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TriSec Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:32 AM
Original message
Libertarian Saturday
Good Morning, DU! I usually post my missive over at Air America Place, which I did do this morning...but I thought I'd give a try cross-posting over here. Let me know what you think...



Good Morning!

If it's Saturday, it must be raining! Another gray and dreary day greets the Northeast corner of the blog. Let's get right to it, shall we?

Since Al Gore's film, "An Incovenient Truth" is being labelled a 'liberal' movie by the right, I wonder what they would make of a libertarian film? "From Freedom to Fascism" is being called 'the scariest film you'll see this year'...

Aaron Russo's sizzling new documentary "America: Freedom to Fascism" received this rave review from CBS's Todd David Schwartz:

"FOUR STARS (Highest Rating): The scariest goddamn film you'll see this year. It will leave you staggering out of the theatre, slack-jawed and trembling. Makes 'Fahrenheit 9/11' look like 'Bambi.' After watching this movie, your comfy, secure notions about America -- and about what it means to be an American -- will be forever shattered.

Producer/director Aaron Russo and the folks at Cinema Libre Studio deserve to be heralded as heroes of a post-modern New American Revolution. This is shocking stuff. You'll be angry, you'll be disgusted, but you may actually break out in a cold sweat and feel a sickness deep in your gut; I would advise movie theatre managers to hand out vomit bags. You may end up needing one."





Ah, and speaking of fascism, let's see how our "Anschluss" with Iraq is going...there's a really big base there...and it doesn't appear that we'll be leaving anytime soon.

"In an annual security conference on Saturday (June 3), Donald Rumsfeld assured the audience, 'We don't intend to occupy for any period of time. Our troops would like to go home and they will go home.'

Why, then, would the United States be building an enormous embassy in Baghdad and a base so large it eclipses Kosovo's Camp Bondsteel, which had been the largest foreign U.S. military base built since Vietnam? The new embassy, which occupies a space two-thirds the area of the national mall in Washington DC, comprises 21 buildings that will house over 8,000 government officials.

It has a huge pool, gym, theater, beauty salon, school, and six apartment buildings. The gargantuan military base, Camp Anaconda, occupies 15 square miles of Iraqi soil near Balad. The base is home to 20,000 soldiers and thousands of 'contractors'.

The aircraft runway at Anaconda is the second-busiest in the world, behind only Chicago's O'Hare airport. And, depending on which report you read, between six and fourteen more U.S. military bases are under construction in Iraq. It doesn't appear we'll be leaving anytime soon -- or anytime, really." --
Marjorie Cohn, Truthout.





Lastly, in our "Why aren't YOU a Libertarian?" segment...let's take a look at the issue of job-loss overseas, and how things might be different in a Libertarian society...thanks as always to "Ask Dr. Ruwart".

QUESTION:
"In an economy without any 'trade barriers,' where the market can be flooded by less expensive imported goods at a price our domestic manufacturers cannot hope to compete with, what is going to stop domestic jobs from rapidly going overseas to cheap-labor countries?"

MY SHORT ANSWER:
"Some jobs will indeed go overseas, but here we'll experience a net *gain* in the number of jobs and the wages we're paid. Everyone wins. Here's how it works.

"Let's assume that cheap-labor countries can manufacture and ship clothes to us more economically than our domestic industry. Our clothing bill goes down, leaving us more money to buy something else, say, computers. More high-tech, high-paying jobs are created here to meet the increased demand. We'll experience a net gain in jobs, because our human capital is more efficiently allocated. Uneducated cheap labor is manufacturing, and skilled technical labor is innovating.

"Of course, the domestic clothing workers will experience some trauma as they scramble to find new positions. Most will end up in jobs that are more interesting and demanding as our work force as a whole shifts to become more technical. Like the rest of the country, they will benefit from the lower clothing prices and the higher standard of living made possible by the
more efficient division of labor.

"Countries that 'protect' inefficient industries with trade barriers keep consumer prices high and prosperity lower than it otherwise would be. In the U.S., for example, we pay more for automobiles than we would if tariffs on imports were abolished. Every extra dollar we spend on automobiles is one less for the computer and other domestic industries that compete well in the international markets. Tariffs put our market leaders at risk to preserve inefficiency. Ultimately, everyone -- even the automobile workers -- lose by higher prices and the lower standard of living."




So, there we go....and since I'll be indoors all day bouncing off the walls with a 5 year old...please come and keep me company.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wonder why this isn't on "Libertarian Underground"?
Do we really have to have somebody pimping for a third party ON Democratic Underground?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. what's wrong with an open exchange of ideas?
When I first came to DU 5 years ago, that's what it was all about. :hi:

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You want to join a third party? Be my guest....
You're welcome to the movement that claims John Stossel and Neal Boortz as its "leaders."
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm an indenpendent.
thanks, though. :hi:
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ProgressivePatriot Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Independents
.............fence sitters without the nerve to make a stand....don't ya think?
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Not necessarily
On the thread where I'm trying to debate ideologies (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2670306&mesg_id=2671002), someone brought up political pragmatism. I noted that:

"To get from point a to point b we have to know where we are (that much is pretty clear), where we want to go, and then figure out how to get there. Pragmatism is the third part, I'm working on the second."

With a political debate which is bereft of any political depth and driven by talkingpoint issues, and where a significant portion of the electorate probably feels unrepresented (social libertarians, certainly), fence-sitting is not necessarily cowardly.

BTW, take the test: http://politicalcompass.jpagel.net/

Are YOU represented?:shrug:
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I'm not a fence sitter... I just prefer to look at each issue and make my
own decision.

The politics of Party, which are institutionalized, don't benefit We, the People, IMO.

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TriSec Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. So, it's "Big-D" Democratic Underground?
I'm an Independent...always have been. Sure, I often voted straight-ticket Democrat, but not so in recent years. So, additional liberal points of view don't fly if we're not "Democrat"?




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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hi TriSec, thanks for the post
and welcome to DU! :hi:

I'm libertarian leaning myself, so it's always nice to see others :-)
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Libertarians
I most definitely lean libertarian... but not in the American sense. Somehow a progressive, left-wing concept (the basis of anarchism, no less) has been perverted into a conservative ideology over there. I am a SOCIAL Libertarian.

I strongly suggest taking the "political compass" test; http://politicalcompass.jpagel.net/

From my experience the immense majority of "progressives" that I've run into on the net fall into the lower-left quadrant which corresponds to "social libertarians". Yet we are singularly unrepresented by any political party anywhere, and only in France and Spain is there at least a trade union movement that corresponds to this ideal (CNT/AIT, anarchist, and thus a rather extreme version of social libertarianism). The most "liberal" of "liberals" in the US political compass is hardly removed from the most conservative of conservatives - all major US politicians fall into the upper-right quadrant.

I'd wager that if DU progressives took the test, most would be considered "social libertarians". And thus the seemingly eternal debate about the DLC and just how mal-represented we are by our elected officials. I am trying to elicit a debate on ideology on another thread (thus far I've started off the thread with some comments on economics), and risking being called on my bad netiquette, here's the link if you're interested: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2670306#2670929
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TriSec Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Took the test....
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15

Lower left quadrant...a little to the right of Gandhi. O8)
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Toldja so!
As I said, virtually every "lib" I've come across falls into that area. Did you notice where our politicians fall? NOT A ONE is in "our quadrant".

Thus the need to re-invent the DNC, IMHO.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. I'm in roughly the same spot
I'll have to take it again to be sure, but I remember being in that same quadrant.

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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. Well....
For starters, progressives and libertarians (and needless to say, the social libertarians that abound but are not represented) tend to agree with regards to foreign policy. Cato's take on Iraq or even the 1st Gulf War are practically progressive.

Where I STRENUOUSLY disagree with your post is the last section on economics. Needless to say it is flawed and is a chain of logical fallacies with little support outside wishful thinking. There's a major leap of faith here - that well-paying jobs will be replaced by other well-paying jobs. It is equally likely that the "new" jobs that will supposedly replace the old ones lost to globalization... will also be outsourced at the 1st opportunity. In the meantime, the loss of well-paying jobs can only impact the national economy negatively as consumers will be less capable of consuming.

The ""Ask Dr. Ruwart"" c&p seems to be perfectly in accordance with Mt Pellerin neoliberal economics, AKA trickledown. Sorry - been there, done that, seen the results and throw it in the garbage.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. agreed, but the 'freedom to fasism' review was good
I don't buy that economic policy stuff, either. Too close to what we've got today.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I wouldn't know
I haven't seen the film. But something in the web (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/) popped up which rubbed me wrong:

"I think the discrepancy in treatment between U.S and German health-care providers is directly related to the interference in Americans' healthcare system by the FDA. Which we all know ties into the theme of AMERICA: FREEDOM TO FASCISM."

Sorry, this is baloney. The German system is even more regulated than the US one. The fellow's obviously an economic neolib ideologue. And politically he sees the same results that many progressives see, but places the blame on different areas.
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TriSec Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. That depends...
I work in Healthcare Administration...we are the most heavily regulated industry in the world. Germany may regulate the medical side more than us, but when it comes to paperwork, the US has the market cornered.

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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Paperwork?
How much is official, how much from insurance companies, how much from pharma, how much from the AMA...

FWIW I strongly believe in national healthcare. I live in Spain and used to pay for a private insurance - I no longer see the need.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Hmmm
I searched for the film on the Cannes Festival web - and found nothing, not even "Aaron Russo". So while the film might have premiered at Cannes, the promotors seem to be misleading people into believing that it was part of the festival.

Kinda cheap, no? That's like doing a sidewalk play on Broadway and saying, during an audition, that "I've been working on a Broadway show".
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. yeah - I'm over the Voodoo Economics crowd
I consider myself a lower-case "l" libertarian in that I believe in having social freedoms across the board - what come call a social libertarian. My father is a capital "L" Libertarian, and he has the most screwed up ideas about money in my opinion.

For one thing, he thinks a place that is unregulated with labor and tax laws will have more freedom, without realizing that when he was working for a living (he's now retired) those same laws protected him more ways than he knew. When I ask him about child labor and weekends, and such, he doesn't know what to say.

Also, if his house catches on fire, would he call the evil fire department? He thinks that services such as police and fire should be private and go to the highest bidder. Newsflash: that's been tried and it turns into an even more fascist Might Makes Right society. If you can afford better a protection racket you get more rights? Bullshit.

Not to mention that ever Libertarian I know has grown up with a HUGE safety net, yet claims to be self-made. His parents totally bailed his ass out when his 2nd wife left him (and screwed him over) and he had to declare bankruptcy. Yet he sees no hypocrisy in either forms of help when he needed it. Fuck a bunch of right wing Libertarians. No offense, but they can eat my ass. I've heard all of the arguments, and if they truly feel they are being ripped off by the society which supports them, they're crazy. Good luck being a self-made man without the myriad of public services which help you and your business, from roads to police to fire departments to labor laws, etc. Or maybe you want to build your own roads and methods of marketing communication? Hell, I don't know.


For the O.P. - feel free to post here. I enjoy hearing other viewpoints, but I will argue against them.
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ProgressivePatriot Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. Wow....I need more coffee.....
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 09:37 AM by ProgressivePatriot
before I can read way far-out 'stuff' like this.

Libbercons are just another form of the republiscum. Their intent varies slightly from the scum but, the destruction of the American ideal is their goal.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
22. Locking
From the rules of the site:

"Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates."
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