Outgoing vs. incoming monitoring of international calls? Laws?

Apologies if this line of thinking has already been covered, but:

How would you know which citizens' outgoing calls to monitor? From from an investigation that would have yielded probable cause to listen to that person. In other words, plenty of time to get your act together for a FISA warrant.

Now, how about incoming calls? Suspected terrorist phone number overseas lights up a satellite path into US line. Coming into an unknown US citizen (or to a person on a "watch list" but for whom PC does not exist in any true legal sense.)

So you listen in to both sides. But the receiver is a US citizen.

Leaving aside for the moment whether or not the receiver above then becomes the subject of FISA or extra-FISA surveillance, does anyone know how the law applies to case in which both parties are in the US vs international calls? That is, if you are tapping a mob boss, then you'll hear his calls to innocent 3rd parties who are US citizens: his niece, his mechanic, etc.

But what about international calls coming to US. Anyone know the law?

I'll admit I'm uninformed, but my guess is that *this* is where Bush broke the law. The combined RW talking points yesterday just stuck in my craw as illogical, namely 1) "they were calls originating in the US" and 2) "we had to act fast." Again, if you know who to listen in on in US, you've developed a case over days/weeks/months and have time for a FISA warrant. The "had to act fast" reasoning only makes sense to me if the call is coming from suspect country...er, neighborhood...er, individual...to an unknown party in states.

In short, does US law demand that there be a warrant on the US receiver on international surveillance? It seems to me it must. If it didn't, wouldn't ALL incoming calls be subject to warrantless monitoring? I mean US law wouldn't apply to the French dude in the the export business either.

Are there international laws that apply?

Apologies in advance for taking anything these shit heels say at close to face value. But to say I'm disturbed by this is an understatement. Maybe I've spent too much time trying to make sense of this bullshit.

BushCo has no leg to stand on. The only reason they would have bypassed the FISA regulations is because they wanted to spy on political rivals and ordinary Americans. They knew the court wouldn't approve so they didn't ask for permission.

I undertand that they have 72 retro hours to get a FISA warrant on a dedicated tap on a US citizen's line. Sorry if I was unlcear above, but my main question regards the primary surveillance target, the reciever, nationality, and probable cause.

In short, if I'm a suspected terorist from overseas and I call you, do they need a warrant on you b/c you are a US citizen?

If I were a mob boss in US and called you, another US citizen, my understanding is they wouldn't need a warrant on you. They'd listen to all my calls, in and out. But they would have had to established PC to do this to me as mob boss.

But if I'm an int'l terrorist suspect calling you to wish you happy birthday, you would be the only US citizen in the exchange. And this is the real crux of my question. Would they need to have a warrant to listen to you, a US citizen, without PC in this int'l scenario?

Again sorry if I'm consufusing above, still confusing, or missing something here.

:hi:

that's the red herring to try an avoid investigations, I'll bet my fucking house that ILLEGAL domestic spying has occured.

But I'm just trying to drill down through the stuff we have to work with (and again, taking this bunch at face value is likely ill-advised). As such, I've been hunting around for the appropriate statues re: monitoring of incoming int'l calls to US citizens, but no luck so far.

I realize that no one is going to have this on top of head, but had hoped someone had come across an investigative piece, legal blogger, etc. in last few days.

Do you agree that the "had to act fast" argument doesn't hold up for outgoing calls from US citizens that are under suspician? First there is the work up (and hence, ample time for FISA warrant), then the 72 hours retroactive thing. That's the thing that nagged at me and got me to this point.

I mean, I want to pin them down. Incoming or outgoing, I think the real reason was lack of PC. Outgoing: suspcious but no PC threshold that could be met, but they eavedropped anyway. Incoming: (I suspect) need to have warrant for reciever of call, and defacto, no PC on calls from int'l suspects to unknown parties in US.

Hope I'm making sense here. I can't spin it anyother way except the crime seems, on its face, worse than not getting FISA authority to chase "bad guys." In my opinion, they puposely did it because they knew they couldn't meet PC. Which is more damning, IMO, than that which the story is currently reflecting.

Back to the hunt....


:hi: