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CNN Re-running Dem Debate from Last Week...Hillary says I READ IT ALL and voted for War?

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:14 PM
Original message
CNN Re-running Dem Debate from Last Week...Hillary says I READ IT ALL and voted for War?
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 08:29 PM by KoKo01
I just hit CNN...and they are showing last week's Dem Debate which (I admit, I turned off because I didn't like Blitzer's Hosting...early) but I was surfing and just Blitzer who asks Hillary if she read "all the intelligence information, "including the classified information" and she says: "I read it all!" "" Everything! (I'm paraphrasing but what Hillary said left NO DOUBT she is STANDING BY HER VOTE for Iraq WAR even when she SAYS she READ EVERYTHING...even the CLASSIFIED...and Wolf was explicit in his question!

I didn't see any posts here on DU saying that Hillary said she read "It ALL" and had no doubt at the time about it!

I think that's kind of BIG NEWS....:shrug:
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. As usual, hillary is shaving the truth. liar liar
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. If you read the transcript, she didn't claim to have read it all
so quit name-calling.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Facts mean very little...
In "Illinois" land...
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. here's the relevant excerpt from the transcript ...
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 08:20 PM by welshTerrier2
source: http://www.cfr.org/publication/13520/democratic_debate_transcript_new_hampshire.html

BLITZER: All right. Hold on, hold on. I want to bring Senator Clinton in.

Senator Clinton, do you regret voting the authorize the president to use force against Saddam Hussein in Iraq without actually reading the national intelligence estimate, the classified document laying out the best U.S. intelligence at that time?

CLINTON: Wolf, I was thoroughly briefed. I knew all the arguments. I knew all of what the Defense Department, the CIA, the State Department were all saying. And I sought dissenting opinions, as well as talking to people in previous administrations and outside experts.

You know, that was a sincere vote based on my assessment that sending inspectors back into Iraq to determine once and for all whether Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and using coercive diplomacy was not an unreasonable act.

What I did not count on, and what none of us did who voted to give the president authority, is that he had no intention to allow the inspectors to finish their job.

Now, we can argue about the past, or we can answer the question you asked about the National Guard. Our troops did the job they were asked to do. They got rid of Saddam Hussein. They conducted the search for weapons of mass destruction. They gave the Iraqi people a chance for elections and to have a government. It is the Iraqis who have failed to take advantage of that opportunity.

BLITZER: So let me just be precise, because the question was: Do you regret not reading the national intelligence estimate?

CLINTON: I feel like I was totally briefed. I knew all of the arguments that were being made by everyone from all directions. National intelligence estimates have a consensus position and then they have argumentation as to those people who don't agree with it. I thought the best way to find out who was right in the intelligence community was to send in the inspectors.

If George Bush had allowed the inspectors to finish the job they started, we would have known that Saddam Hussein did not have WMD and we would not have gone and invaded Iraq.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. So she never said "I read it all" as the OP states
I didn't think she had. DUers would have caught her on that before now. She said "I knew all the arguments" and that she knew all of what they were saying, but never once does she claim to have read it all. The OP is incorrect.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. that is correct HOWEVER ...
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 08:36 PM by welshTerrier2
consider this description of the NIE from Wikipedia:

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Estimate

National Intelligence Estimates (NIEs) express the coordinated judgments of the US Intelligence Community made up of 16 intelligence agencies, and thus represent the most authoritative assessment of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) with respect to a particular national security issue. NIEs are considered to be "estimative" intelligence products, in that they present what intelligence analysts estimate (not predict) may be the course of future events. Coordination of NIEs involves not only trying to resolve any interagency differences, but also assigning confidence levels to the key judgments and rigorously evaluating the sourcing for them. Each NIE is reviewed and approved for dissemination by the National Intelligence Board (NIB), which comprises the DNI and other senior Intelligence Community leaders within the Intelligence Community.


if your emphasis is that the OP misquoted what Senator Clinton said, you are correct. i would suggest the far more important point is that Senator Clinton failed to read the entire NIE on what many have called "the worst foreign policy blunder in our nation's history." She should be taken to task for that failure as should any other Senator who voted for this catastrophe without at least taking the time to read and understand what many believed was the best information available.

Senator Clinton's conduct, and others who acted similarly, was inexcusable.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Oh, I was just disputing the OP
Sen. Clinton did not read the NIE (which, I agree, was a grave mistake on her part and on the part of others who did the same), nor has she ever claimed to have read it. Had she claimed to have read it, it would have been an outright lie, but she made no such claim.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. and i was just pointing out that
what would have been an "outright lie" had the OP been correct is, in fact, much worse given that the OP was in error. Senator Clinton did NOT lie; she voted to authorize war (if bush thought it necessary) without having read the NIE ...

but she knew all the arguments because somebody told her some stuff ... yeah, right ... guilty!! guilty!! guilty!! and that goes for all the others who failed to do their jobs properly at this critical moment in history ... a whole lot of people died and they couldn't take the time to hear from our government's intelligence experts ...
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
37. Agreed she didn't read it.
NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP - Clinton is right it is Bush's war, but the She didn't read it, (NOR DID BUSH) is a talking point. DO NOT LET THE MEDIA FLIP THIS - IT A BUSH FUCK UP THAT WAS FULLY SUPPORTED BY THE RIGHT WING. HANNITY and the other assholes will use this so cut it off. She was wrong, but not near as wrong as Bush, BUT IT HAS BEEN FLIPPED SO A DEM SHOULD NEVER USE THIS AGAIN - IT SHOULD BE ALL ABOUT BUSH!
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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. No one on her staff had a security clearance to get the NEI!
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 09:08 PM by Hart2008
So how could she have been briefed on the NEI?

She refuses to answer that question, and Wolfie never bothered to follow up on it either.

The MSM just loves her!

:puke::puke::puke::puke:
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. everyone recieved the 25 page unclassified NIE. N/T
n/t
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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. Hillary had no one on her staff with the security clearance to read the classified NIE!
'Reading Her Way doesn't leave one optimistic that this will happen any time soon. Clinton's serial manipulations, prevarications, rationalizations, and calculations on the war are laid out chapter and verse. Literally. Starting with her vote authorizing President Bush to use military force against Iraq.

On the campaign trail, Clinton has said again and again that she cast her vote based on the best available intelligence. But Gerth and Van Natta show that, according to all evidence, Hillary did not actually read the "best available intelligence" on the war before the invasion -- the full, 90-page classified version of the National Intelligence Estimate -- even though Sen. Bob Graham, then chairman of the Intelligence Committee, had, according to the book, "implored his colleagues to do so before casting such a monumental vote." (After reading the full report, Graham voted against the war.)

What's more, "Hillary still had no one on her staff with the security clearances needed to read the NIE." So what, exactly did she base her decision on -- briefings provided by the administration? Gerth and Van Natta sum it up this way: "If she did not bother to read the complete intelligence reports, then she did not do enough homework on the decision that she has called the most important of her life."
This is particularly shocking given Hillary's obsession -- well-documented in the book -- with being "always well-prepared." Her Way quotes a senate advisor saying, "In her downtime she inhales information and enjoys it."'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/her-way-hillary_b_49733.html
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
49. The declassified NIE was most deceptive
Reading the classified version the intel could still be interpreted, the breaks between the conclusions and the intel basis could be seen, but that was not true of the declassified version or "summary" as it is often referred to. This is why Bob Graham was begging his colleagues to read the full report and told them they would have blood on their hands if they didn't. Anybody who relied on the 25-page report was duped, but they didn't have to be had they gone and read the 90-page original.

Two years ago, Graham was outflanked when he attempted to force the White House to make public the intelligence assessment on Saddam Hussein's WMD. Graham has described those events in a new book, "Intelligence Matters: The CIA, the FBI, Saudi Arabia and the Failure of America's War on Terror." The book describes a closed-door meeting on Sept. 5, 2002, with George Tenet, in which the Senate Intelligence Committee sought to clarify whether the increasingly dire threat painted by Bush, Vice President Cheney and other administration officials was real, and whether it justified a preemptive invasion. Graham and senators Carl Levin, D-Mich., and Dick Durbin, D-Ill., assumed an NIE on Iraq must already exist, given the gravity of an invasion. (Such assessments can be initiated either by the White House, Congress or the CIA). And the senators asked to see it. Tenet and other intelligence agency representatives replied with "blank stares," Graham wrote. The Democratic senators demanded that Tenet get to work immediately on the report.

Three weeks later, Tenet turned over to the congressional intelligence committees a 90-page classified NIE that minimized the view, held by the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research and the Department of Energy, that Saddam had probably not reconstituted a nuclear program. The NIE buried their many caveats in footnotes even as it also concluded that Saddam had shown little desire to attack the United States, and that Iraq had few contacts with al-Qaida. Graham pushed for its declassification. He got it on Oct. 4, 2002, only a week before the Congress voted on the Iraq war resolution.

The declassified report was 25 pages long and appeared to have been produced in advance, judging by the slick graphics and maps that accompanied it, Graham said. Gone were the caveats that the classified version had included, and gone were the assessments that Saddam didn't appear interested in attacking the United States. What was left was "a vivid and terrifying case for war," Graham wrote.

Salon 9/17/04
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/09/17/intelligence_estimate/index.html
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. You're absolutely right.
The unclassified NIE only had one small paragraph of dissenting opinion about the aluminum tubes and the Niger yellowcake; page 87.



“INR’s Alternative View: Iraq’s Attempts to Acquire Aluminum Tubes”

Some of the specialized but dual-use items being sought are, by all indications, bound for Iraq’s missile program. Other cases are ambiguous, such as that of a planned magneti-production line whose suitability for centrifuge operations remains unknown. Some efforts involve non-controlled industrial material and equipment—including a variety of machine tools—and are troubling because they would help establish the infrastructure for a renewed nuclear program. But such efforts (which began well before the inspectors departed) are not clearly linked to a nuclear end-use. Finally, the claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are, in INR’s assessment, highly dubious.”

http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/iraq-wmd-nie.pdf

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3293749&mesg_id=3295077




On this matter pertaining to war, there was a clear moral responsibility to read and study the classified NIE.




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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. But if no one on Hillary's staff had a security clearance, how could she be briefed on it?
"On this matter pertaining to war, there was a clear moral responsibility to read and study the classified NIE."

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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. She may have been briefed on it by people who weren't on her staff
such as people from the various intelligence agencies or the Dept. of Defense, etc.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. So only Senators who didn't read the NIE and voted FOR the resolution
should be taken to task? Isn't the issue whether the read the NIE or not? Weren't Senators who didn't read it and voted against it just guessing too?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. happy to agree with that point.
my focus, based on the OP and the topic, was on Hillary and those who acted similarly.

i certainly agree with your point that anyone who cast a vote on the IWR, either way, and failed to read the NIE failed to do the job we elected them to do. inexcusable.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. And she didn't say...
I voted for war either
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
55. maybe it depends on what the meaning of briefed is....
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Okay...Thanks for the Transcript to Clarify this...realize that I was a viewer "tuning in"
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 08:31 PM by KoKo01
who is politically aware...and that's what "I HEARD." Just so you know. I was washing dishes and had cats running around...but what she said struck me and I posted as if I was an ordinary person...which I am, except for being on DU forever... :shrug:
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. and you ...
i know the error in the OP was an honest error ... you need make no apology ... your statement could have been easily checked by anyone ... it's clear what you wrote was unintentionally in error ... the more important point is that Hillary gave bush the authority to go to war without having read the NIE.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. What I'm thinking is that some Dems On Intell Committee say they didn't get the REAL info...yet
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 08:55 PM by KoKo01
it seems that they were requeted by Bushies to go to some room and read the whole report but not allowed to "take notes" on what they read. Seems I remember John Edward saying that and there was a post here on DU asking why more Dems didn't go over to that "secret room..or whatever place the Bushies had the "classified report" and READ IT BEFORE THE VOTE!

Someone needs to find out what happened about that.. Seems some took the time to go over and read the "classified report" (Biden claims he did, I think) and others read the "unclassified Summary Report" (Edwards, I think says he only read that one) and yet WHY weren't ALL those on Intelligence Committee allowed to have the "unclassified report" available in a FULL BRIEFING by the PRESIDENT?

Going to a "room" where you are allowed to read but not take notes doesn't seem to be a proper way for Government to run. :shrug:

What I heard Hillary say...washing dishes with cats running around...was that she had "read it all."

So that's why I got upset and posted. I'm glad the TRANSCRIPT was posted to clarify.

BUT...shouldn't we ask why the full Intelligence Committee wasn't Brought into the Oval Office and CONSULTED? Why does no one talk about that?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. all good points ...
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 09:08 PM by welshTerrier2
my "Why does no one talk about that?" returns to a discussion of whether this country or Democrats or anyone else condones "pre-emptive" war.

let's even totally accept a hypothetical that Saddam had had WMD. are we all expected to accept the premise that authorizing bush to invade Iraq was acceptable???????????????????

because it would NOT have been acceptable to me. Does Senator Clinton or any of the other "YES" voters want to revisit that little precedent they enabled?????

Saddam did NOT attack the US. He was NOT EVER going to attack the US. Under what doctrine was an invasion justified?????

Democrats who voted for bush's war like to argue that they "trusted" bush. It's what Hillary said during her IWR speech. What she meant was she trusted that bush would try to force the inspections and work through the UN. Under what doctrine did she grant him that power?????

What right did the US have to invade Iraq EVEN IF Saddam did have WMD? Do we have a right to invade any other country in the world if they have WMD?????

But somehow, all the tidy little "oops" explanations blame the whole damned invasion on bush. We never had a right to invade and trusting him authorized him to violate international law. The standard for war has always been that an adversary had to pose an imminent threat. Iraq did not meet that standard and those who empowered bush, whether they trusted him or not, should have known better.

the result? the worst foreign policy blunder in our nation's history. and these people have the audacity to run for President.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Oh yes . . .
I forgot to include that possibility in my post below:

"let's even totally accept a hypothetical that Saddam had had WMD. are we all expected to accept the premise that authorizing bush to invade Iraq was acceptable???????????????????"

Much of what has been said about this assumes Invasion was the best response to the presence of WMDs. That IS another problem with the IWR Yeahs. We WERE looking for al Qaeda and we have NOT established that Invasion is an effective response to the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

We should not be distracted by the WMD issue.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. What I hear you say is what worries me. How many Dems agree with Doctrine of Pre-Emtive Strike?
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 09:34 PM by KoKo01
How many Dems in House & Senate agree that President should have ALL POWERS as the Executive?

I know that it seems that Presidents have been getting away with "doing war" by getting us into war through odd things like "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" or like Reagan going to save US Medical Students he claimed were threatened in Grenada. Or, Poppy Bush going after Noriega in Panama and then going after Saddam when he invaded Kuwait. All our wars since the Consitution seem to have been hoked up by Presidents doing "strikes or invasions" on faked pretenses or with authorizations that only their cronies in the Senate knew about ...but there was always tacit approval that we would "go in and get out" except for Vietnam which was the LONGEST that we Stayed in for 20 years. (well we've been in South Korea longer...but that's "supposedly for peace keeping purposes." :eyes:

Everyone seems to be happy if a President shows his muscle and goes in...as long as he doesn't stay too long and gets out and the Media and folks are happy. But look at Haiti...look at the pre-emptive bombings by all Presidents in my know time on this earth.

Isn't it time for some of this to be examined? And Bush's really challenged the "wink and nod" by putting into play the "Doctrine of Pre-Emptive Strike." Shouldn't this be challenged? But it will go to the Bushie Supremes...and probably they will say YES...and no one on the Dem side wants to touch that one for fear of that. Yet...so many of them condone it. :shrug:
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
43. The Bush Doctrine is *not* preemptive war
Edited on Mon Jun-11-07 08:08 AM by WesDem
It's preventive war. In fact, in September 2002, Clark argued before the Congress that an Iraq invasion should not be considered "preemptive" which is a legal defensive construct for war based on imminent attack. Clark said at the time the "smoking gun evidence" was not there that would have called forth the doctrine of preemption.

Here is a useful discussion about the differences of what Bush was doing and preemptive war:

The Bush Administration does not regard preemption as a substitute for traditional nonmilitary measures such as sanctions and coercive diplomacy or for proactive counterproliferation and strengthened nonproliferation efforts. Preemption is an “add-on” tailored to deal with the new, non-deterrable threat. But the question does arise as to whether “preemption” best characterizes the new policy. The Pentagon’s official definition of preemption is “an attack initiated on the basis of incontrovertible evidence that an enemy attack is imminent.”20 In contrast, preventive war is “a war initiated in the belief that military conflict, while not imminent, is inevitable, and that to delay would involve great risk.”21 Harvard’s Graham Allison has captured the logic of preventive war: “I may some day have a war with you, and right now I’m strong and you’re not. So I’m going to have the war now.” Allison went on to point out that this logic was very much behind the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, “and in candid moments some Japanese scholars say—off the record—that big mistake was waiting too long.”22

The difference between preemption and preventive war is important. As defined above, preemptive attack is justifiable if it meets Secretary of State Daniel Webster’s strict criteria, enunciated in 1837 and still the legal standard, that the threat be “instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means and no moment for deliberation.”23 Preemptive war has legal sanction.24 Preventive war, on the other hand, has none, because the threat is neither certain nor imminent. This makes preventive war indistinguishable from outright aggression, which may explain why the Bush Administration insists that its strategy is preemptive, although some Cabinet officials have used the terms interchangeably.


http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/03spring/record.htm

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. perhaps "preventive war" is an oxymoron
i understand the distinction Clark raised about "preventive" war versus "pre-emptive" war. Was the definition of "preventive" war provided by Clark himself or was he quoting another source?

personally, i think the term preventive war is an oxymoron. you cannot start a war to prevent a war. if you start a war, you have failed to "prevent" that war making the term "preventive war" illogical by definition.

on the more important point, Clark was right that the "smoking gun" to justify an invasion was NOT there. even if Saddam had had WMD, there was no indication that he would attack the US. such arguments were preposterous.

and yet, too many Democrats, including some Presidential candidates, thought it was OK to allow bush to use his judgment about whether to invade Iraq. call it preventive war, call it pre-emptive war, call it a war crime, on what doctrine did these candidates rely to vote for the IWR? this nonsense about trusting bush or trying to get the inspectors back in was total crap; even if that were true, there was no basis to give bush the power to go to war with a country that posed no imminent threat. those who voted for the IWR and against international law have no business running for President; they should not be trusted with that kind of power. and that's especially true for those who still don't seem to understand that they failed to do the right thing.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. But there is an important difference
One is legal and internationally agreed upon; the other is not. By voting in the IWR, for whatever individual reasons our legislators had, it legitimized preventive war. The PNAC Bush Doctrine sought to blur and extend the two definitions and succeeded in convincing most of Congress, but preemptive/preventive are not the same and should never be presented as the same, because it's the difference between legitimate defense and illegitimate offense, and what constitutes a just or unjust war according to international law. Clark was right about the evidence but also right that what was being proposed did not meet the standards of preemption. If Congress had grasped that essential fact it might have made a difference in the vote. Added to the NIE, if only it had been fully and responsibly considered, there was a significant case against going to war.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. the pathetic defenses of voting "Yes" on the IWR
WesDem, I am in 100% agreement with the points you made and I appreciate the importance of the "legal" distinctions between the two terms.

What are the most common defenses you see being posted in defense of anyone who voted for the IWR? Here are the main ones I've heard:

1. no one could have known Saddam didn't have WMD. everyone believed he did.
2. this was NOT a vote for war. the goal was to pressure Saddam to allow the inspectors back in.
3. "I trusted the President."
4. Saddam was in violation of the UN's restrictions on Iraq.
5. Saddam was conspiring with Al Qaeda.

Those are the main arguments I've heard. I'm sure there are others. Those defending Democrats seem to select one or more of the first three.

I won't address all the semantic games that get played on either side of those arguments. It was a vote for war; it wasn't a vote for war. Whatever ...

The bill transferred the authority to determine whether an invasion was necessary from the Congress to the President. An invasion was authorized at bush's sole discretion. As we've discussed, such authority NEVER should have been granted because, even if Saddam did have WMD, even if the goal was to pressure Saddam to allow inspectors to return and even if bush was trustworthy, i.e. even if we accept all 3 reasons for voting for the IWR, THE INVASION WAS A VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

and so, the question remains, for those who granted bush, at his sole discretion, the authorization to invade Iraq, under what doctrine of international law did they do so. it seems to me that Hillary, and all the others who voted as she did, were GUILTY of contributing to a violation of international law. The result? Well, we all know the result. I guess we need not elaborate the body counts and the suffering yet again.

the reasons provided for voting for the IWR have been stripped bare. there was no legitimate basis for an invasion and thus, a "NO" vote on the IWR was the only legal vote. it seems to me any candidate for the Presidency should have known that.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. It's a very serious matter, even dire
Many of the No voters, Durbin, Levin, Feingold, and others, talked in their floor speeches before the vote about how this Bush Doctrine was taking the nation in a wholly different direction than had become acceptable to the world community or to the nation itself. Clark in 2003 and 2004 and since has called for Congress to dismantle it and regain their rightful authority. This is why we must insist on investigations into what went on prewar with the intelligence and demand accountability from ALL, and I don't care who it is. The Democrats just have to stand up and be counted on this. What's right is right.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
42. The Intelligence Committee certainly did have the NIE
They didn't have to go to any room to read it. It was ordered by the Intelligence Committee and delivered to the Intelligence Committee. The Intelligence Committee had full control of it and arranged the two locked rooms for other Senators and Representatives to have access. Bringing the Intelligence Committee into the Oval Office, or not, had absolutely nothing to do with the National Intelligence Estimate, something Bush never wanted in the first place. It was only because Graham, Durbin and Levin insisted on an NIE that it ever even existed.
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
45. Hillary doesn't do dishes and she has no cats, so she should
have read the damn thing. Dang Hillary anyway.
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. It's okay, everybody makes mistakes
but you should probably edit the OP to remove the things that are inaccurate.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. It was too late to edit...but hopefully folks will read the thread...and if not
it's still good to have in case RW starts a meme about it.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Thanks for posting that! It seems that all those against Hillary eliminate the
pertinent info! There were DIFFERING OPINIONS from the intel communities! I think she did the right thing by saying "let the inspectors check and settle it once and for all!" The statement I agree with most is this one: "What I did not count on, and what none of us did who voted to give the president authority, is that he had no intention to allow the inspectors to finish their job."

I remember BELIEVING that it was the right thing to do to give an American President the authority to "use force if necessary to give him power in negotiations. I DIDN'T BELIEVE HE'D ABUSE IT LIKE HE DID!
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. those against Hillary eliminate the pertinent info ?????
but I posted the transcript !!! how much more pertinent could I have been???
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. NOT YOU! I'm talking about all the people who just say "She voted for the war so I hate her!"
I THANKED YOU for posting the transcript becasue it DOES give all the info!
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
57. "let the inspectors check and settle it once and for all!" ?
This may be Hillary's rationalization but nowhere in the IWR did it say the inspectors should settle it once and for all...

In fact, Hillary voted No...the SAME DAY as the IWR....on a resolution that would have bought more time. It would have sent the matter back to the UN (who was doing the inspections). If the UN did not act, then it would go back to Congress for another vote. Only with another vote would war be authorized.

So how did Hillary, who NOW SAYS she wanted to give time to let the inspectors check and settle it once and for all, vote on the Levin Amendment which would have given them more time and avoided giving Bush the blank check? Well, she voted NO! How can that be? How can someone who wanted to give the inspectors more time to settle the matter vote NO on a measure that would have given them more time and YES on the Lieberman version of the IWR?

I hope we won't fall for this rationalization. Hillary had her chance to vote on giving the UN inspectors more time. And she voted NO!

B......S........
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. that is bs....
...."You know, that was a sincere vote based on my assessment that sending inspectors back into Iraq to determine once and for all whether Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and using coercive diplomacy was not an unreasonable act".

Come on, Hillary. The same day as the IWR was passed, another resolution, the Levin resolution, was voted on. It would have sent the matter back to the UN. If unsuccessful, it would go back to the Congress. Then Congress would have to vote on another resolution that would finally authorize war.

So, Hillary, you seem to be saying that all you wanted was more time for the inspectors to do their work. Then why would you oppose the Levin Amendment which would have bought this time, and would have prevented giving Bush a blank check?

This is the bs that infuriates me about Hillary. Why can't she level with us? More importantly, why did she vote NO on the Levin amendment the same day as she voted Yes on the IWR? She could have bought more time, but for some reason she chose not to. What was it? Didn't she read Levin either?

What good is literacy if you don't read?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. That's her baggage. Having watched up close 8 yrs of Reps trying to tie Bubba's hands...
she couldn't vote not to give Bush free reign.

But, again, the IWR lists steps that Bush just ignored. It's his war and it's his fault. He would have gone to war anyway. With or without the IWR.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Exactly.
I'm no fan of Hillary, but this is a bogus attack on her.

(There are good reasons to oppose her. This isn't one of them.)
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. "He would have gone to war anyway. With or without the IWR."
Which many Democrats, grassroots and in office, understood, so, for that likelihood and other established facts, Congressional Democrats voted against the IWR as a statement against, or to try to prevent, what was happening.

A vote for IWR, whether the voter read the complete NIE or not, was either a naive calculation that, after ALL of his resistance, Bush would do what he said, weapons would NOT be found, and thus war averted - or - it was an "informed" calculation that, after ALL of his resistance, Bush would do what he said, weapons would be found and war, thus, necessary - or - since it was indeterminent whether Bush would do as he claimed he would or not, that wasn't a factor and, hence, neither was the presence or non-presence of WMD, and the vote was simply a bid for the political "middle", of the sort that Kerry attempted and failed.

Naive calculation?
Informed, but mistaken calculation?
Political message written in blood?

None of those 3 possibilities casts the decision maker in a trustful light. I don't know which it was for HC, but I do wonder why, given all of the uncertainties and negative light in the three possible scenarios, one wouldn't choose the opposite political message, like many other Democrats did, except that one's knowledge and understanding of us, the voters, is so limited that she had no faith in the audience for that message, another possibility that doesn't exactly fill me with inspiration at the possibility of her leadership.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. There is another possibility of course.
Several, in fact.

Think of the choices that existed at the time:
1. That the resolution just might make Saddam completely capitulate, thereby avoiding violence.
2. That if war was inevitable, it might at least be worth trying to impose some conditions on it.
3. Try to restrain the U.S.'s possible responses to prevent being attacked even though you aren't 100% sure about the threat.(The UN inspectors had not finished their task yet, and in fact, did not trust saddam's statements regarding weapons programs.), or defer judgement regarding Iraq to the president.


I continue to say that being against the war and voting for the resolution are not mutually exclusive positions. Obama is a good example in that he was able to oppose the war, but when he actually had to cast votes about it, he has chosen to continue to fund it. These are not easy decisions for these folks. We get to go out on the streets and express our positions with signs and bullhorns, but they have to cast votes that may decide the fate of any one of us.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yes there are other possibilities. I was trying to work with as many
as I could identify a few months ago, on this board.

Tonight, I was just considering the point that has become rhetorical currency lately, "I thought Bush was going to legitimately pursue the investigations".
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. I hope I have shown that there were other choices besides the three
you mention as "negative". There were other choices that were more honorable, although still not easy. Since your premise is incomplete, your conclusion is unsupportable. There is no reason to believe that Clinton lacks understanding of voters based on this argument, and therefore no reason to question her ability to lead or inspire.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. As I have already said . . .
Edited on Mon Jun-11-07 12:12 AM by patrice
I have spent quite a bit of time enumerating for myself all of the different combinations of factors and the resulting choices re the IWR vote. You didn't show me anything I haven't already thought, and made my decisions about. Your paternalistic attitude is only proof of what I have to say about not understanding voters well enough to represent them.

Again - Here, now, tonight, I was thinking mainly about the current talking point being peddaled by those paid to do so; she, similar to some, but definitely unlike a whole lot, possibly even the majority, of people, thought Bush would do what he said he was going to do, so what has happened isn't her fault.

I have plenty of reason to question the ability of anyone to lead who doesn't recognize a mistake when she sees one. And the fact that she thinks, if Bush hadn't tricked her, her vote would have been the RIGHT thing to do makes it even worse. We are not War Slaves.

And this isn't even the only issue that she is wrong about as far as I'm concerned. As is quite common with candidate advocates, you succeed only in turning people off to your candidate, by implying I somehow owe her my support. The ONLY person who can change my mind about HC is HC. She has made it quite clear that she isn't going to do that, so I owe her absolutely nothing, certainly not the only power I have, my vote.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. Look, you stated a premise in a typical "logical" format.
I'm just pointing out, and not trying to change your mind, that your logical exercise was flawed. You can still dislike Hillary for this or any number of other reasons of course, and you don't even need a reason if you don't want one. But for anyone else looking in who maybe hasn't made up their mind yet, or for those who may be just quickly scanning the messages, flawed arguments like this should not go unchallenged. This particular argument is not a good one to use if you are deciding about Clinton's integrity.

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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. If the flaw you refer to is that I didn't state all of the different
lines of reasoning that would lead to a yes on the IWR, I did not claim that I did state all of them. I was talking about 3 possible lines of reasoning that could have been associated with the claim that her vote was based on the expectation that Bush was going to do what he said he was going to do (after months and months of letting the American representative on the inspection team screw with the process at every possible opportunity - BTW).
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. I should have made a different word choice: these three possibilities
"None of those 3 possibilities casts the decision maker in a trustful light. I don't know which it was for HC, but I do wonder why, given all of the uncertainties and negative light in THESE three possible scenarios, one wouldn't choose the opposite political message, like many other Democrats did, except that one's knowledge and understanding of us, the voters, is so limited that she had no faith in the audience for that message, another possibility that doesn't exactly fill me with inspiration at the possibility of her leadership." + And if it wasn't that she had no faith in the audience for an anti-pre-emptive (or anti-preventitive) war message, then it must have been that those of us with that perspective just DID NOT MATTER. Her IWR vote was a message to some other voters, not to us. And I'm supposed to vote for her anyway?!?!?!???? Your assumption that I and others should prooves my points about her.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. "This is a blank check," he said.
"Congress is ceding, lock, stock and barrel, its power to declare war - handing it over to a chief executive. Congress might as well just shut the door and put a sign up there that says, 'Going fishing.'"

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.byrd10oct10,1,1899718.story?coll=bal-iraq-storyutil&ctrack=1&cset=true









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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
30. Information has been posted over and over and over and over and over and over and over
It said Hillary Clinton and John Edwards did NOT NOT NOT NOT read the report. They had someone read it and brief them. Google and you will find it on DailyKos....ThinkProgress and Crooksandliars....They were posting it because they wanted people to know that Edwards and Hillary, did not read the report. In fact 9/10 of the senators did not read the report. They were briefed....Of course again all the Hillary haters are hitting the posts. I suppose if she did win the nomination, and there are surely doubts cause the men out there would certainly loose their macho if she did, the democratic men who could not stand to be outdone by a woman would even vote for the republicans first.

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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. playing the sex card
"I suppose if she did win the nomination, and there are surely doubts cause the men out there would certainly loose their macho if she did, the democratic men who could not stand to be outdone by a woman would even vote for the republicans first".

I find this demeaning. This is just like if someone whined that if Obama doesn't get the nomination people could not stand to be outdone by a black.

If someone attacks Hillary because she is a woman or says something sexist that is one thing. But to whine in advance is...just...whining, and smacks of an attitude of entitlement.
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
36. give her a break
She made the vote that she thought would get her reelected Senator and then elected President. IMO she knew it was the wrong vote at the time but made a political decision. Does it make her a bad person no, did it cost her my support and many others yes. Kerry fucked up, Biden fucked up, other than Feingold (and maybe Boxer) I can't think of anyone who had the balls to make the right choice.

That being said, the lame ass excuse that she trusted Bush is just that, a lame ass excuse that actually makes it worse.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Making a political decision
that had the possibility of death for hundreds of thousands of people in order to further a political career is a good thing?

And it's the Iraqi's fault they can't get off their bombed to shit asses and fix the mess they've made for themselves?

When is this country ever going to wake up. Have they really started drugging and poisoning the masses into a stupor?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
58. Don't need "balls" to "make the right choice." nt
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Zandor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
46. She didn't say "I READ IT ALL" or that she "voted for War"
Other than that, your headline is totally accurate. :eyes:
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
48. Right, but LeShow is reporting that she DIDN'T bother to read the NIE.

As a matter of fact, none of the senators running for president read it.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
51. Is not reading it and voting for it any better?
Or is that not worse in some sense?
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