This message goes out to all the third-party splinterists.

Study arithmetic.

And then game theory.

You're welcome.

Hey, that'd work! Every Democrat unhappy that the Democratic Party isn't far enough to the left, jump to the Green Party at the same time that every Republican unhappy that the Republican Party isn't far enough to the right jumps to, say, the Constitution Party or something. That could work. ... er ... sorta.

Stand up for what you belive in.
Hold strong to your ideals.
Demand that those who would represent you share your values.
Refuse to surrender your virtue just because someone claims he will respect you in the morning.
Do not judge those of us who adhere to these guidelines.

And math don't lie.

And gets us President Romney.

If you think I'm wrong, try getting a Republican to vote for her.

Quite a few Nader voters have demonstrated that they are unrealistic purists who simply won't vote for any Democrat who's to the right of Noam Chomsky. The only way to win over those voters would be to nominate someone who'd lose worse than McGovern did.

Therefore, since those people on the left have chosen to make themselves irrelevant to the political process, the hell with them. The only place to go looking for votes is on the right. Maybe the Democrats can peel away a few Gerry-Ford-type Republicans and scrape together a plurality that way.

I'm not advocating this course. I voted for Kucinich in 2004. In the 2008 primaries, I'm pretty much an anyone-but-Hillary voter. Still, I think the Nader supporters should recognize that practical politicians aren't going to bend heaven and earth to woo a small group that's demonstrated it's very hard to woo.

Naderites have been saying since 2000, or maybe since 1999, that the correct response to their insurgency is for mainstream Democratic politicians to lurch to the left, i.e., "adopt Nader's agenda". Guess what, kids? It hasn't happened. Nor will it.

Therefore, those of us on the left who are frustrated by the desertion of some progressives will continue to be very bitter about it. And we will continue to call you names. But you shouldn't worry about being called names, any more than you should worry about your culpability in helping to elect murderous Republican regimes -- after all, you still have your ideological purity.

I've never understood the idea expressed by 3rd party people that voting 3rd party would drive the political party they were voting against in their direction. The political naivete of this is.... kind of mind numbing. Party's like the Greens have done nothing but make themselves irrelevant. The saddest thing is that Nader and the Greens actually had some political capital back in 2000. If he had publicly endorsed Gore, then they would have had something - a seat, (ok, maybe only a stool), at the table. Instead they threw it all away. They kept their ideological purity and they gave... the rest of us GW Bush.

:(

Nowhere is it written that the USA Empire must stand forever.

Don't leave. The abuser will someday change. Better the devil in your home than the devil next door.


Note: :sarcasm: Not intended to make light of spousal abuse.

The analogy doesn't fit. You are the party.

is the "party above principle" message non-Hillary supporters are being beaten over the head with. The DLCers have already adopted Corporatism from the republiks, are they now adopting Republik blind obedience strategy, too?

it's self abuse?

Or, don't I get it?

That was cute and not at all convincing and I'm a lifetime Democratic voter.

People have to take responsibility for what their own party does. It probably starts by convincing people that your issues are important, enough that they vote in a primary candidate that represents those issues, and one that can win. This is up to all of us.

Then it would have been like having Carlos back.These kind of threads just aren't the same without him.

Seems to be a trend.That's part of the problem. :shrug:

It is sickening, the "Do as you are ordered, or else" mentality that some people have. When did Democrats become so undemocratic?

Oh, sorry, I forgot. No discussion, no challenge, no questions. I will remember, please don't beat me!

It's like, 2+3 ALWAYS =5, and there's no room for any other point of view -- just goose-step right in line, it's 5, 5, 5, all the time, every time... And the sheep just buy into it without question. How dare anybody suggest it might be 4.9, oh NOOoooo...! The 5-ists own the media. "You can count it on one hand," they say -- but who decided a thumb is a finger? Huh? Ever think of that? Huh??

Who does Math think it is? Is this not a democracy?!? :hide:

(for extremely large values of 2)



http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/science/60f5/

I'm a geek. Math rocks.

Here's an idea: why don't you stop farting higher than your butt and actually produce the math you are blathering about. I would be more than happy to check your work for logical and procedural errors.

Fewer Dem Votes lead to Reep victories.

Like it or not, the Presidential election is binary. Reep or Dem. And it will not be any different next November. You have many choices in how to behave, but the outcome for the nation, and the world, is R or D.

No need to discuss, just do what we say, you fucking peasants. We know what's good for you. Besides, what other choice do you have?

Did that accurately sum it up for you?

History taught me that appeasement never works.
If the "moderates" won't give anything to the left in exchange for our vote , why the hell should we support them? Why would we vote against our own interests?
Now if you have a point to make, then do so and quit being so mysterious, it's really irritating.


Gotta give something to get something.

Quid Pro Quo, Clarise.

They would rather deal in meaningless abstracts than study what happens in the real world of interactions between people. Math is a discipline that is cold and useless in studing human nature. Those that embrace math over social sciences are generally cold humorless and lacking in any sort of empathy for their fellow humans. Not what you would call a poeple person, kind of like you.

You might very well change the nature of democracy in America.

You sophistry has become tiresome and your smarmy holier than thou attitude is irritating. I bet it wins you alot of friends. Good night.

Voting naively for the lesser evil means it will eventually become indistinguishable from the greater evil, because they have to do nothing to get your vote. If everyone behaves like you suggest, your party will never do anything that you want.

What are your priorities?

Do you want the Democrats to end the war?

Then you should make this important to them. Remember, we are a majority.

To get Democrats elected.

Ending the war doesn't matter.
Reining in the criminals and traitors in the White House doesn't matter.
Having Congress actually be part of the checks and balance system doesn't matter.

All that matters is to get Democrats elected, no matter what. In short, nothing but form and to Hell with substance.

And I have been looking for years for a succinct response to the "vote for the lesser of two evils" meme. You have provided one in your post. I hope you don't mind if I shamelessly steal it. :hi:

Thank you.

Bill

This is still America. Study that.

Thanks for your support.

There is a border fence around America, and the signs read "no arithmetic or game theory allowed". I am sorry that I forgot that.

Its called some people live by principles. To some others, everything is sport.

Isn't that more important than winning? Being "pure"? EVen if it also means being "impotent?"

:sarcasm:

Bake

its inevidible you will get fleeced. If all Democrats cave to the wishes of the DLC minority, then in no time there will only be two corporatist parties to chose bewteen (if we haven't already reached that point). At some point, a "no-more" line gets crossed. We are there. The 'pukes are weakened by an imbecile leader, scandal, and an uninspiring field of candidates. There is no better time to take back the Democratic Party.

:popcorn:

Or politics.

in the primaries...if you have a primary that counts (unlike Florida). Otherwise, vote against the minority candidate whenever you can. Make the party's candidate EARN your vote. Quid pro quo baby - if Hillary wants the Democratic base's vote, she should have to deliver... and she's not even close right now.

And if you're going to change the party by voting, you need large numbers of other voters agreeing with you. What if they don't?

I understand having principles, but the primaries are when you can try to put emphasis on certain aspects of the platform, but to think that not voting or voting 3rd party will cahnge anything is silly.

You want the left wingers vote you'd better do something to earn it. They don't owe the centrists ANYTHING; it is the centrist types who need the Left, not the other way around.

Try winning a national election by appealing only to pro-corporate independents and pissed off Republicans. Do the math on that one and let me know how it turns out.

"Try winning a national election by appealing only to pro-corporate independents and pissed off Republicans. Do the math on that one and let me know how it turns out."

That's a pretty fair description of how Bill Clinton won twice. You remember Bill Clinton? NAFTA? welfare reform? all those things that Nader loves to bring up to show that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans? Yeah, that Bill Clinton.

As someone on the left wing of the Democratic Party, I really wish that our natural allies would help us get progressives nominated, instead of making themselves effectively irrelevant to the electoral process. I say "irrelevant" because, in the general election, there is no practical difference between voting for Nader and staying home on Election Day.

Nor or welfare reform. If he had he'd have lost.

A good idea in theory - and a Sun Tzu tactic. I respect the sentiment, but it's not the proper time nor place.

That's what the elitists count on. They can (attempt to) manipulate us because its always costly for us to turn the tables on them and quit the game.

Pukes are weakened and on the ropes...looking for a middle ground. Dems can't win without the Left. Now is EXACTLY the time and place to marginalize the Dem corporatists.

Please do.

Maybe a judge or two are up in that cycle.

I was saying that five minutes after a Democratic president is sworn in on January 20, 2009, I'm going to seriously think about joining or supporting a third party.

Not a minute before.

Why join or support a 3rd party after that? To have a counterweight to the corporate -- Republican lite -- wing of the Democratic party, which will be rolling in corporate contributions since it may hold presidency and two houses of Congress.

All prefaced with a big IF, of course. Winning in 2008 is the number one goal.

Nominate an actual fucking Democrat in 2008.

Just because our definition of what a Democrat is doesn't coincide with your ideological purity, that doesn't mean we haven't been nominating Democrats.

Would nominating LaRouche suit you better? With this attitude, I think it actually might.