Another bad day for the DLC...and the hits keep on coming...

Only two days after the disastrous primary elections which saw progressive candidates defeat DLC candidates straight across America, comes word that Congressman Jack Murtha will run for the House Majority Leader position should we Democrats win back the House in November. Now on another post many DUers thought that Murtha was challenging Nancy Pelosi, this is incorrect. If the Democrats should win the November midterm elections, Pelosi will become Speaker of the House, thus creating a vacancy for House Leader. Murtha will run to fill that vacancy. But why is that bad for the DLC? Because the DLC point man in the House, Steny Hoyer, is running for that same position.

You may remember that Steny Hoyer is the Democrat who cut Pelosi off at the knees after she gave a press conference last year calling on George W. Bush to pull out the troops. Hoyer called a separate competing press conference the next day arguing that he thought the troops should stay, and then proceeded to regurgitate some Republican talking points on the war. It was rumored even that Hoyer planned to overthrow Pelosi as leader, or challenge her for the Speakership, should we win the midterms. This is why I think Pelosi, in a move of brilliant daring, preempted him and convinced Murtha to run against Hoyer.

This leaves Hoyer and the DLC in a precarious position within the Democratic House leadership. If Hoyer should continue his campaign for House Majority Leader and lose, he will have given up his position as Democratic Whip and another election will have to be called to fill that position(hint: there are more progressives in the House than DLCers, and all other conservative Dems combined). Which means there is a possibility, a good one at that, that the Progressives will control the top three leadership positions within the House after the midterm elections (not to mention how many committee chairpersons we'll have).

Things are getting curiouser and curiouser...

* If you enjoyed reading this post, recommend it so it will make the front page *

:)

and i hope you are correct, but there's a lot of time left before November, and the MSM has yet to pick sides (you know which one they'll choose). Keep up the faith though, this breakdown sounds good to me! Murtha as HML, I like it.

Let's see if the Republican's can continue to bash his military record when he controls the microphone :D

If the DieLikeCowards sect is being exposed for the Republican Lite 'tell me which way the wind is blowing'
bunch that they really are then yes, I REALLY enjoyed reading this post.
:kick:

DLC Peddles Right-Wing Talking Points; Christian Coalition Official in DLC

In order to succeed with his plan for the reform of the Democratic Party, Governor Dean faces the stalwart opposition of Mr. From and his neoconservative cronies at the DLC and many powerful Democratic office holders as well, who are still under their sway. These neoconservative Democrats include: Governor Tom Vilsack, Senator Evan Bayh, Senator Joe Biden and Senator Hillary Clinton.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html

"Strong antiwar comments in recent days by House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean have opened anew a party rift over Iraq, with some lawmakers warning that the leaders' rhetorical blasts could harm efforts to win control of Congress next year.

Several Democrats joined President Bush yesterday in rebuking Dean's declaration to a San Antonio radio station Monday that "the idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong."

The critics said that comment could reinforce popular perceptions that the party is weak on military matters and divert attention from the president's growing political problems on the war and other issues. "Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful," said Rep. Jim Marshall (D-Ga.), recalling Dean's famous election-night roar after stumbling in Iowa during his 2004 presidential bid.

Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the second-ranking House Democratic leader, have told colleagues that Pelosi's recent endorsement of a speedy withdrawal, combined with her claim that more than half of House Democrats support her position, could backfire on the party, congressional sources said."

They do not want to leave Iraq, I fear.

It's just that now the votes are piling up on the "Get Out of Iraq NOW!" side. Pretty soon, even the DLC and Hillary will be able to read the writing on the wall.

I'm betting a nickel that Hillary is too stupid to switch to the side of peace. Any takers?

Now onto trying to turn what is now into a majority, especially in the House.

I admire that a lot.

before you search too hard:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2670815

rates with the Progressive Dems in voting record. I'm sure he's more conservative there, also.

He's more conservative than Hoyer. There's plenty of days Nancy Pelosi is called DLC. One of these days people are going to get that it's primarily about voting districts and re-election, not insider-outsider, DLC bullshit. If we want to win, we have to change the way we talk about the things that matter. Note "the way" we talk about, not what we believe.

Good thinking, well written. Thanks.

H.R. 3295. We really do need new leadership.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I may be able to sleep tonight. Thank you for this post.

as far as dems go. If Murtha fans here think he is very progressive, they haven't looked into his record beyond Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html

"Strong antiwar comments in recent days by House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean have opened anew a party rift over Iraq, with some lawmakers warning that the leaders' rhetorical blasts could harm efforts to win control of Congress next year.

Several Democrats joined President Bush yesterday in rebuking Dean's declaration to a San Antonio radio station Monday that "the idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong."

The critics said that comment could reinforce popular perceptions that the party is weak on military matters and divert attention from the president's growing political problems on the war and other issues. "Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful," said Rep. Jim Marshall (D-Ga.), recalling Dean's famous election-night roar after stumbling in Iowa during his 2004 presidential bid.

Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the second-ranking House Democratic leader, have told colleagues that Pelosi's recent endorsement of a speedy withdrawal, combined with her claim that more than half of House Democrats support her position, could backfire on the party, congressional sources said."

They don't want to stand up about getting out of Iraq. That is the difference right now..the honesty to speak out and not be afraid when things are going terribly wrong. Murtha is doing that, that is the difference.

I contrasted it with Representative Hoyer--his most likely opponent for Majority Leader. Then I contrasted it with two DLC Senators; Sen. Sen. Lieberman and Sen. Clinton. Then below that-for contrast I had the interest group ratings for the Sen. McCain and Sen. Allen, arguably the two most likely Republican nominees for President in 2008

First is Peace Majority – a compilation of scores from a number of different peace groups – see website:

http://www.peacemajority.org/scorecard /

Representative John Murtha: Final Score: 34.0/121.0 votes=28%

Representative Steny Hoyer: Final Score: 44.0/120.0 votes=37%

Sen. Hillary Clinton: Final Score: 59.0/98.0 votes=60%

Sen. Joseph Lieberman: Final Score: 15.0/62.0 votes=24%

Sen. George Allen: Final Score: 4.0/98.0 votes= 4%

Sen. John McCain: Final Score: 4.0/95.0 votes= 4%
__________________________________________

This is courtesy of project vote smart - link:

(The scores for Rep. Hoyer and Rep. Murtha are mostly for 2005. The scores for Senators; Clinton, Lieberman, Allen, and McCain are mostly for 2004--I regret that I did not have time yet to update these scores. I will in the near future and post the updated scores. If you wish to see the latest scores for any member of the Senate or the House click on the link below and put the name in the search box then click on "interest groups")

http://www.vote-smart.org/index.htm
___________________

2004 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 33 percent in 2004

2004 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 67 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 33 percent in 2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 67 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 0 percent in 2004.
_________________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the Peace Action 50 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the Peace Action 50 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the Peace Action 38 percent in 2004

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Peace Action 75 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the Peace Action 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Peace Action 13 percent in 2004.
______________________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 0 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League 100 percent in 2004

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League 100 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League 0 percent in 2004

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League 0 percent in 2004.
_________________________________________________

2003-2004 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 44 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 80 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 83 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 78 percent in 2003-2004

2003-2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 0 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 22 percent in 2003-2004.
_____________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 75 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 95 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 75 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 95 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 15 percent in 2004..

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 35 percent in 2004.
_________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 100 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 100 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 83 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 100 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 17 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 33 percent in 2004.
_________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 86 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 100 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 92 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 110 percent in 2004

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 9 percent in 2004

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 9 percent in 2004.
_________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

2003-2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the National Education Association 88 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 85 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the National Education Association 25 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the National Education Association 35 percent in 2003-2004.
_____________________

2003-2004 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 17 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 100 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 88 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 88 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 13 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 25 percent in 2003-2004.
_____________________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

2003-2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 95 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2003-2004

2003-2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 7 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 14 percent in 2003-2004.
____________________________

2004 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the Arab American Institute 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the Arab American Institute 33 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the Arab American Institute 50 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Arab American Institute 25 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the Arab American Institute 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Arab American Institute 0 percent in 2004.
_________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 56 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 83 percent in 2005.

2003-2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 56 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 92 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 0 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 56 percent in 2003-2004
____________________________

2004 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 53 percent in 2004.

2004 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 15 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 100 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 83 percent in 2004.
____________________________

2005 Representative Murtha supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 40 percent in 2005.

2005 Representative Hoyer supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 12 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator Lieberman supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 0 percent in 2004..

2004 Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 0 percent in 2004

2004 Senator Allen supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 92 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 72 percent in 2004.”

I'll never understand....how can Murtha stand up for civil rights, yet in the same breathe, deny a woman the right to decide her destiny? Does it really come down to the fact that women have no civil rights?

These old white men really need to open their eyes to the fact that our planet cannot withstand many more people. Why would they want unwanted children coming into this world?

Sexism is the last ism, I think.

Absolutely! Sex is the division of our species. It will be the hardest to overcome.


"Six billion miracles is enough." -bumper sticker

moderate.

It means you kiss corporations' asses.

Therefore, Murtha could be a moderately conservative Democrat and NOT be DLC.

:kick:

and not people who play political games....

The DLC keeps unimpressing me over and over again.

Go Murtha.

I'd expect that, to the extent Repubs tampered with Dem primaries, they usually weighted results toward the MOST progressive candidates. What sweet revenge it would be if those most-progressives actually end up winning by margins too great to credibly steal!

When is a Diebold machine say "uncle"? After eating 100 votes? 100,000? A million? A billion? What's credible? That W won after all exit polls showed kerry ahead in all states, among men and among women?
Whose credibility(gulibility) are we using as measuring stick here?


Next meme: "we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here..."

Past election were stolen by what, 2, 3, 4%?
I'd say 10% sure should prove difficult to steal AND get away with.

levels. In Ohio, they(GOP) just jacked the per precinct cost to make it harder for grassroots to pay for recounts AND now disallowed contesting Fed elctions (HB 3)

Plausibility is an oxymoron in this society that believes that a desertor was elected over a war hero because - huh - we're in time of war. There's no limit to the shit people can believe.

this was published in NYT BEFORE the election:

''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And
while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll
act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and
that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you,
all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
Bush aide to Ron Suskind

more accurately then i could have:

"They steal them under a margin of suspicion and below auto recount levels. In Ohio, they(GOP) just jacked the per precinct cost to make it harder for grassroots to pay for recounts AND now disallowed contesting Fed elections (HB 3)"

They don't want suspicion and they sure don't want an actual recount. The two are related: suspicion will give rise to demand for recount. Recounting has been made more difficult in certain places, which increases the margin. Although there's no telling what will happen if the theft is to obvious, and no recount is possible because of the changing of the rules.

My guess is that if exit polls say 5% win for a Dem candidate, and results are 5% for a Repub candidate - in other words, a 10% swing - that people won't stand for it. Of course that percentage is just an estimate.
Another scenario is that exit polls will be rigged to. Then it's still possible that people will figure it out if it's stolen, by word-of-mouth.
Imagine the hypothetical extreme case of 51% swing: no-one actually voted for the Repub, but he still gets 51%. Then certainly people will know. All i'm saying is, there is a limit to how much they can steal and get away with, even though it's hard to say exactly how much that limit is.

between the polls - results - actually a total of 30% as they reversed the original difference. No exit polls that I'd know of as VNS junked (there were "discrepancies")
It was obvious enough - as it was in Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004 (Florida 2004 as well). No matter how sloppy their crimes are, people will go on with their lives not even caring they were robbed. What makes you think there was never more than 5%? How would you know the real numbers? 5% OF WHAT?????

I didn't know there was that much of a swing in some places. I suppose it would become an issue only if there is that large a difference in many districts.

He's pro-school prayer, anti-reproductive choice and SPONSORED an anti-flag burning Consittutional amendment (with Duke cunningham, no less).

Guess the anti-DLCers are REALLY getting desperate.

John Murtha is the cause Celeb of the week...well at least until he says something that people here hate, then he'll be a Dem hating DINO.
At some point, Murtha will join the ranks of Lou Dobbs (Remember the 'We love Lou' posts about two months ago), the back-and-forth over Sen. Obama for the last year-and-a-half, and others. (IMO)

To be honest: I'm not a fan of the DLC, but I don't think Murtha is going to make most DUers very happy. As far as I can tell, with the exception of Iraq, his positions on most issues are not much different than Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska. I'm not knocking Ben, but if you ask most people here they'd be less than thrilled with Ben as Leader of anything in the Party.

But you fail to see Murtha's appeal. He's definitley not DLC and Hoyer definitely is. Murtha is definitely against the war in Iraq, and Hoyer definitely isn't (this issue is still fairly important to many people). This will undermine the DLC even more in the House, and we'll get someone we agree with on the war.

P.S. There was something else this week that happened to the DLC that I forgot to mention. Rep. William Jefferson, a total DLCer, was accused of keeping $90,000 (which are suspected of being bribes) in his freezer. He has been asked to leave the high-profile and very important Ways and Means Committee.

the hate for Democrats endures....

"As far as I can tell, with the exception of Iraq, his positions on most issues are not much different than Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska."
You're exactly right....

Because I thought there may be more issues at stake here? I don't know how many people died from not being able to desecrate our flag, but thousands have perished or been severly injured for this fucking war. Murtha is the most credible voice of opposition to this war. If any other anti-war congressman calls for redeployment no one bats an eye, but Jack Murtha gets primetime coverage.

If you take the sum total of Murtha's efforts and acheivments, I'm proud to have grown up with him as my congressman. Go bake a pie with those cherries.

with Duke Cunningham, no less.

If you want to pretend he's not a right winger, it's no skin off my nose.

and always talks about how Bush is so wonderful..

Steny Hoyer is the more liberal of the two for godsakes. But I'm glad many of you are so supportive of my fellow pro-guns, pro-life, internationally hawkish Blue Dog.

right. I know some DUer's don't want to hear it, but look at the polls and at the CA 50 race, for example. Busby lost on immigration and Bilbray won on it. Yes, there are many arguments to the contrary, but if there was ever a time a Dem should have won, this was it.

In case you haven't seen it, here's the recent ZOGBY poll on immigration:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/2006poll.html

I just think we have the cart before the horse talking about leadership of a House Dems won't win without addressing the will of their constituents on immigration. Anyone who thinks people won't vote on this issue isn't paying attention. There are a number of informative, current DU threads with views on several sides of the issue, so I won't go into that here, except to say that the middle class is upset about illegal immigration, and if Dems keep pretending this is a "manufactured wedge issue" or a "racism" issue, we will lose seats in 2006 and 2008. This issue isn't going away, and I for one would like to see Dems win on it rather than lose on it. Bracing for the usual "racist, xenophobe" attacks....

Murtha is Joe-mentum with an anti-war bent.

As the Democrats again go blindly into November with their heads in the sand concerning republican owned (and very easily hackable)electronic voting machines, that can change election results in favor of the republican candidate in a heartbeat... without any way to deny or confirm the announced results.

As usual the Dem's are leading us down the same old path of hope, as the republican owned machines will again steal and steal and continue to steal in order to keep their republican majority, and the fucking Dem's have yet to address or even acknowledge that there is indeed a huge problem with the machines and the final ANNOUNCED election results.

Steal the election, announce it (with no way to check the actual votes) and the republican is accepted as the winner (after all they own the machines, Diebold & ES&S) and the republicans own the media, to blare the unconfirmable announcements as the truth.