america's high school graduation map

this morning on Wash. Journal they had a guy from Education Week, the Research Center Dir. one Chris Swanson.

he had a map of the US colored from light blue to drk. blue and lgt. red to drk. red. showing were high schools graduated however many students.

red was low graduation rates - guess what states - the south for one.

the map is supposed to be linked at c-span and at www.edweek.org but I can't find it. (not good at searching)

I badly wanted you all to see that map. VERY revealing. and something we need to discuss.

ignorance is dangerous!

we could post it up here as it would make interesting conversation!

:sarcasm:

Don't you people get tired of this?

but DUers seem only to needle the South.

In my state, for example, 42 percent didn't vote for the creep and the Democratic candidate for Senate is polling neck-and-neck with any Republican who may win their primary. I can't help it that the Electoral College is winner-take-all in the presidential race.

And, if a recent DU poll is correct, there are more Southerners on this board than from any other region, including such "liberal" bastions as New York and California.

Good god. The pockets of low graduation rates on that map correlate directly to poverty and racism, and it's highest in the south. Did you look at the graduation map? How many NOLA's do we have to have before we recognize racism still exists in this country, and no not just in the south, all over. That gradution map is so clear it's like a ballpeen to the side of every single person's head. Whether it's indians, blacks, or hispanics, racism takes a terrible toll on this country and it's time to take it on.

:eyes:

But, it's not highest in the South. It only appears that way because we actually talk about it openly. In other parts of the country, they pretend it doesn't exist and don't do jackshit about it.

As is evidenced by that sea of red on the graduation map.

Outta here.

It's pointless and stupid to stereotype an entire region of the country based on one or a handful of metrics, and in fact when one looks at the map (see post below) it's easy to see that the OP's assertion is untrue. There are some states with extremely low graduation rates in the south east but what does that really mean? The thing is that there's a whole host of social factors that go into accounting for graduation rates and it certainly has nothing to do with the intelligence of the people who live there (not that the OP implied that).

On edit: FWIW, the national average is 70% which is way too low. In fact, I see my own state, New York, is not doing so well.

Look at the west. You want to know what all the red is out west? Indian Reservations. A unique and real problem that nobody denies.

Look at the map, it's in the post below. Look at the south. Highest murder rates, highest teen pregnancy rates, highest federal dollars rates, highest poverty rates. And lowest graduation rates. What are we supposed to go ahead and let the south run the country and bring their definition of America to the rest of us, and ignore exactly what it is they want us to have?? Because telling the truth of it hurts your feelings??

It's important to understand why this is true without denigrating a whole region of the country.

In the south. That's where the highest murder rates are. That's where the teen pregnancies are. That's where the highest poverty rates are. It'd be like pretending the drop out rate in my state isn't highest on the reservations and expecting to fix it by focusing on city schools so as not to offend Native Americans. It is that region of the country, their way doesn't work and I'm tired of having to pretend it does because of the 150 year old chip on their shoulder.

The heaviest problems may be in the South but that doesn't mean the rest of the country is gold by any measure.

Also, you might ask yourself if there are systemic problems in the way Federal funds are allocated that might aggravate the pre-existing problems in the South.

And see how well that fixes the problems in the south. And like I said, in my state, we'll focus on my blue county so we don't hurt the feelings of anybody on the indian resevations. This is just stupid. You can't fix problems in one culture with the same solutions that might work in another. You can't even fix the problems in one reservation with the solutions that worked in another, because their cultures are different. If you don't look to specific problems in specific areas, you just flat can't fix them at all. But oh no, don't tell the south there's problems down there, let them live in whatever fantasy world they want to create about their brand of godly patriotism.

The south ALREADY gets more federal funds than they pay out, so that isn't the problem either.

No, I did not. In fact my point was that there are problems with graduation rates all over the country and when one looks closely they tend to correlate with poverty. I was hoping to get people to look at the big picture, but it's obvious you have a problem with the South and nothing I can say will stop you from fixating your anger there.

Which is one of the reasons I pointed out that the low graduation rate in the western red areas is indian reservations.

The pink counties, in my state, are poor white areas that vote Republican. And the bluer the area, the wealthier the area, and the more it votes Democratic.

There are correlations to be made and it's important to make them. The economic policies, the education policies, the ones that work bring prosperity and those are Democratic policies. It's very very clear. The only time you get into a Democratic area that is the reverse, is when it's a minority area. Which means when you marginalize people from the main economic and social engine, you will get predictable results. Extrapolate that globally, and duh, you eventually get people who feel they have no options except violent ones.

the South (and the mid-West) to win national elections.

Face it - you do. Your "precious" Kerry isn't going to do that for the Democratic Party. No one from up North is - not Kerry, not Biden and definitely not Sen. Clinton. Our presidential candidate better be from one of those two regions or he/she is going to flop - Diebold not withstanding.

It's best if you STOP the bashing and start trying to HELP.

And, it doesn't hurt my feelings. It just shows me how BIASED you are. You're no better than a right-winger when you stereotype.

I am Southern. I graduated both high school and college - so did my entire Southern family. So did my neighbors. So will my son. I didn't vote for Shrub. I can read and write and spell and know my way; therefore, your stereotyping is shit.

Edited to add: I also harbor no biases toward Northerners. My husband is a New England liberal and Jewish to boot. But he and I both know that someone from Maine or Massachusetts (where my husband is from) or Vermont or New Hampshire, etc. isn't going to carry the "Heartland" and won't until we get a less biased media.

You've already told me that. You don't want anybody telling you anything. What the hell is the rest of the country supposed to help you do??

What you need is to fix your own problems, that's what you need. You can't fix them if you call it bashing every time somebody points out a problem. The media wouldn't be able to get away with the bashing of liberals either, if you removed the chip from your shoulder and not characterize everything a liberal says about the south as bashing or ridicule. That sea of red down there is shameful, as is the red in the west on the reservations. There's something in common there, but we're not supposed to mention racism and the south either.

I have a sister and brother in Arkansas. My niece is finishing her masters, my bil is a civil engineer. I certainly know everybody in the south isn't "Larry the Cable Guy". Difference is, neither of them would deny the problems in their state or call it bashing when somebody points out something like graduation rates. I really don't know why you do, and I sure don't know why you'd think anybody would want to come down and "help" when they know they'll be met with the reception you give people every time they mention a problem in the south.

You're always on here blasting the South and you don't know jack about it.

Sister and brother in Arkansas? Whoopee. I've lived here all my life.

I don't deny the problems in my state, but, if you want to know the truth - the poorest graduation rate in the South isn't the counties with a bunch of white-bred George Bush-voting rednecks: it's the African-American communities - you know, the South's largest voting-block of Democrats. But, see, you don't know that because you'd rather spout off about stuff you don't know than to shut up, listen and THEN see where you can help.

There is racism EVERYWHERE. We haven't confined it to the South. In fact, with our large population of African-Americans, we probably deal better with race relations - and at least more honestly - than the North and mid-West where the population of black folk is not as large. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I don't know why the poorest communities are the black communities - but they are here. It can't all be chalked up to racism, though, when you consider that, if nearly everyone in the community is of the same color, how can their be a race bias?

If you want to help elevate some of the poor graduation rates, maybe you should get off your high horse, come down here and spend some money in the black communities. That would help their businesses, which helps their tax rates, which helps them fund programs that keep kids from dropping out of school. Heck, you can even come and purchase gas from the gas station my white step-father runs in my city's black community - a community he both respects and contributes to EVERY DAY.

And, while you're here, why don't you try to stop talking AT Southerners and try talking WITH them for a change?

P.S. You can start by donating some dough here: http://www.splcenter.org/ That would go a long way to helping the black communities in the South.

the black communities"


that's your problem. we know why.

Why is that, then?

It's not racism unless black people are racist against themselves - or white people in rural communities are racist against themselves. If black people in black communities aren't purchasing commodities from black business owners and building up the tax base in black communities (and you can substitute white in there for the white rural communities on this list) then it's not a matter of racism. It's a matter of purchasing power and tax bases.

Good God, why are you being so thick?

But class issues are not something we like to discuss in the U.S., or even acknowledge they exist. While class is heavily affected by racism, it's only one part of the picture.

Clearly it didn't. YOU assumed that, because of YOUR biases, not anybody elses. Why do you assume that just because I don't live in the south now, that I haven't in the past, or that my sister and brother didn't live their all their lives? Or that their in-laws haven't, or that my nieces and nephews haven't?

You can't talk at southerners, to southerners, with southerners, or anywhere in the general vicinity of southerners - unless you're praising southerners. And of course that isn't true of ALL southerners, or even most southerners, but it sure is true of you.

nt

Try "we people." I'm not the grammar police, but if your are joining in on a thread about education and bashing a region for its lack of education, you should at least use good grammar.

I used 'us' on purpose

'you people' is like 'those people' - many times used by racists or classists

I'm a Southerner. I'm educated. I didn't vote for the Shurb.

AND, my husband - the love of my life, the man of my heart - is a "Yankee," thank you very much, so there is no bias on my part.

nt

white-bred Bush-voters in the South is crap.

It's the Democratic-voting black communities. I can tell because I happen to know the individual counties in the South quite well.

Sorry - but your allusion that it's white rednecks is FALSE.

I said 'south'.

look at the map

You purposely pointed out the South in your OP and then further down you said ignorant people were misled - as if to say that these "ignorant" people in the South are the ones who vote Republican. I could clearly see what you were alluding to.

And, you were WRONG.

bigger then any other area of the map

:blush:

graduation rates in the country. It's the same here in the southwest. Dixie isn't alone.

I think the problem might be the system, not the kids or the culture.

Personally, I think it's daft to keep kids in academics until they're 18 unless they're headed to university. I wish we'd adopt the European model and turn them loose at 16, or at least give them the option of 2 years of learning a trade instead of making them plod through two extra years of academics they're not interested in and not getting.

What we're doing is clearly not working for too many kids.

Here's a zoom in of primarily NYS but also catches most of the North East. It looks to me to be closely correlated with poverty (based on what I know to be true of NYS).

There should be a minimum level of knowledge and critical thinking skills and beyond that it should be up to the kid and their parents. The problem is, will trade education work? Are there enough well-paying jobs to go around?

where you are.. i am in a rural area.. it totally sucks, i lost 2 jobs before i discovered it was my 'Free Tibet' sticker on my car.. i am sure if you live in a metropolitan collage town i would be different.. there are some areas of Memphis,but not a lot. i haven't been in the eastern part of TN yet.. we are moving to Winston-Salem NC soon. I hope it is better there.

the problem here is it is dominated by 'Tribal' religious institutions. the girls are going to get married out of high school and start breeding immediately, raise kids and their world will never be bigger than the congregation of their church. so why bother.

no child left behind is a plague on our children. it will be generations before we fix the damage if they start doing it right tomorrow..

the African-American communities, by and large.

I'm sure there's a number of reasons - that don't necessarily point to regional racism, by the way - for this.

And, yes, I will agree that the rural areas where there is no news, no media, except for the right-wing variety, that makes for some pretty tough times for anyone with cognitive reasoning and thinking abilities.

I do live in a college town that's also near Oak Ridge National Laboratories (lots of very educated and intelligent researchers there, including my father-in-law), so, yes, my city is a little better off in a lot of ways than the rural communities.

in Washington State and we knew that the Black people didn't like us, so we didn't try to hang with them, tho no one i knew growing up was prejudiced, actually my white friends..the blacks tho friendly never made friends with us.. and I got the parade permits during the 60's for the Blacks to have Civil Right marches in town, i accompanied Rosa Parks on a train to Seattle from San Fransisco. during the parades my friends would mingle and listen for people who might be planning to cause trouble during the parades.. i also was a Peace Corps Volunteer and went to Africa during the 1973 drought in the Sahel.

since i have moved to the south my perspective has changed, i know now having worked here for a while that some blacks just flat HATE us because we are white regardless of how you treat them..like Chris Rock makes fun of. I saw a program on the problem of blacks and jail, the program was hosted by black people, they were discussing the problem of a 'subGroup of young black males not going to school and going to jail, and living their life expecting to go to jail and being proud of it when they got out. the conclusion of their study was the men were addicted to being 'Cool' and living the 'Cool' lifestyle and blaming all the problems of that life style on the Man.

I was a Juvenile Parole Officer, i had previously been a Research Scientist and research is a lifestyle.. i noticed several phenomena involved in the 'Delinquent Lifestyle' ..not unlike the 'Cool Lifestyle'.. i wrote a paper entitles, 'Apriori and Inductive Logic as Perceptual Dysfunction and a Stalemate in the Counseling Process'. the premise is that the 'dysfunction' is caused by an 'Apriori Loop'.. that always comes to the same conclusion regardless of where any information is introduced. the Loop is based on 'Information Disease', usually someone introduces the Victim into the perceptual format, however they can come to the conclusion on their own if their family life is delinquent in child development and as a child they never get out of the terrible two's. the Aprioi view results in inappropriate and ineffective actions and thinking which causes nothing but trouble and unhappiness, the cause of which the victim externalizes...

if you try to help them you become one of 'Those' that cause their problems..

by now you should have figured out that Rush Limbaugh is the Typhoid Mary of Perceptual Dysfunction of this Century, i heard him say, 'if you dont understand what i am saying, keep listening and you will figure it out'.

the only way to deal with Apriori View is to practice Art, music-as in learning to play an instrument with a teacher, repetitious exercise-as in swimming laps-running bike riding distance and Meditation, Meditation is by far the most effective. every inmate i got to meditate was paroled in 30 to 60 days.

i noticed a long time ago that the 'Cool Slang' 'Ebonics' is a lot like 'Val Speak' of the Fernando Valley girls..it says little specifically, but uses innuendo and inflection to communicate an 'Insiders' lagguage...

when i was in Africa there was a language called Whalif -spl- it was the language the Beatniks used to Jive with, and probably a lot of it is in Ebonics. it has the fewest words of any language and is a language almost entirely of innuendo and inflection.

no one is going to do an real research on this subject for the same reason i am gong to be flamed to death for what i said, there isn't a format to discuss it.

i feel that there is a lot of trouble with education and a subset of young blacks because the education is a 'White' education.. they dont feel it will help them as a black person.. so they dont participate. not that that the schools here in general are really F*cked up.. and even more F*cked up since No Child left behind ruined the educational system.

dont flame if you dont provide another perspective and information.. and you haven't worked in a mill with an all black crew except for you. i dont consider myself prejudiced, i can only make observations and try to figure out what is happening to try to solve a problem, what i hve experienced all my life with race problems is that few want to solve the problem, i am right brain dominant and dont see things in terms of extremes. but since i have been in the south i see prejudice from blacks and whites..

Here's a low-res version.


You can download the high-res PDF here: http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2006/06/22/41s_map.h25.html

(I must not be any good at that either :) )

But it took me a couple of tries to get a working password.

You can also download the high resolution PDF from here: http://www.box.net/public/suj423d83h

in the South - and you guys aren't going to like it - but I'm going to call it as I see it, anyway.

It's the African-American communities here. Look at Memphis, TN. Look at the counties around Atlanta, GA and Anderson County, SC.

This is not a racist statement, but a factual one. It's certainly a sad state of affairs when the mostly Democratic-voting populations of the South are treated with such disdain that they're not given the proper tools in which to educate their children. The racists are the people who don't give a damn about young black men and women.

Therefore, the OP's allusion that it's all the white-bred Southern George Bush-voting rednecks is incorrect prima facia. It's mostly - and I can tell from the counties with the worst rates - those who have large populations of African-Americans.

And if it's a high rate of correlation, which I would be surprised if it wasn't, then why do you think that's so? Do you think there are perhaps other factors that affect both poverty and graduation rates? If so, then what?

I'm not trying to call BS on your statement, because although I don't know about that area of the country, I tend to suspect what you say is true. I'd just be interested in hearing you elaborate on what other factors are at play here.

Also, do you think the same reasoning applies to South Carolina and Florida?

Lower graduation rates tend to be found in school districts with higher levels of racial segregation. This relationship holds for bothblack and white students, although it is stronger and more consistent for the latter. A graduation gap exists at all segregation levels,with whites consistently finishing high school at higher rates than black students. This gap narrows considerably in highlysegregated school systems, where roughly 55 percent of each group graduates.

The second graph shows an even more dramatic pattern for economic segregation. In school districts with low levels of segregationby economic status, over 80 percent of blacks and nearly 90 percent of whites graduate from high school. These rates dropprecipitously for both groups as economic segregation levels rise. While the racial gap in graduation essentially closes wheneconomic segregation levels are extremely high, fewer than 60 percent of students from either group graduate in such settings.

Segregation affects the lives of all students in detrimental ways. However, compared to whites, black youth in the South are aboutfour times as likely to live and attend school in communities that suffer from high levels of both racial and economic segregation. Asa result, today’s black students continue to bear the heavy burdens of racial isolation and concentrated poverty.

To read the entire paper and see the graphs, go here: http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/900817_who_graduates_south.pdf

Notice that it points, specifically, to what I just said: that in segregated communities in the South, the problem is not as accute, but, when the entire population is segregated, then it becomes a problem.

My whole point in this thread was to get people to realize that the problem of graduation rates is complex, highly dependent on other factors and that the South should have the lowest graduation rates should not minimize the problems found in other areas of the country.

The map primarily indicates how unjust our society is.

I don't have comparison maps at hand, but I am willing to bet that the areas with low graduation rates are low-income areas. I can't see the detail that well, but it looks like lots of rural areas have low rates. I am surprised that the California valleys have reasonably good graduation levels.

and ignorant people can easily be brainwashed and led

are ignorant and mis-led?

They primarily vote Democratic, you know.

:eyes:

I'm not dissing anyone. racist neo cons don't want blacks educated (they'd rather not have women educated either)

nowadays they HAVE brainwashed uneducated/ignorant blacks to become neo cons.

But...oooookkkayy.

...blacks vote 98% for democrats; then

why don't those red areas vote BLUE?

It's a related set of phenomena- and yes, the South scores especially poorly on almost every measure.











http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/25/6/1825848.pdf

A very simplistic example would be that if you attend a wealthy, private school like Harvard then the network of social contacts you meet there are likely going to help you succeed later in life in ways that your network of social contacts from SUNY Albany (not to denigrate UAlbany) will not.

Wikipedia actually has a pretty good article on this topic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital

It also involves social trust- which embodies notions that are often inimical in the South (due in part- some believe- to its history with slavery, sharecropping and abusive labor practices).

Low social capital is typically found where there is a good deal of "fear of the other," and that can be seen in intolerance towards those who are different- in religous views, in race, sexual orientation, place of birth, etc.

Institutions tend to not be trusted either- and interestingly enough, this seems to promote actually governments that are focused more heavily on the repressive functions of society- as opposed to helping functions. Together, it leads to isolating effects on individuals and communities alike.

All things considered- it shouldn't be surprising then that higher social capital generally matches up with higher high school graduation rates (and with education in general).

Yet within lower social classes there at least used to be a high degree of social capital in that people helped "their own". Blue-collar working-class usually meant that you didn't move far from home, pand laced a high value on family and friends and helped them out whenever possible, while upper middle-class to upper-class meant almost exactly the opposite.

Another really interesting thing is often seen in immigrant communities (which is one why I suspect Texas scores higher than other regions in the deep South).

The famous example of what you're talking about comes from epidemiology and is called the Roseto effect:

"People are nourished by other people. The importance of social networks in health and longevity has been confirmed again by study of a close-knit Italian-American community in Roseto, Pennsylvania. At first blush, Roseto seems a diorama of what once was the nation's ideal lifestyle-neighbors who looked after one another, civic-minded joiners and doers who formed the grass roots of American-style democracy.

<snip>

Study of the "Roseto Effect" began with a chance conversation over a couple of beers. A local physician happened to mention to the head of medicine at the University of Oklahoma that heart disease seemed much less prevalent in Roseto than in adjoining Bangor, occupied by non-Italians. When first studied in 1966, Roseto's cardiac mortality traced a unique graph. Nationally, the rate rises with age. In Roseto, it dropped to near zero for men aged 55-64. For men over 65, the local death rate was half the national average.

The study quickly went beyond death certificates, to poke, prod, and extensively interview the Rosetans. Instead of helping to solve the puzzle, all the data simply ruled out any genetic or other physical sources of the Rosetan's resistance to heart disease. Two statistics about Roseto were eye-catching: Both the crime rate and the applications for public assistance were extraordinarily low.

Instead of putting the elderly "on the shelf," they were elevated "to the Supreme Court." The scientists were led to conclude that the Roseto Effect was caused by something that could not be seen through the microscope, something beyond the usual focus of medical researchers.
------------

Simply put- the Rosetans created a climate where people respected, trusted and believed in one another. They felt solidarity AND eschewed ostentation- which among other things, lowered hostility and stress levels. It's all the more remarkable because we can see the effect of these social determinates at work in hard clinical measures -even though the Rosetans had a number of classic "bad health habits" that should have led to the opposite results.

More cool stuff in this short article: http://abrahampaiss.com/resources/Roseto_Effect.pdf

I was aware of that but never knew the term.

I wonder if lower-class communities still have that social capital or if they've been forced by economic pressures to abandon that sort of close-knitted, cooperative outlook?

And if they haven't abandoned it, then are certain kinds of social capital worth more than others?

It's an interesting and complex field of study. Unfortunately, funding for social sciences has been particularly hard hit under the Bush administration. Arguably, a time when we need it the most. :-(

i admire a Buddhist monk much more than than a millionaire corporate fascist.

it often doesn't turn out that way. My ex husband and his brother were both Harvard grads, born and raised in the upper middle class in Massachusetts and New York. Neither one could make a success of anything. Why? Well, they expected everything to be given them easily and had that smirk that you know who has when they sneered at "lesser" people.

Here in New Haven I interact with lots of former Yalies too, some sad ones that just couldn't leave New Haven after they graduated. When you get right down to it, some Ivy Leaguers just can't cut it, social capital or no social capital.

It is also why I used words such as 'likely' to indicate that while generally true it is not necessarily the case. But to argue that social networks acquired through attendance at an ivy league college are no more valuable than social networks acquired at a state school is inane. If your social network consists of mainly well-to-do to rich people then you have a much lesser chance of being dirt poor, not finding a decent job, etc. The examples you mention are statistical outliers and only that -- exceptions.

Arguing that exceptions invalidate a mode is the same as arguing that there is no more racism because Colin Powell became a powerful man or claiming that there is no more sexism because Condoleeza Rice acquired a position of status and power. Your social networks matter and as depakid pointed out, it's much more complex than just the social and economic class of the majority of people in your network.

experiences are by and large outliers. I've met some fantastic Yalies and Cantabridgians ("Cantabs" is the insy name for Harvard's football team)that are the cream of the crop. I just find it laughable when parents get crazy if their kid doesn't make it to the Ivies and goes to a great second tier school. I actually had a friend tell me that my son's school, Columbia, which is an Ivy League school, wasn't "up there" with Harvard, Yale and Princeton. I feigned horror and exclaimed, "Oh no! Life is over!"

below the national average.

,their support in the 'War for Oil'.. it devistated the economy

That was very interesting!

repug-leaning, without a doubt. It's a public-school bashing paper. Kind of a Faux News type of magazine. I prefer NEA Today a whole lot more.