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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 07:53 PM
Original message
Happy Birthday, Baby Jesus
Edited on Sun Dec-17-06 08:40 PM by NanceGreggs
Happy Birthday, Baby Jesus
By Nancy Greggs

So it’s that time of year again, the season of giving, of sharing time with family and friends; a time of laughter and yuletide spirit, and gearing up for the War on Christmas, an event quickly outpacing the more traditional seasonal rituals in popularity among the citizenry.

And make no mistake about it, there is indeed a War on Christmas. But contrary to popular belief, it is not being waged by Jews, or Muslims, agnostics or atheists – it is in fact being waged by so-called Christians who have replaced the observance of the birth of Christ with a celebration of Consumerism, as dictated by the likes of Bill O’Reilly and his right-wing ilk.

Although I converted to Judaism years ago, I was born and raised a Catholic. So when it comes to the true meaning of Christmas, I know whereof I speak.

I remember the nuns, who taught at the Catholic school I attended, delivering the lecture every December about the concept of “Keeping Christ in Christmas”. And as I recall it, there was nothing said about shopping at the stores that said “Merry Christmas” as opposed to “Happy Holidays”.

In my childhood – and, I suspect, in the hearts of those who are still good Christians today – where one spent their money was no more in keeping with the true meaning of Christmas than marshmallow chickadees were in keeping with the observance of Easter Sunday.

I still fondly remember the suggestions of good women like Sister St. Andrew, who told us that the ultimate gift we could lay at the feet of the Baby Jesus was doing something for someone else. She reminded us that perhaps a bit of that Christmas money from Grandma might find its way into the poor box at the back of the church, reminded us that we might suggest to our parents that one less toy for ourselves could mean a toy for another child whose parents were going through hard times, reminded us that being nice to the neighbor down the street – the one who always yelled at you when you hadn’t really done anything – might spread a little Peace on Earth in the spirit of the season.

Unfortunately, Sister St. Andrew is gone – and so is the lesson she, and other good Christians, tried to instill.

As we fast-forward to Christmas 2006 and the war being waged upon it, good Christians are being admonished to prepare for battle by arming themselves with cash and credit cards, prepared to defend the celebration of the Prince of Peace by spending their last penny at retailers who sell Christmas trees rather than Xmas trees, who greet the sheep about to be fleeced with “Merry Christmas” – instead of the offensively more-inclusive “Happy Holidays” in recognition of the fact that there is more than one religion that celebrates a holyday at this time of year.

The poor, the homeless, the sick, the friendless? Well, there’s just no time to consider such expendable people as good Christians shop-till-they-drop in all of the right places, and plunge themselves into debt in honor of He who taught us to value generosity above earthly possessions – because that’s what the season is all about, isn’t it?

Besides, if those wretched poor people were true Christians, they’d be at the mall – the one with the “Merry Christmas” signs at every entrance – spending their cash alongside the rest of the alleged Jesus-lovers, instead of whining about the fact that they have no jobs, and therefore no money to spend on good Christian-promoting purchases like PlayStations and high-definition TV.

As unfortunate as it is, I suppose it was inevitable that the pseudo-Christians spawned by the political climate of the Bush administration would be in combat mode at all times. What self-professed follower of the Prince of Peace is not totally into war these days, prepared to do battle against sin-laden liberal ideas like Peace on Earth and Good Will towards men? What is the point of celebrating the birth of He who was born to teach love towards all mankind, if his staunchest supporters can’t rejoice in torturing and killing those Children of God who steadfastly refuse to worship Him in a church rather than a mosque?

In view of the escalating War on Christmas, perhaps it is time to rethink some of our traditional observances. Shouldn’t a “Charlie Brown Christmas” be rewritten, so that we can all admire rather than bemoan the fact that Snoopy ‘went commercial’ by decking his doghouse with energy-hogging lights purchased at a retail outlet that proudly displayed a Nativity scene instead some non-Christian sign that simply said "Peace"?

And what about a re-adaptation of “A Christmas Carol”, where Scrooge politically-correctly reminds the Ghost of Christmas Past that if there actually were enough prisons and workhouses to keep the rabble off the street, good Christians would not have to be impeded on their quest for finding the perfect gift for someone who doesn’t need it, instead of being reminded of those who are in real need?

I, for one, have to confess that when it comes to the War on Christmas, I am just another conscientious objector. I refuse to be offended by being wished a Merry Christmas even though I celebrate Hanukah. I will donate to my local food bank instead of buying an iPod for someone who doesn’t need one. I will pray for peace, even though I have been told that waging war is more in keeping with the season.

In any event, I just want to wish you a Happy Birthday, Baby Jesus. I hope you like war, intolerance, prejudice and violence, because that’s what you’re getting from your so-called followers – again.


Edited to add: "In keeping with the situation" (a line of dialogue from "A Christmas Carol"), I just sent this to Bill O'Reilly -- THAT should keep his yuletide bright!
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Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well done, Nancy!
:toast:
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks. Good points in a good read. nt
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes yes yes!
Like you, I was raised in a Christian church and later moved on to another faith. What I recall about Christmas was always taking money and putting it in the Salvation Army bucket-because I knew not everyone could have a Christmas unless I did. I recall my mother and other teachers getting together and buying gifts for a struggling family. I recall going around singing carols to different people-some of them old and lonely folks my mother knew. I recall getting out the electric bubble lights we put in the window, and singing "Silent Night" with all the lights out but them. I remember being told that the love behind the gift was more important than the cost.

Thank you for this post, a gift you have given us during this Hanukah season! May a Great Miracle Happen There-being all our hearts, that they may be opened to kindness and peace.

Shalom.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Please excuse the two-minute delay ...
... in responding to your post, my dearest ayeshahaquqqa -- it was just enough time to stop crying like an idiot.

"I remember being told that the love behind the gift was more important than the cost." I remember that, too -- and I wonder where that true meaning of the season has gone?

"May a Great Miracle Happen There - being all our hearts, that they may be opened to kindness and peace." What an incredibly poetic summary of the prayer of Hanukkah and Christmas combined!

Shalom to you and yours, and may peace and brotherhood be with all of our brethren around the world ...
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I am honored
and always honored to read your posts. If you don't mind a phonetic translation of Hebrew, I would leave you with this, an old Jewish song that is now a Dance of Universal Peace:

Heenay, heenay, mahtov, mahtov, umah nayemm,
Shevet, shevet aheem gam yahad.

(Oh how and good and Oh how pleasent
It is for brothers and for sisters to dwell as One.)
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thank you, sister ...
Although my ability to speak Hebrew is tentative at best, there is ONE prayer I commited to memory in the original Hebrew (which I will not attempt to trans-literate here), and which I say each day:

"Blessed is God, who created the universe, who made us, who sustains us, and who brings friends together to share in the joys of each day."

Today, my dear friend, YOUR words have been my greatest joy ...
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. The best Christmas gift? Give the gift of truth...
Camp Democracy DVD and Jesselyn Radack's The Canary in the CoalMine; Blowing the Whistle on the torture of 'American Taliban' John Walker Lindh

http://www.patriotictruthteller.net
http://www.campdemocracy.org
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nance GREAT as usual..I too was raised in the Catholic church when it was liberal
when the Brothers Berrigan were in the news and when our Christmas Pagents were about love and tolerance and not consumerism and bigoted hatred.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. I never knew...
... a liberal Catholic church, so in that I envy you.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Republicans declare war on happy holidays...
They can't let us be happy, they want us to have pissed off and fearful holidays.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yes, sadly you are right ...
Perhaps they could change the color-coded Terror Alert System to shades of red and green for the month of December?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
32. When they turn on Festivus, let me know
That will be the last straw.
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R and thank you, Nance!
I was raised Catholic too, but I guess it didn't take very well.
Once again...ya done good!



When I have to go shopping I buy something for the Salvation Army people ringing the bells...
a candy bar or a hot pie and a cup of tea.
It gets COLD here and that has got to be a thankless job sometimes...
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Great idea to pass along, badgerpup!
I do the same with the hot-dog vendors outside the shopping centers here in the downtown area. I know many of them are braving the elements on the street in hopes of making a few extra dollars for their families during the busy shopping season.

An offer to pop inside and buy a cup of coffee or some hot chocolate warms the heart of both purchaser and recipient -- and the generosity of spirit is downright contagious!

And don't forget the cops who stand at intersections to direct the extra holiday traffic for Midnight Mass and other Christmas church services in your neighborhood -- a cup of hot coffee, served with a smile and a wish for a Happy New Year, never goes unappreciated.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well said.
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. Beautiful as usual, Nance.
I always enjoy reading your posts. I find it ironic that these supposed christians (small "c" intended) are following pre-Christian traditions like holly, fir trees and mistletoe. It seems that there is so much idolatry in "Christianity" these days. Wasn't that forbidden in the Ten Commandments? ;)
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. What makes it even more ironic...
is that the Christmas tree originated as a pagan symbol, and you know what these people think about pagans.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. And, didn't Happy Holidays & Season's Greetings
Start from religious Christian conservatives who, years ago, decried the consumerism that was associated with Christmas? So, in order to dis-associate the commercialism that had become so associated with the birth of Christ, they started saying Happy Holidays?
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wow. n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. *ponders if he should point out that there's no historical evidence of a birth to observe*
...

Happy holidays!

:D

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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. is ok
this Buddhist family is sharing the holiday with our Jewish-convert friend, by celebrating the return of the Light.

(have holiday however you wish...return of the light, birth of the sun, birth of the son, etc. ... is all about hope and goodness)
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. Nance, Nance Nance! I bring you tidings of great joy!
The White House is ready to announce that Lee Hamilton & James Baker will be chairing the Christmas Study Group, to announce a plan sometime in the new year that will guide the nation through the War on Christmas.

Joy to the world. Stay the (shopping) concourse.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Not the eagerly-anticipated CSG Report?!?
The PERFECT stocking-stuffer for the right-winger who already has (literally) everything! Aside from another tax-cut, who could ask for anything more?
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well... maybe drilling in ANWR
beside that, can't think of a thing!

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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. You raise some valid points. My wife's pastor (UCC)
would concur on the main issues here. I am of Norwegian Lutheran background (some what more liberal than other Lutheran synods) but evolved out of the faith entirely into atheist anarchism BUT one can never quit being of one's own culture and what I do is to remember the generous aspects and the real LONGING for peace on Earth I also understood was present in the Christmas Eve and Christmas worship services and the satisfaction with the less costly and consumer driven present-giving of those days.(The late 1940's and earlier 1950's). My grandfather always joked about getting presents since he did not really desire much of anything but was simply glad to have all the family together. I miss my kind and civilized and truly Christian grandparents a lot.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. Brilliant, lets us know if O'Lielly replies..........
he forgot his Catholic upbringing.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. Merry Commercialism and Happy New Bills, everyone! n/t
n/t
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. Anyone who expects reasonableness from Christians
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 02:56 PM by Alcibiades
is bound to be disappointed. For years, we (the left) have been accused of waging war on Christianity, and today, on Christmas, despite the fact that its glorious paganism makes it one of the few Christian holidays I can celebrate without too much cognitive dissonance.

"He" wasn't born to simply to teach us love, as he brought not peace, but a sword, to split father from son, etc. Christ was a divider, not a uniter. Anyway, Christians today ignore the New Testament, preferring the God of wrath to the God of love.

They can all go and pray, for all I care. I'm sick of them, and am tired of tolerance toward them. We don't tolerate dangerous beliefs such as Holocaust denial, and we shouldn't tolerate the dangerous belief of these nut cases, either, who believe, with the incantation of the right magical formulas, that the most heinous murderer can gain the forgiveness of the lamb of God. If they think that the Bible is the proper guide for all things, then they can give up their automobiles, because there's not a word about internal combustion in that poorly written screed they worship. Reasonableness be damned. Anyone so unreasonable as to believe in Jehovah, or Yahweh, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost, or Caspar the Friendly Ghost, doesn't deserve to be treated as sane, let alone reasonable.

In this, as in so many other things, Mark Twain is an sagacious guide: Christians are to be held up to ridicule as hypocrites, liars and fantasists.
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everstudy Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Nice...
"I'm sick of them, and am tired of tolerance toward them."
~ Thus the perceived "war on Christmas"

"We don't tolerate dangerous beliefs such as Holocaust denial,"
~ Yes we do.... it's called 'freedom of speech'. Anyone has the right to believe what they will and to open their mouths and make a fool of themselves.

"...that the most heinous murderer can gain the forgiveness of the lamb of God."
~ You understand little of Christianity then.

"If they think that the Bible is the proper guide for all things, then they can give up their automobiles, because there's not a word about internal combustion..."
~ The Bible says little of nuclear physics or civil engineering, yet Christians believe in both.

"Anyone so unreasonable as to believe in Jehovah, or Yahweh, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost, or Caspar the Friendly Ghost, doesn't deserve to be treated as sane, let alone reasonable."
~ Maybe we should be rounded up into re-education camps until we are deemed safe and sane.

~Everstudy

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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Welcome to DU!
Actually, the war on Christmas began not with anything I said or did, but with the indignation of some rich, powerful folks in the right-wing media elite, who became indignant at the prospect of being wished "Happy Holidays" rather than a "Merry Christmas." (More accurately, they perceived that this was an issue that they could fabricate to energize their base for political purposes). Which is, in any event, beside the point. What I am driving at is that, when we (lefties) respond to silly charges such as the "War on Christmas," we do so with appeals to reason, with rational argumentation. Christians specifically deny that reason should be the arbiter of truth, however, so our appeals inevitably fall on deaf ears. For this reason, I've suggested a different tactic, i.e. ridicule and sarcasm. Most Christians believe the silly things they do because these beliefs are customary and respectable. Ridicule has the effect--I hope--of exposing the truth that a belief in the supernatural (to put it another way, in magic) is ridiculous.

Insofar as the question of toleration is concerned, I am using the term to denote the position most liberals take with regard to religion: that it is a purely private matter and, as such, we should not hold it up to ridicule, but should accord it the same respect we would any other sincerely held belief. I question whether this is still useful, because American Christians have themselves abandoned the tolerance that once characterized their thoughts and actions, and because it has become evident that these beliefs are no longer simply a private matter. I am not suggesting the creation of an atheistic orthodoxy sanctioned by the state, but that we should work to create a culture wherein belief in Jehovah becomes as unfashionable as believing that it is OK to litter, that it should be up to the individual whether or not to wear a safety belt, or that smoking is harmless. My view of the new American Christian orthodoxy is borrowed from Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

As far as I understand it, Christians believe that, so long as a murderer sincerely recites the mystical formula "I accept Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and savior," he is saved. Maybe you belong to some sect wherein this is not true, but as far as I understand it, American Christian orthodoxy holds that no one is beyond redemption. I think that's absurd, but it is a theologically "correct" statement of the position of most Christians. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

Actually, no, sorry, Christians don't believe in physics. Perhaps they do believe in civil engineering (a subject that is, at least tangentially, mentioned in the Bible). Modern physics suggests a cosmology that is rejected by Christians. Anyway, you may believe in these things, but the people who claim to speak for Christians don't. According to "A Manifesto for the Christian Church, "We affirm that the Bible is not only God's statements to us regarding religion, salvation, eternity, and righteousness, but also the final measurement and depository of certain fundamental facts of reality and basic principles that God wants all mankind to know in the spheres of law, economics, business, education, arts and communication, medicine, psychology and science." I would praise you for rejecting this statement, but, before rejecting it, you should know that the 107 learned church fathers who signed onto it would say that to do so would place your immortal soul in danger.

I don't think Christians need to be reeducated, because it would seem that many have not been educated in the first place. My suggestion was to use ridicule and sarcasm, not to round people up and put them into camps. Indeed, I think that would be counterproductive, as Christians seem to need persecution to reinforce their own in-group/out-group dynamic--in the absence of persecution, they feel the need to invent persecution, and make even more ridiculous claims in so doing. I cannot imagine how silly they would get if faced with actual persecution.
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Somawas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. I went to a mall this weekend
and had exactly this reaction. There is no Christ in Christmas any more. The name of the season should be changed to "retail" or "Consumptivus." But Christmas? I think not so much.
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NoAmericanTaliban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. Where would Jesus shop? Would he use Visa or Master Card?
Would Jesus shop on-line & if he did what would his logon name be? What brand of plasma tv would he buy? These are the important religious questions of the day. Isn't that what X-Mass is all about - spending as much money as you can on material means and running up your credit cards. This is what a number of Christian Right see as the real meaning of Christmas. True Christian ideas and consumerism are on opposites tracks - but you counldn't tell that by what O'Lielly has to say.

I believe Jesus would spend the time in a soup kitchen feeding the poor.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. "I believe Jesus would spend the time in a soup kitchen ...
... feeding the poor."

That's kind of the way I picture it, too.

I realize Jesus was known for his non-violent approach - but I'd also like to think that on his way to the soup kitchen, he'd stop off and smack Bill O'Reilly upside the head on national TV.

A girl can have her Christmas wishes ...
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Jesus would probably feed the entire needs on one can of Campbell's
and a loaf of Wonder Bread and a can of sardines :)

I grew up in a fairly, i suppose, liberalish church. My parents let me stop goign when i was 11, and I was glad to have the time free. I went through all kinds of religious phases. I read the "Satanic Bible". A good laugh as well as a interesting read. Many of my feelings about "the church" were confirmed, but I felt the strong doing what they felt was too over the top for me. After all all my problems in life had been because many 'christian families' let their kids bully me all they wanted because I was a bit off.

I looked into Buddhism, Taoism, and "paganism". I dated a girl who was Wiccan for a while and found a lot of sense and peace in that belief system. I also learned the rest of the sad truth about christianity. That it's ALL stolen from Wicca, and related nature faiths.

"Birth of Christ". Actually that's a totally wrong statement. The name Jesus, is a Greek bastardization of Joshua, his Israeli name. "The Christ" - Christos - means anointed one (assumably by god) is a title, not a last name. His name was probably Joshua ben Joseph of the house of David.

He was NOT born in December, but in the spring, or so. The holiday commemorating his birth was MOVED to December by Constantine (?) to help facilitate more conversions to the holy roman christian faith. The cathonic church, actually has a small holy day for teh actual assumed birth time, but I don't know what/when it is.

Now.. Back to my faith... By way of listening to Berny Ward on KGO I rediscovered my faith. I listened to the audio book, don't know much about the bible by Kenneth C Davies (HIGHLY recommended reading/hearing). I then decided to sit down and read old and new testaments.

I sat through as much of the post gospels as I could stand and came to a realizations. Everything PAST the gospels, MUST be ignored. Nearly everything 'Jesus" says is destroyed, or erased - in meaning and intent - by the mad writing of Saul - I refuse to call him paul for he is a true heretic IMHO - this is a horrible lonely mad. his writings are masochistic, and hateful towards women and anyone not of proper ... whatever. I read more hate than love in his letters.

And I reject Revelations completely. Aside from being lifted nearly word for word from - I think it was Leviticus? - the old testament, it depicts 'Jesus' completely opposite from his actual person. This was a mad man who was beyond furious with Rome (a sentiment well shared back then) and simply wanted to write revenge. I can see how this piece of writing was well liked, it was a catharsis, and gave the people something to help vent their anger, and it probably kept Rome together for another 100 years of so.

One last point, The line of david was crazy rich. I mean.. LOADED! In addition being a carpenter was THE profession to have back then. This entire, "Oh Jesus was poor" garbage is just that.

Many scholars thinks most of his 'miracles' were either misunderstandings, or complete PR. The sad reality is that people -in general- NEED miracles to help them believe. I don't. I think his message is more than powerful enough. And reading the story's in the old testament again, I see where he's coming from. Look at the larger message of the old stories. They are about love, forgiveness, and caring for one's family.

I find it disturbing that the Gnostic gospels are somewhat hard to find and have all been banned officially by the Roman Catholic church. The truth will set us free.

Knowledge is the ultimate gift of god.

A quick side note. 'Jesus' has been violent. Remember the coin changers and markets on the temple grounds. "This is the house of my FATHER!" It is not too hard to believe him giving Reichies a severe tongue lashing. "You are whitened sepulcher. White on the outside, and DEAD on the inside, you pharasies!"
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KKKarl is an idiot Donating Member (662 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
35. What an awesome post
You know more about Christianity than most evangelicals do. I am saving this post to read every time the holidays roll around.
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