This Is Why We Lose Elections

Because our "side" does not know how to play politics. The far left is as committed and as fiercely devoted as the far right.

The difference is the far right knows how to exploit opportunities to play on sentiment and to win national political battles in the "culture war."

Witness this thread in GD: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5689818

Now granted this is a silly issue, but it is demonstrative of the problem.

And, as we've seen with the "War On Christmas", silly issues can be public relations bonanzas for those who exploit them well.

But no one on this thread is getting my point!!

What the hell is wrong with liberals?

Sign me,

Frustrated as hell.

Down with Capitalist Swine & Death to Fascism but the nice libs don't want to tread on toes of their more conservative "friends" and colleagues and blah, blah, blah...

the major Dems (Pelosi, Feingold, etc) are beginning to realize this? I do, and hope they keep it up. There has been too much fear shown from them. Time to get some balls and fight back. But it can't justbe 5 or 6 of them.

.are not People who use others just for the sake of using people for our own gain...
Only Human Scum do that..

and start winning elections.

JMHO.

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and I'd be ashamed if my side were to participate in something similar. Sinking to their depths and playing their game by saying "Nah nah, nah-nah, nah" this Christian or that Christian was trying to wage war on Christmas.....sorry, it just seems petty to me.

What I think we should do is highlight how the "war on Christmas" is just a ruse to divide people and cause hatred and division. We ought to be pointing out how low-down dirty it is to do this kind of crap on Christmas, not participate in it. JMO. I'm no political strategist, perhaps that's obvious.

by exploiting EXACTLY this kind of stuff. If we stick our noses in the air and say we're too good to participate in this, we will never have a chance to govern again and implement our views. The vast middle of the electorate unfortunately don't respond to issues - if they responded to intelligent issues, the Republicans would not be in power. They respond to EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION and gut feelings, like whether they "like" presidential Candidate A versus presidential candidate B, and whom they would rather "have a beer" with.

Granted, I come at this from a purely political strategist point of view, but jeez, don't we have to win elections before we start governing?

I agree that Dems must go for the jugular and stop this BS of trying to play nice. It's pointless and ineffective, and it makes them look weak. They can still maintain dignity at the same time stopping this crap in its tracks. Immediate response.

abandoned the base. It's as simple as that.

Everything else is window dressing.

Memo to democrats: "business" and the politics of greed are not our friends. If dems could get back to working for people's interests, rather than corporate interests more often than not-- and educating the electorate about where their personal interests lie-- they'd suddenly find themselves winning elections easily, IMO.

Democrats think they know what the Republicans think, and why they think it. The Dems spend too much time telling the Repubs why the Repubs have voted the way they have--instead of asking and believing--why the Repubs say they have voted the way they have.

Repubs know why they vote the way they do--and they'll tell you the truth if you ask them.

Why do you think Republicans vote the way they do...?

I would have to say for the same reasons Democrats, Independents, Greenies etc. vote the way they do--because they believe in the majority of values their chosen candidate/side holds.

In the case of Republican voters....

That depends on the candidate, the times, the election--I'm sure I can't speak for what the Republicans think en masse, for each election. Common sense dictates people vote pretty much using the same process. (And I am a female, as my profile shows.)

But in a matter such as this, some specifics would be helpful to understanding the point you are seeking to esrablish.

1). That people vote pretty much for the same reasons: their beliefs about one side or the other.

2). That I see the Repubs tell the Democrats why they did not support their candidate all the time, but the Democrats do not believe them and listen. If the Dems DID listen, they'd KNOW how to get their votes--maybe not all, but some.

Instead, it's easier for Dems to believe elections were stolen, or the Pubs vote the way they do because they all 'vote in lockstep' or because they are 'waiting for the rapture' or because they are 'stupid, toothless hick red-staters that don't know how to think' etc.

Believe whatever you want to--whatever makes you feel good--but the Repubs SAY exactly why they vote the way they do--and nobody on the Dem side is listening.

Some voted for Bush**ler because they believe the Swift Boat liars.

Some voted for Bush**ler because they believe that Iraq was behind 9/11.

Some voted for Bush**ler because they think all Democrats are "big spenders".

The "beliefs" that caused these people to vote for ** were out-and-out lies
that were endlessly parroted by the Rethuglican media. To get their votes,
we need some way to reach these people. That will be very difficult, since
they get all of their information from TV, and the Republicans control that.

Then there are the rapture people, the bigots, and "toothless hick red-staters":

Some voted for Bush**ler because they hate gay people.

Some voted for Bush**ler because they want abortion and birth control to be banned.

Some voted for Bush**ler because their preacher told them to.

Some voted for Bush**ler because they are Dominionists and want a theocracy.

Some voted for Bush**ler because they think the Iraq war is the new Crusade.

There isn't anything we can do to get their votes, though there are always Democrats
willing to try throwing our less-popular constituancies to the lions when the
haters seem to outnumber them.


Then there were some who thought they voted for Kerry
(and told the exit pollers they voted for Kerry)
but the Diebold Republican Electing Machines changed their vote.

There were thousands who tried to vote, but got Blackwelled -- either prevented from
voting entirely, or forced to use a provisional ballot (most of which didn't get counted).

Also:

Some voted for Bush**ler because they thought the Democrats had no credible stance on Iraq or the larger issue of how to deal with terrorism. (1)

Some voted for Bush**ler because they were fed up with "activists judges". (2)

Some voted for Bush**ler because they thought the national media was slanting the news to hurt him. (3)


Before anybody flames me, I'm not saying the above are true; I'm just saying that those are some other reasons that people have given. As Nuff points out, what motivates voters is no secret - just ask them. Any before anyone jumps in to claim that the above viewpoints are wacko, extreme right-wing positions, stop and think it through from the other side's point of view.

Nuff raises a good point. If Democrats want to win over voters that currently vote Republican (and that is what it takes to win elections) then perhaps they should listen to those voters rather than dismiss them as ignorant, racist, sexist, homophobes, religious fanatics or gun nuts. I would think that insulting someone is not the best way to start a conversation about the direction the nation should take.



____________
(1) Not exactly false. As late as this month Rep. Pelosi publicly said that there was no "Democratic position" on Iraq.

(2) This is the flip side of "they hate gay people". I think that a reasonable person could admit, that regardless of their position on gay marriage, the Mass. Supreme Court suddenly found a constitutional right that had eluded everyone for centuries.

(3) The infamous 60 Minutes story fed that impression tremendously. I'm not really interested in reopening the debate over whether the documents were fraudulent or not. I just want to point out that the piece was shoddy journalism, at best, and served to reinforce a widespread image of a biased media.

As if "staying the course" is credible when there is no course, just lots of killing and dying for nothing.




Catch the terrorists and put them in prison. Stop them before they strike if you can. Clinton did both of these things, without
trampling on civil liberties. Bush** has failed to do either, despite mounting an unprecedented assault on the Constitution.




What about the activist judges that put Bush**ler in the White House in the first place?
They aren't talking about them, of course.
It's a code word, so they don't have to say what they really mean and put their bigotry on public display.




which was an impression that was created by the very same national media, as part of their purge of the few remaining non-Rethuglican elements.



I think the Democratic position is to get out. There is some discussion about timetable and logistics.

Then there is the Likud position.




What part of "equal protection of the law" is so difficult to understand? Especially in Massachusetts, whose state Constitution has stronger protections for civil rights than the US Constitution.




Which was what it was meant to do. It was a set-up. It diverted attention away from the real issue of **'s AWOLness from military service.

As I tried to make clear in my prior post, I'm not necessarily advocating for those views or even saying I agree with them. I'm merely trying to point out that a person could hold one or more without having to be a wild-eyed nut case. Each of those was a point of view that a reasonable person could hold. One problem that both parties face is the unwillingness or inability for those who are most ardent to see that there actually are reasonable people on the other side. To the extent those same ardent partisans control the party apparatus, this proves a detriment to convincing the vast majority in the middle.

Andy T accurately enumerate's the standard "reasons" given by the repugs on why they vote they way they do, and who they think represents their "values".

the argument that Dems don't take the time to listen to the "right" is simply absurd. It is clear, that the Dems listen only too well and too much.

in other words, the dems place woefully too much weight and far too much deference to the "reasoning" of the Wrong Party's views and opinions on any issue.

the fact that the Republican political machine is very good at making people vote AGAINST their own self interests.

The lower middle class, for example, in the midwest should be voting Democrat en masse. The Democratic party espouses positions that HELP them economically. But, they vote against their own interests, because the Republicans exploit and manipulate issues such as guns, gay marriage and the "War on Christmas" and effectively make people AFRAID of voting Democratic.

My point is we have to start doing the same thing back. WE need an effective P.R. machine that exploits and manipulates EMOTIONAL issues, like Terri Schiavo, right to privacy, right to medical decision making, fear of Big Brother government bugging your phone, the "War on Santa", etc. to make the vast middle AFRAID of voting Republican.

It's sad that this is how politics works in this country, but that's the reality of it. We can talk till we're blue in the face on issues, but when we're facing a savvy opponent that uses manipulative emotional buzz issues, we will lose every time until we start getting as crafty as they are.

That they want to take your taxes and give it to lazy people who have never worked a day in their lives, let all the criminals out of prison, close all the churches, and grab all the guns. They may tell you they want social security or rehabilitation or even sensible gun regulation. But when it comes time to vote, especially for President, their hatred of Democrats overtakes all common sense that they may have displayed any other day of the year.

...the Democrats will tell them that they are nothing but greedy corporate toadies that warmonger just to kill our kids, fill their bank accounts with graft, and sacrifice themselves in their place. The Pubbies will get told that they care nothing for this country, that they want to dominate the entire world, and that their imperial designs on the rest of the world are about oil, oil, and more oil--and that they don't care who or what they have to ruin to get it. They'll be called election stealers and crooks, liars and thieves. The Green party will tell them they are responsible for global warming, whales dying, earthquakes and tsunamies, and the depletion of the world's resources.

And on and on. It works both ways--and I think you know that, too.

The Democrats will be telling the truth.

the Republicans are lying, treasonous thugs.

BCCI was the first and biggest terrorist supporting bank and Bush and his cronies used it and protected it for decades.

The GOPcontrolled media helped them get away with it and never even BOTHERED to keep the American people informed of the terror coddling Bushistas.

No one who understands what happened in BCCI could vote for a Bush.

Funny how the Bushes are so damn cozy with Bin Ladens and RevMoon.

Is coddling the antiChrist a GOP value?

Having said that, until we stand up and are as fierce in defending our ground as the Repubs, we will continue to have them stolen.

... through total serendipity while Christmas shopping.

My husband and I (we hadn't seen it in years) watched it the other night, and our immediate response was the same: All powers-that-be in the Democratic Party should sit down and watch it -- and be reminded what it was like to have movers in the party who DIDN'T BACK DOWN, and were willing to play hardball when necessary.

I hate to say it, but much of the problem, IMHO, rests with Democtratic campaign 'consultants', who invariably advise candidates to play the 'good guy' all the time, regardless of what outrageous things the 'other side' is saying and/or doing.

We've heard it a million times, here on DU and other sites: "Why wasn't Gore as passionate during his campaign as he was BEFORE and AFTER?" "If only Kerry had SHOWN the same passion and anger DURING his presidential bid as he'd shown before, and has shown RECENTLY."

You have to wonder why men like Gore and Kerry (and there are others) act one way before and after campaigns, and become robot-like and distant DURING campaigns.

I'm hoping that whatever Dems run in future look to places like DU and other websites to gauge the true feelings of their constitutents, and don't fall into the trap of hiring 'advisors' -- many of whom are past their prime, in terms of being in touch with the average Democratic voter.

has set up a room simply to respond to media articles throughtout the world in response to Bush's foriegn policy. Now, I believe its part of a disinformation and propaganda machine that I DON'T support, but that being said..

It speaks to the level of coordination, cooperation and strategic thinking that the Republican party has come to perfect. We need just as much strategic initiative on the left if we are EVER going to compete and take this country back. It can still be done within integrity but we have to be a united progressive front.

Another thing is that a lot of progressives are so caught up in their pet issues they are divided amongst themselves...and thats how the Rethugs like it and makes us an easy target.

... about "a lot of progressives are so caught up in their pet issues they are divided amongst themselves..." is so true.

Dems should lay out a platform that ensures consistency of thought and idea, not only with each other but with the American populace:

Transparency of government
Accurate (tamper-proof) election tabulations
Improvements in education, health, and social programs
Corporations and the wealthy paying their fair share of taxes
Less influence of Big Business and Big Pharma over gov't policies

The list goes on and on.

These are the things ALL AMERICANS want -- and should be the message that the Democratic Party gets out there, over and over.

As for finger-pointing and the ever-popular 'Blame Game' -- let's have at it! This Admin has ruined everything it has touched, from the economy to foreign policy. We should remind the GOP, at every turn, that they've given us a lot to blame them for -- and when it comes to playing the Blame Game, it's the 'blamers' who call the shots, not the 'blamees' ...

We have nothing like this on our side. Nothing.

Dean (and I love Howard, so please, no Howard defenders should flame this) should be setting up a DNC War Room and responding to and manipulating every story in the press.

Problem is the RNC has an ENTIRE NETWORK (Fox) that it co ordinates with and plots strategy with. That's how this absurd "War On Christmas" got so much mileage. It was beautifully orchestrated.

We need to get a vast, well oiled publicity machine up and humming. Talking points from Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi just don't cut it.

I do not believe, rather I know that eventually people will return in ever increasing numbers to Socialism. The capitalist free-market system will eventually prove to be unaffordable because of the inherent waste and inequity. As more of the global population achieves a standard of living of a minimum basic standard societal pressures will see an increased organisation of labour. This was and remains the only industrial weapon in the arsenal of the poor aginst the entrenched conservatism of globalised capital.

You'll have to spell your point out for us from the denser crowd.

on the spectrum. Most Americans are in the middle although agree with one side or another and occasionally both on some issues.

The current administration and/or policymakers cannot be defined by party affiliation or left or right. They are a contradictory group. They are experts on the psychology of popular movements. They use the tools of cults, communism and fascism in such a way that those who are not familiar with the tactics can be drawn in. Fear is their best tool and allows them to use emotion and false logic as a premise for a logical strategy.

It is all purely Straussian. Most of the issues that are important to the far right or the far left are of no interest to the average voter. Those who are passionate on each side are tossed an issue to argue and debate--often with Limbaugh and ilk as messengers--to keep activists types busy. Meanwhile, corporations rob employees, our civil rights are wittled away and Congress and the judiary are stacked with cronies and followers of the New Order.

I think the Dems are so sorely lacking organization at the local level, it's pathetic. Until we get it together at the county level across this country we will do poorly.

Julie

Rational people who were on the fence are mad at Target for "firing a cashier for saying Merry Christmas". All lies, but people believe and blame liberals.

It takes a while to defeat liars. People have to become disillusioned with something in their personal lives before they'll do something about it at the polls. The Republican theft of Christianity has been very helpful to them, and is really all they have left. That's why they're pushing so hard with the "War on Christmas" bull.

thats why liberals suck, and progressives are the wave of the future.

We do need to be better on the spin. Peace and low stress,
mdmc

Unfortunately I am just one person in one city so my reach is nowhere near Rove's. Witness a sampling of my dirty politics flyers:

http://bushcheated04.com/flyers.html

And my newest is IMPEACH BUSH

http://bushcheated04.com/impeach.pdf

We won in Virginia.. We won in New Jersey... and we made a total fool out of Schwartzeneggerin California!


You could have never written that headline after the last election, because we were all on top of the world here!



And we're going to win in '06 big time too!! You'll see ~~ :hug:

:toast:

I've been screaming about this for a while - not just here, but in general. The Republican spin machine is superb at what it does - evil, but superb. We (the Dems) never get that. We never try to counteract it or use our own. You can spin without lying and cheating. But, instead, we just sit back and watch them get ahead - or, even worse, half the time we hand them the material to use! It's so frustrating!!!

I don't care for the "glass half empty" approach. It took the Repukes 30 years to get control. And they are acting like power crazed psychopaths in only a few years after gaining this power. I think the repukes should be wondering how they are going to hold power since forcing people to think the way they do will only work for so long. Now, wasting time on this silly "war on Christmas" crap doesn't accomplish anything IMHO.

The American vote count is controlled by three major corporate players, Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia, and a fourth, SAIC, Science Applications International. All four are hard-wired into the Bush power structure, the Bush crime family. They have been given millions of dollars by the Bush regime to complete a sweeping computerization of voting machines that were just used in the 2004 election. The technology involved had a trial run during the 2002 mid-term elections. Georgia had Diebold machines in every precinct. As a result, a popular Democratic governor and senator were both unseated in what the media called an "amazing" 16 percent swing.

Diebold's Walden O'Dell, a top Bush fundraiser, publicly committed himself to delivering his home state Ohio's votes to Bush. At Diebold, the election division is run by Bob Urosevich. Bob's brother, Todd, is a top executive at "rival" ES&S. The brothers were originally staked by Howard Ahmanson, a member of the Council For National Policy, a right-wing steering group stacked with Bush true believers. Ahmanson is also one of the bagmen behind the extremist Christian Reconstruction Movement, which advocates the theocratic takeover of American democracy.

The four companies are interconnected; they are not four "competitors." Ahmanson has large stakes in ES&S, whose former CEO was Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. When Hagel ran for office, his own company counted the votes, and his victory was considered "an amazing upset." Hagel still has a million dollar stake in ES&S.

Sequoia is the corporate parent of a private equity firm, Madison Dearborn, which is partner in the Carlyle Group.

Meanwhile, SAIC is referred to a "shadowy defense contractor." They have gotten into the vote count game both directly and through spinoffs by its top brass, including Admiral Bill Owens, former military aide to Dick Cheney, and Carlyle Group honcho Frank Carlucci and ex-CIA chief Robert Gates. SAIC's history of fraud charges and security "lapses" haven't prevented it from becoming one of the largest Pentagon and CIA contractors, and will doubtless encounter few obstacles in its entrance into the vote counting business.

The mad rush to install these unverifiable computers is driven by the Help America Vote Act, signed by Bush. The chief lobbying group pushing for the act was a consortium of arms dealers including Northrup Grumman and Lockheed Martin.

When you hear people saying, 'take a deep breath, we will pull through this,' 'we need to work harder,' 'we need to organize'-no. We will not. It's over. Unless electronic vote tabulation is history, and these companies are driven out of business, it's their country. Not ours.

Nobody knows, and no one will ever know, what the actual vote count was. There are no checks and balances left. The US Senate now has 55 of these Republicans. When they hit 60, which is what will happen in 2006 mid-term elections -- trust me -- that means that no matter what Bush and the crime family want to do, they can do it. The House is gone for the next two to five generations. It's gone.

The last thing rational people in this country need right now is this whistling-past-the-graveyard horse hockey. Nothing is going to happen; it's going to get worse. There will never again be a legitimate election in this county. Until we get rid of the machines.
source: Mike Malloy, Nov 2004
Any more questions????? Take the Bush Crime Regime DOWN! visit http://www.offrampbums.com/bushbum.html and send YOUR message to Washington

Thank goodness they only comprise a tiny fraction of Americans - I can't even recall the last time I heard about a Maoist or Stalinist running for office in the United States!

(I mean, that's what far left actually entails, so I think we're doing okay.)

This winner take all two party system is too easy for big corporate interests to game.

Blaming the War on Christmas for our currents ills is sort of silly.

:headbang: