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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:20 AM
Original message
DLC vs Progressives
There seems to be a battle going on for the soul of the Democratic party. I think it's pretty clear that the two groups are funded differently ~ but I find myself wondering how different they are on positions.

Looking at an issue that really concerns you, what would you consider the DLC position and the Progressive position?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. The illegal invasion of Iraq
Progressives want our troops to come home today.
DLCers want the war to continue. (By voting to fund it, it is being continued.)


Then there's impeachment
Progressives want it.
DLCers say there isn't enough time or votes (It's kind of an excuse of the day deal).
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Sadly, most Congressional Dems are on the same page wrt chimpeachment
Even people like Bernie Sanders and Barbara Lee won't support it. :shrug:
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. the extremes are accomodation and being compromised vs. irrelevantly dogmatic
the truth is somewhere inboard of those endpoints.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. And the fact that DLCers define anti-war, pro-labor, pro-impeachment as irrelevantly dogmatic
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I would say they can be irrelevantly dogmatic
The problem with these labels is that they just dumb down the issues to "us vs them" instead of making compromises taking into account both sides of the issue. Not everything is as simple as it seems on the surface.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. "irrelevantly dogmatic" is pretty simple, IMHO
Just one of the many epithets used to dismiss the progressive base -- sorry, "fringe" -- of the Democratic party.
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. I don't think these are irrelevantly dogmatic; the DLC might though
Edited on Mon Jun-04-07 11:44 AM by dusmcj
I think they're the core issues that makes the Democratic Party worth existing, cause they're the core issues that matter to the public.

When we form a drum circle as our response to Bush administration foreign policy, that's an example of irrelevantly dogmatic. Saying that Bush foreign policy sucks corporate cock is not.

Note both my examples of extremes revolved around questions of how positions are defended, not what the positions are.

Note also that ideologues and others who thump tables with their shoes over irrelevant (vs. relevant - that's what's at issue) points of dogma (same as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" 1000 yrs ago) in blissful disregard of physical truth are the core problem facing humanity today - our own extremists as well as those overseas are all about trying to uphold social and ethical systems which the universe has shown to be deficient. When threatened, most people become louder and more defensive, and almost all do what the neocons want, which is to confuse quality of platform content with enthusiasm in promoting it.

If we have something valuable to say it will convince based on its intrinsic value as long as we do not let others silence us (i.e. we must defend) whereas if we don't we will have to compensate for the lack of value with advertising campaigns and presenting a form which does not arise naturally from the function (i.e. we must employ aggression).
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. NAFTA, CAFTA, etc
DLC are free traders to the core. Most progressives would like these trade deals repealed.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Health care
The DLC wants to keep the for profit insurance companies and keep health insurance tied to employment and make it coverage universal and mandatory only for children (the cheapest group to insure).

Progressives know this will not work, that insurance companies are focused on profit, not care, and that throwing working adults to the wolves is doomed to failure. We know that employers are desperate to get out from under the burden of skyrocketing premiums, and copays and higher premium deductions are causing too many families to drop coverage as the cost of living inflates.

Progressives want Medicare expanded the way it was supposed to have been when it started 40 some years ago. Nothing else will work, and we should accept nothing else.

The DLC wants to protect a predatory insurance industry to keep the campaign contributions flooding in to conservative candidates.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. NAFTA:
DLC For it, with maybe some minor facelifting.

Progressives not willing to accept NAFTA without well-developed environmental safeguards and provisions for the fair treatment of laborers.
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StudentsMustUniteNow Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. NAFTA, immigration, H1 B visas, CAFTA, pseudo-universal health care, corrupt education system
Edited on Mon Jun-04-07 10:36 AM by StudentsMustUniteNow
The list goes on.

Richardson, Obama, and Clinton are the DLCers or DLC lites.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. two points to make...
First, the use of the term "progressive." I'm drawing from two sources. The first being Chris Bowers of Mydd:

The Flip. Until FDR, "progressive" was actually the most common term used to describe the mainstream of American leftism. In what can be considered an early example of triangulation, FDR instead chose to call himself a "liberal," thereby poaching some of Hoover's turf while also distancing himself from the left-wing label "progressive." FDR thus changed the meaning of both terms in American political discourse, as the "progressive" label was rendered fringe left-wing, and the "liberal" label was tied to the economic policies of the New Deal instead of the laissez-faire and corporatist policies. From what I understand, Hoover was so outraged over FDR calling himself a liberal during the 1932 campaign, that Hoover challenged FDR to a debate entirely over who was the true "liberal" in the race. It is also important to note that when former Vice President Henry Wallace broke from the Democratic Party in 1948, he took up the banner of the "progressive" party. After that debacle, people did not call themselves "progressive" for some time.

The 1990's revival. After nearly fifty years in the post-Wallace wilderness, the term "progressive" saw a revival in our political discourse in the 1990's primarily from two sources. First, "third way" triangulation types such as the DLC took to the term as a means to avoid being labeled as "liberal." Second, left-wing creative class types, at first primarily in the Bay Area, took to the term in order to disassociate themselves with the exiting "liberal" political infrastructure on both ideological and identity-based grounds. It must have been unpalatable for the wildly successful, and generally cutting edge, entrepreneurs of the Bay Area to self-associate with an ideological term that appeared to be old-fashioned and failing.

The New Big-Tent Term. Entering 2007, "progressive" appears to be the new and emerging "big-tent" term for the American center-left. The term is used just as comfortably by New Dem types as it is by the Democratic Party's left-wing. Whether or not this has drained it of any significant meaning is open to debate. Whether or not it still has any significant difference from the term "liberal" is also open to debate. It certainly appears to have morphed into something of an empty vessel term that an increasingly large segment, if not the majority, of the left and center-left political activist community feels comfortable self-identifying with. That is a good thing, because it allows us a sense of unity we lacked when many would call themselves moderate and many would call themselves liberal. However, it is difficult to tell what degree of resonance the term has outside of the universe of political activists. Pollsters like to use the same question for decades, and thus are not ready to start including the term "progressive" in ideological self-identification questions anytime soon.


Next, the DLC's Ed Kilogore weighs in:

Chris' history lesson on the subject is basically sound if a bit incomplete. He's correct in saying that late-nineteenth century Democrats (at least up until the fusion with Populists in 1896) were "liberal" in the European sense of favoring laissez-faire economic policies; there's a good reason that ur-libertarian Ayn Rand regarded Grover Cleveland as the beau ideal of American political history. But they did not always think of themselves as such, given their espousal of states-rights and constitutional strict-construction doctrines; regular southern Democrats in particular called their party "conservative" through most of the nineteenth century.

Likewise, "progressive" was not universally used as the self-identifier of the center-left prior to the New Deal. The term was often used by business interests who thought of advanced capitalism as a historically determined trend. And many Populists, who often argued they were restoring a pre-capitalist Jeffersonian political order, certainly didn't embrace the label of "progressive," either.

Chris is spot-on in noting that "progressive" became tainted by its association with the pro-communist (or at least anti-anti-communist) Left, especially in 1948. And he's also right in acknowledging that the revival of the "progressive" self-identification occurred almost simultaneously in two very different parts of the Democratic Party in the 1990s: the anti-war, anti-corporate, anti-establishment Left, and the New Democrat movement in the center-left.

I have one quibble with Chris' suggestion that New Democrats started using the term "progressive" (most notably with the establishment of the Progressive Policy Institute in 1989) "as a means to avoid being labeled as 'liberal.'" That suggests the terminology was purely cosmetic and non-ideological. In fact, the early New Democrats argued that "liberalism" had become temperamentally reactionary, consumed with defending the dead letter of every single New Deal/Great Society program and policy, while sacrificing the spirit of innovation that made "progressives" progressive. The whole international "Third Way" phenomenon was not designed to produce a moderate middle-point between Left and Right, but instead a reformulation of the progressive mission of the center-left at a time when the Right was successfully battening on popular discontent with outworn social democratic programs. That's why many of us from the New Dem tradition heartily dislike the "centrist" or "moderate" labels, even though they are hard to escape as a short-hand for intra-party politics.


Next up is a list of issues first drawn up by progressive blogger Kevin Drum based on an Atrios post about the consensus policy views of progressive bloggers. After citing Atrios' list, Kevin says: "I'm not an expert on the DLC's positions on everything, but it doesn't look to me like there's an awful lot there they'd argue with.

Again, Kilogore from the DLC responds to that list of questions:

As a bit of an expert on the DLC's "positions on everything" based on 12 years' experience, let me go through Atrios' list and respond.

1. Undo the bankruptcy bill enacted by this administration.

The DLC took no position on the bankruptcy bill; I opposed it, as did Marshall Wittmann.

2. Repeal the estate tax repeal.

Totally, absolutely, adamantly, that has been the DLC's position.

3. Increase the minimum wage and index it to the CPI.

Check. A longstanding DLC position.

4. Universal health care (obviously the devil is in the details on this one)

Check, with devilish details involving the DLC/PPI's dissent from the single-payer approach.

5. Increase CAFE standards. Some other environment-related regulation.

Yup. We've offered an alternative approach involving a tailpipe emissions cap-and-trade system, but the urgency of better fuel efficiency standards is Holy Writ in these (DLC)parts.

6. Pro-reproductive rights, getting rid of abstinence-only education, improving education about and access to contraception including the morning after pill, and supporting choice. On the last one there's probably some disagreement around the edges (parental notification, for example), but otherwise.

Yes again, if "getting rid of abstinence-only education" doesn't mean getting ridding of any abstinence education.

7. Simplify and increase the progressivity of the tax code

Totally, and in excrutiating detail.

8. Kill faith-based funding. Certainly kill federal funding of anything that engages in religious discrimination.

No to the first sentence, yes to the second.

9. Reduce corporate giveaways

Oh yes, for many years. The DLC/PPI helped popularize the very concept of getting rid of "corporate welfare," dating back to a late-1980s event we did with Ralph Nader. This principle has undergirded everything the DLC has said on the budget, the tax code, and state economic development policies.

10. Have Medicare run the Medicare drug plan

Nope. We opposed the current plan, but think the problem is cost and complexity, not the basic idea of offering choice and competition, a la the federal employees' plan.

11. Force companies to stop underfunding their pensions. Change corporate bankruptcy law to put workers and retirees at the head of the line with respect to their pensions.

Not a subject the DLC specifically has addressed, but I have no problem with it.

12. Leave the states alone on issues like medical marijuana. Generally move towards "more decriminalization" of drugs, though the details complicated there too.

No specific DLC position, though I can't imagine anyone here having a problem with state licensing of medical marijuana, and while not embracing "decriminalization" of drugs, we have long opposed the "mandatory minimum" drug sentencing that stuffed the prison system with non-violent offenders in the 1980s and after.

13. Paper ballots

If this means outlawing electronic voting, no, but we've supported a requirement of paper receipts for electronic voting machines to ensure against fraud.

14. Improve access to daycare and other pro-family policies. Obiously details matter.

Totally, and again, in ridiculous detail.

15. Raise the cap on wages covered by FICA taxes.

As part of a more comprehensive Social Security/Medicare reform package, definitely.

Then Atrios offers a few toss-offs:

Torture is bad
Imprisoning citizens without charges is bad
Playing Calvinball with the Geneva Conventions and treaties generally is bad
Imprisoning anyone indefinitely without charges is bad
Stating that the president can break any law he wants any time "just because" is bad.

Agreed on all points. Maybe nobody in the progressive blogosphere actually reads New Dem Dispatches or other institutional DLC utterings, preferring to rely on stereotypes, myths, or a few notable disagreements, but it's all there on the web site.

Now, by my rough count this represents something like 80% agreement--totally aside from the much higher percentage of agreement between left-bent bloggers and the DLC about the vast number of bad policies, terrible politics, and sheer incompetence associated with the Bush administration and the Republican Party. I guess this raises Chait's pointed question about the attitude of progressive bloggers to those Democrats who agree with them most of the time, but not all of the time.

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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thanks DUers, very interesting...
And the historical look at the terminology is so helpful!
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is not meant to flame, but this is my perception
The DLC will pretty much have same positions on issues
as Moderate Republicans(I admit there are few moderate
Republicans left). They will do things in a kinder
gentler way. The Result is the same. A Center Right
not just right of center government and all that suggests.

People having their jobs outsourced and downsized. Dropping
Salaries for the Middle Class. As one economist put it
those who earn over 75,000.000 dollars annually are fine.
Earn this as an individual not a couple's combined salary.
The others salaries fall and will continue to do so.
How long have the people been promised Health Care?
They assist Business in every way possible to the
detriment of the rank and file citizens.

Social justice is not a major concern.

There is no god of globalization applying some secret force
on the Markets. It is the Investor Class demanding higher
and higher earnings. Many voted for this Investor Class
Society--yep they drank the Regan Kool-Aid. Apparently
they cannot look out at the country and say "We were Wrong"
This ship is adrift and course correction is needed.

When they are willing to stand up to the Investor Class
and Business Interest, I shall have hope.

No, I am not Anti-Business--Just a little fairness, please


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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. But surely DLC Dems are more progressive than Reps...
Aren't they??
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. that's a simplistic view of what is going on in the Democratic Party
Edited on Mon Jun-04-07 04:20 PM by AtomicKitten
There is a myriad of opinion but, hey, I'll go with the flow because it invokes an awesome story arc.

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