What is The South doing to African-Americans that makes them so polite?

I've been staying at a hotel near Boston for the past few weeks, and noticed something interesting.

Almost every time I say hello to a black person visiting from a southern state, they call me "Sir."

No, those people don't work for the hotel. They're just visiting. They're not staff. I am not their customer.

And they're always older than I am.

Is there a polite way of telling them that once they're north of the Mason-Dixon Line, they don't have to call anyone "Sir" unless they're talking to a cop or a customer?

This is Massachusetts.

We're a Blue State.

They're not in Jesusland anymore.

They're free now!

They can vote without a poll-tax, they can get gay married, and they don't have to call every white guy they meet "Sir."

White people in the South use "Sir" as well.

i don't know this, i'm just sayin'.

edit:typo

In the south people do not use sir with people they know but many do when they are talking to strangers.

i use sir with people i know (depends on the situation).

but you are correct about strangers.

taught to children in the south and stays with adults. I noticed that when I moved here 40 years ago and it is still prevalent, especially when speaking to strangers. It's considered having good manners.

I think it is very much generational. That isn't a put down at all to younger or older African Americans--only an observation that it is those over a certain age that exhibit this very overt politeness.

This summer, I'm going to be visiting Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

I'll try to keep statistics on how many people of what age and color address me as "Sir."

More diverse here. The "Sir" and "Ma'am" stuff is not as prevalent.

I will say that I pretty much always address older black men and women as "Sir" or "Ma'am" to show respect. Maybe that's a little racist on my part but I figure they've probably experienced a lot of nastiness from white people in their lives and I'm just trying to give them the respect they deserve.

and blacks equally. Don't get your feathers ruffled....there is NO southern conspiracy..but I do find it is more common amongst the middle aged and older. It's also regional...not everyone from the south does it, depends on their local customs. This is easily compared to be referred to as "hun" by folks from Baltimore...it's a regional custom.

I address people by Sir or Ma'am all the time. I'm white, I'm southern. It's called "Good Manners."

...and race notwithstanding. I am a Black male, 45 years old, born and reared in Philly who just finds it easier and more polite to do so. What would I call them otherwise? Buddy? Pal? Mac? Sister? Lady? Miss (which I occasionally use)?

If noone else does so, so what? I gotta do what I think is right, not what others think.

and I refer to almost everyone as "Sir" and "Ma'am".
I have also taught my son to do the same.
Also, he refers to my older female friends as "Miss Gloria", "Miss Vicky" etc.
I simply think that it's polite, respectful, and proper.

Ann Arbor

and noticed this myself. However, within a few months I had fallen into it. Never before in my life had I called anyone Sir or Ma'am (I'm a white girl from CA). White people do it too down South and I think it really is just that "Southern Hospitality" thing.
I live in Illinois now (where the usual endearment is "Hon") and continue to address folks as Sir and Ma'am - it's a nice additon to being polite, IMHO. :7

Blacks and whites down here do that. I call people "sir" and "ma'am" all the time. It has nothing to do with our respective stations in life. And I'm an affluent white woman. :shrug: We all do it: black, white, rich, poor.

Are you really so divorced from good manners? And I will add that A-A southerners add an extra layer of formality. You are expected to address them as "Mr xxxx" and "Mrs (or Ms)xxxx" "Drxxxxx " if they are MDs and academics. edit: this is for strangers and formal introductions, among friends, not so much.

It is a Southern thing...children are taught to do that. At least they used to be.

Quite a few whites down here use Sir & Ma'am. I do, myself, on occasion. And I use it on people of all colors--especially if they are a bit older.

I understand that your culture prevents you from addressing these people respectfully. But could you at least refrain from "correcting" them?

they're only being polite. Most southerners, mountaineers excluded, would behave in the same manner. What do you want them to say? "Get da f*** outta mah way, beeatch?" :rofl:

it catches me once and awhile too and I've lived in the South 15 years. My own feeling is that you initially give people the courtesy. PS the usage is so common it is not a subservience message as best I can tell. But I am just one person - I am curious about the responses you will get...

at a child when they forget to say it. It really negates everything else they are trying to say and it's hard to have a conversation with someone who is being screamed at for being impolite.

It doesn't mean we're shuffling our feet, head bowed, waiting for "massa's" approval. Its just common courtesy down here to say "sir" and "ma'am", "please" and "thank you".

Its a crying shame that basic manners has come to be viewed as unusual. Trust me, they know they don't have to call you sir, they do it because their parents taught them proper behavior.

Not much else to say....

Ann Arbor

I am from Massachusetts, and I am in my 40's. When I don't know someone's name, I often use Sir or Ma'am to address them. I'm in customer service, and I've just always believed that it's a term of respect for a fellow human being, whether I'm at work or not. What I don't do, is call a stranger by their first name, even when they are wearing the obligatory name tag. I find that patronizing. I don't address someone by their first name unless I know them personally. That's just how I was brought up. I recall many years ago visiting South Carolina and experiencing culture shock at how polite folks were, so I can relate to how you feel.

...but is almost a given for ex-military.....

It is not just blacks. I think it is just a Southern thing. I am a black who was born in one Southern state and raised in another Southern state. In some Southern states it is pretty mandatory for children of all races in school to say sir and or ma'am after any reply to a question. I am not trying to bash people from the North in that I have not been there, but would like to go. I am considering continuing my education in the North or the West. However, I think the South prides itself on the fact/idea that Southern children are raised to say sir and ma'am. I think that is part of what some people call Southern hospitality. In addition, it is not about saying sir or ma'am to white people. If you follow them they most likely will say it to all people. Even myself at this point I still say sir or ma'am after replies to questions. It does not matter if they are white, black, hispanic, or any other race. At different points people have told me I do not have to say it; however, if you were raised to do it and you did it all you life than it is automatic. I do not say sir or ma'am to people who are my own age or people younger than myself.

...something that doesn't seem to exist as you travel northeast of Pennsylvania.

What are people like you doing to people in Massachusetts that makes them seem to be so rude?

Why don't you skip the "blue state-red state" bull in your next post? That's a NeoCon invention designed to further divide Americans. I'm suprised so many DUers fall for that crap.

Born and raised here in the South and have never broken the habit.

I'm 51 years old and use "sir" and "ma'am" to both strangers and close friends. Also, I own a nightclub and make it a point to use sir with my male customers (regardless of age). The young men seem to really enjoy being called 'sir' by someone 30 years their senior.

Many people from the North and places outside the South do not use the sir or ma'am after replies to questions. However, in my experiences with people from the North they really are some of the nicest people you could meet. They seem to be polite and until recently I have not had very many Northern people ask why Southerners, especially blacks say sir or ma'am. It seems that in most cases the only surprise they have is when Southerners are not as polite as they expect.

I think there has been a recent movement by some that has probably come from a misunderstand of Sourthern ways and moreso from some major athletes attempts to link politeness and Southern ways with slavery as a way for them to get more money and have less restrictions on their life in sports. In recent years athletes have decided to use slavery and/or racism when they do not get their way in sports or do not get the money they want. I am not so angry about the racism talk, but if people at DU want to get angry and anyone maybe we should be getting angry at the athletes who get paid millions of dollars a year and then go running to cameras screaming about slavery and racism. I think that causes Northerners to question the politeness of the South more than Northerners not being polite themselves. Also, recently a book called the "Slave side of Sunday" in which the author compares the life of major athletes in football to slavery was published. I think some Notherners who mean well and have not had much experience with people from the South hear these things and read these books and then think that blacks in the South are still subservient and treated poorly. There are still some problems in that South that blacks who have not lived here all their lives might find hard to deal with, but blacks do realize they have rights.

from about 1865 - 1970....

Do you still have those old "colored" water fountains down there? I've lived in New England my whole life and I've never seen one.

How many African-Americans have you seen your whole New England life? If you want to ensure that your part of New England remains lily white, addressing African-Americans rudely is one good method!

If you want to go back to 1865-1970, why not go back a bit farther? Who captained the slavers? Weren't they the New Englanders who weren't out killing whales?

I can only speak for what I know. I say Sir & Ma'am when speaking to people my age or older--if I don't know their names. Their race is not a factor.

African Americans were 9% of the population, which is close to the national average.

I wonder if they would rather not be called "sir" or be forced in the back of the bus, kept out of the good schools, have religious symbols burned in their yards, called "boy" and "N*****", lynched, have to look at offensive flags flying on state property.


Oh, it's also cold here.

Jeez. Can you hear yourself?

the south treated black people so especially horribly for over 100 years and now they are lecturing people on politeness. That sounds wrong to me.

In fact, more black people than white people consider themselves Southern - so go figure.

but you can't deny that the south has had special problems with racism. Just recently in my constitutional law class, we went through the civil rights amendments, Btrown v. Board, etc. and the resistance to those decisions.

Maybe that's why I reacted so harshly

There was one sad story where a white OK university had been ordered by a court to admit a black student, and they stuck him in the coatroom during class, gave him his own table in the corner at the library, and made him eat by himself in the lunchroom.

Fortunately, the Supreme Court said that the university could not do this.

Then we read about literacy tests, then poll taxes, then white primaries...

How that does not piss any good progressive off I'll never know.

Yeah, that stuff pisses me off. But, again, I wasn't even BORN yet.

and that was not a commntary on your reaction, but rather a statement about mine. I was saying my reaction of being upset at the south was understandable when one studies the civil war and civil rights movement, as most of the action took place there.

I know that there are many great southerners and that the south is a much more tolerant place today, but I will not be lectured on politeness from a region with a history of such willful racism.

.... hmmmmm!

attacking freedom riders, Arresting Rosa Parks, Emmitt Till, the confederate flag shows up again during the civil rights movement.

I don't mean to start a pissing contest. I can accept that the north is racist too, why do you get so mad when someone points out the real historical problems of the south?

it continues on a much larger scale in the north.

go on...

the race problems that existed in the south, where many states had a full third of their populace that was minority and more. Of course their race relations were bitter. It's an issue of mass. BTW..I'm not from the south, but have in-laws who live there. It's ridiculous for you to think the north didn't have it's share of ugliness..just the mass of ugliness was smaller. We also had more social liberals in the urban centers...but once you left the urban comfort and wandered out to the suburbs....there was NO integration, there was ugly racism.

I think this post belongs in the Dumb Hall of Fame.

I find it ironic that the region of the country which had to be fought with by progressives everywhere tooth and nail for over 100 years before they would accept the concept of treating African Americans equally is now telling other people how to be polite.

I feel the same way when convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy tries to lecture Bill Clinton on morality.

that the region of the country that is supposedly liberal, progressive, tolerant, understanding, etc., has such vile and hatred toward another region of the country.

"the region of the country which had to be fought with by progressives everywhere tooth and nail for over 100 years before they would accept the concept of treating African Americans equally is now telling other people how to be polite."

Yes, because the North always has been a place where blacks were treated with equality and respect, ever since the founding of our Republic, and especially so since the Civil War.

The fundies say the same thing: "the liberals, who are oh so tolerant, are intolerant of our intolerance."

No, the north has not treated blacks with equality either, but where have the most egregious cases of racism occurred?

that the only effective argument that you can come up with is "You say what the fundies do!" despite using the same debate technique earlier.

"The school board implemented the integration plan in September 1974. Most schools integrated quietly. In South Boston, however, protestors "stoned buses, shouted racial epithets, hurled eggs and rotten tomatoes." Nine black South Boston High School students were injured when angry whites shattered the windows on their buses. Even elementary school students were not spared from the violence. Ellen Jackson, who ran a community center in Roxbury, described the scene as a bus of elementary school students returned home:

When the kids came, everybody just broke out in tears and started crying. The kids were crying. They had glass in their hair. They were scared. And they were shivering and crying. Talking about they wanted to go home. We tried to gently usher them into the auditorium. And wipe off the little bit of bruises that they had. Small bruises and the dirt. Picked the glass out of their hair.

The next day, Roxbury families formed an escort to accompany the children, and they did not experience any additional violence. Racial tensions, however, were still prevalent. On October 7th, a black man named André Yvon Jean-Louis was severely beaten when he drove into South Boston to pick up his wife, who worked in the neighborhood. Roxbury students reacted with "a wild rampage during which they stoned cars and attacked passing whites," forcing Governor Frank Sargent to call out the National Guard.

As the school year wore on, many white families planned a boycott of the public schools, sending their children to tutoring sessions at night, where public school teachers, college students, and prospective teachers volunteered to teach. Violence against the black students had not entirely disappeared either. One night, a prominent black leader received an anonymous phone call telling him not to send the black students to school the next day. Community leaders managed to intercept the buses just before they left for school, and the black children spent the day at the University of Massachussetts. It turned out that somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 people had been waiting for the buses in South Boston. Had the buses arrived, the protestors had planned to turn them over and burn them. Racial tensions continued to escalate, according to Phyllis Ellison, a black student at South Boston's high school:

On a normal day there would be anywhere between ten and fifteen fights. You could walk down the corridor and a black person would bump into a white person or vice versa. That would be one fight. And they'd try to separate us, because at that time there was so much tension in the school that one fight could just have the school dismissed for the entire day because it would just lead to another and another and another."

All in the "enlightened" city of Boston.

Just because the North didn't have laws called "Jim Crow" doesn't meant that there weren't "egregious" cases of racism there as well. Then again, I don't expect you to realize that, but rather continue in your smug, elitist ways of thinking because your parents happened to give birth to you in the northern U.S.

Just thought that needed to be reiterated.

there's a reason Barry Bonds called Boston "racist".

but at least the governor wasn't standing the doorway to the school.


A lot of it was racism, no doubt, but a lot of it could have been they wanted to go to their neighborhood school without people being forced in from other places.

Of course we don't have "those old 'colored' water fountains down" here.

And it's also 2006, not 1865-1870.

comprehension must not be your strong suit.

It's called a creative way of sending a message.

That we're all racist?

Nice coming from the guy who thinks black people don't live up north because it's "cold" or is that some sort of creative use of the word "cold"?

I don't think everyone in the south is racist, but I just don't like being lectured to on politeness by people who are famous for, at least in the past, being much less than polite to a certain segment of their population.

So I don't appreciate being judged by what a bunch of cotton farmers did over 100 years ago.

I was reacting to being told that people in the north are incapable of treating others politely.

I am the last person to hang a whole group on one of its members.

I'm sure you are very tolerant and polite. Some of the nicest people I have ever met were from Texas, of all places. but, Texas cannot all be like them, because they elect Bush and Tom DeLay.

forced to be polite. Pretty racist assumption, in my opinion. And that came from someone who doesn't live in the South.

behind it.

It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, I have a somewhat limited knowledge, but it seems that the South is very formalistic and rule driven in their culture, which explains their conservative bent.

This is an example, calling people "sir" and "ma'am." It also explains why racism was so prevalent. Conservatism is about the ordering of the world, everything in its place. Blacks were inferior to whites there (and pretty much everywhere), and in such a rule-driven culture, that was going to be especially highlighted. It also explains why many southerners are attracted to the military. Military life is especially regulated.


New England is very different. New Englanders are very individualistic. We will not go to your house with a cake when you move in. We see it as invading your privacy. New Englanders are very private and treat each other with respect by respecting how they choose to live their lives. People from other regions view this "leaving alone" as rude, which is understandable.

or herd them into crappy neighborhoods so you don't have to see them? saves the money on the water fountains.

people just live where they want to live I guess, or at least I hope that's the case.

Do you have any other incidents, I'm bored of talking about the bus riots of the 70's already?

We say yes 'sir/no sir' and 'yes m'am/no m'am' in addition to 'please' and 'thank you.' This is the way most everyone here speaks. We are expected to be especially polite to those persons older than ourselves. My own momma reprimended me for NOT saying these things. An ocassional spanking was delivered for our (me and my siblings) lack of politeness and courtesy. My dad was a doctor. When I was little, I called every man I met Dr. so and so: I thought everyone was addressed that way because all of my dad's close male friends as well as my uncle were doctors too!

It's not a racial or a class thing. Our younger generation may not be as uniformly polite as more outsiders move into the South. However, among born and bred Southerners of all races, politiness and courtesy is very important.

Come on down and experience our Southern hospitality! :hi:

not a black-white thing. Personally I hate it!

What is the nature of your reaction? Just wondering, not challenging.

style over substance. As in the example I gave above - I've experienced many instances where I'm conversing with a child whose parent is hanging over his or her shoulder screaming, "Yes, MA"AM" after every affirmative answer the child gives me or "No, MA'AM" after evey negative one, which, in my opinion, is MUCH ruder than the child answering a question I asked him without a qualifier like "ma'am".

I'm a Chicagoan all my life but I sir and ma'am everyone (except younger women - they hate it because they think it makes them old). It makes life much easier. It also makes people happy.

conversation. Just as long as things are easy and makes everyone SEEM happy!

You miss my point - I think it's RUDE to interupt people, no matter the age difference, who are having a conversation. That doesn't make me very happy.

Young to old, untitled to titled, etc. If respect is the goal, I would prefer someone introducing themselves, if they don't know me. and refer to me as Mrs K, as opposed to mam. That just sits better with me.

.....wish we had a few polite people of African/American decent.

Is this a matter of perception? Or are they reacting to your attitude?

Thanks for the info!

Geez,
where is this thread going?

Ann Arbor

Its cultural. No wonder we are considered unfriendly in the east in comparison.

approaching 40!

and it's respectful to stay out of other people's business.

getting into their business again?

but its indicative of our culture, that people should use whatever reasonable means to address someone they wish.

We call everyone sir or ma'am. I call my Dad "Sir." If a woman is my age or younder, she is "miss," all other women are "ma'am," and men are "sir" with the exception of my husband and brother. I am only 23 and expect to be called ma'am by younger girls. Just the way it is.

when not in a professional situation by a younger person. They'd see it as a sign that they were perceived as old.

It's an amusing show, but I doubt that all Northern women are that shallow.

its a cultural difference.

I have realized that the divisions in this country politically represent a sharp cultural division, of which this is probably a very small part.

in the fall and expect to be called ma'am by my students.

different ballgame

I'm white and I use the word sir all the time. I figure its the polite way to address someone. I dont think anyone up here in New England has done anything to me to make me this way but I could be wrong.
I really enjoy the response I get for all this politeness. People are actually nice to me and are polite in return. I also find being polite opens doors for me and provides opportunities I'd otherwise miss out on.
I hope I wasnt damaged or something. After all greeting someone as "asshole" or "dickhead" would probably be a bit more fun, but something deep in my psyche stops me from doing this.
Damn those north east liberal mind fuckers for making me so nice.

or hear them addressed. Usually, where sir would be, there is nothing. You'd say "excuse me" or whatever and that's it.

Yes, there is a tendency for Southerners, black and white, to be more polite. At first I found it amusing, but guess what, it grows on you. I certainly use Sir and Ma'mam a whole lot more than I did in my life in Baltimore. It's OK, it's respect.

I did note something of a double standard. I started working for a family owned retail business some 18 years ago and saw that while black customers were treated decently they were often not granted such honorifics as Sir and Mister. Black men were often addressed in the diminutive, Bobby, Billy, etc as compared to whites. Now this might just be familarity but I don't think that's entirely the case. Old habits die hard.

I have made it a point in my wretched life in retail to make use of this southern politeness in addressing all of my customers. I think the older folks in particular appreciate it.

that shining beacon of de facto segregation and closet racism. where they don't have to call every white guy they meet "sir" because all the white guys moved them to ghettos so they wouldn't have to see them at all.

When I volunteered down in Mississippi in January, I was surprised at how often the local staff and the people who came for help (of all races) called me "ma'am."

think that our (Southerners) being polite by saying "yes sir/no sir" and "yes m'am/no m'am" is being rude? :eyes:

Sometimes, being polite is nothing more than being polite. :)

Why does no one ever ask an absurd question like "Why are all Northerners rude?" (Don't flame me: I know it's not true.)

the north is less formalistic, we see "sir" and "ma'am" as outdated in everyday application. Same thing with calling people Mr./Mrs./Miss XXXXX.

We use sir, maam, Mr., Ms., (not Miss or Mrs. unless they seem to prefer it) only in professional situations or when we get mad at each other. (I tend to hear "sir" between two everyday strangers when one is upsetting the other "Excuse me "sir", I was in line here.") If someone has an earned title (Dr. Rep. Gov. Sen.) then people will use that and the last name.

Otherwise, people generally call each other by their first names unless they clearly prefer to be called another way. I worked for the CT state house and some of the state reps will be called by their first names, while a few insist on Rep. XXX.


If southerners want to use sir, it'll be weird to us, but that's who you are.

Here in the South, we always say Miss, Ms., Mr., or Mrs. so and so. We never use a first name for those people older than ourselves, strangers or those people who have titles such as Doctor or Professor UNLESS that person indicates that we should do so. With my clients, I always use sir and ma'am and I refer to them as Mr., Mrs. and Miss/Ms until they indicate otherwise or until we develop a friendly, more informal business relationship.

I remember, as a little kid, having a friend who called her parents by their first names. I was SHOCKED, shocked I tell you! (This was about 1972 and the kid had hippie parents.) I had never,ever heard of such a thing in my entire, young life.

To this day, I address all of the my aunts and uncles by saying "Hi Aunt Sue" or Thank you "Uncle Sam."

the practice of calling your own parents by their first names, at any stage of life, is really rare in New England as well. In fact I had never heard of it until I saw it in "Son In Law" that movie with Pauly Shore.

Also, if you are in a professional relationship, you call people Mr./Ms. etc until they say ohterwise. It is different with just two people on the street however.

People are just being polite. But there is one thing that irks me when 20 year olds call me m'am. I hate that. I know their parents taught them to respect their elders but their parents should have told them not to say it to women and men that aren't considered spring chickens anymore yet not very old. :P My niece's fiance' calls me m'am all the time, I told him he doesn't have to call me that and to call me by my first name but he continues to do it anyway. Grrrrr. :-)

at a Waffle House near Talladega, Alabama! Isn't that funny that I remember that? I was with my dad. :)

I was recently called ma'am by one of my husabnd's young co-workers! Funny thing was is that we were at a music club where Mr. CB's rock band was playing! LOL!

edit: It's very nice that the fiance is so polite! ;)

that the prejudice foreigners have against Americans are justified.

If South and North are going to call each other names over this thread, it certainly should bring all of us pause.

And if you ain't into that we don't give a damn.

-- Hank Williams, Jr.

It's called etiquette.

Bake

offended by the original question. It is true that it is a Southern thing to address others as sir or mam, Miss Betty etc that's how we were raised. It's a respect thing...all customs that are old are not always bad....

I think that I would rather have someone ask the question rather than walk around in oblivious ignorance. Everyone seems to be attacking IanDB1 for asking the question...To ask a question takes guts...especially a question of race.

As Liberals and whatever other category we all fall in...we believe that to be introspective of ones beliefs and to question issues that are confusing to us.. don't we consider that a good thing?

I would rather someone who is white ask me to my face about my black hair, my black culture and my thoughts than have them harbor many ill-conceived beliefs.

By attacking IanDB1 there are probably 10,20 + who have questions about other races, gays etc who won't ask those questions that are tucked away in their minds because they don't want to be attacked for asking a question...Remember no question is a bad question!!!

That's all!!

This has turned into a flame-war concerned with "region-bashing" and worse....