Who is really crazy?

Below is an (abbreviated) editorial in the OK Gazette by Robin Meyers of the Mayflower UCC of OKC.

A month & a half ago, something happened that was as disturbing as it was nearly invisible. Malachi Rischer, a 52-yr-old experimental musician from Chicago, killed himself to protest the war in Iraq. At 6:30 a.m. in the morning on Nov. 3, he followed w/morbid care a plan to end his life as the ultimate protest. He left a suicide note to explain his actions, set up a video camera to record the gruesome act, stood at a busy downtown Chicago off-ramp, poured gasoline on himself and then set himself on fire at the height of the morning rush hour.

In his statement, he wrote" "If I am required to pay for your barbaric war, I choose not to live in your world. I refuse to finance the mass murder of innocent civilians, who did nothing to threaten our country...If one death can atone for anything, in any small way, to say to the world: I apologize for what we have done to you, I am ashamed for the mayhem & turmoil caused by my country."

Apparently, Mr. Rischer had planned everything carefully, except for the one thing he could not have imagined: that nobody would notice. Indeed, that nobody was listening.

A reporter pieced the facts together & word began to spread. The bloggers took it from there -mostly to speculate on just how crazy Rischer was. The consensus was that Mr. Rischer was crazy--because crazy is as crazy does, & the whole thing is "just a shame". But if he is crazy, then what would you call this war & our ability to drive right past it on our way to the mall? How can we play Christmas carols when born-again chicken hawks have turned Baghdad into hell on earth, & then pretend to pass judgment on the mental condition of someone who took his own life just to try to wake us up?

...

Before you pass judgment on Risc her, let's confront something even more frightening: that the president who led us into this murder & mayhem is the one who is hopelessly deluded. That madness has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and would have us believe that you can defeat terrorism by breeding terrorists.

Now that's crazy.

The idea was that Jesus could do anything: he had the power.

But he didn't save himself, did he?

So was he crazy to let himself be hung out to dry? Or did he make a statement that reverberates to this day?

Something to think about as you read the following exchange.

:shrug:

if you believe the story.

He had the choice to save himself. He chose to die.

This is silly. I for one am not going to have this discussion other than to say Jesus did not "choose" to die, God sent Jesus to Earth to die for our sins. Where was Jesus' choice in that? If you're of the view that God and Jesus are one and the same being, then He did not die unless you're saying that God is dead since Jesus died on the cross ... and was resurrected, so really He cheated death anyway. Then there's the problem that Jesus was executed. Your notion is silly because following your logic suggests that ALL executions are suicides, that the condemned "chose" to get put on death row when they committed murder, defying the knowledge that the death penalty was their likely future if caught. Jesus "chose" to get crucified when He did not run, defying the knowledge that He would be executed by the Romans.

Unfortunately, neither you nor Mr. Rischer nor any other Human torch is going to be coming back from the charcoal pit nor are any Romans after you, so let this line of discussion rest. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

you are going in so many circles you must be dizzy.

If Jesus is as they say he was, he could have easily avoided that fate. But he didn't so he gave his life for a greater good. An imagined greater good, the same as our fellow Rischer.

So, was he crazy? Was Jesus crazy? Something to consider, eh?

I am not religious, but yet, I do know the difference between "the son of God" Jesus, and people who are desperate to be martyrs. The difference is that Jesus was an instrument of the "Holy Father".
Jesus is the legendary Son of God. Average Joes protesting ANYTHING cannot claim to be "son/daughter of God".
I don't claim to know a lot about Christianity.

Rischer ended his life. He's dead. He isn't around to protest anything, anymore. He's dead, so he can't make people remember him, even if he wants them to.

Most people commit suicide from depression. That is the only reason I could ever understand.

And the socio/political climate of the era in which he lived was a factor also. Then there was that whole 'risen from the grave' thing. I think that made a big impression, if I recall correctly.

The decision to allow his life to expire is the focus of this here thread.

He made a conscious decision to allow his death. Was he crazy to do so? All he could know was that his death might make a difference, same as for this man Rischer.

The question to be answered: was Jesus crazy?

Crazy to have allowed his death?

Would it have been not crazy to carry on toward some other end other than the one he did die for?

Edit:
The question IS whether Jesus Freaks condone people to commit suicide for acceptance in the name of Jesus.

Really, like needlessly wasting your own life will help stop the needless wasting of so many other lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. Way to contribute to the cause and make us all look batshit crazy like you, dumbass. :eyes: :thumbsdown:

I guarantee you one thing: In 40 years, you will no more forget the self-immolation of Malachi Rischer than I have forgotten the self-immolation of Thich Quang Duc.

Without Googling (or any other kind of Internet or library search) any of them, do you remember any of these? What were they protesting?

Alice Herz
Norman Morrison
Roger Allen LaPorte
George Winne Jr.
Ryszard Siwiec
Jan Palach
Jan Zajíc
Joseba Elosegui
Kostas Georgakis
Romas Kalanta
Oskar Brüsewitz
Rolf Günther
Cheng Nan-jung
Rajiv Goswami
Greg Levey
Kathy Change
Mohamed Alanssi
Roland Weißelberg

And I am under no obligation to be quizzed by you in order to establish my cred.

But thanks for playing.

...over the Vietnam War. Or the guy that torched himself in protest over the first Gulf War 10 years ago. Or the terrorism informant that did it near the White House two years ago and was saved by Secret Service.



So much for your steel trap memory. :eyes:

But I do detest your cavalier dismissal of Rischer's statement and intent, whether you agree with his method or not. Who are you to roll your eyes at anyone? What gives you the right to judge -- or the omniscience to know what is in another man's soul?

Disagree with him. Condemn his action. But have the decency to believe his words and respect his intent.

Odd, I don't recall having said "Oh gee, what a loon. Protesting the war." I seem to have posted that he didn't help the cause with that action, that he needlessly wasted his life...

...instead of living and helping in more "lively" ways. I guess that because I didn't spell out the "living and helping" part there that it was too subtle for you. I'll remember for the next time I need to state the obvious.

...an awful lot of bullshit in your attempt at diversion. Why do you get so defensive when someone disagrees with you?

I'm not embarrassed at all. I simply disagree with you. I don't like your attitude. I don't like the way you judge others. I don't like your air of superiority. I don't like your defensiveness. I think you are projecting. I know you are insulting my intelligence, and I am convinced you know it too.

And with that, I am putting you on ignore, because you are having far too much fun engaging me in your little game. I will interact with anyone who genuinely wants to debate, no matter how much we disagree -- but I don't engage in pissing contests.

May you chill out -- and soon.

...in a most constructive and useful way. Remember me in 40 years, won't you?

Once a person has died, they pretty much stop doing memorable things.

And I don't remember any of those other people you mentioned.

...I still had to look it up. The only reason it sounded familiar was by association: I knew the famous image and the place sounded Southeast Asian. It was indeed a Buddhist monk; he was protesting the oppression of Buddhism in Vietnam prior to the War and there were copycats.

Your blatant disregard for human life and feelings is obvious. Empathy and compassion are not dirty words you know.

Two kinds of people in this world commit suicide: The terminally ill who are well-justified in wanting to die with dignity and in as little pain as possible ... and cowards. Guess which your hero is. Not only is he a coward, whether intentional or not, he helped further the negative view people have of liberals and the anti-war movement in general. And what of his blatant disregard for his own life and the feelings of his friends, family, and music fans? Obviously, empathy and compassion were dirty words to him.

The notion that people who commit suicide are "cowards" and that they need to concern themselves more with the reactions of others than themselves (for their own lives don't matter as far as conservatives are concerned) is a purely conservative stance. A a liberal would take a very different position on the matter.

Liberalism asserts that a person's life belongs only to him or her, and no other person has the right to force their own ideals that life must be lived. Rather, only the individual involved can make such decision, and whatever decision he or she does make, should be respected.

Philosopher and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz goes further, arguing that suicide is the most basic right of all. If freedom is self-ownership, ownership over one's own life and body, then the right to end that life is the most basic of all. If others can force you to live, you do not own yourself and belong to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_views_of_suicide

As I already stated, those that have terminal illness are well-justified. Where, pray tell, did I suggest everyone - or even anyone - should be prevented from committing suicide of their own volition? I dare you to find such a post... and for you to suggest that Malachi Rischer WASN'T concerned more with the reactions of others than of himself is pretty stupid. His torching himself was ENTIRELY about illiciting reactions in others; that was the whole point of his protest, duh. :eyes:

Oh, and fuck you for implying I'm a freeper. Who are you to decide was is and is not pure? Isn't that a predominantly conservative trait? Pot, meet BuffyLikesPuttingHerFootInHerMouth.

Hopefully somebody gave you the gift of anger management classes. :yoiks:

...and tries to throw it back on me. My anger level is fine and calm, my patience for crap isn't.

When multiple people notice the same issue with you maybe it's not the other people with the "bull", but you.

It was your hateful angry tirade that started these encounters, and every response you've made has been full of vitriol. Funny how you claim to be calm. If those posts are indicative of calm I'd hate to see angry.

...because neither of your many, multiple two people so far who have amazingly by total random chance disagreed with me have found anything. Either that, or no one really wants to get that involved for fear of not being in perfect lock-step agreement with you two and your apparent position that this guy was a saint and should be awarded a Congressional Medal of Honor or something. There are probably people who agree with me, but would not have put it so bluntly or have had the interest to continue as long as I have (don't worry, I'm losing interest).



Here's an idea: As you celebrate the holidays, spend a moment to think about Mr. Rischer's loved ones. He couldn't be bothered to do so - too busy committing the ultimate selfish act: Suicide Because I Can, Not Because I'm Terminally Ill - so it's up to the rest of us. Happy Holidays and may all your days be bright ... hopefully lit by loved ones who aren't on fire or otherwise committing suicide, like so many do this time of the year.

I've never seen such vitriol spewing forth around suicide from a liberal. The guy's got issues.

...and my liberal credentials are yet again questioned? Because I choose view suicide for vain, look-at-me-pay-attention-to-me reasons with as much revulsion as I can muster, others imply I'm a freeper?

And after reading your other responses, I think Ignore is the only appropriate place for you. You're just not worth bothering about.

...I seem to be running low, what with torching myself over and over in protest of my treatment here and all.

Did you mean your words to be ironic?
BuffieTheFundieSlayer

You should have been there to protest his funeral.

What a dumbass.
It's good that he was ignored. That will discourage anyone else from copying him.

...never put their money where their mouths are and torch themselves. I'm sorry, but there are some acts and forms of protest that simply go beyond anything remotely approaching noble or admirable. If they hate life and living so much, why don't they just end their own lives in the blaze of "glory" they applaud and adore so much? Because working for change takes more work than dousing one's self in gasoline and lighting a match ... and they know it. The Vietnam War continued, the Chinese government still oppresses its people, the first Gulf War still happened, the Muslims are still immigrating into the EU, and until the 110th Congress takes serious action to counter President Bush the occupation of Iraq will also continue. Human torches are nothing more than an incredibly sad and revolting Human interest story, not a catalyst for change.

There's idealism and naive idealism, and then there's this romanticizing of self-immolation. Guess which of the three truly hampers us and our efforts to stop the conservatives...

Really bizarre, how people are commending his using suicide as a statement.

Depression is another matter altogether. Depression is a serious mental health problem, which doesn't seem to factor into this man's actions.

Suicide as a protest statement is nothing short of stupidity. He isn't around to do any more protesting, so I would say he was counter-productive in his goals.

His was a rallying cry to them, I suppose. Which is a frightening thought any way you look at it. I'd rather people live and fight for change instead of even passingly supporting this guy's action.

Instead, it seems to me that people are thinking:
"look, the guy committed suicide. Don't get mad at him for ending his own life", which is the general sentiment surrounding a suicide.

However, almost all suicides are rooted in depression and feelings of hopelessness. This suicide is not based on depression (at least, not as far as we know). This suicide seems to be based on false ideas of grandeur.

Suicide should not be encouraged. Period.

Edit to add that I fully agree with you on this: "I'd rather people live and fight for change instead of even passingly supporting this guy's action."

you're wrong there OKDem08. Mr Rischer wasn't trying to impress the MAN, or the Great Dull Beast; hell if they were impressible, suicide wouldn't be necessary! But by self immolating himself in such a public spectacular way, he forced the phony bastards who run our country (mediawise, anyway) to run'n'hide, like creepy little rapist thug murdering pigs of some depraved sort. or like kids who stole candy from a screaming infant, running from mom...
run bastards! hide greasy fukkers!
satan gonna get you!
hahaha...

Edit: or maybe you don't..

How noble was that?

yeah, if you set yourself on fire to make a point, you are crazy. What is sad here is that nobody noticed this poor guy had done this. Which, when you think about it, was probably a bigger factor in his setting himself on fire than his distress over the Iraq War. Its sad that this guy WAS crazy and nobody noticed HOW crazy or appeared to care that he torched himself.

What a complete idiot. He got a space in Yahoo's Odd News section, for a day or two. There's your life's work!

about the feelings of your friends and family.

If something bothers you, do something about it. Go to a rally, get involved in politics, vote... do something, anything creative to make some change, however small.

Committing suicide to protest something makes no more damned sense than taking a nap to protest something. It's selfish and doesn't make the world any better.