Our Big Fat False Dichotomy: Political Organizing vs. Electoral Fraud

An interesting Talk To Action article on the importance of BOTH stopping election fraud and gearing up political grassroots organizing.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/6/16/161524/140

<snip>That case can be overstated, certainly, but it gets at a certain core truth : to the extent we expend energy worried about and scrutinizing our foes we will fail to organize, build, and expand our own base of power.<snip>

Palast's story is one of many to emerge since the 2004 election that reinforce the case that electoral fraud may have decided the 2004 election. But, I've seen attempts at political organizing on the left derailed by those who have derived a basically nihilistic, or disempowering, lesson. These are the ones who shout out : "It doesn't matter ! Organizing is pointless ! It's all rigged anyway !". They shout that line - in anger or desparation - and others start to bicker. Many get depressed and eventually just go home.<snip>

Was there electoral fraud in Ohio in 2004 ? Probably. Will there be fraud in 2006 ? We have to assume the GOP will try. But that does not make the efforts of Rod Parsley, as described by Talk To Action contributor Tanya Erzen, below, in Reformation America", shouldn't be countered in the way that We Believe Ohio seeks to do : old fashioned political organizing.<snip>

About the Diebold software problem, which is the biggie. As long as they stay in DENIAL, we keep losing. I'd like to tell you I have some idea WTF they're doing, but I don't.

Show me one case of anyone that shouts: "It doesn't matter ! Organizing is pointless ! It's all rigged anyway!".

Show me one case of an Election Reform DUer saying that. Just one. Or a serious organizer outside of DU.

This is simply a false argument by the stupid ass Dems who won't face the truth that the elections were stolen. It is their way of ducking the subject all together, the chicken shits.

I don't know if the ones saying this are "Election Reform DUers" or not. Perhaps they don't meet your carefully parsed definition, but for several years now there has been an almost obligatory token "We're all doomed" post in a significant number of threads at DU regarding organizing or even particularly promising candidates. I'm not saying this to pick a fight, but the number of such posts and their predictable pessimism has certainly created the perception that such views are held by more than a few.

They are not serious DUers, or serious Dems.

The point is that articles like the OP are just a chicken shit way of ducking the issue. You do believe there is a big problem with the way the vote is counted, right?

Well, what has the party done about it? They are ducking the whole issue.

but the doomsayers on DU cannot possibly all be trolls. There are far too many such posts; so many, in fact, that it has become a laughable cliche, a running joke.

These are people with thousands of posts going back several years. They are people who normally make sensible, well-reasoned arguments that I frequently agree with. They are people who I have met personally.

Denial helps no one, and that cuts both ways. We should no more deny the existence of counter-productive pessimism than we should deny the eternal vigilence necessary to prevent election fraud. As Thurber said, "You might as well fall flat on your face, as bend over too far backwards."

And what the OP was refering to, not the general state of affairs.

Show me one serious DUer who says it is useless to vote.

Show me one serious DLC member who says the voting machines should not be used, please.

Dean has said as much, who else? Instead we get BS like in the OP that those against the machines are saying don't vote. I call it BS.

Why would you even say that? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about elections, and the large number of people who post at DU that candidate campaigns and voter registration drives and get-out-the-vote efforts are pointless.

I support verified voting. I support auditable paper trails. I also support getting out and busting your ass for candidates, and I have seen many here who don't.

I also have no idea what you mean by a "serious" DUer. It seems that you have left yourself a foolproof loophole. Any post I could point to that demonstrates the "We're all doomed" syndrome that has become a standing joke at DU can now be dismissed by you as not coming from a "serious" DUer or a "serious" dem. You have framed the debate in a way that permits only your viewpoint, regardless of the actual facts. Nicely done. This is now officially pointless, so I'm going to respectfully suggest that we simply agree to disagree, and let it go at that...

Just like the Dem party leaders have?

I said there are trolls. Means not serious.

I am sick of people trying to make the election protection people into anti-vote people.

Where are your:
...the large number of people who post at DU that candidate campaigns and voter registration drives and get-out-the-vote efforts are pointless.

Where? Show me. I will prove they are not serious Duers.

"...into anti-vote people." And I am sick of you putting words into my mouth. I never attacked election protection people; I am one. Is this how you treat everyone who supports election reform?

"Show me. I will prove they are not serious Duers."

1) You just proved my statement about the meaninglessness of this discussion. Eventually this will devolve into an argument about what really constitutes a "serious" DUer. That misses the point entirely.

2) Do your own search. There are too many to list. I see them daily. If you've honestly never seen a single post of the type I've referenced, then we live on different planets.

3) Your ostrich-like denials fail to address the underlying truth of the OP. I'm not attacking election reformers. I'm simply pointing out that there is a vocal minority at DU that is counter-productive. You seem to agree that (if they existed, which I assure you, they do) they would in fact be detrimental to the work of election reform. Why else would you be objecting so strenously?

So we agree in principle that it would be bad for anyone to denigrate or discourage legitimate traditional campaign efforts under the false aegis of election despair. I think we also agree that we need to work simultaneously on continual election reform and monitoring, as well as electing good candidates.

We only seem to disagree on how often anyone says, in essence, "We're doomed." You take the extreme position of absolute negation. I say I see it all the time. Can we just leave it there, please?

You never backed up your claim that DUers were wanting to keep people from voting. Well, I found one that proves me out. Here ya go, a real serious DUer:

If you feel this strongly what you should be doing, IMO, is organizing a national boycott of the elections in November.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1454506&mesg_id=1460025

I was at the 21st Century Democrats June 2005 training session for campaign staff and candidates. There were several people who interrupted classes asking why any of this mattered, since the voting was rigged anyway. There are numerous defeatists within our party (and they aren't all trolls).

...did their questions get answered? Asking questions and yelling about the issue are two different things.

Did their questions get answered?

What do you think? Is your vote about to be stolen?

I live in a state where those pieces of crap aren't allowed. We vote with a marker and paper, thank you.

The answer is that we have to organize, we have to keep working and we have to raise issues with the voters. As organizers and field staff, there is nothing we can do about voting machines. Our job is to identify, persuade and turn out voters for our candidates.

The only guarantee I can make is that if we focus solely on election fraud and voting machines, we will never win another election. If we tell people the elections are fixed and their votes don't count, how many of them do you think are going to bother to vote?

I'll bet by a machine.

Who the hell is saying in one breath that that your vote will be stolen and don't vote?

No one that I have seen.

But there you go, off course with some BS that turns us voting integrity activists into anti-voting activists, and that is just plain BS.

and when we win an election it's "Rove decided to lay low this time."

That elections can't be stolen?

and I'm telling you on almost every thread about candidates or organizing for '06 and '08, someone shows up and says the discussion is pointless because the Repubs will steal the election anyway.

Responsibly addressing the electoral fraud issue is one thing. Exploiting it and constantly shrieking about some wide ranging Rove inspired nationwide conspiracy, in a manner designed to hype defeatism amongst Democrats is another thing entirely.

...someone is telling people not to vote? BS. You know that is total BS. Maybe it is you who are not reading them correctly?

Anyway, your's is another assinine post attempting to turn voting intergrity people into tin-foil hat wearing, anti-gotv folks. It is getting a bit much to bear. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I'm all for reforming the system. I'm not for demoralizing everybody into thinking that the Republicans can steal elections on a nationwide basis, so our attempt to take back our government is futile.

If you can't see the difference, well...

....and I practice it, daily.

It really is just a matter of facing this reality:: With electronic voting machines counting your vote, and not fixing that situation, no amount of organizing will overcome that force.

It is not, as has been suggested, an anti-gotv..... it is an ORGANIZING attempt. I practice it every day, so I know the difference.

and need to go hand in hand. GOTV and pursuing election reforms and safeguarding honest elections are both issues which need to be vigilantly pursued. So we're on the same page.

...but as long as the BS is allowed free reign we are divided.

Believe me, I search DU for voting threads and it is rare that I ever see anti-gotv and anti-machines in the same posts.

When you allow the vote to be counted by extreme partisans of one side in total secrecy, without any means of checking the accuracy or authenticity of the count, YOU DO NOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY. That's it in a nutshell.

And that's essentially what we have right now, and people should understand it. I don't believe it hurts for people to know the truth.

As with everything, there are degrees. It's possible that by the time the next election rolls around, it will be possible to win some elections. I'm hoping and praying as I did for Kerry's 04 bid and I applaud all the efforts of Dems to level the playing field. Everything that's done increases the chance that some time in the future we will have a democracy again.

But facts are facts. Two plus two still equals four, always will.

We can stop fraud all we want. We'll still need a winning strategy once that problem is resolved. Some people on DU appear to be overly obsessed. We all know about the election fraud issue, it doesn't need to be posted on EVERY thread about every unrelated topic. Its annoying and excessive.

n/t

What you don't get is that in 2004 we had a winning strategy, but the theft of votes by machines caused aa apparent loss.

We won. The election was stolen. I will not get over it. You may have, but I will NGU.

Machine Theft of the 2004 Election : Real Simple Math

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=435225&mesg_id=435225

Governor Dean at the Voting Rights Summit
Posted by Tracy Russo on June 20, 2006 at 07:18 PM

Governor Dean spoke this afternoon at the Voting Rights Summit. He opened by talking about the Democratic Party’s efforts, here in Washington, and in the states, to fight legislation that would require voters to produce photo IDs in order to vote, specifically mentioning the Indiana Democratic Party’s challenge to their state’s new photo identification law. He said the laws are aimed at “voter suppression” and are not about protecting Democracy or preventing fraud.

The Governor then went on to talk about voting machines saying, “We are also going to talk about the machines. I don’t think these machines work. If they do work, the public has no way to verify that they work, and I don’t understand why people in Washington aren’t more concerned. I believe that these things can not be relied on and we do need to spend time and energy on this.”

Governor Dean also praised the efforts of the National Democratic Lawyers Council and the work that they have done. The Lawyers Council is a national organization which is working to recruit local attorneys who can assist in election protection efforts – one example the Governor gave, “During the Virginia elections in 2005 we had an irregularity and we were able to get to the clerks who were running the election and fix the problem on the spot. We have that capability and it matters.”

Yet he cautioned that it isn’t just technical problems that Democrats have to be wary of, but old hat tactics that hope to intimidate voters at the polls, or challenge an individual's right to vote. He gave the example of Dartmouth College students in New Hampshire who were denied their right to vote by a single town clerk who decided registering with their college addresses was unacceptable and who were then challenged by poll watchers on Election Day, infringing on the voting process. “Often it is race based,” he said, “but we know there are two groups that are challenged more often than others – African Americans and people under 45 – all people under 45.”

Governor Dean closed his remarks by saying, “This is a really huge issue, because it’s not about the future of the Democratic Party, but the future of a Democracy that has been the greatest Democracy for 200 years. When you begin to believe winning is more important than America, you have hurt your country, and we can’t have that – we want to make sure that America is always first.