are people who contribute money, post on political blogs, knock on doors, make phone calls, etc. to get their candidate elected. Party faithful have already chosen their candidate years in advance of the election. DU is a good example. Most of DU is pretty much going to vote for the Democrat in 2008. Nobody on DU is going to start voting for the GOP because FAUX news takes Howard Dean's comments and uses them to paint hate Democrats as weak on national security.

The average voter is far different from this. The average voters are the people who watch the conventions, watch the debates, and sadly watch the television ads and news networks, look at how they are personally doing financially, and decide who they are going to vote for based on these things.

cited by casual political observers as what is wrong with the Democrats. I know that I have heard this from two people in totally non political settings recently. Don't even try to convince me that the people you know who are only casual observers have never heard of Dean, and that they do not have a negative perception of him. I just wouldn't believe you. Try to convince somebody else of that. It's like you say Dean's name and people freeze up and quickly want to change the subject so as not to offend.

more..because that's exactly what Dean is doing..Dean doesn't just give lip service, he acts.

Dean needs to go. And Simon Rosenberg was the Chair we should have gone with (just ask Chris Heinz).

Rove might as well be writing his speeches at this rate.

them with one of our own.

I looked into this back when Dean made his incredibly stupid remarks about the Republican Party being the party for Christians(!!!). I about flipped when he said that. He sounded like some drunk in a bar, shooting off his mouth just to hear his own voice. We had serious Democrats going around explaining "Dean doesn't speak for the party and he doesn't speak for me". We can't have a Chairman that causes all our people to take time covering for him. He makes himself the news when we need to keep the attention on Republican abuses and incompetence. Then, when he said Delay "ought to just go back to Texas and start serving his time" - another statement that's fine if you are a nobody talking in a bar - but NOT the chairman of a national party. Now, you can say you think the guy is sleaze-ball and no doubt guilty as hell, but not say it the way he did. He could have said something like: "Well, every man is innocent until proven guilty. But Mr. Delay is a very smart man. I would be very surprised if he got caught. He's a very clever guy." We want people to recognize the REpublicans as the party of zealots not compete for that title with some of our own!

You are, of course correct. Dean is a good guy for grass roots motivating the troops sort of action, but you can't be the chairman of a party and talk like that. If he wants to shoot off his mouth without thinking (which seems to be his preference) he needs to step down before he does much more damage. It's hard enough to win elections against the well oiled disinformation/attack machine the Republicans have got going(let alone Diebold's creative vote counting).

I wasn't able to find any formal procedure for a recall. I think the only thing you can do is email the prominent Dems and make an appeal to them (as well as to other Dems of course, like you are doing). You might submit your appeal to Buzzflash mailbag. Don't bother going to the Dem National Committee, it's packed with Dean 'True Believers'.

Politics is something like war. Napoleon said the biggest enemy of courage is fatigue. When soldiers get fatigued they can all lose their courage. Well, in politics it's not just a matter of a couple glorious victories or brave frontal assaults. Sure, it's fun to say some "shove it up your ass" type statements, but it takes a lot more than that to forge a winning platform, win an election and run a country for Chrissakes!! You've got to hang in there to win the war not just a few glorious battles. Often, those who are in it for a glorious signal victory, where you crush the opposition, in the long run you can't count on them to hang in there. They are often the first to say: "Oh, the hell with it. Politics is shit! I quit!".

Keep with it. I'm with you!

correct. Please don't give us the Hannity/Limbaugh spin.

Dean never said anything about the "Republican Party being the party for Christians". What he said was that the party was "pretty much a white, Christian party." Since the GOP is 74% white Christians, what part of that statement is wrong?

As for DeLay, I can't wait for his money laundering trial to begin, and he'll probably never get back his leadership position.

what he said. And what do you think most people came away with from his statement, an exact quote in their heads? ("uh, yeah, last time I checked the Almanac the Republican party was 74.3% ...").. or will they come away with an impresion he was telling a large segment of the U.S. population that the Democratic Party has written them off so they might as well just go vote Fascist. He was AGREEING WITH Republican propaganda (that they are the "Values" party - keep in mind people who identify themselves as Christians think they are the sole protectors of 'American values'). And they aren't even paying him to campaign for them, such a deal!!

Every other time Dean opens his mouth he helps the Republicans. I'm sure they love the guy. They're hoping he stays as Chairman. Just makes their job that much easier.

But then the rightwing panders to those who have less than half a brain. Stop believing them!

If the GOP loved Dean so much, they'd stop quoting him out of context, wouldn't they?

and they know most won't ever check up on the original quote.

Re comment about half a brain - it's not wise to overestimate the electorate.

Re diversity, I hope said diversity doesn't appear to reject, out of hand, a large segment of the population whose votes we could use. I wouldn't want to lose votes because they misunderstood something he said. IF he meant to say the REpubs are not inclusive of all our society's people then, that's the way he should have said it.

He chose an inartful way of putting it.

I guess then we should just continue to say nothing. It'll be much better for us — then the right wing will only say nice things about Democrats, right?

That Rosenberg?

I mean, who else would give the GOP a good smack? I think you have ben reading too many tabloids and Fox News

since he took over as Chair. On one hand I am willing to give him a little longer on it since this isn't an election year. On the other, if we wait too long, it will hurt the '06 elections. He was so dynamic as a candidate and really seemed to know how to invigorate and use the so-called masses. So far nothing's changed in the Democratic Party, one that's usually horrible about the grassroots efforts and doesn't use its supporters to the best of its ability.

who gets on the national media and is relatively honest.

And when the party bigwigs force him to do their talking points, he does it poorly enough that people can see right through it.

thanks, but no thanks.

political parity.

during the clinton years they took over as the leading political power -- still using political extremism as their primary
public vehicle for that ride.

in 00 the republican extremist strategy put forward a politically exteme candidate{sold some what as a moderate, a phony muscular moderate} and came damn near to winning the election.

what the dlc has done all along is play a kind of tuck the tail political strategy{notable for loads of corporate influence} that has gained the democratic party nothing -- and done more to further the political capitulation to the corporate oligarchy and their agenda.

consequently the democratic party has had to work harder than ever to regain vigorous, muscular language and strategy that begins to look and feel authentic to the voters and --

you want to abandon this in favor of the strategy that kept guys like daschle and mcaulife in places of power for too long?
that looks and feels inauthentic to most sincere, intelligent people?

the only people who are going to benefit in a big way to a dlc approach to the political game are the same people who are benefitting from bushco.
the already rich and powerful.

the only problem the left has suffered from is a muscular, authentic approach to their own political views --
inauthenticity, i.e. perceived weaknes is what makes the voter tepid in their response to the pary.

people don't care if a political party is against the war{especially now} people care that the politicians are believable, powerful when they state what their political convictions are.
dean provides a vehicle{maybe even THE vehicle} for that political renaisence.

i've seen no evidence that the dlc is offering any kind of moderation when it attacks people in it's ''own'' party -- but i have seen public recalcitrance and bitterness from folks like peter beinart and al from and crew.

you can go back to the reagan years strategy and begin a new hiatus in the wilderness -- but don't ask true blue lefties to go with you -- accusing us of ''political purity''{there's a phony argument if there ever was one} and ''elitism''.

we're the ones asking, demanding a strong, authentic, identifiable left of center politics -- one that is not obviously covering for the corporate reach for political power and tax payers dollars.

It's about time someone at the national level stood up to the repthugs and started saying what most of the country thinks.

Do you think we can? I point you to an article in the recent Rolling Stone about an insurgent-for-hire named Khalid. Khalid's only, and I mean ONLY reason for fighting in Iraq is because he wants to get foreign troops out of there. He fought in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion, he fought in Bosnia, he fought in Kosovo. This is what American forces are up against. These insurgents will not stop. They do not care about democracy.

So, I ask you, is it OK to send Americans to the slaughter to die for religious extremism? Because I don't. We need to get out of there immediately. Like yesterday. These fucking Democrats who think the war is winnable and democracy will be achieved need to go strap on some body armor and get over there to experience it first-hand. The insurgents are fighting for something else entirely.

I like Dean where he is. He's perfect for the job and 2006 will be the test to see how he's doing. I supported Dean for the chair and he should serve out his term.

Face it, the DLC totally lost the battle for chairman. Rosenberg wasn't wanted.

Recall him, 3rd party will start.

:eyes:

I'll stay with Howard Dean.

oh wait....the Dems WON in 2005 and were losing before he became chairman.

Did it ever occur to you that a fiscally conservative candidate could work WITH the DLC to advance the cause? That adopting the Republican revolutionary strategy of running in every election everywhere means running where we know we'll lose and still come close or sometimes pull off an upset win? That progressive by red-state standards might be unthinkable in a blue state? That Dean might even be a moderate Dem's ally?

You know where I stand. Yes, Nick, free speech is beautiful. Moderate DFC Democrat here. :patriot:

(note: DFC, not DLC)

I could do without you, but seriously Dean has done more for this party than most of us could ever hope to do.

Dean speaks the truth, and his lying opponents want to call him a 'loose cannon'.

The lies will eventually catch up to the rethuglicans, as they have started to. As this continues, Dean's base building will leave us much better off in the long haul.

Howard Dean is not a loose cannon. He parrotted the words Bush said in August 1994, so why should Dean be trotted out for saying the same thing? He's the only person who has the guts to shoot back at the republican lies. We all know what this damned war is all about, and how Bush & his coherts lied to get us involved in the bloody mess. So Howard Dean makes a true statement, and gets labeled as a loose cannon? unbelievable; it's no damned wonder the right wingers tramp all over us; we're just too soft on them, and so afraid of them, we distance ourselves from a true leader every time they say boo. I shall remember those who are distancing themselves from Howard Dean; and I'll be damned if I'll mark an X by their name on the ballot.

:mad: :argh: :grr: :shrug: :spray:

And I was one of the first people posting links and pushing Dean for Chair on DU and I don't remember you chiming in, nick.

back Dean. They said that Dean has fostered the BEST relationship between state and national DNC orgs in DNC history.

And you won't get my vote for your recall effort.

I'm tired of arguing right now. So I will make it simple

He isn't running for anything, and really doesnt' have to worry about nitpicky accountability crap that the GOP tries to use for his talking points. Dean is the pitbull we sic on the fundies and the right-wingers, and this is leagues better than the pansy Terry McAuliffe era or trying to run as GOP Lite.