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Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it: on the castration of the U.S. Senate

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:48 AM
Original message
Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it: on the castration of the U.S. Senate
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 01:01 AM by Clarkie1
A thread has recently been posted which feebly attempts to give cover to Democrats who voted for the blank-check version of the IWR. I feel strongly that such cover is not warranted and in fact dangerous the the balance of power between the executive and legislative branch of government and must not stand.

Even sadder than those who do not study history are those who study history, but do not learn. I guess Kerry should have studied more of the history of Vietnam, and the complicity of the Congress, or had less of an eye on what he thought was politically expedient as a presidential hopeful. It makes his recent "joke" so ironic. Yes indeed, study more or you might end up voting for an unnecessary war.

A lot of other sentors...22 I believe was the final count, were a whole lot stronger and smarter, including Senator Kennedy. That's a whole lot better than the 2 who voted against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, but still not good enough. Comparison to the Gulf of Tonkin aren't even valid because senators had more information at their disposal. Senator Kennedy tried valiantly to appeal to the patriotic instict as opposed to the political, but he feel short in short time.

Kerry participated in the castration of the U.S. Senate that day. In fact, he led the Senate in the castration.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kerry was a great standard bearer and I was proud of him
I am shocked that some don't find wisdom in Reagan's 11th Commandment to his troops and apply it to their own (supposedly) party.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I won't allow defense of that vote to go unchallenged. Ever. nt
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 12:55 AM by Clarkie1
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Did you have the war experience Kerry had?
Just a yes or no will probably do. Why attack your own?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Too much is at stake.
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 12:57 AM by Clarkie1
The Senate needs to stand up, we can't defend the weakness of the past.

Edit: The answer is no. Kerry should have listened to Kennedy, who had more experience that mattered.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You didn't answer the questions, did you?
Are you inferring Kerry was weak?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes, on that day he was patriotically weak.
He made the decision based on politics, not patriotism.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. You call a Nam medal winner patriotically weak?
You actually have that much gall and nerve to put down our standard bearer and a two tour Nam vet?

Do you get your medal of honors out of a Lucky Charms Cereal box?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Kennedy didn't go to Nam
Are you dismissing Kerry's service. Exactly what are you trying to do to Kerry?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. What I'm saying is Kennedy had more experience in the Senate.
And that seemed to be more important in this instance, as it was Kennedy who made the correct choice.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. Senator Kennedy, Sir, Has An Absolutely Secure Seat
Experience had nothing to do with it: he knew he could come to no harm by his action. Others lacked that luxury.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
40. But doesn't that hit on the root of the problem?
Senators that vote thinking in terms of *keeping their seat* rather than speaking out against a potential travesty?

And I do know some would consider it naive to expect heroes in the Senate, but we've come to the point where we almost need Senators like that. Certainly we need them now, even when they have re-gained the majority. I don't believe the republicans will do anything other than obstruct any attempts at oversight.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Not All Problems Have Solutions, Ma'am
That people who have invested their lives in professional careers are generally unwilling to throw them away is a problem that class.

"Saints would meet no acclaim were the condition common."
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-03-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #41
67. then perhaps WE need to decide if we need these *professionals*
I for one don't want someone representing me that is more willing to keep his lifestyle by voting against my communities needs.

Let him go to work in the private sector.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. I will vote for Kerry if he wins the nomination ....
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 12:59 AM by Trajan
"Circular firing squad reporting for duty .... SIR ! "

What did Will Rogers say ? .... "I don't belong to an organized political party .. Im a DEMOCRAT ! " ....

That or something or other ... yeah ....
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. If you posted this because you don't think Kerry should try again,
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 01:01 AM by napi21
I think it's a futile post. Kerry hasn't got achance to win again, and I think he knows that too.

He's a good man. He's very intelligent, and most of the time uses common sense. the times he doesn't,hesoundsvery foolish...even with explainations. He's a good seantor and will stay in that roll.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. That's not why I posted. I welcome Kerry's participation.
In fact, I think the debate would be beneficial to the Party and the country.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Sure as some one "patriotically weak":
Love your sense of loyalty to the party.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. I am loyal to the party, not to the vote. nt
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. I am sick of Nam vets being put down
Yet, you are doing it to Kerry while calling him weak and unpatriotic. It has nothing to do with the party.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. This has nothing to do with Kerry's patriotism as a Vietnam veteran.
I will not participate in your attempt to change the subject.

That is all.
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #33
59. Hypothetical
Would you be calling Max Cleland patriotically weak if he decided to run for President ?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
53. I assume that means you'll be supporting John McCain if he gets the GOP nom.
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 04:21 AM by jgraz
Veterans deserve our respect, but they are not saints. Once anyone enters the national political stage, their policies and public decisions are fair game for criticism. To suggest otherwise is simply un-American.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #30
61. I think John McCain is weak and unpatriotic.
How do you feel about that?

I admire his service and sacrifice in Vietnam, but don't think much of what he's done since then. I hope I don't get raked over the coals here on DU should he end up with the Repub nomination and I express my opinions towards him.

As far as Kerry goes, I think he's a great Senator and patriot, and a good person, but I think he displayed weakness and moral cowardice with his IWR vote. I think he understood exactly what he was voting for (I don't think he's stupid) and I think he placed political expediency ahead of principle.

I don't have anything bad to say about the man, but I did find his vote in that particular instance to be deeply disappointing.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. This Is A Pointless And Futile Line To Press, Sir
The vote on the resolution was political trap, in which there was no good choice. Conventional political strategy dictated that the best of the poor choices was not to hand the enemy clubs to use in accusing Democrats of being "soft on defending America", and political figures contemplating future races, including the up-coming Congressional elctions, voted accordingly, and rationalized it as seemed best to each. It is quite likely this vote was conditioned by a confidence the venture when undertaken would prove more or less successful, based on a confidence in the military capabilities of the country. Indeed, had the plans of professionals in the Pentagon and the State Department been followed, this might well have been the case.

The fact is that the war in Iraq is the sole responsibility of the Republican administration which conceived, pressed, and executed it. Any attempt to spread the blame is essentially an attempt to absolve them from it, and free them to some degree from the consequences of their folly and failure. Fortunately the people of the country are wiser than some left activists, and see the matter as simply what it actually is: a total cock-up by the Republicans. They have acted accordingly in the recent elections, and will act accordingly again in the '08 race, particularly as the present regime is resolved to ignore their clearly registered view that it is time to end the thing.

The real question is why, since the line is neither a true one, nor a useful one in the national political scene, any persist in pressing it at all. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the reason some press this line is a desire for civil war within the Democratic Party and the left. To give in to this desire is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory: it is the one remaining hope of the enemy.


"Can't nobody here play this game?"
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. As I said, Kerry and the others made the political choice, not the patriotic one.
I agree the ultimate responsibility for the Iraq war rests with theh executive branch, but that does not excuse the actions of the Senate. Such actions must not be excused, or we surely will not learn from history.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Politicians Act From Political Calculation, Sir
That is what one learns from the study of history. To expect otherwise is to expect square deals from used car salesmen and pacifism from gemerals.

Surely you do not imagine that defeat of the resolution in the fall of '02 would have prevented the invasion of Iraq? The new Senate, with perhaps no more than forty Democrats instead of forty-five, would have passed it in time for the thing to occur on schedule.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
62. I have no problem with that statement, Sir.
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 06:54 AM by Crunchy Frog
What I have a problem with is people who try to dress up something that was an act of naked political calculation as something other than what it was.

I agree with you that Kerry voted for the IWR out of a sense of political expediency and naked calculation, rather than having been honestly decieved by a semi-articulate chimpanzee. I personally think that it might have been better for him politically if he had made a principled vote rather than a purely calculated one.

There are many American voters who do not find naked political opportunism to be an attractive quality, and don't feel strongly motivated to vote for it.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. So just keep on keeping on that Kerry is patriotically weak
And defending your insane decision that Ted Kennedy, had better experience about Vietnam, than Kerry.

I can't believe you'd post such tripe against Kerry.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. Who the hell are you to question Senator Kerry's patriotism? n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
54. He's an American, Kerry's a public figure and he can question whatever the hell he wants
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Excellent post,
About a subject that keeps getting rehashed on this board to benefit the RW chicken-hawks who are truly accountable for this Iraq disaster. I wish your post would be the final word on this subject,but as always I'm sure someone will blame the democrats for this war.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
13. Seems Kerry learned a lot more than Clark who is still
trying to win in Iraq:

The mission in Iraq is spiraling into failure. American voters have sent a clear message:Bring our troops home, but don't lose. That's a tall order both for resurgent Democrats, some of whom are calling for a quick withdrawal, and the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, which is presumably crafting new options.

Snip..

Timetables a bad idea

What about a timetable for U.S. troop withdrawals? Today, setting a rigid, Washington-driven timetable is an option, but a bad one. A precipitous troop reduction could have far-reaching effects: emboldening Iran, weakening U.S. security promises to friendly states, and even sparking military initiatives by other powers — Turkey or Iran — to deal with the resulting security vacuum. Our weakened position in Iraq also could undercut our leverage in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute.

Snip...

Of course there are no guarantees, but from such a dialogue should emerge a prescription for U.S. troop levels and activities consistent with our larger interests. Carrots and sticks could be employed. For instance, the factions could vow certain actions in return for U.S. assistance or troop deployments, or redeployments, and possible assistance from neighboring states.

http://securingamerica.com/node/1961


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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Of course, I disagee. Of course, you are trying to change the subject. nt
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yeah, tell us all again how Kerry is patriotically weak
I can't believe this.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. He was that day.
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 01:10 AM by Clarkie1
When someone lies, it does not make them a liar, necessarily. They simply lied.

Kerry put politics ahead of the appropriate constitutional balance of powers between the exectutive and the legislative branches of government. He ceded powers to the executive not envisioned by the authors of the Constitution. The first order of a patriot is to defend the Constitution, and part of that is defending the balance of powers.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Now you're calling Kerry a liar?
There are sayings about people who dig holes and when they should stop.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. No, I was using an analogy.
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 01:16 AM by Clarkie1
Saying he was unpatriotic that day does not mean he's not a patriot.

He wanted to be President one day so much, he allowed it to cloud his judgement and thus became derelict in his duty as the Junior U.S. Senator from Massachusetts.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. You like your shovel OK...
Keep on digging.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
60. I never saw it as a question of patriotism....
It seemed, and seems still, that the pigmedia calls the shots (at the behest of mr pig)...i know this is crude and, maybe offensive terminology, but it's the pigmedia put bush in office; it's the pigmedia which revises history and creates false basis for reading the political situation. The pigmedia need being brought to heel, and the people won't do it. And don't for a minute think them greasy m'whores aren't aware of what's at stake.
btw Kerry etal have never demanded the media stop pandering to mr pig. never
snip>
Al Gore’s announcement that he will not seek the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004 says a great deal about the state of the American political system and the Democratic Party.
snip>
In explaining his decision, Gore has offered only one political motivation—but it is a highly significant one. Referring obliquely to the 36-day battle over the Florida vote and the Supreme Court ruling that ultimately handed the presidency to his Republican opponent, Gore told his “60 Minutes” interviewer, “I think a campaign that would be a rematch between myself and President Bush would inevitably involve a focus on the past that would, in some measure, distract from the focus on the future that I think all campaigns have to be about.”
In other words, a second Gore-Bush contest would inevitably raise the overtly anti-democratic manner in which the 2000 election crisis was resolved, and bring into question the legitimacy of the Bush administration. In his desire to avoid such issues, Gore reflects a preoccupation of the entire ruling elite and both political parties.
<snip>
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/dec2002/gore-d21.shtml
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. No I'm not! What did Clark learn? Vietnam, like Iraq is an unwinnable war! n/t
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. We can't win miliarily, that's for sure.
At best there is a D- solution. But I'm not going to continue this conversation here, you are still trying to change the subject.

I've said all I want to say or need to say in this thread. I've made the point I wanted to make, and I think it's an important one.

Kerry is a good man, and a patriot. His actions on that day, however, were niether good nor patriotic. History must remember what happened that day, and we must learn from it.

That is all.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. You are still questioning his patriotism! The day will be a marker for Bush's deceit. n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
34. Speaking of history lessons:
Read these:

How Do You Ask a Man to Be the Last Man to Die in Vietnam?


Remarks at the 20th Anniversary of the Vietnam Wall

Seven letters — that's all it takes to make the word Vietnam.

But we know it is much more than a word. More than the name of a country. Vietnam. It is a period in time — it is a one word encapsulation of history — a one-word summary of a war gone wrong, of families divided, generations divided, a nation divided. It carries in its seven letters all the confusion, bitterness, love, sacrifice and nobility of America's longest war. It is a one-word all-encompassing answer to questions: What happened to him? Where was he injured? When did he change?

Say the word Vietnam to a veteran and you can smell the wood burning fires, hear the AK-47's and B-52's, see pajama clad Viet Cong skirting a tree line and the helicopters darting across the sky — you can feel all the emotions of young men and women who in the end were fighting as much for their love of each other as for the love of country that brought them there in the first place.

Today we come here to remember and to memorialize forever all that was Vietnam. In doing so we do not just read the names and remember those who gave their lives. We remember and celebrate what they were and remain part of — a great nation committed to peace, individual liberty, freedom for all — a nation which outlined in the writing of a constitution fundamental rights which belong to every one of its citizens and which we remember today are worth dying for. Today — because of those engraved forever on these black panels — we celebrate rights and aspirations that are bigger than any individual and which each of us as individuals are willing to defend with life itself.

We celebrate the nobility of young Americans willing to go thousands of miles from home to fight for the notion that in the final measurement someone else's freedom was connected to our own.

It doesn't matter that politics got in the way. It doesn't matter that leaders remained wedded to their own confusion. Nothing — not politics, not time, not outcome — nothing will ever diminish one iota the contributions of these brothers and sisters, nothing can ever lessen the courage with which they waged war. Nothing reduces the magnitude of their sacrifice, nothing can take away the quality of their gift to their nation.

<...> The Vietnam soldiers, airmen and sailors fought with as much conviction, as much commitment, as much courage and as much selfless sacrifice as soldiers in any war. And we did so with love of country and love of fellow soldiers as great as any despite our nation's political divisions at home and the difficult circumstances we were required to confront. This memorial will forever remind the generations to come of that special spirit — the special bond of soldier to country and soldier to soldier.

And we remember today also with pride at the outcome — that for our generation of veterans the war did not end when we came home. For us the fight continued — the recognition honoring our deeds came when veterans pushed for it — Agent Orange, outreach centers, extension of the GI Bill — increased funding for Veterans Affairs , these all happened because veterans remembered their brothers and sisters and never stopped fighting to keep faith with the promise to veterans.

We also remember those soldiers captured by the enemy who did not return and those we've yet to account for. One of the things we are most proud of is that we initiated the most extensive, exhaustive accounting for the missing or captured in all the history of human warfare. No nation has ever gone to such lengths to remember and to account their missing. Today — because of the veterans of Vietnam — when we send our young men and women into harm's way, never again will we allow anyone to be left behind never will it take so long to find and bring every one home.

The truth is that every advance we've made on behalf of our veterans has been the result of the commitment of veterans and to each other and their vows never to give up the fight. This Wall itself grew out of that spirit.

That spirit bonded men and women together — making us more than we were when we left for Vietnam, and didn't diminish once we had returned. Each panel, each name, tells the story of that journey.

<...> That is why we come here today. To keep faith. To celebrate the 58,226 brave men and women who didn't return from Vietnam, who knew the Lord's words that "There is no greater love than sacrificing yourself for a friend." And so, it is in that spirit that we remember all who fought with our brothers and sisters — for our families — for our nation. God bless them all and may God bless the United States of America.


There is no winning in Iraq!
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. That quote by Kerry is now often repeated regarding Iraq
Sage wisdom on his part.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. They are two very different conflicts
but they do have in common the fact that they were unnecessary wars.

However, Iraq isn't Vietnam. It's a very different dynamic and will require a very different way to end our participation there.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Certainly, we must learn the lessons of Vietnam. There is no winning in Iraq
what the White House defines as "winning," that is for certain.

I applaud Kerry for his patriotism in speaking out against 2 unnecessary wars.

But...you are still trying to change the subject.

O.K., now that is DEFINITELY all.

I'm taking a break from DU for awhile...see ya!
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. I hope we'll hear from you much later...like never
Your insults to Kerry aren't wanted.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
51. nice --- tag-teaming someone expressing their opinion
You know, at some point we're all praying that a light bulb will appear over some of your heads and you will realize that expressing a different point of view is every person's right. This is a discussion board.

The emotional investment in political figures to the point that verbal fisticuffs ensue is just insanity. Clarkie1's opinion is no skin off anyone's nose. Regardless of the imagined insults he was accused of, the fact is he was actually calm, concise, and respectful. He exposed his soft underbelly by sharing how he feels, and like clockwork he was eviscerated and made to feel like shit.

Well done.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Maybe he should think twice about his remarks
calling Kerry patriotically weak. You think?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. By all means, let's stifle as much debate as possible
Just so long as the Kerry Klub isn't offended.

Tell me this: what do you suppose your idol would think of your approach to free speech?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. no, I think some of you may want to re-think
how you view politicians. When you compare an over-the-top following of a politician to a person's core gut feeling on a subject as grave as war and death, there is clearly something wrong with the picture.

Clarkie1 very eloquently and patiently I might add explained his most serious opinion about the vote on the IWR and was summarily trounced. For crissakes they are just words used to describe something that was really on his mind.

Every once in a while someone dares to wander outside the groupthink prevalent here at DU. The suggestion that he or anybody should think twice before speaking their mind is presumptuous, gratuitous censorship delivered with arrogant rudeness.

That's what I think.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Surely you jest
In response to those who are offended by the OP's remarks about Kerry and others, you said, "The emotional investment in political figures to the point that verbal fisticuffs ensue is just insanity."

What do you think the OP was trying to do except to make their chosen candidate look better by trashing other Dems? The entire motivation behind the thread seems to be an emotional investment in a political figure. No attempt is made to understand that the IWR was in fact, as the Magistrate pointed out, a political trap.

Sometimes we forget that while Senators are supposed to vote as they believe, they also and more importantly are supposed to represent their constituents. We, the American people, failed them on that day. Some Senators felt such pressure from their home states that they were compelled to vote as they did. Ignoring the voters' wishes only gets the other guy voted in next time, and in this case that means an even greater majority of Repubs armed with ink pads and rubber stamps for the president's agenda.

Kennedy voted as he did that day because he COULD. Kerry voted as he did because he HAD to. Kerry is not my first choice in 2008, nor was he in 2004, but I am not so blind that I cannot understand the complications inherent in the IWR vote and it's implications. At that time far too many Americans were still seeing red from 9/11 and were all too willing to believe that tough action against Iraq was a necessary thing. Had we, as a collective, expressed less support for the IWR our Senators would have been given more leeway to vote against it. We didn't, and they didn't, and that's just the way it works.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. no I don't jest and neither should you
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 06:01 AM by AtomicKitten
And again you are imposing your opinion on the issue, mystified that others just don't get it. We get it; we just don't agree. With all due respect to the Magistrate, that was also an opinion proffered.

And indeed the Republicans are famous for setting these traps before elections. They did it with DOMA and Homeland Security as well, positioning the votes before an election, putting the Dems between a rock and a hard place. I wonder if you are so quick to defend Bill Clinton for the trashing he gets for DOMA here at DU, but I digress.

Of all the votes, war is a biggie. Right up there behind the death penalty, I think. Maybe you are comfortable with sweeping in into a pile of things you can rationalize with a clear conscience, but I cannot and apparently Clarkie1 cannot either.

I don't expect you to understand it nor will I make any attempt to persuade you to agree, but I really don't think it is unreasonable to ask for some goddamn common courtesy if you can't muster the respect to allow another point of view here at DU, one that perhaps deviates from the groupthink, a point of view about something some of us feel to our core being.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #58
63. What on earth.....
AK you are just plain being uncivil to me. There's no call for this at all.

You said "but I really don't think it is unreasonable to ask for some goddamn common courtesy if you can't muster the respect to allow another point of view here at DU, one that perhaps deviates from the groupthink".

How did I try to stifle anyone's opinion? An opinion was expressed, I gave an opposing view. This is refusing to allow them to speak? How? And if there is any groupthink going on here at DU I rather think your perspective is more prevalent than mine own.

You see, here's what I believe would have happened if those Dems that you rail against had voted as you think they should have. They would be out on their ears right now, and we would NOT control Congress. The Iraq war would have happened anyway. You might remember that the Bush admin was already floating the idea at the time of the IWR vote that they did not need Congressional approval in any case. Support for the Iraq war was high enough that they would have gone ahead, and they WOULD have gotten away with it.

Please don't accuse me of disrespect and then start cursing at me. That's so ridiculous I am embarrassed to point it out. Further, THINK about things, don't just react to them. Would it have made an iota of difference if Kerry had voted differently? Would the net effect have been positive or negative?

Things are never as black and white as we would like them to be. Winning at this game we call politics requires seeing not only the immediate effect of one's actions, but the effect it has down the road. The Dems were painted into a corner when that vote arose, put there by US, the American people. You need to be able to see that or we have little common ground upon which to carry out future discussion.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. your initial post
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 04:24 PM by AtomicKitten
was in response to mine to someone who had participated in a tag-team assault of another Durer; that was what I was addressing and defending. I am sorry if I offended you by the intensity of my response. This issue cuts to the core of some of us. Clarkie1 posted something he felt very strongly about and the way he was treated was a damn shame.

On edit: I, ahem, have thought long and hard about this issue, for years now. I wrote a political column during the run-up to the war and followed it step by step. You are certainly welcome to your opinion but I again have to ask you to tread carefully in suggesting I haven't thought about mine. Parsing words in an effort to mitigate the gravity of this vote is very accommodating, but considering the Dems had control of Congress at that time, it was my expectation that they not give Junior the bipartisan cover he sought with the vote. In other words, I expected them, all of them, not any one Senator in particular, to do the right thing on this grave issue of war and not consider their political backsides foremost in that deliberation.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
39. I've always wanted to amend that saying.
Those who do not learn FROM history are doomed to repeat it. You can learn names and dates all day long, but not learning the lessons from history, i.e. failed plans, etc., is what really gets you.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
42. The 22 good men and women that had the good sense to vote no
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 02:01 AM by AtomicKitten
are proof-positive that the OP is exactly correct. Moral clarity is not amenable to rationalization. Our lawmakers are the gatekeepers. If we don't hold them accountable, they are no longer relevant to our system of government.

Well done. K&R!!!
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Moral Clarity Is The Supreme Rationalization, Ma'am
Moral clarity, whatever you may view that as, had nothing to do with those twenty-two votes. Fifty-odd persons ran the policical calculations of their positions as professionals, the security of their seats, their view of the effect on the Party as a whole of the vote, the knowledge that the measure was certain to pass as there could be no doubt whatever several Democrats at least would endore the thing, and reached their own individual conclusion of what course was best for them, and acted accordingly.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Are you saying it's because they had nothing to lose?
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 02:14 AM by AtomicKitten
Damn, I still have stars in my eyes even thinking about Paul Wellstone. I will yield to the notion of some having a more calculated response, but I honestly believe there were many good men and women in the Senate that did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. Maybe my inherent cynicism isn't fully ripe quite yet, ha-ha-ha, but I still believe in decency and courage, and mostly that it was and is my EXPECTATION that that guide our representatives in government. The gravity of the issue of war demands nothing less.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Pretty Much, Ma'am
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. I don't find the observation entirely accurate.
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 02:43 AM by AtomicKitten
I simply do not believe it is true across the board. Nothing in life is ever that black and white. To state that every single Senator voted primarily mindful of their own self-interest and ultimately "no" because they had nothing to lose is one bold statement.

If what you are saying is true, we need a Katrina like event to wash out the dead wood in Congress and we must take the money out of politics and start over. But I digress.

I will yield to your suggestion that some of the "no" vote wasn't pure, but I don't believe all fit that category. My opinion for whatever it's worth is that it's simply statistically improbable. It doesn't really matter since a "no" vote was the right thing to do; how they arrived at it isn't nearly as important as the vote itself. And it pales in comparison to voting "yes" for any reason.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Paul Wellstone was beautiful
What did he know about Vietnam or Iraq?

He was a sincere champion of domestic plans.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. he was up for re-election and said he would vote "no" on the IWR
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 02:48 AM by AtomicKitten
He knew enough to do the right thing. Bless him.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1003-09.htm
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. He Was Indeed An Excellent Man, Ma'am
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. He was a beautiful man, Sir
None better anywhere.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
65. At least Kerry never wrote such praise of war as this by Clark.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0917-14.htm

What Must Be Done to Complete a Great Victory
by General Wesley Clark

Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled. Liberation is at hand. Liberation — the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice, erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions. Already the scent of victory is in the air. Yet a bit more work and some careful reckoning need to be done before we take our triumph.

As for the diplomacy, the best that can be said is that strong convictions often carry a high price. Despite the virtually tireless energy of their Foreign Offices, Britain and the US have probably never been so isolated in recent times. Diplomacy got us into this campaign but didn’t pull together the kind of unity of purpose that marked the first Gulf War. Relationships, institutions and issues have virtually all been mortgaged to success in changing the regime in Baghdad. And in the Islamic world the war has been seen in a far different light than in the US and Britain. Much of the world saw this as a war of aggression. They were stunned by the implacable determination to use force, as well as by the sudden and lopsided outcome.

Now the bills must be paid, amid the hostile image created in many areas by the allied action. Surely the balm of military success will impact on the diplomacy to come — effective power so clearly displayed always shocks and stuns. Many Gulf states will hustle to praise their liberation from a sense of insecurity they were previously loath even to express. Egypt and Saudi Arabia will move slightly but perceptibly towards Western standards of human rights.

Germany has already swung round from opposition to the war to approval. France will look for a way to bridge the chasm of understanding that has ripped at the EU. Russia will have to craft a new way forward, detouring away, at least temporarily, from the reflexive anti-Americanism which infects the power ministries. And North Korea will shudder, for it has seen on display an even more awesome display of power than it anticipated, and yet it will remain resolute in seeking leverage to assure its own regime’s survival. And what it produces, it sells."


Kerry is a very good man. I hate to see this stuff going on here at DU. We already helped in the destruction of someone else who loved their country and wanted the best for it.

Yes, Clark is right, we stung the world with our aggression...and now we are left with the consequences. He is speaking of the victory as "the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice."

He glorified war. Kerry never did that.



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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. OMG
You aren't kidding, are you? Well, he is a career military man, so we shouldn't be surprised. Its odd how some here are trying to make a military man into some kind of a *peacemaker*. Odd, odd, odd.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-04-06 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. You know what? I don't think this thread was required......
but then, I'm not the one that wrote it.

However,

There are 6 paragraphs missing between the first and 2nd paragraph you posted and you forgot to type "SNIP" to tell folks that, and there 6 other paragraphs after the last that you posted.



This article is always pulled out by Clark's distractor.....but never is it discussed in its entirety....only in the cut and paste aspect as seen here.

This article was NOT supportive of the war but rather questioning the fact that many were, at that time, saying "Mission Accomplished".

Most journalists and columnists, at the point that Clark wrote the article in April of 2003, very shortly after the fall of Bagdad, were bragging up and down the media that Mission had been accomplished; that Bush was brave and bold to have persevered under so much pressure, etc., etc...
{read such articles... http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030410-25191517.htm , http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030407-usia07.htm , http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030410-whitehouse-2.htm, http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030410-usia13.htm , http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030410-usia09.htm ,

Clark's article was clearly stating ..... Sure, it may appear that we are victorious in Bagdad, but hold on for just a minute now! Maybe it will be said that said that Bush and Blair stuck to their guns in the face of much opposition, and maybe Baghdad has fallen, but winning this war would take a much more than this.
(Clark's article was reminiscent of this one.... http://www.counterpunch.org/grossman04102003.html dated the same day)

Clark warned about the looting, the mayhem and stated what needed to be done from a strategic point in order to keep Chaos from breaking out. He points out that the Weapons of Mass destructions had not been found, and any goals set by Bush and Blair, i.e., Democracy in Iraq; and stability of the ME hadn't yet happen...and basically stating that we were NOT to yet REJOICE, cause the shit wasn't over......

Most folks , at the point that Clark wrote the article in April of 2003, very shortly after the fall of Bagdad were bragging up and down the media that Mission had been accomplished. This article clearly was stating that .....just a minute now!

"there’s the matter of returning order and security. The looting has to be stopped. The institutions of order have been shattered. And there are scant few American and British forces to maintain order, resolve disputes and prevent the kind of revenge killings that always mark the fall of autocratic regimes. The interim US commander must quickly deliver humanitarian relief and re-establish government for a country of 24 million people the size of California. Already, the acrimony has begun between the Iraqi exile groups, the US and Britain, and local people.

and here....same article (of which you quoted two sentences), he gives full credit to the military for the fall of bagdad....

It’s to the men and women who fought it out on the arid highways, teeming city streets and crowded skies that we owe the greatest gratitude. All volunteers, they risked their lives as free men and women, because they believed in their countries and answered their calls. They left families and friends behind for a mission uncertain. They didn’t do it for the glory or the pittance of combat pay. Sadly, some won’t return — and they, most of all, need to be honored and remembered.

In the following paragraph, he is providing possibilities as to what will occur.....(one happened; the strive by Al-Qaeda to mobilize their recruiting efforts, as well as the lasting humilitation of Iraq....the other options did not).....but does NOT give credit for the policy that got us into Iraq, nor does he paint the future as very rosy....

The real questions revolve around two issues: the War on Terror and the Arab-Israeli dispute. And these questions are still quite open. Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and others will strive to mobilize their recruiting to offset the Arab defeat in Baghdad. Whether they will succeed depends partly on whether what seems to be an intense surge of joy travels uncontaminated elsewhere in the Arab world. And it also depends on the dexterity of the occupation effort.

The following passage found at the end of same article summarizes the main point that Clark was articulating in this article written at a time when many thought that Iraq was a "mission accomplished"....

"But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven’t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed."--Wes Clark

Here is are past DU posts analyzing the article as a whole as opposed to looking at the snippets without context of what was really being said...:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2482830&mesg_id=2484142

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2482830&mesg_id=2484240

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=321522



Roger L. Simon posts an op-ed Wesley Clark wrote on April 10th of last year, and claims that it proves that Clark supported the war. Had I read the op-ed quickly without knowing anything about Clark, I might very well have concluded that he was expressing qualified support for the war. However even a passably careful reading of the thing reveals that it fails to provide significant evidence that Clark supported the war. Everything Clark writes is consistent with opposition to the war--though perhaps combined with recognition that the world is better without Saddam and a desire to to portray the whole enterprise in a good light. All of these things are, of course, consistent with thinking that the self-defense case for war was a crock and that the decision to go to war was a sub-optimal one.

The most important passage for those who would portray the essay as strong (or even conclusive) evidence that Clark was for the war are as follows:
"Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled. Liberation is at hand. Liberation ? the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice, erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions. Already the scent of victory is in the air. Yet a bit more work and some careful reckoning need to be done before we take our triumph."

Needless to say we have to resist the urge to strain for a non-pro-war message here. Intellectual integrity is in short enough supply these days. Our question is not can we force a non-pro-war reading on this essay? but rather is there a sensible non-pro-war reading of it?

Well, I was against the war (torn, but just barely more against it than for it by H-hour), but I could have written this op-ed (er, were I smarter...and if I knew more...and if I were a better writer...and...oh, you get the picture...). I was happy to see the tyrant deposed, the statue come down, etc. And who could NOT think of liberations past? The only part of this passage I probably would not have written is this part:
"Liberation--the powerful balm that...erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions."
(Note: these are not drudgelipses--they indicate that I have elided words rather than pages.)
This proposition is almost certainly true--liberation (like success in general) erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions--but I wouldn't have written that because it could easily be interpreted to mean that the war was a smart idea, or that this success should embolden us to undertake more actions of this kind in the future. But that's not what the sentence means. On the face of it, it's not a claim about what our reactions ought to be, but, rather, a claim about what kind of reactions we tend to have to such events--it, for example, makes us forget our doubts, it doesn't make them unreasonable (so it doesn't make forgetting them reasonable). If we are being urged to do anything here, it is to resist indulging too much in these reactions, to sober up a bit and contemplate the task ahead. In fact, the following seems to me to be a perfectly sensible gloss on what Clark wrote:
The scenes from Baghdad inspire us. They make us think of the fall of the Wall and the defeat of Milosovic. It's good to see those statues of that SOB smacked with shoes. Liberation is at hand. In general, liberation makes sacrifice worthwhile, makes you forget whatever doubts you had about the undertaking, and emboldens you to try other hard and risky endeavors. But, um, let's not get too excited yet--there's there's more work and more thinking to do.
I want to make it clear--on a first read, that's not how I interpreted it (I didn't know how to interpret it)--but we usually don't interpret things correctly on a first read if they are even moderately subtle or complex. And my guess is that what Clark is trying to do here is rather subtle and difficult--he's trying to counsel caution at a time when celebration seems to be in order, and he's trying to do it without sounding like a nattering naybob of negativism.

The rest of the op-ed is consistent with this interpretation. It praises the soldiers who carried out the battle plan, points out the good things about the planning and execution of the war, and notes the rough spots too. It's a sober and balanced assessment of the war, in my opinion. Clark notes problems without carping and dispenses praise when appropriate and without fawning. But there is nothing in it that shows or even strongly suggests that Clark thought that the war was a good idea. (Though there are some passages that can kinda sorta be read that way with a little effort.)
At the end of the essay, Clark does write:
"As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt."
Again, this might rather naturally be taken to indicate approval of the war, but it probably shouldn't be. Resolve in the face of doubt, if it is a virtue at all, is a virtue even when one has undertaken an enterprise in error. (I myself am not sure that it is a virtue at all, but that's probably just one difference between a pointy-headed geek such as myself and a four-star general...) Again, Clark is apparently simply giving credit where credit is due. But saying "you stuck to that project with admirable resolve" obviously does not mean the same thing as "boy, you sure were smart to undertake that project."
And note that Clark continues:
"And especially Mr Blair, who skillfully managed tough internal politics, an incredibly powerful and sometimes almost irrationally resolute ally, and concerns within Europe."
So even (approximately) the resolve Clark has just praised he now characterizes as "almost irrational." So if these two components taken together constitute a compliment, it is (re: Blair at least) a highly attenuated one at best. Hardly unalloyed approval.
And I think that the end of the essay provides reasonably strong confirmation of my reading:
"Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced. And more tough questions remain to be answered.
Is this victory? Certainly the soldiers and generals can claim success. And surely, for the Iraqis there is a new-found sense of freedom. But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven?t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed."

3.
Well, you probably know the kinds of things I'm going to whine about at this point. But I haven't slept in quite some time (note the crappy writing...sorry!), so I'll keep the whines short. Go back and read David Brooks's comments on The Great Unhinging (or better, of course, my own comments on those comments!). What we have here is probably a case of Mr. Simon seeing what he wanted to see and/or what he expected to see, plus perhaps the effects of political polarization and the pervasive influence of the gotcha atmosphere. And maybe something else I've been meaning to note as well: everything happens so fast in the blogosphere...speed is of the essence...nobody thinks very much about what they write. It's getting to be like academic philosophy--people get famous by saying outrageous things that they haven't really thought through very carefully, and then lots of other people waste their time going through the initial poorly-thought-out position explaining why it's wrong. Note that I don't mean to insult Mr. Simon here, he's just doing what what's done around these parts. But we should all do less of it. Of course I may be the one who's wrong here, but you can be the judge of that.


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