What's Happening With The Immigration Bill? Are The Dems Going To Deliver For *......

and contribute to his legacy?

That's what a friend of mine told me. That the Dems have sided with * and will help get some immigration bill passed that * will be able to claim a victory for himself and feather his legacy. Any truth to this?

Our democratic congress people have lost their minds, or sold their souls to lobbyists, or something.

But look at the bright side, their still keeping their powder dry!!!!!

12 million illegal immigrants who are not going away and are stuck in a exploitable situation with no rights. It is he and his cohorts who have insisted that "legalization" be a part of the Bill. The Repubs would be ecstatic to do the Bill without legalizing these people. It is much easier for employers to exploit them when they are "illegal."

No one expects Bush and his corporate buddies to seriously pursue border enforcement and employer sanctions, if this Bill fails and the status quo persists. We could wait for a Democratic administration, but my understanding of history is that there has never been a crackdown on immigration under Democratic rule - Hispanic power and the lure of their votes.

We may have Bush over a barrel here. If we oppose everything he supports without thinking and without remembering what our goals and beliefs are, then we are reactionary, by definition. If Kennedy and other true liberals can force Bush to make compromises that he never would have done before, I believe that we should take advantage of his weakness.

*Co is going to tout it as a major victory for * and tout his power of negotiation that made this bill pass. They have the stage to make him out the winner no matter that the Dems have him over a barrel. The Dems won't get credit for having him over the barrel and forcing the issue.

as a victory, if it happens, but they have not evidenced the ability to win the PR battle in the past.

This bill is widely opposed by a large majority of Americans.

It is a very bad bill and the folks pushing it on the Democratic side are out of touch with most Americans on this issue.

by the American people. The Repugs blame the Dems to make them look bad going into 2008. No sweat off *'s back - he's not running. So in essence he conned the Dems into bringing this bill back and passing with the full knowledge that it can be used against the Dems in '08. The Repugs were in on it all the way.

Gosh - it's getting hard not to keep thinking the worst when anything happens in this government anymore.

because Bush wants it and will tout it as a great victory to Repub advantage in 2008. Others here want to oppose the bill because it is a set up by the Repubs to enable them to be able to blame the Democrats for its passage and reap the electoral gains in 2008.

It makes me think that taking a position on the bill strictly because of what you perceive the Bush/Repub strategy is self-defeating. Better to take a position on the bill based on whether you think it is the right thing to do.

and bring it back when the Dems take the WH.

legislation and I don't foresee the next one being any different. Hispanic groups, like other minorities, have a lot of strength in the party and Dem politicians are leery of antagonizing their Hispanic base. One of the reasons Kennedy is pushing the legalization, I am sure, is that he foresees future Democratic voters.

We are going to be stuck with the current mess for a long time.

Immigration as an issue pits the left intelligentsia and corporate elites against the working class and working poor. Sarkozy just won in France with an agenda of getting tough against the immigrant rioters in the banlieue and the French Communist Party didn't even get enough votes to qualify for matching funds because ALL its working class support defected to ferociously anti-immigrant Le Pen. It is a realigning issue like crime thirty years ago because it directly impacts people's security fears and interests.

If you are working class and working poor you have seen the pool of good jobs steadily shrink because of illegals. This makes people mad and when they get mad they demand that their politicians work for them. You notice that none of the freshmen Democrats in the House are supporting 'immigration reform' because the issues of globalization, free trade, and illegal immigration are linked. They are all part of the cheap labor war against the American worker.

Kennedy is thinking in terms of identity politics. But identity politics doesn't do one damn thing for bread and butter economic interests. You can't build a majority party on identity politics. Clinton couldn't. You can only build a majority party by addressing people's physical and/or socioeconomic security interests.

will benefit any regular people. He only pushes bills that benefit corporate America.

It would be far better to wait until Democrats have control of the white house and pass a bill that is fair to people.

The problem of illegal immigrants needs to be fixed. But if you think this bill will keep employers from exploiting immigrants, you are sadly mistaken. Reagan passed a similar bill. Did it improve anything?

Bush has sold out his entire base over this. Do you think he cares about the Hispanic vote? Do you really think the democrats do?

Take a look at the guest worker program, which is legal immigration. The employers involved in this program are exploiting the hell out of these people. And no one is doing anything about it.

There is nothing about this bill that remotely resembles the goals or beliefs of true liberals. And if you think that Bush is over the barrel and will compromise, think again. Bush has never compromised ever. It is his way or the highway and the democrats always go along with him.

We do not have 12 million illegal immigrants in this country by accident. We have never had that many before. We have that many because the policy the last few years has been to look the other way and let them come in. That is because it helps employers that don't want to pay minimum wage.

on immigration. I think it has something to do with them thinking that most immigrants will become Democratic voters. So waiting for a Democratic president will not work.

"Bush has sold out his entire base over this." Since he has sold them out, let's stick it to him and pass the bill. If we don't, the base will forgive and forget in time. If we do, it will be a constant reminder to them that they were sold out by Bush and the other politicians.

"There is nothing about this bill that remotely resembles the goals or beliefs of true liberals." Don't tell Kennedy that. He probably thinks that legalizing the status of 12 million people who, at any rate, are not going anywhere and are in a vulnerable and exploitable position, is a true liberal goal.

"Bush has never compromised ever." My belief is that Bush would be much happier with a bill that did not legalize the illegal immigrants already here and did not stiffen penalties on those who employ illegal workers. If you do not think that represents compromise, you are entitled to your opinion. Perhaps he really does want to grant potential citizenship to 12 million likely Democratic voters and remove the "illegality" that makes them so easy to exploit in the labor market. My view is that Kennedy has him over a barrel and he knows it.

More than 20 million immigrants passed through Ellis Island between 1892 and 1954. That was legal immigration over a 60 year period.

How does any sane person think we can take in that many folks that just decided to walk across the border in the last few years?

thinks that twelve million people are going to quit their jobs, leave the country, and sit around for two years waiting for their "path to citizenship to begin! And I'd sure like to know how it's going to deter MORE people from coming in.

:headbang:
rocknation

As I understand the bill, they could apply for the Z visa and stay here as legal immigrants without the hassle. They would not have to leave the country, pay the fine, or anything else. Of course, they couldn't then expect to become citizens, but their children and descendants would be which may be fine with many of them. They came here to work. Citizenship was not their immediate goal, so I expect they could adjust to being a legal worker without becoming a citizen.

... any intention of securing the border. They just want to shaft the American worker and taxpayer for their own selfish interests. Dems want a voting bloc. Cheap labor business interests want a slave labor force. Churches want to fill pews. Organized labor foolishly believes that increasing headcount in the context of a labor glut will strengthen them. Everybody wants something.

But Americans will lose.

12 million illegal immigrants who are not going away and are stuck in a exploitable situation with no rights.

Stuck? They are sticking themselves. They are free to leave anytime they like.

The Repubs would be ecstatic to do the Bill without legalizing these people. It is much easier for employers to exploit them when they are "illegal."

That is not accurate. Illegals hold down wages as a whole, but that is always subject to change rapidly in the event of a crackdown on their employers. Legalizing the 12m+ and flooding the labor market with legal workers will hold down wages overall with zero risk of a crackdown.

amnesty bill. Can this ACTUALLY be the Democratic Party that use to support the American worker, or is it actually another faction of the neocon 'corporate america party'?? The dems are supporting and working with bush on 'immigration' while the whole damn country and world are going to hell; where are the priorities? Maybe it is time to get serious with a NEW POLITICAL PARTY that represents the needs and wishes of the MAJORITY of the people. harry reid is a pathetic disgrace to the Democratic Party. No one should wonder why IMPEACHMENT is off the table; cohorts in crime don't impeach one another.

victory and it will be back to the same old, same old. The border fence and security will run into "problems" and employers will continue to hire illiegals while border states continue to absorb the costs and legal citizens put out of work. The laws on the books now haven't been enforced; why will a new law be enforced?

Now's the time fix it and this bill makes sense.

"brown haters"?

regarding the "amnesty" bill should not have that shoved in their face. ;) I am sure they will say that it is for different reasons.

Those that feel that this bill is better than doing nothing to improve the current immigration mess will be called "corporate shills", Bush-bots, etc. (I was going to include terms like "freeper" and "RW-er", but they actually agree with our own anti-immigration crowd more than they do with us.)

Again, spoken like the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

But then again they use a phony pretense of 'anti-racism' to conceal their real agenda of glutting the American labor market in order to drive American wages down to Third World levels. H1B's, offshoring, and illegal immigration are all fronts of their war against working Americans. You can't support this bill and at the same time pretend to be any kind of populist.

What you are doing is putting ethnic identity politics ahead of the bread and butter interests of working Americans and siding with cheap labor business interests to do so. You can't base a politically viable left on identity politics. You can only base a majority party on addressing people's real bread and butter economic interests. Now either the left will do it or the populist right will do it. And if the populist right does it the GOP could quite well pull victory from the jaws of defeat in 2008.

Have you noticed that illegals are driving working poor Blacks out of the job market ? Who do you think worked in Tyson Foods before the illegals did ? Who do you think held the jobs illegals do now ? In California this zero sum socioeconomic competition between Blacks and illegals has become violently hostile. It is just like the Black-Irish rivalry of the mid 19th century. Or did you think that all dark skinned people are brothers and sisters ?

for the exploited poor who have nothing to offer but menial labor. It is designed to assure a continuing supply of low cost workers.

The hero of this fight is Sen. Byron Dorgan (Democrat of North Dakota) who crafted and got passed (by one vote)an amendment that sunsets the "guest-servitude" provision after five years. This was declared a "poison pill" by the corporate sponsors.

(It all goes back to NAFTA, but that's another story.)

I am sure that he would not contend that there is not much more to the bill than that, but he and others are the ones who have insisted on "legalization" being a part of the bill, if it was going to get his support. That provision is not a Repub idea, since they would prefer that the illegal immigrants stay here illegally. They have less rights and are easier to control that way.

... that is at the direct expense of working and working poor Americans.

Is that a new form of insult? I hadn't heard that one before.

Is that when you show compassion for one really downtrodden group, but don't consider the impact on another less downtrodden group? One must learn to be circumspect with their compassion expressions, I suppose.

would be returned to the floor of the Senate for debate.

If * vetoes a bill, it stays dead.

If the Senate kills a bill, and * wants it, is brought back to life.

This is WRONG.

E-mail and CALL your senators and Sen. Reid TODAY.

The Senate bill number is 1348.

and force a vote. At least a majority in the Senate support moving ahead and getting something done on immigration.

Just so happens that most of the Dems are on the same side as Chimpy this time while most of the Repukes are calling Chimpy names and such. I actually heard a right wing hate radio jock mocking his "simpleton" language and "dumbya" demeanor this morning...like we do routinely on DU. Strange bedfellows...

... your post implies RATHER BLATANTLY that you would rather make * look bad.

Congress' job is not to fuck with the Idiot. They are there to help run the god damned country. They should only be fucking with the Idiot when and because it is necessary for the good of the country (which in Idiot's case would admittedly be most of the time; but that's another topic).

to represent the best interests of the American voter. The majority of Americans are against this bill. It is not in the best interests of the American worker.

These are the same congressmen that thought free trade would be good for the American voter - and we all know how well that has worked out for everyone involved.

These are the same ones that told us allowing manufacturing to move offshore would be a good thing. We would all be in "service" jobs. These are the same congressmen who have gone along with moving any job possible offshore. They have even passed bills that subsidize the corporations for doing it, better known as corporate welfare.

These are the same congressmen that didn't raise minimum wage for 10 years. In the same 10 years, CEOs pay skyrocketed. Did they do anything about that - No.

This trend has persisted during both republican and democratic administrations.

These congressmen have lost touch with the voter and the American worker. It is no wonder that the polls show that fewer Americans approve of them than of Bush.

Neither the original poster nor myself made any comment on the merits of this particular bill. The OP's assertion is that the bill should be opposed to deprive Bush of a success. Not because the bill is wrong, or because it goes against the wishes of the public, but for no other reason than that passing it would be a victory for Bush.

I disagree. I believe the Congress should pass or not pass this and every other bill on the merits of the bill itself regardless of how it makes the president appear.

I happen to believe that this particular bill is a mish-mash. It has all the stereotypically worst attributes of having been designed by committee. In the end I don't really see where it solves a damn thing for anybody. I oppose this bill for that reason.

Most Americans Back Stalled Senate Immigration Bill, Poll Shows

By Heidi Przybyla

June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Most Americans support central elements of the legislation overhauling U.S. immigration laws the Senate shelved last week after it failed to gain sufficient support from lawmakers.

A new Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll shows that at least a plurality of Americans backs the two most contentious provisions of the bill, a proposal to offer 12 million undocumented immigrants a path to citizenship and the creation of a guest- worker program. Of a third provision -- a point system for immigrants based on professional qualifications -- many say they don't have enough information to have an opinion.

Moreover, most of those surveyed appear to reject one of the central arguments deployed by the bill's opponents: The poll found that less than a third of all respondents, including Republicans, believe illegal immigrants take jobs away from Americans who need them.

Still, analysts say opponents have an impact that is disproportionate to their numbers because of the intensity of their feelings and capacity to organize.

``For a minority of people, immigration is the most important issue, and they are the ones who are defining the debate with volatile rhetoric and their activism,'' says Nathan Gonzales, a political editor at the Rothenberg Political Report, a nonpartisan Washington newsletter.

<SNIP>

As the Rasmussen poll shows, opponents of this bill are twice the number of supporters of this bill. So how does the MSM come up with the lie that most Americans support this bill ?

Well, if you ask people to choose between marching illegals out at bayonet point and legalization, people say 'legalization'. The MSM twists this say that this means people support this bill. That is a classic definition of a half truth. Using a whole fact to tell a whole lie.

What that statement leaves out is that the American people define 'immigration reform' as border security. They couldn't care less about legalization. That really is not a priority of theirs. What is a priority is bringing order to chaos and enforcing the rule of law. In fact, that is the only priority. And only 16% of the American people believe that this bill will secure the border. Nearly 50% believe it will make border security worse by handing the forces of lawlessness and cheap labor a massive win.

So why does the MSM lie about where the American people stand on this ? Because they have their own free trade, globalization, open borders agenda. Problem is, in the age of the blog and the online forum people can see with their own eyes that the same common sense socioeconomic self interest that makes freepers oppose this bill makes us oppose this bill. The MSM flatly no longer has the power to frame the parameters of political debate.

It is about flooding the country with cheap labor, with illegals to destroy the bargaining power of working class people, and with H1b's to destroy the bargaining power of professionals.

The country is already "flooded" with cheap labor, only now 12 million of them have no rights making it easier for employers to manipulate them. Doing nothing is not going to cause them to go away or to stop the flow of immigrants into the country. It is just going to make sure that most of them are illegal and easy to exploit.

We could crack down on the border and on employers, but we haven't and I see no reason to believe that we will if this bill fails. Why would the current or any Repub administration be expected to do that? They do what is best for corporations. No Democratic administration has ever done either of those actions either. That is why Kennedy and Dean support this bill. It shows compassion and a Dem president is not going to propose something harsher on immigrants than a Repub proposed.

It is about populist vs oligarch.

The oligarch agenda in both parties supports this bill. The populist agenda in both parties is opposed. American workers and taxpayers are overwhelmingly opposed because they have no stake in either cheap labor or becoming Mexico's social safety net. Bush's position against border security happens to be ferociously opposed by most of his party. McCain's candidacy is going down in flames because of his support of this bill. I happen to be of the unique opinion that sometimes the American people win and the oligarchs lose.

Passing this bill will turn a 12 million problem into a 30 million problem as it becomes obvious that the oligarchs are powerful enough to impose their open borders agenda on the American people.

I view them as true liberals, even when I don't agree with them on occasion. My point was that no president of either party is going to do anything substantial regarding border security or sanctioning employers, unless they are forced/tricked into doing it as a part of a larger settlement.

Not passing this bill is not going to keep the 12 million problem from getting any bigger either. I don't know where you came up with 30 million, but how about this - not doing anything will make this into a 40 million problem as employers continue to exploit immigrants with no rights.

... on the power of the American people to make their will felt ? You are aware, aren't you that two-thirds of the American people demand security first ? Isn't that why Reid's approval rating is even lower right now than Bush's ? Don't you think that is going to be something the American people will demand of their next president ?

There is no reason whatsoever why border security should be made subject to any 'larger settlement'. As far as the American people are concerned, it is what comes first before amnesty is even considered. It is THE priority. The only one that matters to them. They really don't care about 'legalization' or providing business with cheap labor. They oppose this bill because they know that the oligarchs really have no intention of securing the border, whatever they promise and if legalization happens they will be stuck with the massive social welfare bill of being Mexico's safety net. That is why even if this monstrosity of a bill passes the Senate it will die in the House. Sometimes democracy works.

to make border security the priority, good luck. I hope that you are a better predictor of the future than I am.

I don't see how my support for immigration reform (something that is supported by Kennedy and Dean) makes me a defeatist. I think that K & D realize that this is a good package to prod the administration to something now about border security rather than continue the status quo of the last 20 years.

... have any intention whatsoever of doing something so adverse to their interests as stanching the flow of cheap labor. This administration will never secure the border.

This bill is as helpful as putting out a fire with aviation fuel. It will be a clear defeat for populist forces in America. It will be a clear victory for those foolish enough to believe that a majority left can be based on ethnic identity politics that are destructive of the economic interests of most Americans.

McCain is in trouble with Republicans. Yet that is the party of oligarchs ... so what gives?

A plurality (at least) of the public supports sweeping immigration reform and the key elements of this bill. Perhaps we are indeed a "nation of oligarchs" :shrug: http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

... they would have done so already. They don't need an amnesty to do that. There is no 'quid pro quo' whatsoever.

What this bill amounts to is amnesty up front in exchange for a 'promise' to secure the border 'sometime'. The American people are smarter than that. They want to see the border security upfront. They know that if the oligarchs are only 'promising' to spend money on border security as part of amnesty that obviously border security isn't something the oligarchs really want or intend to do.

Didn't NAFTA prove that ?

Don't politicians of both parties work for the same lobbyists ?

The American people know this and are demanding border enforcement up front because they know their politicians will sell them out to cheap labor business interests and break all enforcement 'promises'.

We need to "put together" a truly workable bill and, IMO, we are far from there yet. :shrug:

I think it's important that the Dems do something on immigration. This bill is far from ideal but it does close the borders - a GOP Achilles heel if exploited properly - and is a step toward a pathway to citizenship albeit tantamount to jumping through a flaming ring of fire.

we will lose all Independent support in '08, and probably the White House and some Congressional seats as well. The American public does not want this bill passed, at least in it's current form, and doesn't trust Congress to really tighten up the border. Despite all the good intentions, as far as I can tell, it's more loopholes than enforcement.

and you can bet any republican senator who lends their vote to passage, will not be up for re election in 2008 either.

Bush is pushing an, 'I'll screw you if do--or-- I'll screw you if you don't, pass this bill', and has the media in prime time setting the stage. This is some Rovian/Machiavellian, all the way up with a red hot poker, politics.

If the democrats in force join a few 'safe seat' republicans and pass this bill, it will be used to maximum advantage illustrating democrats not representing the majority of public opinion. If the democrats kill the bill it allows the possible 5-10 percent shift of the latino vote.

Bush as a lame duck could care less of his ratings at this point. Now, he is framing the agenda with lose/lose situations for the mandated democrats, and winning the ultimate decisions. War funding (folded), refusing subpoenas (successful), executive privilege (unchallenged), now immigration (revived).

... the task of fighting for working Americans ? Because it is too politically correct to seem 'xenophobic' or 'nativist' or 'anti-immigrant' ?

But apparently the Democratic party can. Left hand of the ocrporate party in power or the right hand of the corporate party in power. Seems to be the choices we have when it comes to voting time.

:grr:

already established ties within our communities. Further, there's no need to rush "a crappy" bill through now. Hell, I don't know where Kennedy or Reid's heads are at but I fear that they may be with those of our corporate masters. :(

I don't think it's a left-right issue either. I think it's a class issue, with an element of undermining society added in.

Federal assistance programs for all types of assistance keep getting cut, this puts a heavier strain on states. A heavy influx of immigrants takes time to become integrated into a society, and that's a stressor.

Several yars ago I worked in an office, and the cleaning crew that came in at the end of the day was largely comprised of Spanish speaking recent immigrants. Likely illegal, possibly not. Over the course of several months I did notice improved English among them, so I know they were trying to integrate at least to some degree into the society they were living in.

It isn't immigrants I blame, it's the powerful interests who exploit. If we as a nation started pushing hard against the corporate executives, heavily fining, and imprisoning them for hiring illegal immigrants, much of the problem would solve itself, since CEOs don't like going to prison any more than any one else. The down side of that approach, which I do largely support, is that then it becomes easy for business to discriminate against Latinos, whether native born US citizens, legal immigrants, or illegal immigrants.

I don't really have a good answer.

On the cynical hand, from my POV, it looks likely the problem will solve itself sometime in the next ten years or so, as the US collapses, and there is no longer any real desirability to live here.

for the people already here. I hate the whole "nativist" argument, it is stealth racism.....I don't care if Bush gets credit or not, it is always better to do the right thing morally than politically........If we happen to side with a bill Bush likes and it is the right thing to do, then for once we as Americans are all on the same page of music........

Yep. Looks like the Dem leadership is working tirelessly to help Bush get this done.